I'm reading the Bible--and it's awesome

[brandtryan]

Clay Blair. Hitler's U-Boat War (http://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-U-Boat-War-Hunters-1939-1942/dp/0394588398)

Freaking Volume I can support my bed off the floor. Well, that, and Blair's Silent Victory. (http://www.amazon.com/Silent-Victory-Submarine-Against-Japan/dp/155750217X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1265724242&sr=1-1)

Deeply recommended reading for all U-Boat drivers, past and present!

[Gotmilk]

Thanks,

Now i have to read that bible too.

[mookiemookie]

Blair is great. Try "Wolfpacks at War" by Showell and "Steel Boats, Iron Hearts" by Goebbler for a more humanized account of the war.

[COWBOY10]

:) Thanks for that, Some more books to look for and add to an already creaking book shelf :yeah:

[brandtryan]

Thanks,

Now i have to read that bible too.

hehe, sorry. Man is he comprehensive. I feel like I'm going through submarine school, waiting for my first post.

[FIREWALL]

Off I go again to Barnes & Noble. :up:

[sharkbit]

Off I go again to Barnes & Noble. :up:

Too expensive. Look around on Amazon or e-bay.
I buy 99% of my books from one of those sites. New ones are even cheaper than B&N.

Don't be afraid to try used books. A lot of the books are listed as Used-Very Good Condition. When I've received them, they look as good as new.

:)

[mookiemookie]

Don't be afraid to try used books. A lot of the books are listed as Used-Very Good Condition. When I've received them, they look as good as new.

:)

Absolutely. I've yet to get a bad book doing it this way. Saves a ton of money too.

[Rip]

Too expensive. Look around on Amazon or e-bay.
I buy 99% of my books from one of those sites. New ones are even cheaper than B&N.

Don't be afraid to try used books. A lot of the books are listed as Used-Very Good Condition. When I've received them, they look as good as new.

:)

Get them from Amazon and BE SURE TO USE THE SUBSIM LINK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am currently reading Memoirs Ten Years and Twenty Days.

[Garion]

Heheh I got a used version of this for Xmas, reading it now.

O'L Doughnuts had his work cut out for him fighting the beaurocracy. I was also surprised at the Number of and versions of Type 2 Ducks there were.

Cheers

Garion

[COWBOY10]

Off I go again to Barnes & Noble. :up:


mmmmmmm Barnes and Noble, I popped into the Baltimore one when I was over in states for Hols, Damn it was expensive.



NOT the prices you understand, But the amount I spent and the Excess baggage fare to bring them all back home :)

God I love this Shop, I just wish they had them over here in UK, the only thing that came close was Borders, and sadly that closed down just after xmas.

[Platapus]

I am currently reading Memoirs Ten Years and Twenty Days.

I just got that book and am reading it also. :up:

[frau kaleun]

mmmmmmm Barnes and Noble, I popped into the Baltimore one when I was over in states for Hols, Damn it was expensive.

NOT the prices you understand, But the amount I spent and the Excess baggage fare to bring them all back home :)

God I love this Shop, I just wish they had them over here in UK, the only thing that came close was Borders, and sadly that closed down just after xmas.

Our local Borders also shut down last year. I wonder, did the whole chain go out of business?

We had a Barnes & Noble not far from where I work, but they shut down when a new one opened a couple exits up the highway in a newer and shinier shopping complex. I don't get over in that area much so I hardly ever see the inside of a bookstore any more (other than Half Price Books, which is still close by).

Of course it's saved me a ton of money since I'm not walking in there and buying things on impulse every month or so. And since I usually made a stop at the Best Buy they were next door to, the savings are even better. :O:

Now I just buy things on impulse from Amazon, which is at least a little cheaper.

[Sailor Steve]

I frequent my local bookstores, but mostly I buy from Abe http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=blair&sts=t&tn=hitler%27s+u-boat+war&x=84&y=15

I see from the first link that Amazon has some good prices used.

[Jimbuna]

Get them from Amazon and BE SURE TO USE THE SUBSIM LINK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




Agreed, I always do.....very gratifying to do your bit for the community...regardless of your dwindling bank balance :DL

[Rip]

Heheh I got a used version of this for Xmas, reading it now.

O'L Doughnuts had his work cut out for him fighting the beaurocracy. I was also surprised at the Number of and versions of Type 2 Ducks there were.

Cheers

Garion

OK I am only on Chapter five, don't spoil the ending. :D

[TarJak]

OK I am only on Chapter five, don't spoil the ending. :D
Watch out for the twist nrear the end.:woot:

[Sailor Steve]

The butler did it.

[Randomizer]

The butler did it.
Here's me thinking it was Admiral Horton in the pond with the Hedgehog.

[Steeltrap]

Here's me thinking it was Admiral Horton in the pond with the Hedgehog.

Not Colonel Mustard?

[LiveGoat]

Almost halfway through the first volume. The appendices alone are worth the price of the books. Am tempted to get Blair's book on the U.S. subs but will have to hold off. I've spent enough money this month as it is.

[frau kaleun]

Not Colonel Mustard?

It was Rosebud, in the snow, with a sled. :O:

[Jimbuna]

They all die at the end.

[brandtryan]

Too expensive. Look around on Amazon or e-bay.
I buy 99% of my books from one of those sites. New ones are even cheaper than B&N.

Don't be afraid to try used books. A lot of the books are listed as Used-Very Good Condition. When I've received them, they look as good as new.

:)

I had to get mine used--it looks brand new though. I think it's out of print. I haven't ordered Volume II yet though, "The Hunted". I'll wait until the add-on for years 1943 to 1945 for SHV!

[brandtryan]

Almost halfway through the first volume. The appendices alone are worth the price of the books. Am tempted to get Blair's book on the U.S. subs but will have to hold off. I've spent enough money this month as it is.

Excellent book--though I must admit--only made it half way throught before wanting to switch to ATO, and thus buy those books instead.

If I were to review these books with a one-liner--it would be:

"These books will undoubtedly become the foundation for the Star Trek database on submarine warfare during WWII in the 20th Centry."

[brandtryan]

Not providing any evidence, nor taking a position--but thought this would be a good discussion away from dev issues of game:

From forward page XIII of Clay Blair's Hitler's U-Boat War: The Hunters, 1939-1942

"The myths notwithstanding, only a tiny percentage of Allied merchant ships actually fell victim to U-boats. Ninety-nine percent of all Allied merchant ships in the transatlantic convoys reached assigned destinations." (Bold mine)

This may be known to all you guys--but it surprised the he** out of me.

[mookiemookie]

I've always wanted to know what that percentage was counting only the years pre-1943.

[SteamWake]

Im 99% sure thats true :salute:

[bigboywooly]

Is that 99% for the whole war
Or just 39 - 42 :hmmm:

After 43 convoys increased in frequency for the build up of invasions and the uboat threat was reduced significantly by then so if that figure is for the whole war would be about right

wonder if there any % year by year out there somwhere

[Sailor Steve]

Uboat.net has a month-by-month page showing losses.
http://www.uboat.net/allies/merchants/losses_year.html

The total number of ships (including warships) hit by uboats was 2791, and that includes ships that were torpedoed or shelled but survived.
http://www.uboat.net/allies/merchants/index.html

Since the US alone built more than 2700 Liberty ships in just two years, it would seem that Germany's best chance to win the Battle of the Atlantic was in 1940. After that it was all downhill for them.

The Battle Of The Atlantic, by Terry Hughes and John Costello, has month-by-month charts showing Allied shipping at sea, number of ships and tonnage sunk, and u-boats lost.

[ryanglavin]

Not to beat a dead horse, but if Hitler had produced U-boats by the hundreds in 1939 and 1940, we would no longer be the united states of america.

[Brag]

Not to beat a dead horse, but if Hitler had produced U-boats by the hundreds in 1939 and 1940, we would no longer be the united states of america.

How could have Germany threatened the existence of the U.S?

Hiler never even dreamed of it.

[Bilge_Rat]

I have the 2 volumes by Blair and have read or skimmed over most of it. Very well researched and detailed, but more of a reference book than an enjoyable read. I enjoyed his book on the Pacific war better.

What he says is true and the evidence is there to back it up. Most allied ships that sailed in a convoy got through unscathed. Most of the U-Boat kills were against single ships or stragglers from a convoy.

Yes, there were some spectacular kills against convoys even up to early 43, but this was not the norm. The best times was in late 40, the so called "Easy Times" when U-Boats could sail from France, the UK was desperately short of destroyers and the RCN crews were very green. Already by the spring of 41, the situation was changing in favour of the Allies.

[Sailor Steve]

Not to beat a dead horse, but if Hitler had produced U-boats by the hundreds in 1939 and 1940, we would no longer be the united states of america.

That's a bit of an exaggeration, to say the least. Even if Britain had fallen, the United States and Canada are too far away for Germany to even think about trying to attack, and our manufacturing base was far too large for even a Europe united under Hitler to counter. When Japan attacked us in 1941, they had eight fleet-type aircraft carriers, and the US had six. In 1945 Japan had two, and the United states had 40.

Between 1940 and 1945 Mitsubishi and Nakajima built 10,938 Zero fighters. In the three years between 1942 and 1945, Grumman built 12,275 F6F Hellcats.

In the two years from 1943 to 1945 Henry J. Kaiser produced 2700 Liberty ships.

Do you really think even Germany and Japan combined could have won an offensive war against the United States, Canada and the South American nations? We may not have been able to fight them on their ground, but we would certainly not "all be speaking German" today, as the old saying goes.

[Bilge_Rat]

And the hypothetical situation of Donitz fielding 300 U-Boats in sept. 39, which is often raised, depends on a static view of history where you can change only one variable. If the Germans had been producing subs by the hundreds in 36-39, UK, France and the USA would have responded by building up their destroyer fleets as a counter.

[Platapus]

Not to beat a dead horse, but if Hitler had produced U-boats by the hundreds in 1939 and 1940, we would no longer be the united states of america.


Hardly. There might no longer be an England and I am sure there would be a downside to that. :D

But a flock of Uboats would not bring the United States down. :nope:

[tater]

Not to beat a dead horse, but if Hitler had produced U-boats by the hundreds in 1939 and 1940, we would no longer be the united states of america.

ROFL.

No. Not even close.

You need to also remember that Germany was limited in so very many ways in terms of what she could build. Every scrap of metal used in a ship or boat was one not used in a tank or truck. They still used HORSES as prime movers, lol. Horses!

Maybe they should have built frigates (sailing ships) and started taking prizes instead. Or they could have really helped their u-boat war and thrown all the radios over the side. Playing chatty Cathy on the radio was their biggest failure.

[Platapus]

"The myths notwithstanding, only a tiny percentage of Allied merchant ships actually fell victim to U-boats. Ninety-nine percent of all Allied merchant ships in the transatlantic convoys reached assigned destinations." (Bold mine)



This use of percentages can be misleading. The high percentage has a lot more to do with the production than the efficiency of sinkings.

It could be said that we simply built more cargo ships faster than the Germans could sink them.

The causality rate (as a percentage of total population) of the Merchant Marine during WWII was the highest of all the US military losses

http://www.usmm.org/casualty.html

Service number serving War /Dead/ Percent / Ratio
Merchant Marine 243,000* 9,521** 3.90% 1 in 26
Marines 669,108 19,733 2.94% 1 in 34
Army 11,268,000 234,874 2.08% 1 in 48
Navy 4,183,466 36,958 0.88% 1 in 114
Coast Guard 242,093 574 0.24% 1 in 421

[tater]

The US built nearly 800 DEs or DDs during the war.

We built around 140 aircraft carriers.

140!

Orders to each u-boat would have to be: "On this patrol please sink 3 merchant ships, and at least one warship—preferably 2—or don't bother coming home."

[frau kaleun]

The US built nearly 800 DEs or DDs during the war.

We built around 140 aircraft carriers.

140!

Orders to each u-boat would have to be: "On this patrol please sink 3 merchant ships, and at least one warship—preferably 2—or don't bother coming home."

When the reality by late 1943 was more like "Just come home, don't worry so much about sinking any ships."

Was watching "Hitler's Lost Sub" (IIRC) and they quoted one surviving kommandant saying how remarkable it was to hear that from his own commanding officer when he started patrols later in the war, since he remembered the "Happy Times" all too well.

[COWBOY10]

Our local Borders also shut down last year. I wonder, did the whole chain go out of business?


Sadly I believe So, Hard to believe a large Book chain going out of Business, Hell I must have spent several years wages in there myself. :)




http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/smartdark/quote.gif (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1262774)

[Bilge_Rat]

On the problems Germany had with supplies of raw materials, I read recently that starting in fall 41, because of the demands of the Ostfront, the amount of fuel going to the U-Boat fleet was rationed and some U-boats were going to sea without their full fuel load.

This is mentioned in vol.1 of Glantz's Stalingrad trilogy which came out last year. Does anyone have more info on this?

[Jimbuna]

On the problems Germany had with supplies of raw materials, I read recently that starting in fall 41, because of the demands of the Ostfront, the amount of fuel going to the U-Boat fleet was rationed and some U-boats were going to sea without their full fuel load.

This is mentioned in vol.1 of Glantz's Stalingrad trilogy which came out last year. Does anyone have more info on this?

p.s. - hmmm, looks like the thread I was posting to dissapeared and I wound up here instead? Not sure why, since it was a lot more interesting and pertinent than endless threads whining about Ubisoft.

Gas Shortage - Fuel Problems - World War 2 Germany

http://germanyinworldwar2.com/Germanfuelshortage.htm

[Rip]

Almost halfway through the first volume. The appendices alone are worth the price of the books. Am tempted to get Blair's book on the U.S. subs but will have to hold off. I've spent enough money this month as it is.

VERY GOOD. I always have it at arms reach when I play SH4. Damn I wish we all lived close so we could loan each other books.

[Rip]

Is that 99% for the whole war
Or just 39 - 42 :hmmm:

After 43 convoys increased in frequency for the build up of invasions and the uboat threat was reduced significantly by then so if that figure is for the whole war would be about right

wonder if there any % year by year out there somwhere

I am quite sure that is the entire war, which makes it much less surprising.

[tater]

Invading the Soviets was not optional, it was for oil (just as the japanese war was entirely about oil). The Germans tried to no avail to bring Turkey on board as an ally, which might have prevented them from having to invade the CCCP since it could provide a route to alternate oil. As it was they took all oil possible from Romania, and it was not enough. At the time, the US supplied something like 80% of world oil.

Even the Soviets imported oil from the US, though mostly refined stuff. Nearly 60% of Soviet avgas burned during the war was from the US.

[brandtryan]

just from documentaries, which are FAR from a record of historical accuracy, I have the impression that Hitler was going for Russia from day one--not for resources, but to expand the area for German people (forget the german phrase for this).

Cant deny though--the potential fuel resource of the Crimea.

[frau kaleun]

"Lebensraum" IIRC.

[ichso]

Better forget all of the conventional strategic and similar reasons to lead war when talking about nazi germany. Of course they had to make many strategic decisions but the *reasons* for their war was pure brains-down-the-toilette. That is, they thought themselves to be a 'superior race' and should eventually rule all other 'races' there where.

And yes, 'Lebensraum im Osten' (Living space in the east) is the commonly used phrased here. But this is also just one of those nazi euphemisms. Nobody needed any space there to live or do anything over there. And oil that would be found somewhere in the world would just fuel this meaningless war (or better say: war based on shizophrenia/madness/whatever). It was never any driving motive like it is in modern times. They could have easily imported all the oil they needed for civil purposes back then.

[mookiemookie]

Wonder what would have happened if they had succeeded in North Africa and had taken control of the Suez Canal and possibly the middle east.

[ichso]

Hm, maybe it would just have drawn out the end. But even with fuel they couldn't have matched the economic power of their enemies, namely the U.S, could they ? I don't know.

[tater]

Importing oil was not an option for nazi germany. Really.

Rumania was giving more oil than they even wanted to to Germany, and it was not enough, they had almost no strategic reserve. The invasion of Russia was entirely about oil, nothing else of substance.

When people have thrown about scenarios for Germany in the PTO (there was a group working on a campaign for Il-2 with that as a premise) the only plausible one involves Germany getting mid-east oil, perhaps by avoiding war entirely with the Soviets. A good point is made by Willmott in one of his books (Empires in the Balance, or the followup) that the best chance the Japanese had would have been to push into the Indian Ocean instead of the wasted sortie they made with the Kido Butai in the spring of '42. India was teetering on the edge politically, and the UK was in no position to do anything had Japan acted forcefully. A free, neutral (or friendly to Japan) India would have meant every possibility of an Axis link-up via the Eastern Med, and might have pushed Turkey to reconsider her neutrality.

[ichso]

But they needed the oil only for the war itself didn't they ?
So it wasn't the motivation behind the war.

[Jimbuna]

Wonder what would have happened if they had succeeded in North Africa and had taken control of the Suez Canal and possibly the middle east.

There'd be a lot more Brits walking around today with a Fez on their bonce :DL

[Diopos]

...
A free, neutral (or friendly to Japan) India would have meant every possibility of an Axis link-up via the Eastern Med, and might have pushed Turkey to reconsider her neutrality.

If Suez were controlled by the Axis the two absent (and neutral) local powers of the Med (Turkey and Spain) would start reconsidering their stance. Spain was already under a fasist regime and could easily form a "working relation" with Germany. Turkey would be terrified by the prospect of alienating herself to the victor of a second world war (after being on the losing side in WW1).

Great Jap-India-MidEast-"what if" there tater :up:
Maybe the Japs considered a India gamette to difficult to support as it requires to neutralize US presence in the Pacific first .......

[ryanglavin]

How could have Germany threatened the existence of the U.S?

Hiler never even dreamed of it.

I'm theoretically saying, once Germany defeated Britain, they'd just pound the U.S. into dust.

[Platapus]

OK I am only on Chapter five, don't spoil the ending. :D

I don't want to spoil the ending, but here is a hint

Many of us drive Japanese or German cars. :D

[frenema]

Not to beat a dead horse, but if Hitler had produced U-boats by the hundreds in 1939 and 1940, we would no longer be the united states of america.

But if you look at it the other way, if Hitler didn't build U-boats at all and spent all that material/fuel on more Panzers, Germany would have defeated Soviet Union and cold war would have ensued between them and US/UK.

[Platapus]

http://snltranscripts.jt.org/78/78jwhatif.phtml

We came very close to losing the whole thing.

[oscar19681]

That's a bit of an exaggeration, to say the least. Even if Britain had fallen, the United States and Canada are too far away for Germany to even think about trying to attack, and our manufacturing base was far too large for even a Europe united under Hitler to counter. When Japan attacked us in 1941, they had eight fleet-type aircraft carriers, and the US had six. In 1945 Japan had two, and the United states had 40.

Between 1940 and 1945 Mitsubishi and Nakajima built 10,938 Zero fighters. In the three years between 1942 and 1945, Grumman built 12,275 F6F Hellcats.

In the two years from 1943 to 1945 Henry J. Kaiser produced 2700 Liberty ships.

Do you really think even Germany and Japan combined could have won an offensive war against the United States, Canada and the South American nations? We may not have been able to fight them on their ground, but we would certainly not "all be speaking German" today, as the old saying goes.

Maybe hitler would not have been able to destroy the u.s and its allies. But D-day would have been a whole other ballgame without england.

[Lord Justice]

But if you look at it the other way, if Hitler didn't build U-boats at all and spent all that material/fuel on more Panzers, Germany would have defeated Soviet Union and cold war would have ensued between them and US/UK.Oh come come man, if there had been no Eastern Front, no A bomb, H, bomb, if waited to original plan 1942, waffle waffle, Sir, a good swig of brandy and sound verbal volley to a world map will perhaps suffice for now, :yep: yes? very well good day.

[Sailor Steve]

I'm theoretically saying, once Germany defeated Britain, they'd just pound the U.S. into dust.
How do you figure? Anybody can say anything, but that doesn't make it true. Please give evidence that could lead anyone to this conclusion.

[Highbury]

But D-day would have been a whole other ballgame without england.

Well that's just... obvious. D-Day was launched from England.

That is like saying the fighting in Italy would have been different if the Italians were Allies.... :doh:


:03:

[Leandros]

Well that's just... obvious. D-Day was launched from England.

That is like saying the fighting in Italy would have been different if the Italians were Allies.... :doh:


:03:
I'd turn it around and say it wouldn't have been a ballgame at all with only England.....:o.....

[Leandros]

Clay Blair. Hitler's U-Boat War (http://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-U-Boat-War-Hunters-1939-1942/dp/0394588398)

Freaking Volume I can support my bed off the floor. Well, that, and Blair's Silent Victory. (http://www.amazon.com/Silent-Victory-Submarine-Against-Japan/dp/155750217X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1265724242&sr=1-1)

Deeply recommended reading for all U-Boat drivers, past and present!
He's getting a lot of criticism for his conclusions on the Battle of the Atlantic. I tend to agree on his conclusions. The queston is how the Germans could achieve as much as they did with their initially meagre resources.

[mookiemookie]

I'm theoretically saying, once Germany defeated Britain, they'd just pound the U.S. into dust.

How? They had no naval fleet to match the U.S. So a land based invasion is out. Besides, where would they get the troops? Assuming they were still tied up in the East, they just did not have the divisions to fight a country the size of the U.S. and Russia at the same time. And even if they did, they didn't have the transport space to get them across the Atlantic. They had no airpower with the range to reach the U.S. The U-boats couldn't have done it alone - the U.S. had the ability to move materials overland and did not have to rely as much on sea lanes as the Brits did.

The U.S. would have either had to invade through Africa instead of using England as a jumping off point, or, they would have sued for peace. Considering the amount of planning, preparation and everything else that went into planning an invasion just across the English Channel, I think planning one across the entire Atlantic Ocean would have been logistically impossible at that point.

[Bilge_Rat]

He's getting a lot of criticism for his conclusions on the Battle of the Atlantic. I tend to agree on his conclusions. The queston is how the Germans could achieve as much as they did with their initially meagre resources.


I also agree with Blair. He is criticized because he challenged the common wisdom spread by Donitz in his memoirs and others that the U-boats came close to knocking England out of the war. However, it is hard to disagree with him, given his thorough research, including German archives. He is correct that the germans, given the meager resources given to the U-boat war, never became a serious threat.

This thread actually made me dust off my copy. I was re-reading about fall 41 to see if I could find anything more about fuel shortages, but did not find anything. I did find an interesting example which summarizes the German dilemna. In september 41, U-Boats savaged two convoys and sank thirty ships. In the same month, 1,000 ships sailed and 970, including 18 out of 20 convoys made it through unscathed.

re-reading Blair is also really putting me in the mood to go back to the Atlantic...

:ahoy: