World War II-era navigation system shutting down

[Platapus]

http://www.cnn.com/2010/TECH/02/08/loran.navigation.shutdown/index.html

In a series of small ceremonies, the U.S. Coast Guard on Monday afternoon will shut down Loran-C, a navigation and timing system that has guided mariners and aviators since World War II.

Even though it will save some bucks, I don't know if this is such a good idea. As the article points out, it is not a good idea to put all your navigation eggs in to one GPS basket. :nope:

[Task Force]

hmm... yea, what happens if the gps goes down... not good.

[Luckless]

hmm... yea, what happens if the gps goes down... not good.


Then people should use their backup navigation tools. If you can't safely navigate without GPS in the first place, you shouldn't be attempting to navigate in the first place.

[Task Force]

yea... Im sure they would have other nav tools... Compass, ect...

Oah... welcome to the forums.:up:

[Rip]

Aww crap. Can I erase all my Loran-C and NAVSAT knowledge from my head and make some more room newer stuff. I think I could still list all the stations although I would have to look up frequencies. :yep:

[Platapus]

It was a good simple system that worked. :salute:

[Snestorm]

A big problem there is that, all of the big powers are capable of downing each-others satelights. Loran Charlie may not be as modern, but is more reliable.

They seem to be intent on making a show of saving pennies, as many other programs are throwing dollars out the window.

[krashkart]

It was a good simple system that worked. :salute:

And if it works, keep it. :up:

Snestorm brings up a good point, too, in that the powers have anti-satellite capabilities. Was it China that blew a sat out of orbit with a high-powered laser some time back? Unable to recall presently. But, yeah, all it would take is a few well-aimed weapons to cripple GPS. I don't really know to what extent our military relies on GPS, but JDAMs would be obsolete in a hurry.

[Blood_splat]

That or a massive solar flare.

[GoldenRivet]

As the article points out, it is not a good idea to put all your navigation eggs in to one GPS basket. :nope:

100% agree

stupid GPS:D

[Rip]

Not to worry, we still have sextants!
:D

[Platapus]

I hope they are just turning off Loran and not destroying it. Then when (not if) out GPS gets put out, we can turn on Loran and atleast not bump into each other.

[Jimbuna]

Not to worry, we still have sextants!
:D

Don't forget your trusty compass :arrgh!:

[Oberon]

Bah, anyone knows that if you sail out of sight of land and birds then the monsters of the deep will get you. :know:

[razark]

Then people should use their backup navigation tools. If you can't safely navigate without GPS in the first place, you shouldn't be attempting to navigate in the first place.

But that would mean that people would need to know what they're doing! Can't expect people to actually know how to do things. If it can't be done with the push of a button, it's impossible.

[krashkart]

Bah, anyone knows that if you sail out of sight of land and birds then the monsters of the deep will get you. :know:

Remember not to sail too far, either. Ye falls off the edge of the Earth and lands in one of those Axis of Evil countries! :o

But that would mean that people would need to know what they're doing! Can't expect people to actually know how to do things. If it can't be done with the push of a button, it's impossible.

Betcha there would still be enough people around who know the ancient ways. Does the Air Force still shoot the stars from time to time? I remember my grandad telling me about how he did that when he was in. :ping:

[razark]

Betcha there would still be enough people around who know the ancient ways. Does the Air Force still shoot the stars from time to time? I remember my grandad telling me about how he did that when he was in. :ping:

Yeah, and some of us use slide rules instead of calculators. I decided that even though there was a more modern tool, I like the feel of using an older one. They were good enough to get us to the moon and back.

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_navigation:

The U.S. Air Force and U.S. Navy continued instructing military aviators on its use until 1997, because:

* it can be used independently of ground aids
* has global coverage
* cannot be jammed (although it can be obscured by clouds)
* does not give off any signals that could be detected by an enemy

The US Naval Academy announced that it was discontinuing its course on celestial navigation, considered to be one of its most demanding courses, from the formal curriculum in the spring of 1998 stating that a sextant is accurate to a three-mile (5 km) radius, while a satellite-linked computer can pinpoint a ship within 60 feet (18 m). Presently, midshipmen continue to learn to use the sextant, but instead of performing a tedious 22-step mathematical calculation to plot a ship's course, midshipmen feed the raw data into a computer.


Of course, the Apollo missions used star trackers and sextants to help guide them to the moon as well.

[Jimbuna]

Bah, anyone knows that if you sail out of sight of land and birds then the monsters of the deep will get you. :know:

Simply take plenty of batteries for the torch :DL

[Oberon]

Simply take plenty of batteries for the torch :DL

What do gun batteries have to do with torches? Everyone knows that sticks with fabric wrapped around the top dipped in pitch have everything to do with torches :O:

[Cohaagen]

I agree with the folks saying "cheerio" to LORAN. If you trust terrestrial nav above a system which floats entirely indifferent to just about every variable outside of the occasional position adjustment, more fool you. The commercial GPS systems are so good (despite statutory hobbling by the US military) that I really can't see how anyone could be nostalgic. In my own (limited) experience, I can't think of a single Peterhead, Broch, Irish Sea or Arbroath boat which doesn't use GPS as its primary navaid.

It's a bit like the passing of the sextant I think - nice to read about in a Hornblower novel, but an absolute arsehole to use from a pitching deck.

[krashkart]

Guess I hadn't thought about it from an applied perspective. Then again, I don't have that perspective at all, being landlocked. :hmmm:

[Platapus]

I agree with the folks saying "cheerio" to LORAN. If you trust terrestrial nav above a system which floats entirely indifferent to just about every variable outside of the occasional position adjustment, more fool you. The commercial GPS systems are so good (despite statutory hobbling by the US military) that I really can't see how anyone could be nostalgic. In my own (limited) experience, I can't think of a single Peterhead, Broch, Irish Sea or Arbroath boat which doesn't use GPS as its primary navaid.

It's a bit like the passing of the sextant I think - nice to read about in a Hornblower novel, but an absolute arsehole to use from a pitching deck.

The point is that GPS can be knocked out or otherwise interfered with in times of war. If there is no back up nav aids, this puts operations at risk.

I don't think anyone is saying that GPS should not be a primary navaid, but some are saying that GPS should not be the exclusive navaid.

[Cohaagen]

Right, so you're advocating the "survivability", a paranoid concept at best - this is presuming World War III, yeah? - of a terrestrial system over something floating in space? In that scenario (and it's the only credible or likely one) it's a question of which one outlasts the other by minutes or seconds.

The main problem with GPS is not damage from the - count them - three nations who possess the capability to disrupt them, but from the US military circumscribing civilian use in the event of a major conflict - as they have every right to do. I do know that there has supposedly been a civilian-developed LORAN follow-up in the works for the last two decades or so, but I haven't heard anything more on the matter. And as has been mentioned, it is a nightmare to deal with.

Fact remains (in the UK at least), anyone deemed competent enough to master a civil vessel is also bright enough to learn manual navigation. That is what keeps the 'droggies in business.

[razark]

Right, so you're advocating the "survivability", a paranoid concept at best - this is presuming World War III, yeah? - of a terrestrial system over something floating in space? In that scenario (and it's the only credible or likely one) it's a question of which one outlasts the other by minutes or seconds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kessler_syndrome

It's not just war, natural events could render satellites useless. Not saying it's likely, just good to have a backup, just in case.

[Jimbuna]

The point is that GPS can be knocked out or otherwise interfered with in times of war. If there is no back up nav aids, this puts operations at risk.

I don't think anyone is saying that GPS should not be a primary navaid, but some are saying that GPS should not be the exclusive navaid.

Quite....a total dependancy on one system can only lead to problems in the future.

[Snestorm]

Don't forget your trusty compass :arrgh!:

Can Dead Men Vote Twice? At Elections.
True Virgins Make Dull Companions. At Weddings.