Ubisoft comments on new DRM (will lower/prevent piracy?)

[onelifecrisis]

I'm surprised I've not seen this posted here yet, it's a few days old already. Maybe I just missed it? Anyway, read carefully what the Ubisoft rep says...

http://www.nowgamer.com/news/2380/ubisoft-clarify-pc-drm-strategy

also here (the same report really)

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/ubisoft-defends-risky-pc-drm-plan

[Onkel Neal]

You reading the same thing I'm reading? Where do they say "it will not prevent piracy?"

There's the typical marketing double-speak but nowhere do they admit anything. Because they say it will "lower" piracy? Maybe they mean lower it to zero.

[onelifecrisis]

Maybe they mean lower it to zero. :lol: :roll:

[IanC]

Yup, Ubi basicaly said nothing in that article. But they said it smoothly and with style. :yeah:
Well at least we now know that they “... know a permanent internet connection is controversial”. I guess that's something.

[onelifecrisis]

Are you two serious!? It's an admission if I ever saw one. Those PR guys choose their words carefully. They don't say "anything that can help lower piracy" when what they mean is "something that can prevent piracy". They're admitting that it'll be cracked.

[tater]

Lower the impact? Piracy is in a sense binary. It will be playable cracked, or it won't. If it is cracked it has not even mitigated piracy.

[Onkel Neal]

Whatever. That's a helluva stretch to admitting it won't prevent piracy :rotfl2:

[Nickolas]

"our goal is to deliver the best gaming experience to our customers."

they are doing it wrong i guess...

[onelifecrisis]

Whatever. That's a helluva stretch to admitting it won't prevent piracy :rotfl2:

Something tells me you have little interest in politics. :hmmm:

[Onkel Neal]

True, and even less interest in the accuracy and precision of anything that comes out of the mouth of a marketing and PR person ;) Half the time they don't know what they're talking about, as long as it sounds good.

[IanC]

Are you two serious!? It's an admission if I ever saw one. Those PR guys choose their words carefully. They don't say "anything that can help lower piracy" when what they mean is "something that can prevent piracy". They're admitting that it'll be cracked.

I know what you mean, there is a very slight tinge of admission in the way he says it. But at the same time he's not really saying anything is he. Where does that leave us now?

[theluckyone17]

True, and even less interest in the accuracy and precision of anything that comes out of the mouth of a marketing and PR person ;) Half the time they don't know what they're talking about, as long as it sounds good.

I'll toast to that. :yeah:

[tater]

Yeah, but "lowering the impact" smacks of something like being "a little pregnant" to me.

Once a functional (offline) crack is out and on the torrents, poof. Game over, it is pirated.

If they want to sell it as a service, show us the constant updates, etc, that would make people embrace it. THAT is how you SELL this. Proof or a pledge that the game will get meaningful updates every X weeks, etc.

[Dowly]

Lower the impact? Piracy is in a sense binary. It will be playable cracked, or it won't. If it is cracked it has not even mitigated piracy.

Exactly.

[onelifecrisis]

lol @ Neal
Fair enough.

I know what you mean, there is a very slight tinge of admission in the way he says it. But at the same time he's not really saying anything is he. Where does that leave us now?

I couldn't say where it leaves you. It leaves me knowing for a fact that their new DRM won't stop piracy - something I was trying to keep an open mind on, but now they've admitted it won't work, so I needn't wonder.

[razark]

Are you two serious!? It's an admission if I ever saw one. Those PR guys choose their words carefully. They don't say "anything that can help lower piracy" when what they mean is "something that can prevent piracy". They're admitting that it'll be cracked.

So... they're admitting that they can't end software piracy?

Did they ever claim that they were going to end it? Completely?

Their goal is not to stop piracy. Their goal is to lower the number of people pirating the games. If they can keep people from cracking the game for a week, that's a week's worth of sales they gain. (So their thinking goes) If they can keep the game from being cracked for a month, that's even more sales. And the more they sell, the less people playing pirated games. Therefore, lower piracy rates.

The fact that they're shooting themselves in the foot hasn't dawned on them yet.

[Lt commander lare]

So, is there any chance at this point that there will be an offline option before its released? Or am I going to have to wait till after it's released? I wont buy the game as it stands. You all here are my friends and I stand by you all here. A captain does not desert his crew no matter what. Now, that said, final bearing and shoot.


lt commander lare

[mookiemookie]

Sorry. I gotta say this is such a misleading thread title. Nowhere did they say anything of the sort. :nope:

[AkbarGulag]

Once a functional (offline) crack is out and on the torrents, poof. Game over, it is pirated.

There's no way this DRM will work. Plenty of games going the same way recently, all pirated almost overnight.

If they want to sell it as a service, show us the constant updates, etc, that would make people embrace it. THAT is how you SELL this. Proof or a pledge that the game will get meaningful updates every X weeks, etc.

If it was a 'Steam' game, well, then you could use it offline. Just need to be online to activate it. Never thought I would say this, but the steam system has lots of advantages, despite being critical at its conception. And I dare say more secure than DRM.


This no play while offline..... we don't all have crisp connections, it would be a never ending nightmare. Murphy's law dictates, that when your net does go down, it will be at exactly the moment you find time to have a lash at SH.

[Rip]

So... they're admitting that they can't end software piracy?

Did they ever claim that they were going to end it? Completely?

Their goal is not to stop piracy. Their goal is to lower the number of people pirating the games. If they can keep people from cracking the game for a week, that's a week's worth of sales they gain. (So their thinking goes) If they can keep the game from being cracked for a month, that's even more sales. And the more they sell, the less people playing pirated games. Therefore, lower piracy rates.

The fact that they're shooting themselves in the foot hasn't dawned on them yet.

Indeed. I would be surprised if even 1% of those that would pirate it will go buy it because they can't get it off torrent or something. Most of those guys don't buy anything and never will. Why piss of over half your customers fighting some war of principal with those losers. It is business suicide IMHO.

[Onkel Neal]

Indeed. I would be surprised if even 1% of those that would pirate it will go buy it because they can't get it off torrent or something. Most of those guys don't buy anything and never will.

Suppose there is a copy protection that they cannot crack (come on, just suppose for arguement's sake). Then all games will use this CP. What will these pirates do, switch to reading books and watching the food channel? Who CARES what they do, as long as they are not having the same fun I am, when I am paying for it and they are not.

Ok, maybe there will never be a undefeated CP. ROF has not been cracked for 11 months, I think that is pretty good.

[Highbury]

Ok, maybe there will never be a undefeated CP. ROF has not been cracked for 11 months, I think that is pretty good.

I was told in the Helosim section that ROF has not been cracked because the market for it is so small that nobody has bothered. I think with all of the people who played IL-2, ROF would have had a bigger potential market then a Sub sim. If the "hacking/cracking/pirating" community could not be arsed to crack a game like ROF, I think the odds of a large effort to crack SHV will be slight.

[Dowly]

ROF has not been cracked for 11 months, I think that is pretty good.

ROF has been saved because it's aimed at niche market. There simply isnt enough interest for a game like ROF for the scene groups to take notice of.

If the "hacking/cracking/pirating" community could not be arsed to crack a game like ROF, I think the odds of a large effort to crack SHV will be slight.

Except you are forgetting the fact that Assassin Creed 2 will most likely use this DRM aswell. Now that's a hot title that will have the scene groups swarming over it competing who can crack it first. Once it's cracked, it'll open door for other smaller games that use the DRM to be cracked.

[Reece]

Who CARES what they do, as long as they are not having the same fun I amNot that that's possible with DRM IMO!:oops:

[Highbury]

Except you are forgetting the fact that Assassin Creed 2 will most likely use this DRM aswell. Now that's a hot title that will have the scene groups swarming over it competing who can crack it first.

I was absolutely forgetting that, good point :up:

If a crack is made for ACII that will work on SHV.. well.. then it is cracked. If a crack is not common between the two I would still doubt a serious effort on the part of SHV alone. I have no doubt any of these could be cracked, I just doubt the enthusiasm to crack it on it's own.

[Onkel Neal]

ROF has been saved because it's aimed at niche market. There simply isnt enough interest for a game like ROF for the scene groups to take notice of.



That's a theory, it may be true. But maybe not, no way to prove it.

Except you are forgetting the fact that Assassin Creed 2 will most likely use this DRM aswell. Now that's a hot title that will have the scene groups swarming over it competing who can crack it first.

Yes, it will. I have my fingers crossed the "scene groups" will fail. :) If they do succeed, Ubisoft should bow their head in shame and untether the game. But, it would be sweet to frustrate these punks.

[Dowly]

That's a theory, it may be true. But maybe not, no way to prove it.

True that.

[Rip]

Suppose there is a copy protection that they cannot crack (come on, just suppose for arguement's sake). Then all games will use this CP. What will these pirates do, switch to reading books and watching the food channel? Who CARES what they do, as long as they are not having the same fun I am, when I am paying for it and they are not.

Ok, maybe there will never be a undefeated CP. ROF has not been cracked for 11 months, I think that is pretty good.

That would be awesome but that is like saying suppose they invent something to make us live forever? I'd rather stay within actual reason. Oh they might be making viruses to infect your computer, or help terrorists hack into and disrupt international networks. So the rest of us can't have any fun. Trust me they won't be up to anything that you would want them to be. Most of the people that actually crack the games hardly play them if at all. The cracking itself IS their game.

[Rip]

I was told in the Helosim section that ROF has not been cracked because the market for it is so small that nobody has bothered. I think with all of the people who played IL-2, ROF would have had a bigger potential market then a Sub sim. If the "hacking/cracking/pirating" community could not be arsed to crack a game like ROF, I think the odds of a large effort to crack SHV will be slight.

Ahh but how about Assassin's Creed or the other Ubi titles. It isn't like the protection is re-engineered for each title. Just like breaking one of the Enigma code techniques led to the ability to break them all once the number of titles increases it is inevitable.

[onelifecrisis]

I read on Wikipedia about a (in)famous virus (or worm or rootkit or something) which, to this day, nobody has managed to reverse-engineer because the code obfuscation was so extreme. The guy who wrote the virus was caught but he never said how the code works. Maybe they should get him to write some DRM.

[Adriatico]

It seems they are just preparing their "life boats"... if one day it gets cracked.

...and public question appears "For what reason you have tortured and devastated your fan base ?"

[Blood_splat]

Maybe they'll remove DRM after 3 or 6 months of profits.

[martes86]

Maybe they'll remove DRM after 3 or 6 months of profits.

Or the lack of profit... :hmmm:

[Brag]

The only new item is Ubi's admission that they are aware of discontent.
What they are not admitting that the rebellion against DRM is massive. They'll get the point once our wallets remain shut after launch date.

[theluckyone17]

...They'll get the point once our wallets remain shut after launch date.My fear is that they won't get the point... they'll claim the lackluster sales of SH5 are due to a lack of demand (true, due to the OSP, but not due to the lack of interest in SH5) and use it as an excuse to shut down the series.

Unless *all* of Ubisoft's products are suffering from lackluster sales. At that point, the exec's have a problem... do they admit they were wrong with OSP, or do they admit their customers have a diminished interest in their products overall?

It wouldn't be the first time I've seen a company's management ride it down to the ocean floor...

[AngusJS]

Lower the impact? Piracy is in a sense binary. It will be playable cracked, or it won't. If it is cracked it has not even mitigated piracy.

I disagree. There's a difference between being able to play a game immediately after downloading, and having to take extra steps, like setting up a virtual drive, to get it to work. Increasing the hassle of pirating decreases the number of pirates.

[TDK1044]

DRM doesn't prevent piracy....it prevents sales. :)

[capthelm]

wow i thought ubi where american..lmao

[himlaviz]

Maybe it's all a marketing trick.

Constant internet connection is in a few weeks changed to a check when you start the game or so and also a new offline feature if you're traveling and want to play without an internet connection.

All this due to massive feedback and uproar from the gaming community and who can then blame them for not listening to their customer base.

Maybe thats to sneaky even for Ubisoft!! :arrgh!:

[Hitman]

Suppose there is a copy protection that they cannot crack (come on, just suppose for arguement's sake). Then all games will use this CP. What will these pirates do, switch to reading books and watching the food channel? Who CARES what they do, as long as they are not having the same fun I am, when I am paying for it and they are not.

LOL that reminds me of an expression we use here in Valencia a lot. It's called "como el perro del hortelano, ni come, ni deja comer" i.e. "like the farmer's dog, he doesn't eat and doesn't allow anyone to eat" It refers to the dogs the traditional farmers tied near their fields, so that nobody could pick a fruit or two and eat. The dog doesn't eat the fruits, but he doesn't allow others either. He doesn't benefit from it, but hinders all those that could.

Never mind.

[Brag]

My fear is that they won't get the point... they'll claim the lackluster sales of SH5 are due to a lack of demand (true, due to the OSP, but not due to the lack of interest in SH5) and use it as an excuse to shut down the series.

Unless *all* of Ubisoft's products are suffering from lackluster sales. At that point, the exec's have a problem... do they admit they were wrong with OSP, or do they admit their customers have a diminished interest in their products overall?

It wouldn't be the first time I've seen a company's management ride it down to the ocean floor...

After launch, we can do a classic pincer movement, a sort of stereo protest. On the right speakers all they hear is the silence of our wallets. On the left, the roar of outrage. It may take a while but DRM/OSP is dead on arrival. :yep:

[melin71]

Im a rather old gamer, from the commandor 64 times back in the 80, And so far I can't say any game that not have been cracked after a few days or weeks, ok some small games that allmost no one buy dont. So Sh5 will be it to, it rather big titel.

But Im from sweden and just downloading games have not been forbidden in more then a couple of years here, so I know :D, but anyway I buy all the good games, But this time SH5 have to wait if the DRM get patched, I will spend my money on Napoleon total war, yup a steam games, I must say that I love steam, I have never had any trubel at all with steam, and I can play offline, so all my lates games I have bought the last 5 years i think is on steam. there are only some titles that I had to buy the DVD. I bought empire total war, the monster version, and that game was cracked before release day :nope:

[Onkel Neal]

After launch, we can do a classic pincer movement, a sort of stereo protest. On the right speakers all they hear is the silence of our wallets. On the left, the roar of outrage. It may take a while but DRM/OSP is dead on arrival. :yep:


Don't worry, Brag, on release day I'm going to buy three copies. :D

[Reece]

Don't worry, Brag, on release day I'm going to buy three copies. :DGet a straight Jacket boys!!:yep:

[Onkel Neal]

Kiss those tick marks goodbye! :O:

[flag4]

I'm surprised I've not seen this posted here yet, it's a few days old already. Maybe I just missed it? Anyway, read carefully what the Ubisoft rep says...

http://www.nowgamer.com/news/2380/ubisoft-clarify-pc-drm-strategy

also here (the same report really)

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/ubisoft-defends-risky-pc-drm-plan


corporate rhetoric. they will be laughing their tootsies off. beautifully ironed, seems to be devoid of any real meaning: can't wait to grab a copy of the game: please cut my the chains, cut my chains - im a slave to SH!!!!!

[cappy70]

There are other "problem(s)" that might occur with DRM that's really a tech. problem(s),(very annoying though) not piracy, and I hope they can straighten/iron them out.

I know the issue(s) , but if I tell you I have to torpedo you all :fff::salute::arrgh!:.........................

[Lt commander lare]

i say we take a v11c boat over there and show them where they can stick there torpedo if you want my opinion and as kelsey grammar says in down periscope god i love this job

lt commander lare

[Méo]

Funny isn't it...

None of the Anti-DRM ''ideological crusader'' had convinced me yet to boycott the game.. ..but, they, the marketing, are actually doing so. :nope:


Personally, what is shocking is not this:Any initiative that allows us to lower the impact of piracy on our PC gamesIT'S THIS: Ubisoft's number one goal is to provide added value that will facilitate and enrich the gaming experience of our PC customers.Anyone had read this? Their ''number one goal is to facilitate and enrich the gaming experience of our PC customers''.

:o:stare:

Isn't it hypocritical?


I didn't mind before to be connected (since I'm always connected anyway) to prevent or lower piracy but since this is their NUMBER ONE GOAL... they are gonna have a hard time convincing me that it's gonna facilitate and enrich my gaming experience...

Sorry, but this type of political & hypocritical discourse is disgusting...

[Sailor Steve]

I see this has turned into yet another DRM debate.

To the original topic by OLC: I don't see them admitting anything either. They say it offers protection against piracy, and they say that anything which helps to reduce piracy lets them concentrate on other stuff. Nowhere do they say that it won't help, or even hint at that. All they do is try to justify what they're doing.

[trenken]

This topic is silly, there is no such thing as preventing piracy. You can try to minimize it, or slow it down, but those guys always find a way to crack whatever they want to crack.

You can use this as a reason to attack DRM if you want, but there is no system in the world that cant be cracked. Ubi knows that, they're just trying to slow it down, and online authentication does do that.

[Dowly]

Nowhere do they say that it won't help, or even hint at that.

They dont admit it, but they use word "lower" instead of "stop", which would, atleast to me, indicate that they have no 100% faith that this new DRM does anything against piracy. :03:

Ubi knows that, they're just trying to slow it down, and online authentication does do that.

But is it really worth it to bug their customers for what, an week, maybe a month worth of extra sales? And once it's cracked, the DRM comes void and only continues to give trouble for the legal owner of the game.

[martes86]

I see this has turned into yet another DRM debate.

Wasn't it originally about DRM? :haha:

[Sailor Steve]

Wasn't it originally about DRM? :haha:
No.

It was about whether UBIsoft admitted that the proposed system would work or not. That does necessarily include the mention of DRM, but it doesn't justify starting the "I hate DRM" argument all over again.

[Méo]

Ubi knows that, they're just trying to slow it down, and online authentication does do that.

Of course, I agree, there's is no perfect solution against piracy.

But using the cover that their number one goal is to ''facilitate and enrich the gaming experience'' is pretty hypocritical.

[Sailor Steve]

Of course, I agree, there's is no perfect solution against piracy.

But using the cover that their number one goal is to ''facilitate and enrich the gaming experience'' is pretty hypocritical.
I was going argue that you had misused that term, but after double-checking the dictionary I have to admit that you could be right on the mark.

[trenken]

Of course, I agree, there's is no perfect solution against piracy.

But using the cover that their number one goal is to ''facilitate and enrich the gaming experience'' is pretty hypocritical.

Well regardless of what they say, we know nothing will stop piracy, and they know that as well. I think all they are trying to do is make us feel comfortable about the switch to this new system, and until you see some reviews of it or play the game yourself, you have no right to assume what this system will or will not do.

They say it will enrich the gaming experience, maybe it will, maybe it wont. Not a single one of us knows. But to just assume it wont before the game is even out doesnt make a whole lot of sense to me.

You're just assuming it wont enrich it because you dont like having to play online, but what about those of us that do? Maybe, just maybe, there will be something cool about this for the rest of us, some advantage to it that benefits the gamer. You guys are unwilling to see the other side of the fence, I dont get that.

[Brag]

Of course, I agree, there's is no perfect solution against piracy.

But using the cover that their number one goal is to ''facilitate and enrich the gaming experience'' is pretty hypocritical.

Ubi is ignoring basic marketing rules. One of the most basic is: Never insult your client's intelligence.

[Dowly]

Well regardless of what they say, we know nothing will stop piracy, and they know that as well. I think all they are trying to do is make us feel comfortable about the switch to this new system, and until you see some reviews of it or play the game yourself, you have no right to assume what this system will or will not do.

They say it will enrich the gaming experience, maybe it will, maybe it wont. Not a single one of us knows. But to just assume it wont before the game is even out doesnt make a whole lot of sense to me.

You're just assuming it wont enrich it because you dont like having to play online, but what about those of us that do? Maybe, just maybe, there will be something cool about this for the rest of us, some advantage to it that benefits the gamer. You guys are unwilling to see the other side of the fence, I dont get that.

It's actually quite simple to spot when they are just making stuff up. I mean, look everywhere where there has been a big change, be it in movie industry or gaming industry. They always remind that they'll do this for our own good, before releasing something completely retarded. :O: It's marketing you know. ;)

[Sailor Steve]

They say it will enrich the gaming experience, maybe it will, maybe it wont. Not a single one of us knows. But to just assume it wont before the game is even out doesnt make a whole lot of sense to me.
But from some of your previous arguments you are already convinced that there will be benefits, and that they will outweigh any possible downside. So you are also arguing your side before you've seen the game.

You're just assuming it wont enrich it because you dont like having to play online, but what about those of us that do? Maybe, just maybe, there will be something cool about this for the rest of us, some advantage to it that benefits the gamer. You guys are unwilling to see the other side of the fence, I dont get that.
Again, you are also assuming that it will enrich it and refusing to see the other side, so your arguments are no different or no better than those with whom you disagree. So you do get it; you just don't want to see it.

[Méo]

You're just assuming it wont enrich it because you dont like having to play online

I could easily say that you're just assuming that I don't like to play online...

I've already said that I didn't mind to be connected:I didn't mind before to be connected (since I'm always connected anyway) to prevent or lower piracy


Ubi is ignoring basic marketing rules. One of the most basic is: Never insult your client's intelligence.
:yep:

[BellJack95]

My concern with this DRM system is that every time I want to play the game I must be connected to the Internet. SH5 is not a MMO. Why must you be connected to play a non-MMO? Sadly piracy exists and there are those who would prefer to play for free....so in an attempt to reduce this they enact something that forces all to be connected to play.

There are times that I enjoy the ability to play a game without having to ensure I am connected. During the last winter storm the power was on but my internet was very slow, so I wonder how good a connection must you have? I tested with an MMO and found the "server disconnected" or "server lost connection" messages appears several times and even noticed lag. So would SH5 require a good, fast connection or in the middle of an attack does it detect a too slow connection and drop you...what happens to your game? Do you start where you left off or from last save? Ubisoft should answer these questions in an FAQ to help set expectations.

When I was on my last deployment the Internet was not available for gaming use...so I would be SOL if deployed and wanting to play SH5. I am interested in the game but have not made my mind up yet. Need to budget for it before I could buy it anyway.

[trenken]

But from some of your previous arguments you are already convinced that there will be benefits, and that they will outweigh any possible downside. So you are also arguing your side before you've seen the game.


Again, you are also assuming that it will enrich it and refusing to see the other side, so your arguments are no different or no better than those with whom you disagree. So you do get it; you just don't want to see it.

How am I assuming it will enrich anything? I just said I dont know if it will or not. I didnt say it WILL do that, just that MAYBE it will, MAYBE it wont.

Read my post again.

[Rip]

How am I assuming it will enrich anything? I just said I dont know if it will or not. I didnt say it WILL do that, just that MAYBE it will, MAYBE it wont.

Read my post again.


Maybe it will kill all the pirates and cause climate change to accelerate unchecked? Let's hope not.


Also a decrease in the number of pirates has been linked to global warming. As pirate numbers have slowly dwindled, the temp. of the earth has slowly began to rise.

http://petaarr.blogspot.com/2009/10/pirates-and-spaghetti.html

http://borkweb.com/story/global-warming-causes-pirate-population-decrease

[TDK1044]

If Ubisoft had required that we connect to a Ubisoft server in order to authenticate the game each time before playing, I would have had no objection to that at all. They have an absolute right to try and protect their investment.

But to require that I remain connected to their server in order to play the game in unacceptable.

[Sailor Steve]

How am I assuming it will enrich anything? I just said I dont know if it will or not. I didnt say it WILL do that, just that MAYBE it will, MAYBE it wont.

Read my post again.
My statement was partially based on the fact that you have repeatedly extolled the virtues of the system in previous discussions. Since your argument for it (and you always argue for it, not that it 'may' be better) is based on your prior experience, and you already insist that it is better, not worse, than what has come before, I see your question as at least disengenuous, if not downright dishonest. You have indeed claimed that it WILL improve the experience.

You're just assuming it wont enrich it because you dont like having to play online
I don't care if it will enrich it or not. I'm against it because it's invasive and intrusive.

[codmander]

pirates being pirates will crack sh5 period I'm not a pirate but the way things are going with sh5 there just gonna turn more people into pirates

[trenken]

My statement was partially based on the fact that you have repeatedly extolled the virtues of the system in previous discussions. Since your argument for it (and you always argue for it, not that it 'may' be better) is based on your prior experience, and you already insist that it is better, not worse, than what has come before, I see your question as at least disengenuous, if not downright dishonest. You have indeed claimed that it WILL improve the experience.


Ive never had bad experiences in online games. I even like the fact that it saves online, so should I just lie about that as well to stay on your good side? I dont think so. Just as you are in every thread complaining about DRM, Ive expressed why I dont mind it. It's a 2-way street.

[TDK1044]

Ive never had bad experiences in online games. I even like the fact that it saves online, so should I just lie about that as well to stay on your good side? I dont think so. Just as you are in every thread complaining about DRM, Ive expressed why I dont mind it. It's a 2-way street.

So if Ubisoft issues a patch that enables you to play the game offline, you won't apply it then?

[theluckyone17]

We already know about OSP and what upsides and downsides are provided by it. Ubisoft itself has stated the following:

The "enrichment" provided by OSP:


Save game files stored on the server, accessible from the internet.
Ability to install on an unlimited amount of PCs, assuming only one accesses the Ubisoft account (and hence, playing) at a time.
No more Starforce, disk checks, etc.

The downsides:


Requirement of having a constant connection and all that it implies; i.e., no offline mode, ISP reliability, server reliability, privacy issues, and concerns regarding what Ubisoft may be doing in the background with the constant connection.

That's clear cut... there's no wait and see. We know what OSP is bringing to the table.

If the upsides beat the downsides, buy SH5. If they don't, then stick with the rest of us and hope Ubi relents.

Myself: I'm a big boy now. I can back up my own data, thank you very much. I've only one gaming PC. I don't like other DRM, but I'll deal with it. I will not put up with the requirement of a constant connection.

Ubisoft can make all the promises they want, stating that OSP will increase sales and thus profits, and implying they'll turn around and put those profits back into developing better software. I've heard lots of promises in the past from gaming companies. Most haven't panned out. I don't see Ubisoft being any different.

[trenken]

So if Ubisoft issues a patch that enables you to play the game offline, you won't apply it then?

It wouldnt matter to me either way. If they made it mandatory of course I would install it. If not then I probably wouldnt bother out of fear of other problems the patch may cause. Id have no reason to install it though, I have the internet and I havent lost connection in years, unless I lost power, which happens maybe once a year. Not an issue.

[Iron Budokan]

Reading this article/link hasn't changed my perspective, I'm afraid.

Moo.

[TDK1044]

It wouldnt matter to me either way. If they made it mandatory of course I would install it. If not then I probably wouldnt bother out of fear of other problems the patch may cause. Id have no reason to install it though, I have the internet and I havent lost connection in years, unless I lost power, which happens maybe once a year. Not an issue.

That's fair enough, trenken. I respect your opinion, I just respectfully disagree. :)

[HundertzehnGustav]

Moooooooooo:salute:

[Uber Gruber]

Firewalls! Thats going to be a pain. Can you imagine the number of posts we'll be getting about game not working cos people cant configure their firewalls to allow DRM/OSD/KACK through ?

Worse still, some supermods require a fair bit of resources so I have found turning my firewall off helps (obviously i'm not connected when I do this). I've even had CTDs with SH3 due to the firewall I was using.

Yep....we've got all that noise to come...:down:

[tater]

Ive never had bad experiences in online games. I even like the fact that it saves online, so should I just lie about that as well to stay on your good side? I dont think so. Just as you are in every thread complaining about DRM, Ive expressed why I dont mind it. It's a 2-way street.

In other posts you derided even the idea that someone might ever have a poor connection, or that servers (Ubi's own fault) might ever go down or be slow. Your suggestions to people who brought that up were along the lines that they should throw away their computers and play Monopoly (presumably they'd drive their Model Ts to the store to purchase that game).

The reality is that due to no fault of the customer, they WILL be inconvenienced by this 100% connected scheme. Period. This cannot even be debated. There WILL be connection problems sometimes, and there WILL be scheduled and unscheduled outages with Ubi servers that will make people like me who might pop onto the PC for an hour of play with a beer in hand really POed.

WILL happen, not a chance it won't. Invariably when they have no one on-call to fix it, too—which will likely be when the bulk of people also have time off to play (like over holidays).

[Brag]

The question that is seldom mentioned in this debate is, how long is Ubi going to spend money on servers after the game has stopped making money?

What if the company goes belly up?
What if company is sold?

This is not just a DRM/OSP issue but also online activation.

A once online activation is ok. Activation everytime or periodic is a NO-NO!

Moo!

[Sailor Steve]

Ive never had bad experiences in online games. I even like the fact that it saves online, so should I just lie about that as well to stay on your good side? I dont think so. Just as you are in every thread complaining about DRM, Ive expressed why I dont mind it. It's a 2-way street.
Yes it is. But this wasn't about liking it or disliking it. This was about you saying none of us (including you) knew one way or the other whether it would be good or bad, so no one should complain (which would also include "why praise", when in fact you've already claimed to know for a fact that it's good.

It ceases to be a two-way street when you assume disengenuous motives to make your point.

[MercurySeven]

What if the company goes belly up?
What if company is sold?

Case 1: Sucks to be us! All that remains in such a case is (even though I don't like it) to hope for someone to find the weakspot if this thing and write a non-UBI patch to bypass it. Might be even one of the (then) former developers that hates to see the game go belly up. No official solution nor a solution one would hope for but a solution nontheless.

Case 2: If a company is sold all its contracts are transfered to the new owner and he is bound to those contracts. Thus, if UBI puts in their contracts that they will provide a no-servers patch once the servers are to be shut down, the new owner has to do this as well. If they don't, please refer to Case 1. :know:

[tater]

I've been playing online games since Air Warrior in the early 90s. If you've NEVER had any server or connection errors, you have, quite simply, not played very many hours of online games.

[Jimbuna]

The question that is seldom mentioned in this debate is, how long is Ubi going to spend money on servers after the game has stopped making money?

What if the company goes belly up?
What if company is sold?

This is not just a DRM/OSP issue but also online activation.

A once online activation is ok. Activation everytime or periodic is a NO-NO!

Moo!

Good valid points :yep:


http://farblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/moo.jpg

[Iron Budokan]

I've been playing online games since Air Warrior in the early 90s. If you've NEVER had any server or connection errors, you have, quite simply, not played very many hours of online games.

^^This.

[trenken]

That's fair enough, trenken. I respect your opinion, I just respectfully disagree. :)

Thats fine that you disagree, just dont jump on my case for feeling like I do, thats all I ask.

I understand why many would have a problem with DRM, but I dont, so I wont pretend like its a problem for me to stay out of trouble.

Im not looking to make enemies here. Some threads in the past have gotten out of control, said some things I shouldnt have out of anger and retaliation which was immature of me, but others have done it as well.

So at this point, it doesnt help for them to bring it up in every thread, especially the positive ones, and I wont go defending my reasons for not having a problem with it.

[Blood_splat]

I just think it'll suck if you line up for that perfect shot and 10ft from torpedo impact, Ubisoft's server drops off the face of the planet or your ISP crashes.
http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s2/andrewp2980/fraserclap.gif

[Sailor Steve]

Don't point that thing at me. My first contribution to this thread was to criticize someone turning it into one of 'those' threads. My first disagreement with you was over the question of whether making an opinion sight unseen didn't go both ways.

I'm not your enemy. I've disagreed with you, sometimes heatedly. But I've not made fun of you or called you names. I'm actually on yours side, as long as an opinion is all you express.

Just wanted to separate myself from the crowd.:sunny:

[trenken]

In other posts you derided even the idea that someone might ever have a poor connection, or that servers (Ubi's own fault) might ever go down or be slow. Your suggestions to people who brought that up were along the lines that they should throw away their computers and play Monopoly (presumably they'd drive their Model Ts to the store to purchase that game).

The reality is that due to no fault of the customer, they WILL be inconvenienced by this 100% connected scheme. Period. This cannot even be debated. There WILL be connection problems sometimes, and there WILL be scheduled and unscheduled outages with Ubi servers that will make people like me who might pop onto the PC for an hour of play with a beer in hand really POed.

WILL happen, not a chance it won't. Invariably when they have no one on-call to fix it, too—which will likely be when the bulk of people also have time off to play (like over holidays).

The whole server going down thing to me just comes with the territory. Im just used to it.

If someone has a problem with DRM because they cant afford the internet, wont always have access to it, etc... I understand them not being acceptive of a single player only game requiring a connection. All Ive ever said is that MOST PC gamers these days that can afford to build a machine to even run these games can afford it.

And if they cant get it at all, well what can you do? Everything is going online now, even single player games. Times are changing. That was my point.

Servers go down, thats just the way things go. If your computer dies, do you blame someone else for not being able to play the game? No because nothing good can come from that. You just hope that your computer keeps running, or the server will stay up and move on. I dont see the sense in trying to wage a war against them when they arent the only ones doing this, everything is going online. Its the natural progression of things, just as physical media will eventually go away as well. In 10 years you wont be able to find disc based games anymore. Digital distribution is the next natural wave of the future.

Thats the way I see it. I always compare this to when records switched to tapes, or VHS to DVDs. Not everyone could afford to make the switch, so they either eventually had to, or are forced into vintage shops. That could be the case in the future, with old school gamers looking for off line only games as they become more rare over time. People dont like change, but that doesnt stop it from taking place.

I always like to quote a line from my favorite rock band, Rush. "Always hopeful, yet discontent. He knows changes aren't permanent.... But change is".

Think about the bold part there. Ever since I heard that, when things change around me, I dont bitch about it, I change with it because thats all I can do. It makes my life easier.

[trenken]

Don't point that thing at me. My first contribution to this thread was to criticize someone turning it into one of 'those' threads. My first disagreement with you was over the question of whether making an opinion sight unseen didn't go both ways.

I'm not your enemy. I've disagreed with you, sometimes heatedly. But I've not made fun of you or called you names. I'm actually on yours side, as long as an opinion is all you express.

Just wanted to separate myself from the crowd.:sunny:

Im not talking about you, Steve. I'm just saying I have in fact been attacked by people for not having a problem with DRM, and was even featured in that Das Boot video, which believe me, I thought it was funny, but at the same time it wasnt cool to have someone do that to you when all I was trying to do is explain why things are changing now, and why I dont have a problem with it.

[TarJak]

I dont see the sense in trying to wage a war against them when they arent the only ones doing this, everything is going online. I don't see anyone waging war I do see people getting upset or concerned about their privacy and voicing that concern.

I do see the point in doing so because if enough customers do it then the companies that are planning to put these protection schemes in place MAY just change their mind. I think you will find that is the point of most of what is being said here against OSP.

Thats the way I see it. I always compare this to when records switched to tapes, or VHS to DVDs. Not everyone could afford to make the switch, so they either eventually had to, or are forced into vintage shops. That could be the case in the future, with old school gamers looking for off line only games as they become more rare over time. People dont like change, but that doesnt stop it from taking place.How about we compare it to the decline and rise of vinyl music recordings? They died in the backside when CD's came out and then people who wanted the hiss and crackle and moreover the depth of sound that comes from an analogue record, created a demand. so much so that there are now artists that release exclusively on vinyl. If the demand is high enough companies listen because there is money involved.

[trenken]

I don't see anyone waging war I do see people getting upset or concerned about their privacy and voicing that concern.

I do see the point in doing so because if enough customers do it then the companies that are planning to put these protection schemes in place MAY just change their mind. I think you will find that is the point of most of what is being said here against OSP.

Well regarding the privacy issues, if I recall, the only thing I ever said about that is what exactly is at risk there? How long you play? How you like to play? It all seems unimportant to me, but that's just my opinion.

If someone finds offense to what they're doing, I don't understand that, but of course they can feel the way they want about it. I'm not trying to change anyone views, all I did was express why I didnt think it was a problem. I'm allowed to do that.

But its a hot topic and things get out of control. It happens. Noone is in the wrong there. All I want is all this stuff to be centralized to 1 topic, not spread throughout the entire board.

Because some of us are excited for the game, but im afraid to express that here now. It shouldnt be like that.

[TarJak]

I agree that you shouldn't feel afraid to express your views and from what I've seen you have done so quite often. Instead of trying to police the boards, (moderators have that role to play),

Go ahead and keep telling people what you think. You may change a mind or two.

Just not mine.;)

[trenken]

How about we compare it to the decline and rise of vinyl music recordings? They died in the backside when CD's came out and then people who wanted the hiss and crackle and moreover the depth of sound that comes from an analogue record, created a demand. so much so that there are now artists that release exclusively on vinyl. If the demand is high enough companies listen because there is money involved.

Trust me, I totally understand why people love albums, but that doesnt mean that the change would cease to take place just because so many people loved it. Time has shown that it didnt, CDs did in fact take over. If you want to buy an album, you have 2 options, online or vintage shops.

Technology is always changing, and some people that are stuck on the way things were will just be left behind. Thats just the way its always been. Im very understanding of that. I guess im just a different kind of person.

When I fall in love with something, and its eventually replaced, its not hard for me to let go. I dont question why the change is taking place, I recognize I have no options but to let it go. Too many times in my life Ive seem people try to hang on to the way things were, and it never works out too well for them. Change doesnt halt for anyone. A bunch of people here complaining to Ubi about SH5 is not going to change the current trend of the industry.

[THE_MASK]

Is it just me , does anyone else turn into this when the internet stops working .
http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/8137/werewolf4.jpg (http://img19.imageshack.us/i/werewolf4.jpg/)

[trenken]

I agree that you shouldn't feel afraid to express your views and from what I've seen you have done so quite often. Instead of trying to police the boards, (moderators have that role to play),

Go ahead and keep telling people what you think. You may change a mind or two.

Just not mine.;)

To be honest with you im not trying to change anyones minds. If a single person is changed to be a little more open to the way things are now out of what ive said, thats nice, but I dont care about that honestly.

I dont care if Ubi makes a single dime over my defending my reasons for not having a problem with DRM. Its not about that. Its just about the simple fact thats its completely overtaken the SH5 boards. Thats all it is for me.

Had this all been centralized to 1 SH5 thread I would have let it go. But once I tried to post in a couple positive threads that decended into DRM trash fests is when I started getting all defensive about it.

I know thats immature anyway, but it happened. I just want it to stop. The game is close to release, some of us are very excited, apparently only a few of us, but still, for something that is such a hot topic, it needs to be reeled in at some point. Thats just standard practice on internet message boards. It needs to be done to keep order.

[TarJak]

A bunch of people here complaining to Ubi about SH5 is not going to change the current trend of the industry.If that were the case I'd agree with you but it's not just use here and it's not just subsim.

There are many others on many other boards playning many other games that are also voicing their displeasure/acceptance.

Just because it is "destined" to happen doesn't mean it has to. I personally do not believe in destiny and do believe in the power of people voicing their opinions about issues like these. Particularly where it concerns consumers wallets.

It doesn't alway get the result everyone wants but it can influence the result nonetheless.

[zakarpatska]

I was told in the Helosim section that ROF has not been cracked because the market for it is so small that nobody has bothered. I think with all of the people who played IL-2, ROF would have had a bigger potential market then a Sub sim. If the "hacking/cracking/pirating" community could not be arsed to crack a game like ROF, I think the odds of a large effort to crack SHV will be slight.

I was going to buy ROF until I heard about the DRM and then I decided not to. Since I both enjoy flight sims and am interested in WWI aviation I would imagine that I am a member ROF's target market.

So the DRM added to ROF prevented at least one sale. I can't imagine I was the only person who did not buy because of the DRM.

On the other hand ROF has not been pirated yet. It would be interesting to know whether DRM actually lost or increased sales for ROF.

[longam]

Is it just me , does anyone else turn into this when the internet stops working .
http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/8137/werewolf4.jpg (http://img19.imageshack.us/i/werewolf4.jpg/)

Something close, where have these poeple been hiding.....oh wait in the SH3/GrowlingWolfXtra forum.

[TarJak]

I just want it to stop.Good luck with that.:D

[Rip]

Trust me, I totally understand why people love albums, but that doesnt mean that the change would cease to take place just because so many people loved it. Time has shown that it didnt, CDs did in fact take over. If you want to buy an album, you have 2 options, online or vintage shops.

Technology is always changing, and some people that are stuck on the way things were will just be left behind. Thats just the way its always been. Im very understanding of that. I guess im just a different kind of person.

When I fall in love with something, and its eventually replaced, its not hard for me to let go. I dont question why the change is taking place, I recognize I have no options but to let it go. Too many times in my life Ive seem people try to hang on to the way things were, and it never works out too well for them. Change doesnt halt for anyone. A bunch of people here complaining to Ubi about SH5 is not going to change the current trend of the industry.


The thing is they are trying to force old jazz music to a bunch of old timers that like vinyl on CD. The old timers will for the most part just continue listening to the ones they have until someone sees the market for the vinyl and buy that.

You can lead the horses to water but you can't make them drink. In the end with any luck the failure (being theoretical here, no idea what sales will do) of the franchise will result in someone at some point buying the name and possibly material and going at it with a better feel for the market they are able to appeal to.

Also in thinking about this it is strange that this market (hardcore simulation) seems to also be VERY concerned about the privacy and related issues raised by this always connected OSP model. I would not be surprised to see some other things that we think in common that also have a drastic contrast to the norm, even for adult gamers.

[Brag]

If that were the case I'd agree with you but it's not just use here and it's not just subsim.

There are many others on many other boards playning many other games that are also voicing their displeasure/acceptance.

Just because it is "destined" to happen doesn't mean it has to. I personally do not believe in destiny and do believe in the power of people voicing their opinions about issues like these. Particularly where it concerns consumers wallets.

It doesn't alway get the result everyone wants but it can influence the result nonetheless.


Snap, snap, snap shut your wallets and the future is yours. Ubi has only a few fanboys who will buy. As other gamers do the same, arrogant companies like Ubi will learn to listen.

Snap, snap, snap :D

[TarJak]

For example: http://subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1259349&postcount=1

I rest my case.:woot:

[frenema]

Hi, I'm a lurker and I've been waiting for SH5 ever since the rumors started... but I'm totally pissed about the whole DRM/OSP fiasco. :nope: Do these people seriously think thank sales will rise if the game becomes unsellable once bought? :damn:

Now... trenken, I've been reading lot of posts from you. Everyone has a right to their own opinion, but your arguments are simply flawed I must say...

And if they cant get it at all, well what can you do? Everything is going online now, even single player games. Times are changing. That was my point.
I dont see the sense in trying to wage a war against them when they arent the only ones doing this, everything is going online. Its the natural progression of things...
No it's not. You talk as if the whole gaming industry is going OSP these days, but there are still companies like Paradox Interactive who sell millions per every game they release. And guess what DRM they use? Nothing, not even a serial key, because they're business run on a philosophy that customers have to be bought, not enslaved to make profit. And I'm sure there are many new single player games out there (and will be out in future) that doesn't come with Big Brother package.

Servers go down, thats just the way things go. If your computer dies, do you blame someone else for not being able to play the game? No because nothing good can come from that. You just hope that your computer keeps running, or the server will stay up and move on.
Hard drives have manufacturer warranty no? What guarantee is Ubisoft giving us for a stable server? Shouldn't people be responsible for their own data? Besides, hard drives don't fail that often, so it's not really the best comparison is it?

Thats the way I see it. I always compare this to when records switched to tapes, or VHS to DVDs. Not everyone could afford to make the switch, so they either eventually had to, or are forced into vintage shops. That could be the case in the future, with old school gamers looking for off line only games as they become more rare over time. People dont like change, but that doesnt stop it from taking place.
Again, poor comparison. How can you possibly compare technology that advances for the convenience of the customers (VHS -> DVD; higher quality and more compact) to Ubisoft's technological 'advancement' that only serves to give more power to the company to control its own customers? (freedom of play -> OSP; online check for installation, constant online monitoring, dependence on company server, online save, no resell, etc, etc...)

A better comparison would be the government installing surveillance cameras on every new home and car you buy just in case you are involved in illegal activities. I doubt people will sit and go with the flow if that ever happens. :har: Of course governments are harder to fight back than companies and that's exactly what people here are doing: rising up against Ubisoft's draconian DRM so that they will maybe reconsider implementing it before it is released. How are they going to know if people just stayed quiet? So people aren't making futile uproar if that's what you think it is. If they choose to continue with their new DRM policy then people will speak with their wallets and both parties will not be happy.

I always like to quote a line from my favorite rock band, Rush. "Always hopeful, yet discontent. He knows changes aren't permanent.... But change is".

Think about the bold part there. Ever since I heard that, when things change around me, I dont bitch about it, I change with it because thats all I can do. It makes my life easier.
So does that mean you're going to stop "bitch"ing about people's opinion of the new OSP on this board? Because clearly you haven't changed the general consensus on the OSP/DRM issue yet. :hmmm:

[Onkel Neal]

Is it just me , does anyone else turn into this when the internet stops working .



What? The slowest loading picture in the universe? :O:

[THE_MASK]

What? The slowest loading picture in the universe? :O:
Knowing my luck it probably loaded my entire computer contents via some trojan as well .

[tater]

The whole server going down thing to me just comes with the territory. Im just used to it.

Being used to not playing an online game when online doesn't work is one thing, it's part of the very concept. Being used to not playing an OFFLINE game because a server someplace in thye world doesn't work is, well, crazy.


If someone has a problem with DRM because they cant afford the internet, wont always have access to it, etc... I understand them not being acceptive of a single player only game requiring a connection. All Ive ever said is that MOST PC gamers these days that can afford to build a machine to even run these games can afford it.You sound as if people who have a problem with their net connections cannot afford it. Before they moved a CO up close enough for my DSL connection, I had a long range, custom 802.11 setup---luckily from my house in the foothills I can see rooftops downtown---the set up alone was several hundred bucks, then my 1MB symmetric connection was more than DSL. Cost is not an object, frankly. We'd happily pay a couple hundred bucks a month for a really fast connection (even at 1.5 megabits, it takes a while for my wife to load up CT and MRI studies she needs to look at). Again, we simply cannot up here.

And if they cant get it at all, well what can you do? Everything is going online now, even single player games. Times are changing. That was my point.
The point virtually everyone else is making is that single-player games that don't gain value from a constant net-connection should not have one.

Servers go down, thats just the way things go. If your computer dies, do you blame someone else for not being able to play the game? No because nothing good can come from that. You just hope that your computer keeps running, or the server will stay up and move on. I dont see the sense in trying to wage a war against them when they arent the only ones doing this, everything is going online.I can only assume you are paid to support this nonsense by someone. Really. It's bizzare. If MY machine fails (any of the 4 of them) it's my fault, AND I have more machines. If Ubi's server fails, they owe me money, IMO. I want to play NOW, and I cannot, it's THEIR fault.

BTW, I've owned computers since 1984, and remarkably I've never had one crash. Not ever. Course I replace stuff before it fails to avoid that. Meanwhile, every single online game has unscheduled downtime. All of them.

Its the natural progression of things, just as physical media will eventually go away as well. In 10 years you wont be able to find disc based games anymore. Digital distribution is the next natural wave of the future.True, but requiring a tether is NOT the wave of the future, mobile devices are.

Thats the way I see it. I always compare this to when records switched to tapes, or VHS to DVDs. Not everyone could afford to make the switch, so they either eventually had to, or are forced into vintage shops. That could be the case in the future, with old school gamers looking for off line only games as they become more rare over time. People dont like change, but that doesnt stop it from taking place.Again with the cost. It's not even an object for me, really. My connection is even pretty stable, in fact more stable than the Ubi forums---which is exactly as stable as you can expect their game servers to be (ie: not very).

You apparently argue that unresponsive, frustrating gameplay is the wave of the future and should be embraced. Some of us beg to differ.

I always like to quote a line from my favorite rock band, Rush. "Always hopeful, yet discontent. He knows changes aren't permanent.... But change is".

Think about the bold part there. Ever since I heard that, when things change around me, I dont bitch about it, I change with it because thats all I can do. It makes my life easier.I used to listen to a lot of Rush. I bought that album when it was brand new, BTW.

You don't bitch about changes that will make your personal game time LESS enjoyable (the OSP can ONLY make it less enjoyable, or for the lucky exactly the same), but you DO make many posts about why no one else should bitch about it being less enjoyable. Odd, that. If you really felt as you pose, you'd simply not post at all, waste of time that it is. (the only plus, safety from personal HD failure is a non-issue since anyone with a good net connections and a brain that consists of more than 2 neurons held together with a spirochete has an offsite backup service anyway).

[tater]

Name one "Pro" of an "always on" internet requirement for an offline game?

Name ONE. Be specific as to why it has to always have a connection, not just when it is required to send/receive data (say when saving the game).

[Onkel Neal]

Name one "Pro" of an "always on" internet requirement for an offline game?

Name ONE. Be specific as to why it has to always have a connection, not just when it is required to send/receive data (say when saving the game).


Stops pirates. There, I said it.

[tater]

Stops pirates. There, I said it.

To stop pirates it has to stop them, 100%. If it's cracked, it's cracked. The only possible mitigation would be if it took so long to crack, the next version was already out.

That's a major plus if it works. If it doesn't work, there are no other "pros", only cons.

It still retains the downside of resulting in frustration for users. I have some time to play, and ubi is down so I'm SOL. I simply won't ever pay to be annoyed like that.

[Philipp_Thomsen]

I've been reading forums here and there about the new DRM on the last few days, but quietly. Reading some of the replies from people, laughing at some, agreeing to others.

Truth be told, nothing they come up with will ever stop piracy.

Why?

Cos everything done can be undone, when you're talking about software.

Everything, no exceptions.

The new DRM will serve only to ENCOURAGE piracy, cos most people will be so annoyed they cant play when there is no internet connection, they will download the pirate version even if they bough the original game.

Imagine yourself: You bough the game, but you have a laptop. Most people have laptops nowdays. Most laptops nowdays are good enough to run the game. You invested your money on buying the game and you invested your money on a decent laptop so you can run the game, cos lets face it, we will all love SH5, no exceptions. Now, you find youself in a car or somewhere else, you have to wait for a person or something, and you have a couple of hours in idle. You have somewhere to sit and you have your laptop. You would LOVE to play SH5, but there is no internet around. After a few episodes like this, where you paid good money for having the conditions of playing the game you like and yet after a stupid decision by Ubi you can't, you will eventually see SH5 to download on the bittorrent sites, you will eventually break. So, in my opinion, this DRM will only encourage piracy. It doesnt matter if you own the game or not, you are one more peer, one more person helping on another person's upload.

From all the point-of-views, this decision is just plain stupid.

[Jimbuna]

I agree that you shouldn't feel afraid to express your views and from what I've seen you have done so quite often. Instead of trying to police the boards, (moderators have that role to play),

Go ahead and keep telling people what you think. You may change a mind or two.

Just not mine.;)

Agreed....nor mine.

The ROF example is a good one.

If the weight of anti DRM opinion here and over at the Ubi forums is replicated across other forums (which I suspect is the case) then there is always hope that changes may come about, if not prior to release then shortly after.

[Frederf]

The new DRM will serve only to ENCOURAGE piracy, cos most people will be so annoyed they cant play when there is no internet connection, they will download the pirate version even if they bough the original game.

To be fair, stealing something you paid for is not piracy. If I buy some software and have to end up using non-traditional means (like I crack) to get it working then that is covered under the "Backup and Maintenance" clause of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (2001.)

[RSColonel_131st]

Stops pirates. There, I said it.

That's a benefit for the Publisher, not for the Customer. I don't want to trade in Customer Rights (like the ability to resell a game) for Publisher Benefits.

If that additional money earned would result in better, more-featured, longer games with more details, it might be a Customer Benefit.

But has the removal of printed manuals and large boxes resulted in better, cheaper games? Has the inclusion of online streamed advertisements ever resulted in better, cheaper games?

Everytime the Publisher saves money on Games, it usually makes the shareholders happy. Not the Customers. So where's the benefit for Customers when it "stops piracy"?

[martes86]

But has the removal of printed manuals and large boxes resulted in better, cheaper games? Has the inclusion of online streamed advertisements ever resulted in better, cheaper games?

'Nother good point there. :up:
I really miss the big boxes, big manuals, extra stuff within those boxes. It made you feel that you had something great in your hands. And while DVD boxes made it good for shelf space back home, I really miss the boxes. The manual that came with "The Ultimate Doom" was thicker than that of SH3. :down:

[Kaleun_Endrass]

So where's the benefit for Customers when it "stops piracy"?There is none. As you said it's for making shareholders happy and to maximize the profit. A shareholder invests to get a big yield on his shares. If he likes to, he wants his (increased) money back by offering his shares. If noone wants these and alot of other shareholders think of offering too then the share price descends, what could result in financial problems for the company up to bankruptcy.
So again, no benefits - just profit greed...

[TarJak]

Ah capitalism is a wonderful thing ain't it?:D

[RSColonel_131st]

To be clear: I don't dislike Capitalism, I agree that Companies need to protect their assets (Intellectual Property) and I'm happy for every Developer/Publisher Team that makes good money on good games.

I'm just saying that for me personally it is of no difference if a new system really stops piracy or not. If your favorite Burger Joint is selling you new Hamburgers made with a cheaper meat which saves them money, but you get less taste - will you see this as benefit?

And I firmly believe that there are methods to protect against piracy which are far less of an intrusion. If two or three big publishers worked together, they could by now have created an "Universal USB Dongle" that works offline, can be filled with licenses for new games online in a store or offline from a disk, the same license could even be used online when the dongle is not present (for example on a laptop).

The DRM that Steel Beasts 2 Personal Edition uses is such a dongle with these features. The only reason "dongles don't fly" in mass market products is the initial cost of the Dongle you have to buy once, but if multiple games used these it would quickly be offset.

The method used by these products is actually fairly similar to online DRM - you can only decode the game files by a key provided to you online or from the dongle. The whole idea behind these DRM systems is to have an decryption key stored somewhere safe where it can't be duplicated, either on a remote server where your access is your unique serial key/account or on a copy-proof bit of hardware. So in theory (and actual practice) it would be very much possible to create a combined offline/online system of authentication that would be 99% hack proof.


But obviously such a system, while much more beneficial to the customers, doesn't do what the publisher wants: Increased customer ties, increased marketing ability and removal of the second hand market. Whenever I see overbearing DRM used in a product, I see a publisher using Piracy as an excuse to squeeze more money out of legit paying customers.

Not that there isn't a problem with piracy - but these responses are disproportional to the cause to such a degree it makes you wonder...

[Hartmann]

The problem is that companies years ago invest 10 and want to obtain 50 and now with the same cost want 100 or 1000 of benefit

[trenken]

Name one "Pro" of an "always on" internet requirement for an offline game?

Name ONE. Be specific as to why it has to always have a connection, not just when it is required to send/receive data (say when saving the game).

Ive already gone through this. Ive mentioned the saving online which is convenient for me. Not only is my save kept away from my crappy computer, but I can just go to work, log into my SH5 account on my work machine and continue from where I left off at home.

Moving on, having your users constantly connected allows you to stream updates to them, sometimes invisibly. What this does for them is allow them to put together patches easily, its easier for them to implement, and therefore benefits us with them fixing bugs behind the scenes.

You can even do things such as update textures and whatnot just by streaming the updated files to us. You would get a prompt saying something like "a new build is avaiable". You can either restart SH5, or whenever you're ready.

Just because you have no played games that do this doesnt mean there are no benefits. You're assuming there's no benefits just because you dont personally know if there are, but I do. Im a fan of it, so while you continue to complain about everything in every thread every single day, ill be enjoying the game.

[TDK1044]

Let's say that ubisoft suffers an outage that takes out its servers.

The servers have to be re-booted, and downtime is say about 24 hours. Now you can't play the game you paid $50 for because an unknown issue took out the servers which are located in another State.

With Ubisoft, it's hard enough dealing with their buggy games that need significant patching and modding after release, but now add to that having to use their servers, and you are going to end up with a lot of casual gamers trying to take this game back to the store they purchased it at and then being told that they can't get their money back.

This is going to be an ugly experience for all in my view.

[Reece]

so while you continue to complain about everything in every thread every single day, ill be enjoying the game.Until they pull the plug cos it's no longer supported, yes that's right, the game can be thrown in the bin, enjoy!:O:

[Kaleun_Endrass]

having your users constantly connected allows you to stream updates to them, sometimes invisibly.You can even do things such as update textures and whatnot just by streaming the updated files to us.Besides the fact that I pre-ordered the game, didn't cancel it and being not on an opposite side towards you, but you are from another planet aren't you? Read your own post and tell me that streaming content invisibly, so-called updates and whatnot (you know what "whatnot" is? spyware), is a good thing... :nope:
When I read your posts the thought, that you worked on that DRM thing and now try to "sell it" to us, still haunts my mind...

[martes86]

Ive already gone through this. Ive mentioned the saving online which is convenient for me. Not only is my save kept away from my crappy computer, but I can just go to work, log into my SH5 account on my work machine and continue from where I left off at home.

You do play SH at work? Pray so that your boss doesn't notice. :shifty:
And I wouldn't say that online save is really a pro. It may be of your convenience, but it's definitely not mine nor probably a lot of people. A pro is something that does benefit the inmense majority of users. This doesn't because it relays on full-time connection, which basically almost noone likes.

[Onkel Neal]

To stop pirates it has to stop them, 100%. If it's cracked, it's cracked. The only possible mitigation would be if it took so long to crack, the next version was already out.


Agree 100%

That's a benefit for the Publisher, not for the Customer. I don't want to trade in Customer Rights (like the ability to resell a game) for Publisher Benefits.

Everytime the Publisher saves money on Games, it usually makes the shareholders happy. Not the Customers. So where's the benefit for Customers when it "stops piracy"?

I'm a customer and it benefits me to know that everyone else playing the game is paying for the game, just like me. Satisfaction is a benefit.

[frenema]

Ive already gone through this. Ive mentioned the saving online which is convenient for me. Not only is my save kept away from my crappy computer, but I can just go to work, log into my SH5 account on my work machine and continue from where I left off at home.

Oh please... We're adults and I'm sure we can take care of our own saved game files without relying on Big Brother to do it for us. If Ubisoft really cared about our save games they could have easily made online save an optional feature without turning it into a mandatory feature. The plain truth is that they don't care about our games and saved files, it's just another one of their DRM. It's a way for them to control us, not a 'service' they provide for us. Calling this a service is a shameless propaganda by Ubisoft.

The fact of the matter is that the inconvenience of the new OSP far outweigh the 'benefits' (what benefits?) that brings to the customers. And Ubisoft too will very likely lose as well unless they manage to trick enough people who buy games without reading the requirements first. So it's a lose-lose scenario for both parties.

You can state your own opinions all you want, but unless you can provide concrete reason as to what services the new OSP will bring that isn't possible without it your arguments are moot and pointless.

And if you have a 'crappy' computer with such a high risk of fail, maybe it's your time to move up and adapt to new technology along with the others with poor internet connection. :yeah:

[Pistitom]

Countless games are related to Ubisoft that means they never had any financial trouble that would've stopped them developing new games....SHV was/is finished in the middle of a financial crisis...that didn't stop them either...I'd like to know what impact piracy had on that company...It's just like the starving actors of Avatar, the latest record breaker..:woot::haha:

[razark]

Ive already gone through this. Ive mentioned the saving online which is convenient for me. Not only is my save kept away from my crappy computer, but I can just go to work, log into my SH5 account on my work machine and continue from where I left off at home.

You can do online saves without a constant connection. When you save, it can open a connection, upload the file, and close connection.

Moving on, having your users constantly connected allows you to stream updates to them, sometimes invisibly. What this does for them is allow them to put together patches easily, its easier for them to implement, and therefore benefits us with them fixing bugs behind the scenes.

You can even do things such as update textures and whatnot just by streaming the updated files to us. You would get a prompt saying something like "a new build is avaiable". You can either restart SH5, or whenever you're ready.

Nothing is allowed to update files on my computer unless I give it permission. I do not need, or want, something going through my files and changing things without my knowing. Furthermore, automatic updates would be the modders' worst nightmare. If things are constantly getting changed, that means the possibility that mods are going to constantly break. I'm not sure exactly how such a scheme would allow them to put patches together easier. Maybe it would be easier for the users to obtain, but see again my point about automatic updates.

Just because you have no played games that do this doesnt mean there are no benefits. You're assuming there's no benefits just because you dont personally know if there are, but I do. Im a fan of it, so while you continue to complain about everything in every thread every single day, ill be enjoying the game.

There may be benefits. The only one I can see is that it might stop pirates, for a while. I don't see why that should outweigh the company's responsibility to provide the customer with a usable product.

[tater]

Ive already gone through this. Ive mentioned the saving online which is convenient for me. Not only is my save kept away from my crappy computer, but I can just go to work, log into my SH5 account on my work machine and continue from where I left off at home.

One, your computer must be REALLY crappy, because I have a less wonderful broadband than you and I've not ever had a computer failure (and if I'm so poor as to not have a 10MB connection, I must be too poor to have a good computer ;) ). Two, as I said, anyone with broadband also has an off-site backup system like carbonite unless they are really dumb anyway—which saves all my save games as it saves everything else on my machines.

Moving on, having your users constantly connected allows you to stream updates to them, sometimes invisibly. What this does for them is allow them to put together patches easily, its easier for them to implement, and therefore benefits us with them fixing bugs behind the scenes.

In a world where devs make good games to start with (has yet to happen) auto-updates might be a feature. In a world where mods rule (the SH5 devs have rightfully crowed about how SH5 is even MORE moddable, something they themselves consider a feature), streaming little patches is a disaster. I have Steam. Empire Total War updated yesterday automatically (some tiny little thing I didn't notice even DLing) and broke all the mods. Now play is only possible for a few mods with hotfixes. Not a feature since with 100% certainty, any subsim we see will need heavy modding just to reach "acceptable" for anyone but a 13 YO twitch player.

Regardless, there is zero reason this needs to happen DURING PLAY. In fact, most games would not see the update unless the game restarted anyway, so streaming while you play gains you zero over before you play. DLing while you play for later installation is fine, but again, it only requires the net during the period of the DL.

You can even do things such as update textures and whatnot just by streaming the updated files to us. You would get a prompt saying something like "a new build is avaiable". You can either restart SH5, or whenever you're ready.

I wasn't prompted by steam yesterday.

Just because you have no played games that do this doesnt mean there are no benefits. You're assuming there's no benefits just because you dont personally know if there are, but I do. Im a fan of it, so while you continue to complain about everything in every thread every single day, ill be enjoying the game.

BTW, you failed completely to provide ANY pros that require a 100% on net connection.

Saves are not continuous, they are discrete. So for save games the game need only try and connect for XX seconds every hour, or when you save yourself on purpose. If it is set to autosave every 5 minutes, say, and hits a net burp, it could automatically skip that and try again in 5 minutes and not interrupt your play. Note that it could save locally, too, just to be safe.

Streaming updates? So you are playing when it is office hours for the devs, in the middle of an attack, and you need the new update NOW, not the next time you fire up the game? Many updates and mods break save games, BTW. If ANYTHING in the save file is changed it can crash the restored game. Not a feature, frankly.

I welcome a single pro that REQUIRES being online 100% of your gameplay time.

[Steeltrap]

So one of the benefits is auto-updating, hey?

Here's a current example of potential consequences:

I have Empire Total War. The vanilla version has the intellect of an amoeba with a hangover. I decided to d/l a mod for it, and it vastly improved the game. You'll see the mouthpiece of CA claiming they support mods, and how moddable the games are etc etc, but more on that in a sec......

CA decided to release more DLC (d/l crap...oops, I mean content). And here's the point:

When next I put Steam online (for other games), it will go and d/l all the data for these sh!tty extra units (mods have already done far better units etc for free) EVEN IF I DON'T BUY THE DLC. That's right, it just jams it into my computer whether I want it or not.

Yes, you're supposed to be able to tell Steam not to auto-update specific games. From what I can tell, they've disabled this on ETW. In other words, if CA puts some crap on Steam I d/l without any say in it at all. Thanks for chewing up 500Mb of my d/l cap for the month.

Now here's the final kicker. It conflicts with the mod that makes the game vaguely worth playing.

Make no mistake. This ISN'T a game-fix or patch, it's marketing sh!te.

That's right:
DLC I choose not to buy ends up d/l irrespective of my choice (I just can't activate it without paying, but they nicely load it anyway) where it stops a mod I DID choose from working.

So, to those who say how great these things are, can you please explain to me why it is great that my machine d/l a load of crap I don't want while breaking something I DID want?

To those who say "well the devs made a poor choice making your computer d/l it if you didn't buy it" I say this: they can make any choice they like, and they will, and YOU have no say in it so long as you want to play the game.

People wanted some illustrations? Try that one for size.....

[RSColonel_131st]

Ive already gone through this. Ive mentioned the saving online which is convenient for me. Not only is my save kept away from my crappy computer, but I can just go to work, log into my SH5 account on my work machine and continue from where I left off at home.

Well, they could make this an optional feature. It wouldn't require a constant net access, only for the time of saving the file, it could also be a "lazy synch" type protocol. This benefit (for many not even necessary since they only play on one system) can be done without the incurred penalty.

Moving on, having your users constantly connected allows you to stream updates to them, sometimes invisibly. What this does for them is allow them to put together patches easily, its easier for them to implement, and therefore benefits us with them fixing bugs behind the scenes.

Automatic patching in RoF means two things:

1) Whenever a new patch is ready, every user has to download it. Even if it's 400MB and you only have ISDN 128k, you need to download the new patch before you can load the game again.

2) If the patch changes something you don't like, you can't avoid it. You get the update "forced" onto your install.

Again, this could be optional.

Believe me, I put the same questions to the RoF developers over and over. There is no "always online" benefit that couldn't be done OPTIONAL without the penalties.

[RSColonel_131st]

I'm a customer and it benefits me to know that everyone else playing the game is paying for the game, just like me. Satisfaction is a benefit.

Unless your internet line goes dead and you realize that people are happily playing a cracked version while you can not use what you paid for.

Neal, have you previously used such systems? I have, Steam, with the Red Orchestra Game. And even though that had an "offline" option, in the six to 12 months I actively played, I had at least 6 to 10 issues with the game caused by Steam. Sometimes I would arrange for a game night with my oversea friends, meet up in ICQ - and find out I couldn't play the game since "Steam not available, please try again later".

Seriously, if you haven't experienced the downfalls of DRM, I can see why you don't mind the idea. But you should try first...

[RSColonel_131st]

To those who say "well the devs made a poor choice making your computer d/l it if you didn't buy it" I say this: they can make any choice they like, and they will, and YOU have no say in it so long as you want to play the game.

People wanted some illustrations? Try that one for size.....

Thanks, that really sums up the reality of customer relationship management with today's big publishers. They can and will do as much as we let them get away with.

And that is the core: No matter if there maybe is a tiny bit of benefit in "cloud-saved" gamestats or whatever, there is one MAJOR penalty: I'm willing to bet a 100 bucks that if UBI can get trough with this System, EA will follow in six months to a year. The games new on Steam will also start disabling "offline mode".

And within 3 years we all will be paying monthly subscription for 85% of the games on the market.


Really, I don't think it is possible to overstate the essence of this topic: If UBISoft can set this idea into practice for all their games and does not get hit in the wallet hard, they WILL set the precedence for everyone else and for subscription based gaming.

The problem is just that a lot of people, without thinking it trough, will support these developments for the tiny bit of virtual carrot dangled in front of their nose called "Online Savegames" or "Automatic Patching" or whatever the marketing team came up with yesterday to sell a reduction of rights as a "feature".

[COWBOY10]

And if you have a 'crappy' computer with such a high risk of fail, maybe it's your time to move up and adapt to new technology along with the others with poor internet connection. :yeah:


Sadly Frenema, I would love to adopt New Technology along with others who have Poor Internet Connections, But Myself Like many others, Don't have that Choice.

Believe Me its not by choice that im stuck with a 512 Connection that goes down in Peak times and after 1am. To change that, I will have to go and change the Phone exchange or build one nearer my House or Move to a city, Sadly dispite asking my Phone company many times to upgrade, for some reason they wont do it. I wish people would understand we are not all blessed with 100mb Broadband, Im sure we would all love it. I for one would jump at the chance, But Until the Goverment do something about this we are stuck. Dispite having to pay a Tax Just to have broadband Access. We are still stuck with the slowest broadband around.

I am all for a way to beat Pirates, BUT to assume we all are connected 24/7 with a good stable Internet, Is NOT the way forward. Have a look at DCS Blackshark, they have a limited number of installs, which you can save when you deinstall the sim. That way you can install as much as you like. One off connection to the internet to activate game, Works a treat, Great Sim and no probs. Just a little mess around when you deinstall Takes all of 5 mins. OK I know it wont beat pirates, to be honest I dont think Nothing will. BUT Its something.

Whatever gets chosen It will upset someone, and to be honest, Yes people will complain, Its Human Nature, BUT Theres a reason ROF has just dropped DRM, OK it was by the insistance of the European Seller, BUT it will increase sales, I promise you that. I know of 3 people, myself included who has now purchased ROF, just because DRM has been dropped.

I love Silent Hunter, I have been playing since SH1 all those years ago, and have NEVER missed a Version. I AM / Was looking forward to SH5, Hell in a sad way I still Am, BUt this DRM has me torn. I want it, I have a PC that will run it Beautifully. But an Internet connection thats unstable at most peak times and gets turned off most evenings after 1AM for a few hrs for server Mantance.

I havent even mentioned Fair Usage Policy yet though. Now I Dont know how this works, But im assuming that If you are permantly connected to Ubisoft servers, then you will be downloaded and uploaded your progress etc in the background. Now I tend to Sim in Real time, I start a Mission, and set it sailing all in Real Time, Yes it can take days for a contact, BUT it all adds to the atmosphere, Though getting woken up at 3AM by your PC shouting at you, does take some getting used to, and REALLY upsets the wife :) Hence why I only do it on my leave normally.

BUT How am I gonna be able to do that with a connection that A. Slows down if not dies at Peak Periods, B. Gets turned off after 1 AM for Mantance and C. Does not put me over the fair usage policy, Which i Beleve looks at how long you are connected for and how much has been downloaded.

But on a bright Side, Hey at least Ubisoft are aware of the uproar they have caused, OK Sounds like they are not bothered, BUT still Maybe we may get lucky, and they say in a few months, we have listened to our customers and because of that heres a patch to allow you to play offline.
:woot:

[Onkel Neal]

Neal, have you previously used such systems? I have, Steam, with the Red Orchestra Game. And even though that had an "offline" option, in the

Seriously, if you haven't experienced the downfalls of DRM, I can see why you don't mind the idea. But you should try first...

Oh, I won't argue with you, until I actually try it, I'm not going to champion it (or bash it). I have had zero problems with Steam, btw.

Zero.

Starforce, too.

[RSColonel_131st]

Well, maybe on the flip side... if UBI puts this into practice and fails miserable, it might set a precedence for everyone else too - on what NOT to do.

And the chances of them failing are pretty good, since even after years of development, Steam First Day Releases still overload the servers and keep people from playing the game they just bought in the shop and already have "physically" in hands.

[frenema]

Sadly Frenema...*snip*

Even though I myself have a decent internet connection, I definitely sympathize with you and others who can't play a single player game because of this online check crap; which is one of my reasons in deciding not to buy and support this title. I was merely using trenken's own argument against him to make a point, I meant no offense to you or others without stable internet.

[COWBOY10]

Even though I myself have a decent internet connection, I definitely sympathize with you and others who can't play a single player game because of this online check crap; which is one of my reasons in deciding not to buy and support this title. I was merely using trenken's own argument against him to make a point, I meant no offense to you or others without stable internet.


Sorry myself sir, I noticed that, just after I posted and went back a few pages. Doohh, Should really read all the posts first. Sorry And Dont worry No offence Taken, Though It did give me a way to voice my feelings on the DRM shambles :)

[tater]

BTW, trenken's other plus—which in no way requires an "always connected" state—being able to load up home save games at work, it already possible NOW. Your awesome net connection is always on (by definition to play these games)... share your save games folder.

Also, any streamed update will almost certainly void all previous save-games except those "in port."

This scheme is MORE LIKELY to trash a long run campaign than hard drive failure (which is VERY rare). Almost every update will nuke all your save games. Yeah!

[Webster]

BTW, trenken's other plus—which in no way requires an "always connected" state—being able to load up home save games at work, it already possible NOW. Your awesome net connection is always on (by definition to play these games)... share your save games folder.

Also, any streamed update will almost certainly void all previous save-games except those "in port."

This scheme is MORE LIKELY to trash a long run campaign than hard drive failure (which is VERY rare). Almost every update will nuke all your save games. Yeah!

i have heard they will be set to update by request and may not be automatic updates without a choice but for just how long you can wait to install them im not sure. if i understood the way it was meant was it would download updates while you play but not install untill you say ok. so im thinking it wont screw up your current game but the careers :06:


the only way i see this working in a way players will like it is if they update your career and save games too at the same time and they dont get corrupted

[tater]

The update delay needs to be arbitrarily long to give time to modders. Who wants to mod when at any moment a tiny patch might require you to make a whole new version in XX hours or have unhappy players?

Regardless, this update requirement similarly does not require that the player be online every moment while playing.

What OSP seems to require is a sort of "carrier" signal to home base. Packets every few seconds (miliseconds?) saying "I'm still here!" It's an absurd requirement, and Neal nailed the ONLY possible "pro" which is zero piracy if it works. The pro to the player is presumably more content later due to increased revenues, but increased revenues are in no way guaranteed by reduced piracy if customers don't like it and don't buy.

[Webster]

The update delay needs to be arbitrarily long to give time to modders. Who wants to mod when at any moment a tiny patch might require you to make a whole new version in XX hours or have unhappy players?

Regardless, this update requirement similarly does not require that the player be online every moment while playing.

What OSP seems to require is a sort of "carrier" signal to home base. Packets every few seconds (miliseconds?) saying "I'm still here!" It's an absurd requirement, and Neal nailed the ONLY possible "pro" which is zero piracy if it works. The pro to the player is presumably more content later due to increased revenues, but increased revenues are in no way guaranteed by reduced piracy if customers don't like it and don't buy.

well you keep assuming you will be able to mod files "offline" this DRM/OSP thing might require online modding

it sounds logical that this new setup "might" require you to mod only online using their online tools (again this is only my speculation) so if we are doing online modding, it will reduce the update replacing mod settings issue but it will still happen in some cases

[Onkel Neal]

What OSP seems to require is a sort of "carrier" signal to home base. Packets every few seconds (miliseconds?) saying "I'm still here!" It's an absurd requirement, and Neal nailed the ONLY possible "pro" which is zero piracy if it works. The pro to the player is presumably more content later due to increased revenues, but increased revenues are in no way guaranteed by reduced piracy if customers don't like it and don't buy.


Yep, that's the only real positive I know of (will know more soon). All the "great new features" jazz is probably typical market babble. It is nice that there is no activation limit, like Blackshark (7 installs).

[TarJak]

And within 3 years we all will be paying monthly subscription for 85% of the games on the market.And interestingly, THIS is one thing that will actually drive up the desire for cracked or pirate gaming.

Kids or adults with little income will not have any qualms about gaming outside the law if it is possible to do so to get their fix of a popular game and as has been stated many times here before any security that can be created can be defeated.

Sadly I think that further to the online tether, 85% of current PC gaming will be moved to consoles and we will be left with small independent PC releases only.

[Armistead]

I saw an article today that many have dropped cable/satelite services during the recession, up to 23% in some of the hardest hit states....

[Reece]

Originally Posted by RSColonel_131st http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/smartdark/viewpost.gif (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=1262647#post1262647)
And within 3 years we all will be paying monthly subscription for 85% of the games on the market.
Not Me!!:yep: Atleast there are a lot of other game companies that don't use this type of DRM, they may be the "value soft" type of games but some of those are still very enjoyable!:yep:

[Frederf]

Oh please... We're adults and I'm sure we can take care of our own saved game files without relying on Big Brother to do it for us. If Ubisoft really cared about our save games they could have easily made online save an optional feature without turning it into a mandatory feature. The plain truth is that they don't care about our games and saved files, it's just another one of their DRM. It's a way for them to control us, not a 'service' they provide for us. Calling this a service is a shameless propaganda by Ubisoft.

This is so spot on. Who was clamoring for some online save system? No one, that's who. I could see an extra-game layer of data like achievements or profile stats or whatnot but not the real (and huge?) game save files. I don't know about you but my SH3/4 games can get 500MB+ with replays.

[Brag]

This is so spot on. Who was clamoring for some online save system? No one, that's who. I could see an extra-game layer of data like achievements or profile stats or whatnot but not the real (and huge?) game save files. I don't know about you but my SH3/4 games can get 500MB+ with replays.

Storing these huge saves on servers by large numbers of gamers costs a lot money. Guess who Ubi will squeeze it from. :cool:

[tater]

This is so spot on. Who was clamoring for some online save system? No one, that's who. I could see an extra-game layer of data like achievements or profile stats or whatnot but not the real (and huge?) game save files. I don't know about you but my SH3/4 games can get 500MB+ with replays.

500MB saves continuously? Yowch.

[Frederf]

500MB saves continuously? Yowch.

Occasionally. You've never saved just before attacking a big convoy and then saved right after with the "save replay" tickbox on? That way you get a perfect replay of what went down while still having 100% difficulty on.

My worry is that online saves = UBI wants save games to be small in size for bandwidth/server reasons = game world is dumbed down so the saves are small files.

[Skullcowboy]

The thing that gets me is, as the consumers, shouldn't they be ASKING us what we think would 'provide added value' and 'enrich the gaming experience' instead of TELLING us? Or at least giving us the choice? Obviously they don't think so. This is how it is and you are going to like it. Period.
Well guess what. For me personally it adds absolutely no value and creates potential and foreseeable problems with the gaming experience. Not something I'll be spending any of my limited disposable income on for now.

[tater]

I never looked at the file size :)

Never did a replay, either.

[TarJak]

The thing that gets me is, as the consumers, shouldn't they be ASKING us what we think would 'provide added value' and 'enrich the gaming experience' instead of TELLING us? Or at least giving us the choice? Obviously they don't think so. This is how it is and you are going to like it. Period.
Well guess what. For me personally it adds absolutely no value and creates potential and foreseeable problems with the gaming experience. Not something I'll be spending any of my limited disposable income on for now.
Guess what! That's called marketing. You find the "value" to the customer in the product and sell that value. That the customer doesn't need or want it makes no odds.

[gutted]

Any software worth cracking can and WILL be cracked.

DRM is only an annoyance to the honest buyer. To those who pirate it, DRM means nothing at all, except maybe even more incentive to pirate it in the first place.

I've already quit buying steam only games, and i guess i'll quit buying ubi games as well.

Sorry, but im not putting up my hard earned dough for a product that i can't guarantee that i'll be able to play whenever i want. I lost my job last year, and had to give up the internet for awhile. All those steam games i had were rendered unusable.

This whole concept of merely "Licensing" a product is ridiculous. I pay $50 dollars for it, it's mine... get out of my way and let me enjoy it.

[Dave Kay]

Sad to say, but at this point I think it's clear that whatever it was The Devs actually wanted, UBI-Soft management had other ideas; SH5 is heavily targeted for the American market--- Welcome to America--- where it's all about "marketing."

Marketing defined: The ancient and mystic art of words and deeds, which cause people to think that they are actually getting SOMETHING for their money, when in fact they are not.

And I digress...:nope:

[gutted]

This quote from some website sums up my feelings on it:

"When you ask a gamer to pay for a game with online activation, you are asking for a great deal of trust. Which is outrageous, since the entire reason the game has activation is because you refuse to trust them."

[RSColonel_131st]

Not Me!!:yep: Atleast there are a lot of other game companies that don't use this type of DRM, they may be the "value soft" type of games but some of those are still very enjoyable!:yep:

Well yes, there's still hope with some publishers. Bohemia Interactive even dropped the basic CD-Check from Armed Assault 2 with the 1.05 patch. They purposely "unprotected" their game for the convenience of the paying customers. And that is after all the best military ground sim currently on the market, not a budget title.

Fallout3, the best RPG of last year, also came with Copy Protection only on the setup interface, the game executable itself runs without disk check.

So there are Triple-A titles made with little to no protection, still. I just hope if "always online" becomes en vogue with the big publishers, these smaller companies will not follow.


BTW, for example with Black Shark - if DCS would promise to patch out the Activation requirement a year or two after release, I would buy it tomorrow. I don't see why they can't remove online DRM after a given time if other companies can remove the last bits of copy protection fully.

[RSColonel_131st]

Any software worth cracking can and WILL be cracked.

DRM is only an annoyance to the honest buyer. To those who pirate it, DRM means nothing at all, except maybe even more incentive to pirate it in the first place.

Well, to be fair, neither Black Shark (Starforce-Based one-time activation) nor NeoQB Rise of Flight (always online) have been cracked yet. Okay, these are niche games for the flight simulation crowd, but I truly believe that an "always online" game can be protected - if you need a key to decrypt the game files, and that key is never stored on your system, always flushed after uses - good luck emulating that.

OTOH we know that for World of Warcraft, there exist black servers for pirate players. So if they were able to reverse-engineer a MMORPG server, who knows what these people might be able to do with UBI. Obviously mass market titles will push the incentive for cracker crowds.

[martes86]

[...] I truly believe that an "always online" game can be protected - if you need a key to decrypt the game files, and that key is never stored on your system, always flushed after uses - good luck emulating that.

Everything can be cracked. Just monitor the program disassembly registries (the orders sent directly to the CPU) at run-time, determine what does what, what you'd need to change, monitor all information sent/recieved, compile an all-assembly app, and there you go! Sure, I wouldn't be able to do that, because I don't know the assembly language or how to program it neither I have the knowledge of the low-level stuff needed to manipulate code at assembler level, but crackers (the good ones, not those that just write batch-files to do "format c:" in unprotected Windows PCs) can do all that if they know their thing, and more. There's no such thing as impossible in programming, there's just the lack of knowledge by those doing the programs.

Cheers :rock:

[Ragtag]

Well, to be fair, neither Black Shark (Starforce-Based one-time activation) nor NeoQB Rise of Flight (always online) have been cracked yet. Okay, these are niche games for the flight simulation crowd, but I truly believe that an "always online" game can be protected - if you need a key to decrypt the game files, and that key is never stored on your system, always flushed after uses - good luck emulating that.


Actually you are wrong about ROF.

[Dowly]

And wrong about the Black Shark (the cracking part).

[RSColonel_131st]

Actually you are wrong about ROF.

Well, I searched high and low (with the intention, of course, to buy the game and use the crack for conveninece) and while there are a ton of torrents available, none mentions that it can get past the online requirement.

Edited for Dowly: Same for Black Shark. I know there are torrents out but they are commented as "not working".

[Dowly]

Edited for Dowly: Same for Black Shark. I know there are torrents out but they are commented as "not working".

Then you arent looking hard enough. ;) BS was cracked shortly after it's release, only russian version is available (I'd guess due to it's genre), but the little dimwits have already made tutorials on how to change the game from russia to english, so there.

[Hartmann]

And wait until the first massive sales 3d arcade game uses this system , out of the niche market the protection is more vulnerable.
( a lot of hardcore gamers, teams, crackers, searching for a cure)

[Dowly]

And wait until the first massive sales 3d arcade game uses this system , out of the niche market the protection is more vulnerable.
( a lot of hardcore gamers, teams, crackers, searching for a cure)

March 16, Assassin Creed 2. 'nuff said. :haha:

[tater]

If ROF is cracked, then the ONLY argument in favor of OSP is gone.

[DeadlyWolf]

I've already quit buying steam only games, and i guess i'll quit buying ubi games as well.
O_o and why?

If I'm not wrong, "steam only games" can be also purchased through the "classic" dvd-release, and if not they only need to be dowloaded once (then you can make backups).
Furthermore a single player can be played in offline mode (no internet connection).
Steam remains a great service, and way above this UBI crap.

PS: I noticed SH V isn't available on steam yet, so I guess the UBI drm crap will be the only option available. Another ingenious decision by Ubisoft, congrats :)

[tater]

I bought an ETW DVD, and I had to load steam just to install it.

If I was less forum savvy (I had found the modding forums before I even bought it) I'd have been tearing my hair out to install it properly (it just crashes on install and no where tells you to install steam first, and in fact, even that doesn't work, it tries to DL the whole thing).

Major PITA, frankly.

Then the mod that makes it worth playing got nuked by an auto-update that was for some add-on I don't even have. So far my only Steam experience has been crap, frankly.