why? das boot question

[fromhell]

last night watched once again, das boot, and my question is, when captain goes to attack destroyer he goes into conning tower,and users the periscope in there while calling out his commands, yet when i see video of uboats attacking etc the captain uses the periscope in the command room where the navigator is. why the difference?:hmmm:

[Webster]

because das boot isnt anything but a movie with unreal stufff in it to make pretty screen images.


thats why many serious sub simmers get upset when people keep holding das boot up as some realism guide when it isnt.


it does a better job then most sub movies but its still just a movie and not real

[fromhell]

but why have 2 periscope stations?

[IanC]

Das Boot does it right doesn't it? Type 7 had the attack scope in the tower.

[IanC]

but why have 2 periscope stations?

2nd scope is the observation one.

[Webster]

2nd scope is the observation one.


the observation scope gives you a better upward view so its often used to check for planes before surfacing

[fromhell]

so the video of uboat captains in the command room with periscope and attacking would be type IX, correct?:hmmm:

[IanC]

Check this out http://www.uboataces.com/uboat-type-ix.shtml
Some type IXs had three scopes with one in the control room, others had two, both in the tower.

[karamazovnew]

so the video of uboat captains in the command room with periscope and attacking would be type IX, correct?:hmmm:

During the stormy DD attack, the Captain uses the Attack Periscope in the Conning Tower. It's the big shaft with a seat. The boat is a Type VII-C. You can clearly see that the Observation Scope is in the Control Room, at around minute 24 when Werner is shown around the boat, he takes a picture of a crew member siting near the periscope.

The attack scope was better suited for an attack as it was more stable, smaller and had better instruments and markings. Also, most Observation scopes did not have a high magnification feature. On some of them you couldn't even see the bearing. :haha: Later during the war the Observation scope became more and more advanced, as a backup in case the primary was damaged. Plus, having 2 sets of eyes scanning for ships is more efficient. That must be why they moved it to the conning tower. :hmmm:

Anyway, thread should be moved here: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=1185023

[fromhell]

thanks every one. very informative. you people certainly know your stuff.
will you be modding sh5?:yeah:

[arnesw]

because das boot isnt anything but a movie with unreal stufff in it to make pretty screen images.


thats why many serious sub simmers get upset when people keep holding das boot up as some realism guide when it isnt.


it does a better job then most sub movies but its still just a movie and not real

Yeah, that was a really useful answer. For the VIIC type sub that is portrayed in Das Boot, the captains attack station is in the conning tower. Did you read the book? I know it's got letters and stuff, but I'm sure you can make it if you try.

Real sub commanders I know commend the movie for being pretty accurate, but of course - what do they know as opposed to you - a serious sub simmer!

[Webster]

Yeah, that was a really useful answer. For the VIIC type sub that is portrayed in Das Boot, the captains attack station is in the conning tower. Did you read the book? I know it's got letters and stuff, but I'm sure you can make it if you try.

Real sub commanders I know commend the movie for being pretty accurate, but of course - what do they know as opposed to you - a serious sub simmer!

and you feel its perfectly fine to be rude to another member of this community, why?

[karamazovnew]

Das Boot is more accurate than the propaganda videos you've seen. To answer this part: "yet when i see video of uboats attacking etc the captain uses the periscope in the command room where the navigator is", you have to remember that the Conning tower is very crowded. During an attack, the cameraman would not have any room. Plus the standard procedure was to close the tower hatch and throw an oily rag at the cameraman if he bothered the crew during life and death situations :haha:

As to Webster's post, there have been many annoying questions (not like this one) about why some MODS didn't behave like some saw in Das Boot. That was annoying indeed and sparked fury against an otherwise superb movie.

[arnesw]

and you feel its perfectly fine to be rude to another member of this community, why?

Because I read you original answer as rude and unhelpful. Although I see my reply was over the top, and I apologize.

[d@rk51d3]

Because I read you original answer as rude and unhelpful.

x2


Glad it's all sorted now though. :up:

[ichso]

Yeah, that was a really useful answer. For the VIIC type sub that is portrayed in Das Boot, the captains attack station is in the conning tower. Did you read the book? I know it's got letters and stuff, but I'm sure you can make it if you try.

Real sub commanders I know commend the movie for being pretty accurate, but of course - what do they know as opposed to you - a serious sub simmer!

Actually, Lothar Günther Buchheim (the author of Das Boot) said for himself that he wasn't really pleased with the movie. It is to much action focused , the crew is showing no real life discipline and respect for one another and things like that. Things that where included just for creating action and emotions in the movie that weren't in the book. (But that's just how movies work, I guess ;)).

There was a pretty long text about this. Maybe I can dig it up again and translate it to post it somewhere around here, if its not already known. Its pretty interesting, really,

[TH0R]

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Das_Boot

Even though overwhelmed by the literally perfect technological accuracy of the film's set-design and port construction buildings, novel author Lothar-Günter Buchheim expressed great disappointment with Petersen's adaptation in a film review published in 1981, especially with Petersen's aesthetic vision for the film and the way the plot and the effects are, according to him, overdone and clichéd by the adaptation. As well he criticised the hysterical over-acting of the cast, which he called highly unrealistic, while acknowledging the cast's acting talent in general. Buchheim, after several attempts for an American adaptation had failed, had provided a script detailing his own narrative, cinematographical and photographical ideas as soon as Petersen was chosen as new director. It would have amounted in full to a complete 6-hour epic; however Petersen turned him down because at the time the producers were aiming for a 90-minute feature for international release. Ironically, today's Director's Cut of Das Boot amounts to over 200 minutes, and the complete TV version of the film to roughly 5 hours long.

Buchheim attacked specifically what he called Petersen's sacrificing of both realism and suspense in dialogue, narration, and photography for the sake of cheap dramatic thrills and action effects (for example, in reality one single exploding bolt of the boat's pressure hull would have been enough for the whole crew to worry about the U-boat being crushed by water pressure, while Petersen has several bolts loosening in various scenes).

Uttering deep concerns about the end result, Buchheim felt that unlike his clearly anti-war novel the adaptation was "another re-glorification and re-mystification" of the German WWII U-boat war, German heroism and nationalism. He called the film a cross between a "cheap, shallow American action flick" and a "contemporary German propaganda newsreel from World War II".

[THE_MASK]

So now do we mod sh5 to be like das boot because its not a simulation ?

[difool2]

The author must have watched a different film than I did. The final scene is about as anti-war as you can get, as is the abandonment of the swimming merchantmen after their tanker caught fire and sank, not to mention the Spanish buffet scene with a bunch of oblivious landlubber German officers or even Johan's breakdown. There was only one real diehard Nazi on board either, so I don't get this "glorification" of German nationalism stuff. The only thing I can think of is the dramatic music when the boat is attacking or sailing at flank speed, but of course that is how film works.

BTW it's playing right now (dubbed version) on an American cable channel called "MPLEX".

[trenken]

and you feel its perfectly fine to be rude to another member of this community, why?

I dont think he was trying to be rude, just explaining that you were wrong. You decided to bash Das Boot when many people that served on subs at that time commend the movie for its accuracy.

[Onkel Neal]

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Das_Boot As well he criticised the hysterical over-acting of the cast, which he called highly unrealistic, while acknowledging the cast's acting talent in general.

After seeing this film many, many times, including in the theater back when it was released and several times when it has been shown at the River Oaks art theater, I agree. I think there was a bit too much screaming and shouting. In my exerience in those kind of sheer terror situatiuons, (motorcycle crash, very rough airline turbulence) the jaw is clamped shut in fear. The verbal reaction is more like groans and grunts than yelling. But it is a damn fine movie, all the same.

[Letum]

I do wish there was a version without the music.
I really don't like the music. It's too over bearing.

[ETR3(SS)]

One thing to remember is, always take Hollywood with a grain of salt. Hollywood's job is to make movies that make money. Some parts may be realistic, others not, and yet it can still be "based on a true story." Personally I use Das Boot as the holy grail of realism for U Boats about as much as I use Crimson Tide for Tridents subs.

[IanC]

I think there was a bit too much screaming and shouting. In my exerience in those kind of sheer terror situatiuons, (motorcycle crash, very rough airline turbulence) the jaw is clamped shut in fear. The verbal reaction is more like groans and grunts than yelling. But it is a damn fine movie, all the same.

Good point, thinking back on one experience, it was indeed very very quiet. No time to scream type of thing, the yelling comes after.
Although I'm glad Petersen went for the multiple exploding bolts instead of just one, those were memorable movie moments.

[Seeadler]

Buchheim was also not very popular among the former German submariners.
They accused him that he has described life aboard a submarine partly false and has partly misrepresented the submarine war in his novels.

[Webster]

because das boot isnt anything but a movie with unreal stufff in it to make pretty screen images.


thats why many serious sub simmers get upset when people keep holding das boot up as some realism guide when it isnt.


it does a better job then most sub movies but its still just a movie and not real


das boot IS just a movie

das boot is NOT pure realism that you can base your idea of how it should be in real life

serious sub simmers do get upset when people keep saying this or that was or wasnt in das boot because das boot is a movie and its not a realism guide

das boot is a very good movie that is very realistic in "most" of what you see

because i choose to see das boot for what it is, a great movie but still just a movie, that is not rude or insulting but just stating the truth.

if you prefer to not hear the truth that is your choice but everything i said was correct

and for the record i love das boot but im not pretending its pure realism either.

[Schroeder]

One thing to remember is, always take Hollywood with a grain of salt. Hollywood's job is to make movies that make money.
Das Boot is a German movie, no Hollywood involved (at least AFAIK).;)

[martes86]

Das Boot is a German movie, no Hollywood involved (at least AFAIK).;)

True. Even though it goes as a Hollywood blockbuster, indeed it ain't. All crew were germans, the shooting was done in the studios at Munich and France (the port arrive and departure sequences), and the bunch of money it costed was in Deutsche Mark (BRD's currency at the time). Thing is that the movie was slated for release as a blockbuster, and it was a major success around the world, hence looking as it was Hollywood's creation.

About the movie itself, well, the shouting is certainly overdone, but certain procedures can be hold as very realistic, and the set was awesome.

Cheers

[Sailor Steve]

Das Boot is a German movie, no Hollywood involved (at least AFAIK).;)
"Hollywood" is sometimes used as a generic term for all corporate filmmaking. Hollywood has made some truly great films along with the crap. And British, French and German filmmakers have made some crap along with their great films. Das Boot was Wolfgang Petersen's ticket to Hollywood, and he's made some movies there that fall into both categories. The same is true for Jurgen Prochnow.

[Donner]

...yet when i see video of uboats attacking etc the captain uses the periscope in the command room where the navigator is. why the difference?:hmmm:

The dramatic images of a skipper at the attack scope could not be accomplished in the close quarters of the conning tower. The German kriegsberichters needed the 'extra' room afforded by the control room to use their motion picture cameras effectively. :know:

[IanC]

The dramatic images of a skipper at the attack scope could not be accomplished in the close quarters of the conning tower. The German kriegsberichters needed the 'extra' room afforded by the control room to use their motion picture cameras effectively. :know:

Exactly, hence the 'attack' from the observation scope :lol:

[martes86]

I can tell you that the Attack Periscope of a Type VII is within a very very small tin space.

[karamazovnew]

I think there was a bit too much screaming and shouting. In my exerience in those kind of sheer terror situatiuons, (motorcycle crash, very rough airline turbulence) the jaw is clamped shut in fear. The verbal reaction is more like groans and grunts than yelling.

I've given a lot of thought to my moments of terror. I remember them so well that it's like watching a movie. Long periods of tension can make you end up like Johann (which acted very well). But in sudden events everyone just freezes. I don't think that a movie can present such moments without a bit of screaming as the viewer simply can't understand it. A sub sailor always expected a sudden hull breach, so ,every time a bomb went off, he actually thought that the sub itself had imploded. He didn't have the luxury to think "well, it's only been 30 minutes since the movie began, it's clear we won't all die now, I just hope a pipe doesn't fall on my head". His worst fears became true for a few seconds during each blast. As far as "terror" goes, I doubt there's anything worse than a depth charge attack. Even playing Silent Hunter, I sometimes get so involved that it feels like a horror-game.

[Safe-Keeper]

How is this an SH5 question?

[Catfish]

Hello,

i'd say "Das Boot" is the most realistic movie about submarines that has ever been made, and it is not even boring to watch :03:
It is not a Hollywood production, exactly like "Stalingrad" and "Downfall".

The only scene that is technically wrong is when some rivets became loose at greater depths - the inner tube where the crew and engines were was completely welded, so no rivets would become loose. Only the outer hull which was never under pressure (double hull - outer pressure=inner p.) was riveted, and even this only partially.

The attack periscope was indeed located up in the tower, while the (bigger) observation 'scope was located down in the central bridge (control room). Most later VII types would turn the attack 'scope with electric motors, via pedals, and the commander sat in a steel seat, turning with the scope. Buchheim makes a remark about that where Lehmann-Willenbrock plays roundabout in the tower, with the humming electric engines being heard down in the control room.

The behaviour of the crew was spot on in Buchheim's book, if not in the film - which is why Buchheim was not too enthusiastic about it.
In the extended version there is a scene where Buchheim is told not to take pictures of the crew early in the patrol, before they grew beards, so that Mr. Churchill should not find out about german "children going to war", and being "even more frightened" as Willenbrock said with a wink.

In the book (close to the end) there is also a scene described, where the badly-damaged U-96 almost sinks a neutral spanish passenger ship, by mistake. When Buchheim asked commander Lehmann-Willenbrock what would have happened if they'd really sunk it, the answer was "you have to make clear that it does not appear in any log book or KTB, or would be told by survivors". Pretty clear what he meant.

But the only incident when german submariners ever really shot at castaways/survivors of a sunken ship, was Kapitaenleutnant Eck and his IXD/2, at survivors of a greek merchant. He did it out of despair of being detected, in april 1945, due to the horror stories told to him by older commanders, about the allied capabilities and detection methods, and suvivors betraying their position, or course.
He survived the war after beaching his boat, and was sentenced to death and shot, after the Nuremberg trials, because of having committed a war crime. Makes you think about the pacific.
If you want to see a real bad propaganda film watch this "Battle in the Atlantic" with Humphrey Bogart, where an arrogant and pompous clean-shaven U-boat commander, with a white silk scarf, personally guns down survivors and lifeboats.
Another good example of concocted history is this infamous Hollywood-"U-571". I heard US Navy veterans gave it standing ovations, after the premiere.

The discipline aboard german boats was generally strict, but more in a voluntarily way. There are some few reports (i know of two) that claim that there was panic, but it would mostly be only one man whose nerves gave up - like it was shown in the film.
The former crew members who nowadays say such things never happened, probably did not experience it on their own boat, and indeed it seems it did not happen often. But then more than two thirds of the U-boat men did not survive the war.

Now there's no point in accusing others in not knowing all about german submarines that went to war some 70 years ago. I surely don't ;)


Greetings,
Catfish

[Nickolas]

How is this an SH5 question?

It's not. But i don't think that it is completely unrelated to this forum tho.

edit:
@Catfish

but Der Untergang isn't a hollywood movie either. And as far as i know Stalingrad comes from germany too.

[Catfish]

Hello Nickolas,
thanks, i know - tried to change the above post - english is not my mother tongue :oops:

Greetings,
Catfish

[ryanglavin]

. In my exerience in those kind of sheer terror situatiuons, (motorcycle crash, very rough airline turbulence) the jaw is clamped shut in fear.
You've been through alot, eh neal?

[Sailor Steve]

In my exerience in those kind of sheer terror situatiuons, (motorcycle crash, very rough airline turbulence) the jaw is clamped shut in fear.
As does the sphincter.

On the other hand I was involved in a very bad car crash five years ago. I saw it coming, and I screamed real good. But then I tend to be a little vocal when I slip and fall on an icy sidewalk, too.:oops:

[Jimbuna]

The classic ar$e anchor/magnet....always trying to adhere itself to something for support :DL