Is SH5 even a simulation or arcade?

[Greyghost]

I have been extremely disappointed over the last couple of weeks just as many others have been as well. Now I see the latest bit of info that just irritates me even more and starts to crush the little bit of hope I had left for this sim. According to Ubisoft's own game listing Silent Hunter 5 is not even listed as a Simulation but as, get this, Action, Adventure. :damn: I think to myself maybe this is a new way of describing the genre yet low and behold just above it is the game, sorry simulation "Imagine - Sweet 16" I don't won't an arcade game which is one reason I never bothered with "Enigma- Rising Tide" This is just another kick in the......:nope::nope::nope::nope:

http://www.ubi.com/US/Games/Search.aspx?cal=cs

[Westbroek]

Don't overestimate the expertly researched and immaculately crafted simulator: Best Friends Tonight.
I'm sure "Imagine-Sweet 16" is good, but I'm a long time BFT fanboy and it kills me that it's not getting the hype it deserves.

No but seriously, yeah, SH5 is an arcade game. Not that that will keep us from talking about it on this Naval Sim forum. Nor should we. Hopefully, with patches, mods, loving care, and a little imagination it will grow up to be a world class (regional class at least) honest to Ra simulator.

[karamazovnew]

Unlike SH1, (and SH2 a bit) SH3, SH4 and SH5 are not simulators. They have as many sim features as Half-life has "social-development" features. It's the overall game experience, the tactic and feeling behind it all that makes the games worth playing. SH is almost like Guitar Hero in that respect... easy to pick up, lots of difficulty if you want to, but not "the real thing". My guess is that if you've liked SH3 or SH4, you'll like this one too. And a bit of modding always helps in the end. :03:

[Letum]

There where some aspects that aspired to realism in all the SH games.
There will be some aspects that aspire to realism in SHV.

We know already that there are some new features that are not trying to be realistic.

That is al that can be said on the matter atm.

[Mud]

If it is arcade then they surely picked the wrong title because it won't fit in the Silent Hunter series.
I think the bashing and smashing would be totaly different if it was an other title so we didn t expect a successor of the series, except for the OPS maybe.
The fog thickens ........

[Boris]

Do people even still know what arcade means? SH5, even with all that we've seen, is going to be waaaaaay closer to a simulation than an arcade game.

Arcade games are friggin boxes with plastic guns that you put money into. I know some of you are using the term "arcade" just to overexaggerate and make SH5 seem worse than it is, but come on!

Even though there may be some little bits than seem unrealistic at this point SH5 will still be more simulation than 99% of games. SH5 is a lot of things, but it is NOT arcade.

[Letum]

Do people even still know what arcade means? SH5, even with all that we've seen, is going to be waaaaaay closer to a simulation than an arcade game.


Well, there is a continuous spectrum all the way from simulator to arcade. It's all relative.

[TDK1044]

It's certainly not a sim. Whether it's an arcade game remains to be seen.

[Jimbuna]

Could yet turn out to be a hybrid....an arcadulator :hmmm:

[JScones]

Jimbuna, I believe "simulcade" appears to be the new term for such things.

[urfisch]

its arcade...without mods...

[longam]

Shooting and killing stuff, I'd call that action.

[Mud]

Lara Croft without the boobs.



Oh wait .............. modders :yeah:

[Arclight]

Could yet turn out to be a hybrid....an arcadulator :hmmm:
Here I was thinking that was a given. :doh:

Were 3&4 any different? (just asking in general, really)

[sergbuto]

Could yet turn out to be a hybrid....an arcadulator :hmmm:
or sicade, maybe

[Egan]

Every sub sim ever released I hold up and test against that yardstick of submarine simming goodness, the daddy of them all: Tom Clancey's SSN.

I admit, that yardstick isn't very high, but I find it to be handy checklist: Do I 'fly' the sub like an aeroplane? Do I have to sit through some of the very, very, very, very worst video segments in the history of computer gaming? Are the developers notes in the manual basically a long and rather mad excuse, based around the idea that sim players have the situational awarenes of a rabbit in a chinmmey?

If the answer to all of these is 'no' then we have a sim. Huzzah!

[oscar19681]

I have been extremely disappointed over the last couple of weeks just as many others have been as well. Now I see the latest bit of info that just irritates me even more and starts to crush the little bit of hope I had left for this sim. According to Ubisoft's own game listing Silent Hunter 5 is not even listed as a Simulation but as, get this, Action, Adventure. :damn: I think to myself maybe this is a new way of describing the genre yet low and behold just above it is the game, sorry simulation "Imagine - Sweet 16" I don't won't an arcade game which is one reason I never bothered with "Enigma- Rising Tide" This is just another kick in the......:nope::nope::nope::nope:

http://www.ubi.com/US/Games/Search.aspx?cal=cs

If it really turns out to be an arcade game. Then i think the dev,s expect the community finish there job and mod it into a hardcore sim.

[brandtryan]

From Websters: (Italics mine)

sim⋅u⋅la⋅tion  /ˌsɪmhttp://sp.ask.com/dictstatic/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngyəˈleɪhttp://sp.ask.com/dictstatic/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngʃən/ [sim-yuh-ley-shuhhttp://sp.ask.com/dictstatic/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngn]
–noun

1.imitation or enactment, as of something anticipated or in testing.

2.the act or process of pretending; feigning.

3.an assumption or imitation of a particular appearance or form; counterfeit; sham. brutal!

4.Psychiatry. a conscious attempt to feign some mental or physical disorder to escape punishment or to gain a desired objective. I like this one, hehe, as in when I faked a fever to get out of going to school

5.the representation of the behavior or characteristics of one system through the use of another system, esp. a computer program designed for the purpose. most relevant, I suppose.

[brandtryan]

So if we use definition #5 above--the question then, is what "system" is the computer system trying to emulate? This is at the heart of all "realism" and "simulation" debates.

For example, pre-9/11 I was fortunate enough to fly a real simulator in a training center for commercial pilots. Obviously they simulated every mechanical/electrical/hydraulic/navigation/avionics, etc. systems. But they ALSO simulated "scenarios" that might happen, e.g., flame-out, landing gear failure, even now I hear, terrorist attacks. Now the problem is, these "scenarios" can't really be called "systems", unless you call the entire human condition a "system" (OK, getting deep here. Hey, new bumper sticker "Submariners are Deep!"

Anyway, back to SH5. Hopefully what we'll end up with, is a high-fidelity simulation of the submarine's systems, as we had in the past titles. In addition to this--they are trying to bring in a lot of "scenarios" to make the whole title more conducive to the human condition system. That is, where to attack, what to attack, when to attack, how to deal with other humans, with their own "human conditions", etc.

In fact, I think the airlines would say that their goal of having their simulators, is more about the extraneous systems, that is, a terrorist, or a terrible storm, or a mechanical system FAILING, than it is about teaching pilots the systems of the aircraft. After all, they can do that in the real thing--but they CAN'T have a terrible storm appear, or ask them to land the aircraft with no gear. Believe me, the cost in electricity to run those simulators is probably more than fuel, etc. to do training in a real aircraft. (I think they said their electric bill for a month was five figures or more because of the simulators). In addition to being able to actually fly the simulator for 5 minutes or so (take off from Laguardia, cruise around,and then land) I got to sit jumpseat during two pilot's tests. The tests were centered around things going wrong, both internal systems, and "human condition" systems--not whether or not the engine startup sequence was perfect.

Anyway, going off point here. So a simulation is one system trying to represent the characteristics of another. SHV is trying to represent the systems of the Type VII submarine, and specifically, the external conditions from a particular time in history. The developers attempted this in all of the titles, but I think the focus is now on those external systems, more than ever before. One could say they have the sub systems down pretty good--and that they would be frivilous not to bring that knowledge forward in any new titles, albeit, as an option for the hard-core gamer. Their focus on the external things, just like the real flight simulator I was in, will hopefully bring a new audience into the genre--as it is these sort of things (experiencing WW2, killing things, sailing, etc.) that the masses seem to spend their hard-earned cash on. Plus, it's a bonus for the hard-core guys, AS LONG AS THE SUB SYSTEMS ARE KEPT IN TACT, OR EVEN ADVANCED FURTHER.

Creepy PS: when I took off from Laguardia, I asked my bro-in-law if I could fly in between the Twin Towers (remember, this was pre- 9/11). He said go ahead, but if I hit one of them, it would NOT be a pleasant experience in the simulator--would get thrown around in cockpit, etc.

I turned 90 degrees, split the towers, and then came in for a decent landing--ok, I bounced once--but I did land safely. Hardest part was having to reverse engines, which I wasn't used to--as fighter aicraft (my only experience in sims) don't have a need for this feature.

Whew, long winded. Oh--and don't forget the adage: "If you try to make the perfect simulator, you end up building the thing itself"

[Boris]

An arcade game is a coin-operated entertainment machine, usually installed in public businesses such as restaurants (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restaurant), public houses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_house), and video arcades (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_arcade). Most arcade games are redemption games (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redemption_game), merchandisers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchandisers) (such as claw crane (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claw_crane)), video games (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game), or pinball (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinball) machines.

SH5 is NOOOOOOT and never will be an arcade game. It's not even anywhere near the level of basic of FPS games, or jump and run games... and not even these games are arcade games. Games of the "arcade genre" have incredibly short levels, and it's all about high scores and stuff.

How in the hell can SH5 be called an arcade game?
SH5 will not be an ultra-realistic sim, but it's still a simulation.

[Jimbuna]

Jimbuna, I believe "simulcade" appears to be the new term for such things.

You've obviously got the pre modded version :DL

[Jimbuna]

or sicade, maybe
I thought that was an energy drink :DL

[Rosencrantz]

Not arcade, nor sim, IMHO.


-RC-

[Webster]

im sure i will get poo pooed for saying this but i saw a thread showing UBI had listed the game as a Action-Adventure genre and i think that wasnt a mistake on their part but the truth.

think about everything objectively that we have seen and heard (from UBI) about the game and it doesnt look too strong in the sim part of the game and its certainly not arcadish even though it is "gamey" so my personal thoughts are that this will end up being a mass effect style game where you have to interact with the crew to build relationships that effect how your boat functions so it will be a life on a submarine sim and not be much of a submarine sim game.

if anyone hasnt seen mass effect game its not like the commercials, you have a few brief moments of action then you spend so much time talking to people and walking around doing BS a person like me who wants action will get bored very quickly and uninstall the game. from the way they have talked about interacting with the crew i think this is UBI version of the way mass effect works.

[Arclight]

So it's gonna be a RPG? :lol:

Sorry, but I doubt that. :-?

[Boris]

im sure i will get poo pooed for saying this but i saw a thread showing UBI had listed the game as a Action-Adventure genre and i think that wasnt a mistake on their part but the truth.

think about everything objectively that we have seen and heard (from UBI) about the game and it doesnt look too strong in the sim part of the game and its certainly not arcadish even though it is "gamey" so my personal thoughts are that this will end up being a mass effect style game where you have to interact with the crew to build relationships that effect how your boat functions so it will be a life on a submarine sim and not be much of a submarine sim game.

if anyone hasnt seen mass effect game its not like the commercials, you have a few brief moments of action then you spend so much time talking to people and walking around doing BS a person like me who wants action will get bored very quickly and uninstall the game. from the way they have talked about interacting with the crew i think this is UBI version of the way mass effect works.

Yay!!! I love Mass Effect :O:

[Jimbuna]

I sincerely hope your wrong :o

Otherwise, I can see you being one of the busiest people around these parts :DL

[Iron Budokan]

Well, there is a continuous spectrum all the way from simulator to arcade. It's all relative.

Excactly. And from what we know so far SHV is closer to the end of the arcade spectrum than the sim side.

Case in point: that ridiculous periscope view. That's TOTAL arcade.

[Sailor Steve]

I think the periscope view is great! All that stuff around it? Not so much.

[brandtryan]

Continuing from my last past, in response to later posts--consider this:

What media/information/Videos/Websites do you think they are going to focus on to get to the most people, and get the most sales? The arcade crowd. So they are showing those aspects (rightly so). That does NOT mean that the hardcore systems are not in there, they are just not showcasing them, as that might potentially scare off newbies.

As a matter of fact--the rantings and ravings of this board, if seen by an newbie, would be a relief to a newbie--insofar as they would come away from the board thinking they might just be able handle this "sim".

From a MARKETING perspective, Ubi doesn't care about our moans and groans. They know that if ONE person from this forum buys this sim, and it is full of wonderful full realism/systems options, that the secret is out, and we will all be fighting for the first copy, and all will be forgiven.

Software development goes in cycles. They are probably done with the code (Gold) and now the phase is marketing. Let them market to the newbies. Just keep fingers crossed that our simulated sub systems are still in there.

[Webster]

I think the periscope view is great! All that stuff around it? Not so much.


check out the video i stickied (watch this and enjoy), it shows real life footage of the sub pens with the swimming pool smooth water you talked about :up:

thought you might want to take a screen shot of it

[ryanwigginton]

A subsim with the same fidelity as EDs DCS Black Shark... Imagine. If they can do it with a modern attack helicopter only recently declassified, a WWII sub should be a breeze. Maybe UBI can employ ED for SHVI! :know:

[Subnuts]

SH5 will not be an arcade game. It will not be a simulation.

It will be...on the edge of simulation. Just 'cus that sounds cool.

[IanC]

or sicade, maybe

Jimbuna, I believe "simulcade" appears to be the new term for such things.

Could yet turn out to be a hybrid....an arcadulator :hmmm:

I'm liking simulacadulator.

[Randomizer]

I like arcadeulator, it sounds dirty...

Nobody will solve the sim vs game question, it's all relative and subjective. Still, a simulator allows you to replicate real world problems and solve them using real world techniques.

I would submit that SH1-4 and even AOD could function as an attack teacher as opposed to a submarine simulator. All of them provide reasonably accurate representations of the target acquisition means available and reasonably good models of WW2 diesel submarine performances. Therefore planning and executing approaches for a torpedo attack, night surfaced or daylight submerged can be successful using real world tactics and techniques.

On the other hand, oft times fudging the tactics or attempting to reinvent the approach wheel will often get a player into trouble at high "realism" levels. This is the reason why the modders' circular slide rules and other plotting aids, based on their WW2 RL counterparts work in SH3 and 4.

Jury needs to remain out on SH5 until it's in the hands of players but given that out of the box the "special abilities" of some of the crew have no similar real-world similies, I doubt that it will have much simulator value.

Unless one is quizzing Cookie over the soup of the day.

[fromhell]

its a game with a bit sim in it.for the real thing stand in icy water and have someone throw the odd bucket of water over you.

[MasterCaine]

Is SH5 even a simulation?

Just watch the movie Avatar. That should answer your question. Pretty CGI, with little else to offer. All fluff, no filling. That's the direction most movies and games are heading towards these days to satiate the shallow, ADD masses. :down:

[the_belgian]

i've been playing airsoft over the last few years and there you have a simular "thing" going on.
some play it in the weekends to forget about work or school and are happy when they can hit as many as possible from the other side(call it arcade).
on the other hand you have the milsimmers,who even train in team during the week on every aspect that a real-life soldier would.at an event they don't go for the kills but rather try to acieve the given mission goals(call it sim).
then there is a third group who do want to use tactics and so on like the "real ones" but still will go for a balance between kills and completing misions although they go for a certain degree of realism.
i think when silent hunter 5 was airsoft it could be placed into this third group.:know:

[Arclight]

Agreed, nice analogy. :salute:

[Sailor Steve]

I would submit that SH1-4 and even AOD could function as an attack teacher as opposed to a submarine simulator. All of them provide reasonably accurate representations of the target acquisition means available and reasonably good models of WW2 diesel submarine performances. Therefore planning and executing approaches for a torpedo attack, night surfaced or daylight submerged can be successful using real world tactics and techniques.

On the other hand, oft times fudging the tactics or attempting to reinvent the approach wheel will often get a player into trouble at high "realism" levels. This is the reason why the modders' circular slide rules and other plotting aids, based on their WW2 RL counterparts work in SH3 and 4.
That is a very good summation. If it can be played in a fashion that awards real-life tactics and punishes wrong tactics and procedures, then it is at least a good simulation game, if not a true simulator. And that's the best we can hope for in this world, I think. With SH3 it is possible to get at least a feeling of what it was like, and play in a fashion that lets the 'realism' player talk about empty patrols and discuss properly setting up a shot, yet lets the 'arcade' player brag about his 250,000-ton patrols, and that's part of what makes it great. SH4 comes close to that, and could exceed and supplant SH3 with the right touches.

If SH5 can do the same, and take both to a new level, then it will be worth it.

That's a big if, though.

[Platapus]

Two developers bump in to each other

"Hey, you got your simulator in my arcade game"

"No, you got your arcade game in my simulator!"

SH5, two great tastes that totally suck together. :D

[Elder-Pirate]

EB Games is calling SHV a Simulation but SHIV was action and SHIV Gold was strategy. :hmmm:

I don't think they know their selves. :nope:




http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y116/oleman/whoknows.jpg

[Sailor Steve]

:rotfl2:

Well, there we have it! It's three - three - three games in one!

[nikimcbee]

Two developers bump in to each other

"Hey, you got your simulator in my arcade game"

"No, you got your arcade game in my simulator!"

SH5, two great tastes that totally suck together. :D

Must...resist...telling...E:RT joke now:D:06::hmmm:

[IanC]

I always liked to call the SH series combat simulators, that is they simulate combat situations and environment. Falcon 4 would be both a combat and an F-16 simulator.

[Jimbuna]

@Elder-Pirate

Classic http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/thumbsup.gif

[martes86]

EB Games is calling SHV a Simulation but SHIV was action and SHIV Gold was strategy. :hmmm:

I don't think they know their selves. :nope:

[ONLINE STORE PIC]



You can't trust that stuff these days. :nope:

[Brag]

It is a strategic simulation or arcadian bliss with DRMs included :haha::haha::haha:

Everyone sing with me:
I like marching to the DRMs boom boom
I like marching to the DRMs boom boom

Moo

[FIREWALL]

Besides all the other stuff discussed on other threads.

Why would I pay $50.00 for a game that will if at all take about a year of modding to even be close to what I already have.

If SH5 so far as to what we know or have seen is any example. It scares me to think of SH6. :haha: