Why SH3 ...

[Mikhayl]

---

[java`s revenge]

We have modders ... :D

[Webster]

wasnt the time for this thread to be posted like 6 months ago?


i mean other then a way to talk about something other then the DRM/OSP

[Mikhayl]

wasnt the time for this thread to be posted like 6 months ago?


No, because 6 months ago nobody was saying "SH5 sucks, I'm off to play SH3+supermod".

[fromhell]

...and stuff I hope SH5 will adress.

Aside from the many little (or not so little) details that SH3 missed, there's some big gameplay flaws that kill the game for me:

-Boring navigation. You click on the map to put waypoints up to your patrol zone, then hit the time compression and just wait until something happens. Something being either an aircraft spotted, or a ship spotted. This brings me to the next point:

-Boring u-boat simulation. Let's face it, this aspect is almost totally absent from SH3. No separate engine management. No meaningful use of compressed air. No actual ballast. The boat handles like an arcade game. Forward, back, right, left, dive, surface, level. Trim dives aren't necessary, engines don't overheat, nothing breaks down.
The bottom line is, there's absolutely nothing to do in game between the moment you leave port and the moment you make contact with the enemy, except for the aforementionned waypoints and pressing the time compression key. Boring. You might as well have a random mission generator and start within visual range of enemy shipping.

-Boring campaign. Sure, it's somewhat randomized, enemy skills and ASW evolve, but then what? There's the obvious "I sunk Nelson 5 times between September 1939 and June 1940". And the fact that your presence in the game world is meaningless. If you pick a sweet spot in the Western Approaches, you can hammer enemy convoys here with no actual enemy reaction, then go back home, and on your next patrol do the exact same thing.
Basically after some hours of play, you know where to go and where not to go, and these spots only slightly change as the campaign scripting is altered over the years.

-Boring torpedoes. Manual targetting was ok in SH3, and mods have made it a very strong point of SH3 (strongest IMO). But the torpedoes are much too reliable (=boring). They can detonate too early, ok. But that's it. They maintain depth perfectly, they can breech the surface in rough weather and keep going straight like nothing is happening, they don't deviate one bit from their course (not even an abstract representation of sea currents).
If you read on Prien's attack of Scapa Flow, only 2 out of 5 torpedoes hit the static targets. He says "The torpedo misses I explain due to faults of course, speed, and drift. In tube 4, a misfire."


SH5 will adress the campaign and that's a big immersion booster.
The presence of the whole crew and some tidbits in the crew descriptions on the SH5 website bring some hope regarding the boringness while transitting to your patrol zone (mentions of trim dive, navigator's role...)
Nothing yet regarding targetting and torpedoes

i totally agree. i also feel the same with sh4.
in sh4 if watch crew got injured then all the watch crews where injured.:damn:

[onelifecrisis]

@Webster
We didn't have any information six months ago. We now have some and the rest will hopefully come soon.

@Mikhayl
I agree with your points, except the boat handling. I don't mind if they want to spice up the realism of the way the boat handles (i.e. the physics) but I still want to just say "go forward" and let my crew do the rest. I have no interest in trimming ballasts or whatever; personally I want a strategic/tactical game/simulation, not a "sailing" simulator.

[Webster]

but my point was 6 months ago there was at least a small chance some of these wants might be looked at by the devs and able to make it into the game, but now they are most likely way beyond any possible inclusions into future game patches

[AVGWarhawk]

Boring torpedoes. Manual targetting was ok in SH3, and mods have made it a very strong point of SH3 (strongest IMO). But the torpedoes are much too reliable (=boring). They can detonate too early, ok. But that's it. They maintain depth perfectly, they can breech the surface in rough weather and keep going straight like nothing is happening, they don't deviate one bit from their course (not even an abstract representation of sea currents).
If you read on Prien's attack of Scapa Flow, only 2 out of 7 torpedoes hit the static targets. He says "The torpedo misses I explain due to faults of course, speed, and drift. In tube 4, a misfire."



SH4 had this with exception of current affecting the torps. I hope that found it's way in.

[Mikhayl]

I agree with that, I wouldn't want to spend hours turning valves all around the boat either. But I'd like to have at least something to do during the cruise, otherwise we might as well start patrols at sea North of the Shetland.

In SH3 you can do "make believe" trim dives to break the boredom but there's no in game incentive to do so: your boat is always perfectly level at periscope depth and maintains it flawlessly, which another "boring" factor.

[The Enigma]

When this is all true, tell why are you then buying the SH series?
There must be something appealing to you in the games (or else you wouldn't be buying/playing them)?

[Schroeder]

Err, at less than two knots your boat won't maintain it's depth that well with GWX, at least not the chosen depth.

[Mikhayl]

Maybe you're right Webster, but I doubt it would change anything and I didn't think about that 6 months ago anyway :)

Now I thought a lot about this while "playing", especially the navigation part.

As I said in the OP, in SH3 (and worse in SH4) navigation is just plain boring. Set points, crank up TC, wait contact. In the Pacific even at 4096TC you can wait over 15 minutes to get anything to do!

Now, imagine a system with no GPS waypoints and no sub icon (at 100% realism).
You have two options, either full manual navigation or assisted by the AI (just like targetting in SH3).

You start from port so you know where you are, you go the map, and place a "waypoint" on the map, but there's no "wire" between the points and your boat.

In full manual, you set course and you calculate the time/speed/distance to get to that point, set your speed, set the amount of time, and when you're ready you don't use time compression but rather a "warp" key like in most combat flight simulators.

In automatic, just place the point and hit "warp".

If there's no contact on the way, the warp stops when you reach your waypoint. At this point, since there's no sub icon or anything, you have to make a navigation fix. In automatic the navigator just places the point on the map, his accuracy depending on the conditions (cloudy? time of the day to make the fix?) and on his experience.

In manual you do it yourself like in the realnav mod for SH3/4, only better integrated. The world doesn't to be round, if the referencials are adapted to a cylindrical world.

So basically you do have things to do during patrol other than sink stuff and avoid aircrafts. You calculate your position and your course to your next waypoint. The warp time is as fast as computer and game programming allow. Once you're out of warp, you can perform trim dive to improve or maintain the boat handling over the course of the patrol. Then make your sun/star fix, plot your next waypoint, and warp again.

When your warp is interrupted by a contact, you can use "direct navigation" to shadow a convoy or the like, and use "classic" time compression if you want/need to shadow until the night or whatnot.

Once the attack is finished and contact is lost, you have to make a position fix and then resume patrol.

[Mikhayl]

When this is all true, tell why are you then buying the SH series?
There must be something appealing to you in the games (or else you wouldn't be buying/playing them)?

In SH3, the great part for me is shadowing a convoy at the limit of visual range, plotting a firing solution well before the attack, then get myself in position, strike and escape. That's quite well done and a real blast. But honestly the rest of the game is mostly boring.

Err, at less than two knots your boat won't maintain it's depth that well with GWX, at least not the chosen depth.

IIRC in GWX your boat just rises 1 meter or so and that's it. In NYGM your boat sinks if you don't move (no humming bird mod) which is a bit better at abstracting the situation but not perfect. But the main point is that your actions (trim dive or lack of) have no influence on depth keeping.

[karamazovnew]

Mikhayl, hats off for reminding us about the actual GAME features :haha:

When SH5 was just announced, the old "What would you like to see in SH5" thread was resurrected. Most of those have been left out...

-The campaign seems to have been addressed by the devs themselves, we'll only need to mod the game beyond 43... easy as a Wolfram cake.
-The torpedo errors are an absolute MUST. Hopefully we will have more freedom in modding their scripts. One absolute bonus would be to take in account the actual position of the sub and the weather. We'll see about that in March.

The other two points you've made just brings back the old "I want to do this for immersion/I don't want to do this because the captain didn't" topic. Tell me guys, is there a point in actually sitting at the Radio Station before the radar is installed? NO, but it's still nice to be able to do it, right?

-navigation: fun to do manually but... no tides, no currents, no wind factor... no real maps.. pointless. We asked for an "area of uncertainty" and estimated navigation dependent on the navigator's skill. That seems to have been ignored by the devs. However we've only seen the "easy" interface so maybe we're lucky. I truly HATE GPS.
- uboat trimming: what's the point in doing it manually? While sitting at the periscope?! Ok, let the Chief do it but put a bit of randomness in it devs :up:. It's one of those aspects that we don't really want to control all the time, but we want to know it's there.

[Will-Rommel]

Very good points, very good post Mikhayl. :yep:

I wish i'd see this type of system implemented, but i guess i won't because we would lack the ''warp'' button.

Yet... i think maybe this would shorten patrols a lot, and considering we don't even have a full lenght campaign it would hurt deeply lol! :hmmm:

[Mikhayl]

The other two points you've made just brings back the old "I want to do this for immersion/I don't want to do this because the captain didn't" topic. Tell me guys, is there a point in actually sitting at the Radio Station before the radar is installed? NO, but it's still nice to be able to do it, right?

-navigation: fun to do manually but... no tides, no currents, no wind factor... no real maps.. pointless. We asked for an "area of uncertainty" and estimated navigation dependent on the navigator's skill. That seems to have been ignored by the devs. However we've only seen the "easy" interface so maybe we're lucky. I truly HATE GPS.
- uboat trimming: what's the point in doing it manually? While sitting at the periscope?! Ok, let the Chief do it but put a bit of randomness in it devs :up:. It's one of those aspects that we don't really want to control all the time, but we want to know it's there.


After seeing the navigator and chief "special abilities" I'm hoping for a different navigation system and meaningful trim dive in one form or another, I just hope it will be more engaging than SH3/4. I like reading books, but when I'm playing I'd like to have something to do in game.

[TH0R]

I have to second this post. I too would like to have something to do besides just sail around and sinking ships / evading escorts. Be it navigation or manual trimming or some kind of preparations for combat or even maintenance on sub systems (I am studying to be mechanical engineer so you can understand my interest :) ).

One feature I would also love to see is crew line up option, for leaving the missions or entering port. Be it even for saluting capital ships like U-47 did with Scharnhorst after Scapa Flow attack...

[Brag]

WE have been hollering for stuff like navigation for years. Wether the Devs paid attention, I don't know. At the moment it doesn't look like it.

[Kapitanleutnant]

In SH3, the great part for me is shadowing a convoy at the limit of visual range, plotting a firing solution well before the attack, then get myself in position, strike and escape. That's quite well done and a real blast. But honestly the rest of the game is mostly boring.

You remind me of my grandfather. He records gameshows that he likes to watch, but when he actually sits down to watch the recording he fast-forwards through 90% of it and just presses play to watch the idiots open the box to see what they won or didn't win. I honestly don't know why he bothers.

I enjoy the process of a patrol, I enjoy the journey out there, the patrolling, and the journey back - despite not having to make trim dives or any of that other mundane ****. I'd probably enjoy it just as much with those features, but I don't feel that the game is critically lacking without them.

And you suddenly blurting out how ****ty SH3 is at this precies time is pretty classless, and reeks to me of somebody pandering to the developers.

[onelifecrisis]

I just hope they use all four of my CPU cores. I realised after buying my PC that I'd spent slightly too much money on the CPU (seems most games don't really use all those extra cores) and not enough on the GPU. The potential silver lining here, for me, is if SH5 is fully multithreaded then maybe I can crank it up to insane TC levels and get around the long waits that way. I'd be very happy with that.

[Gilbou]

I went back from SH4 to SH3 and there are many differences already.

When I start on port, people, musicians and the music. I had forgot that.

The sub itself. I have many subs and I really feel that each sub is different from a type II to a type IX.

The manual targetting that never worked ever once in SH4 I am able to actually hit ships in SH3...

I now realize what has been lost between SH3 and SH4 and that selling my SH3 to buy SH4 is the biggest mistake I ever did with the SH series.

There are so many differences I should do a list to cover them.

I am quite fed up of new game versions that "remove" stuff that was already there, coded and working. What's the point ?

All they had to do was improve the graphics engine, fix the current sub models and make them better, add the missing allied technologies for 1943 to 1945. Each version adding more to the existing. Like Flight Simulator did.

[PL_Andrev]

6 months ago nobody was saying "SH5 sucks, I'm off to play SH3+supermod".
Who have played SH5 already and can say it?
:nope:

[TH0R]

I went back from SH4 to SH3 and there are many differences already.

When I start on port, people, musicians and the music. I had forgot that.

The sub itself. I have many subs and I really feel that each sub is different from a type II to a type IX.

The manual targetting that never worked ever once in SH4 I am able to actually hit ships in SH3...

I now realize what has been lost between SH3 and SH4 and that selling my SH3 to buy SH4 is the biggest mistake I ever did with the SH series.

There are so many differences I should do a list to cover them.

I am quite fed up of new game versions that "remove" stuff that was already there, coded and working. What's the point ?

All they had to do was improve the graphics engine, fix the current sub models and make them better, add the missing allied technologies for 1943 to 1945. Each version adding more to the existing. Like Flight Simulator did.

:zzz:

What a bunch of nonsense, I am sorry but...

SH4 has people cheering in port as you leave and enter it.

Manual targeting in SH4 was briliant IMO, as Fleet subs where unique by that matter and there were many different ways one could use the TDC. With big thanks to all Subsim SH4 tutorial videos that helped me learn them.

The only thing I can understand it that subs were much alike. But I did not get that feeling, especially when you switched to late war boats, like Balao class. But, you can't really compare US subs to German ones. In the beginning of the war they were inferior, to say the least. But in second half they were more than a match. If you don't count the XXI, of course.

And what about S-Type??

[Mikhayl]

You remind me of my grandfather. He records gameshows that he likes to watch, but when he actually sits down to watch the recording he fast-forwards through 90% of it and just presses play to watch the idiots open the box to see what they won or didn't win. I honestly don't know why he bothers.

I enjoy the process of a patrol, I enjoy the journey out there, the patrolling, and the journey back - despite not having to make trim dives or any of that other mundane ****. I'd probably enjoy it just as much with those features, but I don't feel that the game is critically lacking without them.

And you suddenly blurting out how ****ty SH3 is at this precies time is pretty classless, and reeks to me of somebody pandering to the developers.

Here, you nailed the problem with your analogy. In SH3 the hunting and escaping represents what, 10, 20% of the overall game time. But it also makes up for 80, 90% of the actual gameplay. That's why I bother.

You enjoy the journey, good for you, but it's still a wasteland in terms of actual gameplay. Click a dozen waypoints, click ahead 2/3, crank up TC, wait. I don't enjoy it one bit because I don't see what's there to enjoy. For that reason I play SH3 in windowed mode so I can do something else to break the boredom.

And hey, no need to get your panties in a twist. Blurting? Classless? Reeks? Pandering? Take a deep breath, it's gonna be ok :)

[flakmonkey]

What makes you think SHV will address any of these isues??

[Jimbuna]

In SH3, the great part for me is shadowing a convoy at the limit of visual range, plotting a firing solution well before the attack, then get myself in position, strike and escape. That's quite well done and a real blast. But honestly the rest of the game is mostly boring.

IIRC in GWX your boat just rises 1 meter or so and that's it. In NYGM your boat sinks if you don't move (no humming bird mod) which is a bit better at abstracting the situation but not perfect. But the main point is that your actions (trim dive or lack of) have no influence on depth keeping.

I certainly concur regarding the shadowing of a convoy but would question the 'boring' reference.

In an ideal world it would be possible to please all the people all of the time and the best way to achieve that would be to incorporate every facet of every mod allied with the ability to enable or disable each separate feature of said mod at will (presuming there were no conflicts).

We all know that is not possible and it is highly likely that it is now too late for any last minute changes/additions to SHV prior to release.

Soooooo IMHO the priorities now are twofold......How moddable is the game going to be and will there be future patches to incorporate ideas/suggestions from the community as well as fixing any faults that are discovered.

Simply my 2cents.

[Feuer Frei!]

Errr....i don't think SH3 sucks
for me, still the "pick" of the bunch.....:up:

[Mikhayl]

Mostly I just hope it does :D

Well, we know that the campaign part is entirely new and if it works as advertised it should be great, and a big immersion booster. Now you're part of the SH world, even if your little actions don't do much, at least you know that they could.

For the torpedoes, as Warhawk says, in SH4 there are already more potential malfunction causes, all SH5 needs is to make it near impossible to hit something in very bad weather.

For the u-boat handling and "gameplay wasteland", well, nothing. There's mentions of trim-dive on the website and some obscure comments on the navigator's page, so here's hoping for something new/different.

[JScones]

Well, there's not much in the first post that I can actually disagree with. It's pretty much spot on, IMHO.

However, I subscribe to a "horses for courses" view. If I want instant gratification, I'll just load up MW2 on the ol' Xbox. If I want the feeling of frustration, the challenge and then the elation when I finally find something and sink it, I'll load up SH3/GWX3.

Despite all the failings that Mikhayl has presented, there's obviously something amongst all the "boring" that has kept me coming back to it for over five years, with many more sure to come. :hmmm:

[Feuer Frei!]

Thank you modders, is all i can say!!!! :up:

And obviously Ubisoft, for bringing out the game...........

[Mikhayl]

However, I subscribe to a "horses for courses" view. If I want instant gratification, I'll just load up MW2 on the ol' Xbox. If I want the feeling of frustration, the challenge and then the elation when I finally find something and sink it, I'll load up SH3/GWX3.

Despite all the failings that Mikhayl has presented, there's obviously something amongst all the "boring" that has kept me coming back to it for over five years, with many more sure to come. :hmmm:

I agree with that, I don't want instant gratification either. My favourite sim is/was Grand Prix Legend, a game I had to play for weeks, even months before I could finally set up my car correctly and compete for the top places.
But I think there can definitely be a middle ground between "action all around" and "gameplay wasteland". What has kept me playing for 2 years now is the feeling of the hunt and the escape but even that is wearing thin because of its predictability. I just wish there was more to the game than that.

Thank you modders, is all i can say!!!! :up:

And obviously Ubisoft, for bringing out the game...........

IMO it has nothing to do with mods or no mods. Mods add content, but they don't add new gameplay. In SH3 no matter what mod you use the cruise from Kiel to North of Britain and beyond is still void of anything to do.

Actually it's that boredom that got me into modding. Somewhere between Spain and Freetown I had nothing to do in game so I thought, ok, I want a sboot and short trips to the Brit coast :) But it's the same thing, just on a smaller scale and the hunt is nowhere near as exciting, so meh.

[Feuer Frei!]

I agree with that, I don't want instant gratification either. My favourite sim is/was Grand Prix Legend, a game I had to play for weeks, even months before I could finally set up my car correctly and compete for the top places.
But I think there can definitely be a middle ground between "action all around" and "gameplay wasteland". What has kept me playing for 2 years now is the feeling of the hunt and the escape but even that is wearing thin because of its predictability. I just wish there was more to the game than that.



IMO it has nothing to do with mods or no mods. Mods add content, but they don't add new gameplay.

Actually it's that boredom that got me into modding. Somewhere between Spain and Freetown I had nothing to do in game so I thought, ok, I want a sboot and short trips to the Brit coast :) But it's the same thing, just on a smaller scale and the hunt is nowhere near as exciting, so meh.

Really? Nothing to do with mods? Fascinating that, considering it's mods that either "enhance, "advance" or "alter" gameplay....to give the game player something extra!
Now, i'm not picking a fight here, but really, that's what a mod is, in it's simplest form, file or files that alter a game......

That is why i thanked the modders, because the "stock" SH3 would have been just that, stock........

[Mikhayl]

Really? Nothing to do with mods? Fascinating that, considering it's mods that either "enhance, "advance" or "alter" gameplay....to give the game player something extra!
Now, i'm not picking a fight here, but really, that's what a mod is, in it's simplest form, file or files that alter a game......

That is why i thanked the modders, because the "stock" SH3 would have been just that, stock........

I agree that mods "enhance" gameplay, for example the GUI mods for SH3 enhance manual targetting. But they don't "add" gameplay, if SH3 had no mechanism for manual targetting programmed in, there would be nothing to enhance.

If you take my points in the OP, even if you don't agree with them, it's a fact that 5 years of mods didn't change anything on these matters.

[Feuer Frei!]

If you take my points in the OP, even if you don't agree with them, it's a fact that 5 years of mods didn't change anything on these matters.

Absolutely take your point........:up:

[ichso]

I agree that mods "enhance" gameplay, for example the GUI mods for SH3 enhance manual targetting. But they don't "add" gameplay, if SH3 had no mechanism for manual targetting programmed in, there would be nothing to enhance.

Which is not totally true, to be honest.
The real navigation mod brought quite some new gameplay. It wasn't perfect, mostly because of the flat SH-world I think. But I was pretty astonished how well you still could work with sunrise/set times and the night sky.
And I spent quite some time 'real navigation' instead of just zipping through the ocean.

It even brought up one of the things you brought up: if you wouldn't use the game's GPS-keep-on-course-functionality by just setting the course yourself on the compass, your boat would even get adrift in rough weathers which could make the whole process of estimating your position even more interesting. And intercepting reported convoys all of the sudden become quite a challenging and uncertain issue.

If that's not what you would additional gameplay elements beyond the release version, then I don't know what will be ;)

[Mikhayl]

Hmm, I think the realnav mod is proof that a real new element of gameplay isn't doable by just mods (unless the game structure is that open, but SH3 wasn't) and is mostly in the hands of the devs.

Real nav aimed to bring new gameplay, but it failed because the game had no provision for that, at least not enough. The sun and stars were here so you could find your position with a decent accuracy even with the cylindrical world.

But in terms of game it was more or less equally boring as the stock system. First there's a big flaw of the "blinking pixel" that gives away the position of your sub on the map, removing all incentive to even bother.
And then, even at low TC rates you had to keep clicking on the compass every 10 seconds to maintain course because the "drift" was so poorely modeled that your boat would just run in circle if you didn't pay attention.

Those things make the GPS system look acceptable :woot:

[Kapitanleutnant]

Here, you nailed the problem with your analogy. In SH3 the hunting and escaping represents what, 10, 20% of the overall game time. But it also makes up for 80, 90% of the actual gameplay. That's why I bother.

You enjoy the journey, good for you, but it's still a wasteland in terms of actual gameplay. Click a dozen waypoints, click ahead 2/3, crank up TC, wait. I don't enjoy it one bit because I don't see what's there to enjoy. For that reason I play SH3 in windowed mode so I can do something else to break the boredom.

So why not just play single missions if the journey is so boring to you?
I like wondering if I'm going to get buzzed by aircraft. I like the wondering what I'm gong to encounter in the next grid, I like calculating an intercept on a convoy that's 150km away and seeing if I get them - I did this just last night and had to recalculate my intercept thre times because the convoy kept changing course. It was a fun chase that I enjoyed, and when I finally caught up with them I felt like I earned that tonnage.
These are all aspects of "the journey" which are fun, and they make up more than 10 - 20% of the gameplay.


And hey, no need to get your panties in a twist. Blurting? Classless? Reeks? Pandering? Take a deep breath, it's gonna be ok :)

SOMEBODY SPEAKING THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE!? OH MY GOD!

[Uber Gruber]

Very good post Mikhayl, hit the hammer right on the nail.

Hopefully SH5, once DRM/OSP/KACK has been removed, will allow modders to correct these shortcomings. If its as modable as they say then I have every faith the modders will make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. :salute:

[Mikhayl]

So why not just play single missions if the journey is so boring to you?
I like wondering if I'm going to get buzzed by aircraft. I like the wondering what I'm gong to encounter in the next grid, I like calculating an intercept on a convoy that's 150km away and seeing if I get them - I did this just last night and had to recalculate my intercept thre times because the convoy kept changing course. It was a fun chase that I enjoyed, and when I finally caught up with them I felt like I earned that tonnage.
These are all aspects of "the journey" which are fun, and they make up more than 10 - 20% of the gameplay.


One of my complaints in the OP is "And the fact that your presence in the game world is meaningless." How am I going to get that immersion in single missions?

What game action did you actually perform before the convoy was reported?
Yesterday I spent 20 minutes traveling from Pearl to Tokyo with absolutely nothing to do except re-cranking up TC after a radio message. Sure I wondered what I'd find on my patrol zone, but this isn't a gameplay element.
And that's what the "journey" is about, intercepting a convoy is the action, because once it starts, even with GPS waypoint you actually get to do something. But all the time between port and contact (either visual or on map), you don't have anything to do except "wondering".
"Wondering" isn't a game action, it's just not relevant to my points. With a better navigation system and more detailed simulation of the boat you would still have to wonder, actually you'd wonder even more.

Aircraft attacks in SH3 are just as boring as radio messages, precisely because of stuff I find lacking in the OP.
For me it always goes that way:

-surfaced, TC 1024.
-aircraft spotted, TC 1.
-crash dive, wait 30 seconds.
-ahead slow, level at 80m, TC to 1024 for a couple game hours.
-surface, ahead standard, TC 1024.

Boring. With a good navigation system you would have things to do, like estimate your position at the time of diving and recalculate your route to take into account the different speed underwater. The same kind of things that are FUN to do with manual targetting, because the player is involved.
In SH3 it's just "ok, nuisance over, now where are the ships, when do I get to actually do something".


SOMEBODY SPEAKING THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE!? OH MY GOD!

:yawn:

[ichso]

Hmm, I think the realnav mod is proof that a real new element of gameplay isn't doable by just mods (unless the game structure is that open, but SH3 wasn't) and is mostly in the hands of the devs.

Real nav aimed to bring new gameplay, but it failed because the game had no provision for that, at least not enough. The sun and stars were here so you could find your position with a decent accuracy even with the cylindrical world.

But in terms of game it was more or less equally boring as the stock system. First there's a big flaw of the "blinking pixel" that gives away the position of your sub on the map, removing all incentive to even bother.
And then, even at low TC rates you had to keep clicking on the compass every 10 seconds to maintain course because the "drift" was so poorely modeled that your boat would just run in circle if you didn't pay attention.

Those things make the GPS system look acceptable :woot:

O.k., firstly new gameplay elements introduced by mods are a rare thing, right. Secondly they also cannot reach the quality of things the developers can do, of course.
But I still think that it was a whole new element in gameplay nonetheless. It gave me something to do during the cruise, not constantly but in relatively short frequency at least. It also changed some of the already existing elements as well. Intercepting a radio reported contact was more interesting and finding your way back into your own harbour could be a bit of a challenge as well.

I give you that this can be destroyed by the blinking pixel thing and the constant course corrections. But while I never had the first problem the latter one was quite annoying but very infrequent - i.e. only in very stormy conditions.

[Kapitanleutnant]

Blar blar blar
I was going to craft quite a long and in-depth response to this post but after reading it I think I've found your problem. I'll just let you read this (http://www.theonion.com/content/news_briefs/man_who_enjoys_thing) instead.

You've got a subjective personal opinion based on your own experience and are trying to present it as a "fact" about the game being boring. It's stupid. ......

[Onkel Neal]

Whoa, Kapitanleutnant, easy there. You made a point, don't clutter it with insults. :salute:

[Mikhayl]

I was going to craft quite a long and in-depth response to this post but after reading it I think I've found your problem. I'll just let you read this (http://www.theonion.com/content/news_briefs/man_who_enjoys_thing) instead.

You've got a subjective personal opinion based on your own experience and are trying to present it as a "fact" about the game being boring. It's stupid. And you're stupid for doing it.

So instead of a well thought out argument, you chose to post a bunch of insults, and I'm the stupid. You win.

[Kapitanleutnant]

(rewriting this out of respect for Neal's request)

So instead of a well thought out argumentSee this is your first problem - you don't actually have a point from which a real discussion can progress. Certainly nothing that can be argued with, because it's your personal subjective opinion. It is not a fact, but you've presented it as such and then expect people to counter it - and when they do counter with their own experience (which is different from yours) you just go BLAR BLAR BLAR THAT'S WRONG.

you chose to post a bunch of insults, and I'm the stupid. You win.Pretty much.

[Hitman]

May I suggest you guys take your fascinating exchange of opinions to PM? :doh:

[Kapitanleutnant]

Sorry Hitman! Sorry Neal!

[Onkel Neal]

So instead of a well thought out argument, .

(rewriting this out of respect for Neal's request)



Look, I cannot say I agree with OP's statement, either. I cannot even see how anyone can say SH3 is a "boring" simulation, simply because it does not go even deeper into the mechanics of achieving negative buoyancy or celestial navigation. Would those features be nice? Sure. Would many people use them? Maybe about 1/2 the people in this forum who say they would use them, actually would use them. Twice, maybe. How many people use the stock realistic map contacts option? I haven't met one yet.

No Subsim before SH3 had these nice features, does that mean they all fell short of a good sim?
Before SH3, all subsims were ghost ships, voices ringing out from an empty control room.
Before SH2, you couldn't even look up or down on the bridge :)

Anyway, thanks for reeling this in, guys, and carry on with the debate, but remember, you probably cannot change anyone's opinion, just be sure to represent your opinion with tact and logic, and let it go at that. :salute:

Why SH3 sucks...". Why the edit?
Lol, oldest rule in the forum: (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/faq.php?faq=susbim_faq_item#faq_rules3_faq_item):D We do not want SUBSIM Review and the Radio Room forums to degenerate into a collection of *This game sux!!!!*

Just like we do not want people here throwing out generalized insults to each other, we gotta respect the game enough to say, "This game comes up short by..." instead of SH3 sucks. Christ, I can imagine half the threads here could be titled Something sucks!* :timeout:




*including me :cry:

[Letum]

How many people use the stock realistic map contacts option? I haven't met one yet.

/waves hand.

Meeee.
I started off with contacts on, but switched them off a long time ago once I had figured out how to work from observations.

[Mikhayl]

Ok, the title was intended as provocation but it was tongue in cheek :)
I've been playing and modding SH3 for two years now, what kind of idiot spends that much time on a worthless game?

SH3 IS a good game. But even if that hurts some fanboy's feelings, it has some pretty major flaws, that would be fatal is the rest of the game wasn't that good.

I'm not saying make the game impossible to play without an engineering degree, I'm just saying, give the player something to do during the whole game time, not just half an hour out of 3 hours. And I gave some examples of "things to do" and they aren't hyper complicated.

Immersion is a hot topic, my question is, how do you "get into" a game that lets you watch TV, surf on the internets and read books?

Btw, I play with no map contacts at all, it's a blast :)

[The Enigma]

In SH3, the great part for me is shadowing a convoy at the limit of visual range, plotting a firing solution well before the attack, then get myself in position, strike and escape. That's quite well done and a real blast. But honestly the rest of the game is mostly boring.

Wasn't being bored while, patrolling, not part of the crew's daily life on sea?

Btw, thanks for changing the title.

[U-SERB]

SOMEBODY SPEAKING THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE!? OH MY GOD!


First of all, we are not all from GB or USA, Australia, etc... For many of us, english is second (for me third) language which I was learn in the school...



Also your user name Kapitanleutnant is not english, so what... Nobody say nothing to you... *:know:

[Kapitanleutnant]

First of all, we are not all from GB or USA, Australia, etc... For many of us, english is second (for me third) language which I was learn in the school...

I was just pointing out that I was stating things using language, not getting as upset as Mikhayl seemed to imply.
Somebody got the wrong end something.

[ichso]

/waves hand.

Meeee.
I started off with contacts on, but switched them off a long time ago once I had figured out how to work from observations.

"Map contacts ? What are these ? Can I eat them ?" :arrgh!:

[U-SERB]

Aircraft attacks in SH3 are just as boring as radio messages, precisely because of stuff I find lacking in the OP.
For me it always goes that way:

-surfaced, TC 1024.
-aircraft spotted, TC 1.
-crash dive, wait 30 seconds.
-ahead slow, level at 80m, TC to 1024 for a couple game hours.
* -surface, ahead standard, TC 1024.



* Actually, I think that realism is bigger if you wish to play like that... I mean in this situation you always can play, like you are actually there!!!
* In this situations,(or destroyer attack...) I always spent some 30-45 min (aircraf attack) of real time, waitting to HEAR what is going on, and than, TC 128, 256 etc....


* When I am deep charged, I spent a lot of real time like I am really there...


* So, in SH3 you have a lot of situations where you can, if you wish, to play very realistic.... Like when attacking convoy, like u are under attack etc...


* About navigator or other positions in sub... Well, you are captain, you have crew, and your navigator calculating your position...He is that one who calculate speed x time = distance!!! I agree, it will be nice, that we can do that manualy, but, hej, I am captain! I am the boss, other work for me!!!*:DL

[=FI=Ghost]

* Actually, I think that realism is bigger if you wish to play like that... I mean in this situation you always can play, like you are actually there!!!
* In this situations,(or destroyer attack...) I always spent some 30-45 min (aircraf attack) of real time, waitting to HEAR what is going on, and than, TC 128, 256 etc....


* When I am deep charged, I spent a lot of real time like I am really there...


* So, in SH3 you have a lot of situations where you can, if you wish, to play very realistic.... Like when attacking convoy, like u are under attack etc...


* About navigator or other positions in sub... Well, you are captain, you have crew, and your navigator calculating your position...He is that one who calculate speed x time = distance!!! I agree, it will be nice, that we can do that manualy, but, hej, I am captain! I am the boss, other work for me!!!*:DL

Aye, aye to that drugar!

[vergol]

The monotony of staring at the map screen while periodically clicking the TC buttons certainly gets old pretty quick. The gramophone helps a bit, though not a whole lot.

I've always questioned why games choose to leave out the trivial activities. The hero can slay dragons and journey to distant lands, but he can't rest, eat, or even sharpen his sword once in a while. The commercial jet pilot can spend 18 hours in the air, but he can't get up from his seat to get some coffee or use the restroom. The tourist mogul can oversee the financial transactions of all his hotels and casinos around the world, but he can't go home and feed his cat.

In a sandbox simulation like SH3, there must be 'downtime' -- some way to unwind and break the routine. There has to be a way to occupy your mind when few or no external stimuli are present.

Why do we daydream? Why do we hum songs, whistle, and talk to ourselves? Why do prisoners exercise?

Trivial activities keep a human being from losing his mind.

Of course, you can do all these things while playing SH3. I sure do. I set my u-boat's course/TC and go make tea, read, do my laundry, or check the Subsim forums. There's only one problem with this approach: it kills immersion.

See, no matter what the u-boat crew did to keep themselves occupied while bouncing around in that sardine can, one thing was clear to them: they were in the middle of the Atlantic and their Fatherland counted on them. No amount of letter-writing or jerking-off was going to change that.

There's no downtime in SH3. There's no crew socializing, no battle drills, no engine-oiling, no torpedo-lubing, no log-writing, no leak-sealing, no bolt-tightening, no bulb-replacing, no potato-peeling, no dish-washing, no toilet-unclogging, and no getting drunk in french bars. The only thing it offers is TC and your imagination. I agree with the OP.

SH5, through all its anticipated faults, offers the first glimpse at the modding potential of 'first-person' gameplay. Given some time and creativity, it won't be long before you find yourself getting up from your captain's bunk, walking to the tiny on-board kitchen to get that warm [virtual] cup of tea, and sitting down to read the latest BdU comms. You will feel satisfied, immersed, and by no means bored. And at that point, you will realize that you are in the middle of the Atlantic and the Fatherland is counting on you.