@ Members who posted in the thread about brigging the General

[Hitman]

OK, I'm back now. Please do not convert this new thread I had to open (The previous one is locked for good) into anything dramatic, but I think I owe some people here at least an explanation.

-First of all, when I posted in the other thread I was in a hurry and had only some minutes more before having to leave home, so I had to make quick decissions.

-Second, the thread start was absolutely insane and ridiculous, a very bad thing in these forums that had not happened before (AFAIK). It is as moderator my duty to care not just for subsim rules being followed, but also for the public clean image that makes this forum so great.

In that regard, I understood that *any* new or recently registered user (And with SH5 there are a lot of them) who comes here for news about the game he is interested in, and sees in the first page such a thread, would be inmediately pissed off and have the most negative image of this site.

The problem is that moderators here have powers to ban/give infractions to anyone (That allows us to inmediately eliminate spambots and such), but not to lock threads in all forums. So I could not close the thread in SH5, and the only thing I could do was to post there requesting it to stop -which is effectively the same as locking it, but the only thing I can do-

I knew also that making a more civilized post would result in people keeping posting, but I had to go and I know that all SH5 moderators are in US time and would not be available to stop this stupid thing. Hence I went for a more stiff action.

Unfortunately, it seems that not many people knew that I'm also a moderator, and in those who knew it has triggered a response that was not what I expected -colaboration in putting an end to this damaging thread- but the opposite. I don't blame anyone, and I understand you might have seen otherwise, so no harm done and I will be reversing the infractions I had given. But please so do I request that you guys understand my position. Having as moderator a compromise with subsim, with Neal and indirectly with all of you to keep the forum as we like it means I had to do something. I might have done the right or wrong thing, but I wasn't by any means going to look elsewhere and let that silly stuff stay in the main page of the SH5 while everyone in there was feeding the troll.

Thanks

Hitman

[The Enigma]

No hard feelings.
We all are human, we all do make mistakes.
Let's move on and talk about subs again ;)

[HundertzehnGustav]

Neal needs more staff in Europe i guess.

I for one thank you for the post you just took the time to write. I can feel with the horrible shock you have gotten, seeing one member kick another in the balls with such a poll.
:timeout::timeout:


No matter what i think about the subject itself, i also had immediately the feeling that the ship was about to hit the fan.:o

I grinned:D, and just for the fun of it, went to post immediately-

"MMMOOoooOOOin before lock:rock::rotfl2:"

It is only later that i red the entire thing, and your request to stop such bull***.

I have a lot of respect for yall Moderators, as it needs some real nerve to keep this crowd, me included, under control sometimes.
This is the home of SHV, where many of us are hoping to hang out in the future.

[FIREWALL]

OK, I'm back now. Please do not convert this new thread I had to open (The previous one is locked for good) into anything dramatic, but I think I owe some people here at least an explanation.

-First of all, when I posted in the other thread I was in a hurry and had only some minutes more before having to leave home, so I had to make quick decissions.

-Second, the thread start was absolutely insane and ridiculous, a very bad thing in these forums that had not happened before (AFAIK). It is as moderator my duty to care not just for subsim rules being followed, but also for the public clean image that makes this forum so great.

In that regard, I understood that *any* new or recently registered user (And with SH5 there are a lot of them) who comes here for news about the game he is interested in, and sees in the first page such a thread, would be inmediately pissed off and have the most negative image of this site.

The problem is that moderators here have powers to ban/give infractions to anyone (That allows us to inmediately eliminate spambots and such), but not to lock threads in all forums. So I could not close the thread in SH5, and the only thing I could do was to post there requesting it to stop -which is effectively the same as locking it, but the only thing I can do-

I knew also that making a more civilized post would result in people keeping posting, but I had to go and I know that all SH5 moderators are in US time and would not be available to stop this stupid thing. Hence I went for a more stiff action.

Unfortunately, it seems that not many people knew that I'm also a moderator, and in those who knew it has triggered a response that was not what I expected -colaboration in putting an end to this damaging thread- but the opposite. I don't blame anyone, and I understand you might have seen otherwise, so no harm done and I will be reversing the infractions I had given. But please so do I request that you guys understand my position. Having as moderator a compromise with subsim, with Neal and indirectly with all of you to keep the forum as we like it means I had to do something. I might have done the right or wrong thing, but I wasn't by any means going to look elsewhere and let that silly stuff stay in the main page of the SH5 while everyone in there was feeding the troll.

Thanks

Hitman

:up: :salute:

[Letum]

I knew also that making a more civilized post would result in people keeping postingThat really isn't an excuse to make an uncivilized post (which probably lead to more posts than a civilized one would have).
After all, it was The General posting in an uncivilized manner that started the problem.

[Kapitanleutnant]

I don't think Hitman did anything wrong - he is a moderator, he told us to shut up, and we didn't. I'll own up and admit that I kept posting just because I thought it was funny to be disobedient.
I don't expect my infraction to be removed - I knew what I was doing, and in hindsight it really wasn't very funny at all. I apologise to Hitman for ignoring him, and to Neal for ****ting up his forum.
I didn't post that thread though, which some people accused me of doing.

[karamazovnew]

I've found Subsim while looking for tactics and mods. The forum instantly made a good impression on me and it's the only one where I'm registered and post frequently. The SH5 section is a melting pot of anticipation with all the good and bad things.

While the atmosphere was fine until a month ago, the latest news have turned it into a boiling pot of frustration. Most are impatient to play the game, some are frustrated by (actually I won't mention that thing again), and some are just acting plain silly. We need moderators to keep things in order and, due to the big number of posts and the importance of this section (everybody wants to know about SH5), I suggest that all moderators should be able to lend Takeda and Neal a hand.

After the release, I hope most things will be thrown in the archive and we start to talk again about tactics, mods and, unfortunately bugs :haha:

[martes86]

That whole thread was a neat candidate for a nightly burn-and-bury action, and never be heard of again.
Thankfully, it's out now. Seriously, it was madness, I don't think most of you realize the kind of image the whole thing was projecting. That stuff must never take place again, for the sake of those of us who like civilized regular discussions and not the crazyness taking place within those posts, and for the sake of an image of seriousness too.

Cheers :rock:

[Sailor Steve]

I thought that was an apology. Or at least an explanation. Anything but an excuse.

For me, I do apologize for being part of the frenzy. If anything at that point I was guilty of having too much fun.

I just don't like being yelled at.:cry:

[karamazovnew]

I just don't like being yelled at.:cry:

"What if he has a pointed stick?"

"SHUT UP!" :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RKTSwAVaoU

[Platapus]

Three items I would like to offer up for consideration:

1. Forum moderators should be identified as being moderators. That would have mitigated some of the misunderstandings.

2. Also forum moderators, because of their authority here, should be held to a higher standard concerning wording of their "official" posts.

3. Also, because moderators are also forum members, it is incumbent on them to make it very clear when they are posting an opinion as a forum member and when they are exercising their authority as agents of website owner.

[HundertzehnGustav]

Have a bunch of Euro, Asia and Aussie Moderators for watching this space 24/7/365:yeah:

[The Enigma]

Three items I would like to offer up for consideration:


3. Also, because moderators are also forum members, it is incumbent on them to make it very clear when they are posting an opinion as a forum member and when they are exercising their authority as agents of website owner.

You could also solve this by allowing mods to have 2 accounts.
One as a regular member and one as a mod.

It depends on the forum software (or settings) if this allowed or not.

[Dowly]

*The empty corridors echo 'Attica.... Attica.... Attica....*

Hmm... I'm pretty sure this door should be locked shut. :hmmm:

*runs out of the brig screaming something illegible*

[Letum]

RE: two accounts: less transparency can not be a good thing.

Ensuring there are mods at most time zones and some kind of public code
of practice for mods might not be a bad idea. I have seen it work well
elsewhere.

All that said, there isn't really any serious problem with how Subsim is
moderated at the moment and if it ain't broke...

[McBeck]

Just read both threads and cant help but chuckle....

"In before lock" - priceless :har:

[AVGWarhawk]

Hows the old PM box looking Hitman? :o You realize now that you have been discovered and there will be forever a scarlet M on you sig!

[The Enigma]

Indeed that will be confusing if it isn't clear that these 2 accounts were one person.

Moderator-Killroy and Killroy, 2 names belonging together.
This method could avoid such confusion.

But I agree, this place is modded fine. It's a great place to be.
We all are mods. We can mod our own behavior and messages.
How about that?

[SteamWake]

Oh brother whats with all this drama? The place is moderated fine.

"Higher standard"... pfffft

Hell most mods at other sites dont post at all for fear of saying something they may regret and devolve to the dreaded 'ban hammer' :nope: I would hate to see that here.

[onelifecrisis]

I resisted posting in the thread, in respect of Hitman's "request".
I'd like a gold star please.

[John Channing]

While the atmosphere was fine until a month ago, the latest news have turned it into a boiling pot of frustration.


See... I'm gonna take issue with that, only because it's what a lot of people are saying.

If this forum has indeed turned into "a boiling pot of frustration" it is most definitely not because of any "latest news" or Ubisoft, or Dan and his Team, or a full moon or eating too many twinkies.

If this forum is "a boiling pot of frustration" it is because the members here made it that way. The forum doesn't write it's own posts, the members do. And don't look around at the guy next to you, I'm talking to all of you.

The outrage about Type VIIs and 1943, the endless DRM threads, the fake screeshots (which, btw, if I was Dan I would be insulted over)... all of it did not create itself... the people here did. You people.

So don't blame (or empower) other people or organizations by attributing your responses to their actions. If it's a mess, we created it.


"And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee."

JCC

[SteamWake]

I resisted posting in the thread, in respect of Hitman's "request".
I'd like a gold star please.

+1 :yep: :haha:

[Takeda Shingen]

I was at work. Good thing that Neal found you all first. I would have cracked some skulls around here.

A few remarks about comments from above:

1. As a moderator, I have no opinion on controversial matters. I do not post as such. I also have no appreciable sense of humor, and prefer to be invisible unless there is a problem. There was a problem. I was not there. Sorry, but I have a day job, and a man has got to eat.

2. Disregard for the forum rules is not funny.

3. I echo John: You are responsible for you. Therefore, the forum is in whatever condition it is in because you made it this way. Today's nonsense did not help. Remember; think, then post, but always think first.


EDIT:

4. Don't feed the freakin' trolls. Really.

[Nisgeis]

Oh brother whats with all this drama? The place is moderated fine.

I agree 100%

[Reaves]

A little controversy is healthy! Members here are legitimately upset about certain decisions in regards to SH5 and they have every right to voice their opinions.

I don't mind about only on class of U-boat as that allowed the full sub to be modeled. Something that has been requested since I started reading this forum.

1943 end - Easily fixed with mods.

New DRM - :nope:
Although we get duplicates and people get carried away, it is all part of a healthy community. C'mon.. I've been a member here for a few releases of SH games plus seen countless other titles at other forums. THIS HAPPENS EVERYTIME!!! I'm sure people will shout boycott for the new AVP game i've pre-ordered as well.


Remember folks, this is not Google China, this is sumsim.com.

or is it Sparta? Now i'm confused.

[Armistead]

To me never coming here, not knowing TG or anyone, it just looked like everyone was having a big laugh, so I joined in. Sometimes the way we word things, people don't know. I actually thought Hitman was being funny with the infractions and the brig comment, thus I gave him an infraction for posting...duh....

Once I realized what was going on it became more clear.

The easy fix is all Mods should have the power to close a thread. That way no need for statements that could be misunderstood. If one can be trusted to mod, he should be trusted to close a thread in any forum. With the lack of enough mods to troll the forums, that's the easy fix. None of our mods are nuts and give plenty leeway, so why not let them have full range to close threads in any forums, that way they could deal with the idiots that pop up, instead of trying to convince people with word.

All respect to Neon and Hitman...I spoke before I knew what was going on and had I read it all I wouldn't have done so. You'd have to pay me to be a mod, so those that do this deserve our respect.

Sometimes fun can get out of control......

[Steeltrap]

Three items I would like to offer up for consideration:

1. Forum moderators should be identified as being moderators. That would have mitigated some of the misunderstandings.

2. Also forum moderators, because of their authority here, should be held to a higher standard concerning wording of their "official" posts.

3. Also, because moderators are also forum members, it is incumbent on them to make it very clear when they are posting an opinion as a forum member and when they are exercising their authority as agents of website owner.

All good suggestions IMO.

It's not always clear who's a mod and which 'hat' they're wearing when posting.

As for having moderators in multiple 'theatres', that's clearly a matter for Neal. I imagine he doesn't want too many, and it would obviously be by invitation only.

Alternatively, we could all be mods. Could the last person sent to the brig please turn off the lights in the main forum?

:D

[Thunder]

Have mod and all official postings in a different color, accessible only to them?

[Uber Gruber]

I thought it was very funny....and I also thought Hitman handled the whole thing very well. :up:

I much prefer his approach to moderating than those old 'n bitter uppity types. :shifty:

[Hitman]

Thanks for your comments so far, I'm happy that no hard feelings at all remained.

Regarding what you guys have suggested, my opinion is as follows:

1.- When we act as moderators and when as users. Sorry, there is normally no division line. We are moderators 24/7/365 and in more than one ocasion I have hold back from posting certain things in other forums, even if I was not moderator there, because I understand I have to show a clean image always, everywhere. That's one of the side effects of being moderator, and I accept it. Recognizing us would probably be easier with custom avatars, but some of us have already custom ones, and don't like to part with them. Probably a kind of plaque in the signature or under the avatar would be a good idea.

2.- As for having powers in other forums, I do not even request it, same as I never requested banning/giving infractions to someone. That's entirely Neal's decission, this is his house and he will know better how to handle it. In fact he sure does, seeing that subsim is up for already 13 years and stronger than ever :up:

Thanks everyone.

[Onkel Neal]

Yeah, HM is right, we do not allow all moderators power to lock and edit in all forums for a simple reason; moderators (and me) know locking a thread is a drastic action, it's not something to do lightly. We all have a counter in our head, so if a moderator locks a thread, he's going to think long and hard about locking two threads in the same period of time. It's like a built in check. Having only 2 moderators with this power in each forum prevents a situation where an active (and somewhat rambunctious) forum like the SH5 forum does not draw all the moderators of the Radio Room to locking a thread or two each.

I really doubt this would happen even if all moderators had that power, but some check and balances are nice.

Speaking of guys who have multiple accounts and interact with each other, Kraut and Akula were putting on this show years ago (http://www.subsim.com/phpBB_2002/viewtopic.php?topic=7912&forum=9&16). This was before I had vBulletin and really good analysis tools, and before Spencer and his CIA buddy were members of the forum. :cool: We sort of supsected they were the same guy but every court needs a jester.

[The Enigma]

Nah, drop that idea, it was a bad suggestion.
Like I said before, everybody is a mod of him/herself.
We all have the power to write/change and delete our own messages.
In case we fail to properly mod ourselves, the mods of the forum kick in.
And then there is also Neal, the super moderator:sunny:

You guys do a great job (but do not have an easy one).

Ahoi

[arnesw]

I just have a couple of suggestions that might help:

1. Mods should have the title 'Moderator' below their names
2. When acting as mods, preface the post with Moderating, or something to that effect.
3. Do not mod forums you are not a moderator on. Instead, report the offending post to those that are.

I think that would help making clear who are mods, and when they are acting as such.

[Webster]

I just have a couple of suggestions that might help:

1. Mods should have the title 'Moderator' below their names
2. When acting as mods, preface the post with Moderating, or something to that effect.
3. Do not mod forums you are not a moderator on. Instead, report the offending post to those that are.

I think that would help making clear who are mods, and when they are acting as such.

1 mods are free to post anywhere and everywhere so "labeling" them as mods causes confusion and when posting just anywhere they most often do this in their member status rather then as a mod so having the "mod" banner around their necks can interfere with the ability to speak freely at times when a members opinion is ok but not ok to say it as a mod.

2 i agree adding a note identifying yourself as a mod would eliminate any chance of confusion

3 this was a perfect storm as it were, i was out of town for several days and neal happened to be out that day and the only mod left "takeda" was at work. i am greatfull to hitman for stepping in when he did since it was getting out of hand and i am very dissappointed in how he was ignored by members who i feel knew full well he was a mod and chose to ignore him.

[Onkel Neal]

Closed by request of OP.