My Theory

[Méo]

I've already made a post about it but I thought it could fit better for a whole thread.


I've seen so many comments comparing SHV with simulations like Aces of the deep that I came to wonder why those types of simulations are no longer in development? (except for independent development with very limited budget).


So my ''theory'' (this is only a ''theory'', I don't claim to have a certainty on these things)
is that the gaming market is largely influenced by our modern way of life.

i.e. Today everything has to be quick. Quick dinner, quick training, quick entertaining... and so on.

So deep simulations with an important learning curve are no longer attractive (except for a minority, in which I am included).

I think Ubisoft understood that and this is what Dan meant when he said in the interview (the video interview) that you don't have to read 10 books on German U-boat to play the game.


I'm afraid we will have to rely on the modding community in the future to get those games a much more deeper content.

[mookiemookie]

I think you're exactly right. The younger generation has been so bombarded with stimuli that anything requiring a modicum of patience is not appreciated. A subsim is by very definition an exercise in patience and hunting....not a big seller in today's go go now now now world.

I replayed Call of Duty: World At War the other week (there's another thing...it took me 3 days to beat the whole SP game)...and the cutscenes in the game...super slick and well done with the animation, but they just flew by. Any visual element of them wasn't on the screen for more than 1 to 2 seconds. The kids of today wouldn't demand anything different.

Another indicator....check out a blockbuster movie trailer made in the past 5 years. Compare it to one made 30 or 40 years ago. Today's movie trailers are a barrage of images and scenes. Rapid fire eye movement...constant stimulation.

For better or for worse, this is how our entertainment is being fed to us now.

[Iron Budokan]

I expect both of you are correct. Societal interests are always changing, and we are going to have to rely on modders to provide deeper, more meaningful, content.

[conus00]

I think you both nailed it.
Kids don't even read books nowadays.

[Highbury]

I think the game companies want it this way. They want ADD kiddies that always need a new game every two weeks. It costs them less to produce such crap and they make more then they do off of people who are content with a good title for 3 - 5 years.

[Méo]

The younger generation has been so bombarded with stimuli that anything requiring a modicum of patience is not appreciated

Exactly!

I have no idea what will be the solution...it's like trying to solve the insoluble. :-?

Modding will always have limits I guess.

[artao]

... IMHO the 'solution' is companies that actually care about gaming, and not just profits ... how, who, and when are yet to be seen tho ...

[Méo]

I think the game companies want it this way. They want ADD kiddies that always need a new game every two weeks. It costs them less to produce such crap and they make more then they do off of people who are content with a good title for 3 - 5 years.

Yeah! another good point.

[KL-alfman]

cut the pocket-money!!

[Méo]

... IMHO the 'solution' is companies that actually care about gaming, and not just profits

I don't think a company really cares... it's always come down to people in that company, good people cares.

Good, passionate & competent people backed with a good budget can do miracles, IMHO.

[tomoose]

Yup, it's all about "attention span", LOL. I forget where I saw/heard this but as a graphic example look at any modern music video such as seen on MTV (MTV is hard to watch on any given day anyway!:har:). Not one camera angle/view will last more than 5 seconds before it changes. I've actually tried this and it's accurate. Each time the camera view changes in the video start counting, you'll rarely reach 5 seconds. That about sums up the "younger generation" and the quick fix/disposable society we live in (and is probably a clear sign I'm getting older, LOL).:D

[Iron Budokan]

I think you both nailed it.
Kids don't even read books nowadays.

Reading has always been an eclectic activity. And you're right, kids don't read print books, but they do read e-books, more and more.

I expect the argument was much the same when the Gutenberg Press came into being. "These kids nowadays. Don't know the value of vellum!" :O:

[Captain Sub]

Kids don't even read books nowadays.Yea and I as a kid feel pretty damaged, as I have aquired this "faster, quicker, more exciting" mind over many years through this new age of hyper-entertainment. It's ruined my peace and patience and reading books really is harder for me now.


peace

[theluckyone17]

Could be Ubisoft and the Dev's are going by the assumption that the "short attention span" market is larger, and they can make more profit by orienting the game towards them.

However, they've still got the core followers in us old school simulator types. We're obviously devoted to the series. We're willing to spend the time modding the game into a simulator.

So if they market the game towards the "SAS" crowd, in addition to providing the tools to modify the game into a sim, then they've hit both markets with a minimum of effort (thereby maximizing profits).

[Leo_93]

I totally agree with you theluckyone17, its not like the SAS crowd will want to mod a Sim into a navel shoot em up game anyway right.

[Robsoie]

To please every crowd that can be potentially be interested in your subsim, just make plenty of realism optional settings that anyone can modify to tailor the product to his liking.

That worked perfectly in past subsim to get both the action player and the simulation player on the same product without frustrating any of them, it was just a matter of enabling or disabling whatever realism options you wanted.

It was possible to get nearly an arcade level subsim in which torpedoes where autoguided by the most elite "i spot and hear everything" crew, to hit any target that moved after the player was just putting the crosshair on them, or having to setup your firing solutions just to enrage because that was a damn dud torpedo that just made the destroyer now going to be angry after he avoided your previous carefully calculated one.

[Task Force]

Yup, it's all about "attention span", LOL. I forget where I saw/heard this but as a graphic example look at any modern music video such as seen on MTV (MTV is hard to watch on any given day anyway!:har:). Not one camera angle/view will last more than 5 seconds before it changes. I've actually tried this and it's accurate. Each time the camera view changes in the video start counting, you'll rarely reach 5 seconds. That about sums up the "younger generation" and the quick fix/disposable society we live in (and is probably a clear sign I'm getting older, LOL).:D

MT... V NOOO!!! onlything they play is rap.:dead: yea, for people with short attention spans...

[Frederf]

The amusing thing is we are made to feel guilty for re-selling games rapid-fire despite that behavior being exactly that which is cultivated in us. Similarly, publishers and developers complain about the budget that modern graphics requires, again because that is what behavior is cultivated in us.

Entertainment being competitive strives to outdo other entertainment by having "more" and "bigger" events without a thorough understanding of how those events work. A game is often marketed as "more exciting" if enemies come at you in double the numbers, but we all know that doubling the size of the monster or the number of times it breaks out of a wall exactly on cue doesn't double the value of the entertainment. We also know that constant excitement is not possible as excitement is only achievable contrasted with slower-paced events.

An ideal Silent Hunter for example would not increase the rate of torpedoings and sinkings in some blind dash to "make more exciting" but instead let those events being brilliant in their rarity while doing as much as possible to make the times over than those events enjoyable. Examples could be mechanical breakdowns, better weather, D/F radio modeled, etc.

[Safe-Keeper]

Well... they've released four games so far, and they've been fairly sim-my. Can't blame them if they want to try a new tack. It's like the new Star Trek film, I guess, some people like it when you break from convention, some people don't.

I, too, would prefer a sim over this action game, though. I enjoy action games (like the Star Wars Rogue Squadron series), but they often irritate me more than they entertain me. The macho Hollywood approach just isn't for me.

[JScones]

It's certainly about the "instant gratification" and the "I want it and I want it now" society that's crept in over the last 5 or so years.

I'm seeing it at work - 21 year olds that come and then leave because they weren't promoted to CEO within the first week (no, not exaggerating). :doh:

[Méo]

I'm seeing it at work - 21 year olds that come and then leave because they weren't promoted to CEO within the first week (no, not exaggerating). :doh:

:har: sooooooooooo true!

[martes86]

I entered my job as a Junior Programmer when I was 21. Since I'm outsourced, as the vast majority of people working here, I think I'll still be Junior until I am 50, or until I leave to another corporation where I'm a little better paid. :shifty:

[urfisch]

I've already made a post about it but I thought it could fit better for a whole thread.


I've seen so many comments comparing SHV with simulations like Aces of the deep that I came to wonder why those types of simulations are no longer in development? (except for independent development with very limited budget).


So my ''theory'' (this is only a ''theory'', I don't claim to have a certainty on these things)
is that the gaming market is largely influenced by our modern way of life.

i.e. Today everything has to be quick. Quick dinner, quick training, quick entertaining... and so on.

So deep simulations with an important learning curve are no longer attractive (except for a minority, in which I am included).

I think Ubisoft understood that and this is what Dan meant when he said in the interview (the video interview) that you don't have to read 10 books on German U-boat to play the game.


I'm afraid we will have to rely on the modding community in the future to get those games a much more deeper content.

i agree. the time for diving deeply into a game is not existing any more to most of the people. not as much, as in the beginning 90s, when AOD hit the market. and if there is time, it is not used to play a videogame, as the business life is much more harder than 20 years ago - it is used for having fun with the family or for chillin in front of the tv. and if theres a game played, its just "slide into the box and play". fast action.

but i strongly believe, there are still a lot of people who like to have some deeper goin game content. and this niche (it always was!) will not die.

[ichso]

So my ''theory'' (this is only a ''theory'', I don't claim to have a certainty on these things)
is that the gaming market is largely influenced by our modern way of life.

i.e. Today everything has to be quick. Quick dinner, quick training, quick entertaining... and so on.

Is that so surprising ?
Whether you see creating such games as art or as a business, both aspects are influenced by social trends. And always where.

But trends also change and old habits experience some kind of reappearance over time.
Like I read about the other day that those career-orientated families with few to no children getting out of fashion again and somewhat larger families are having a slight comeback, at least in Europe that was.
So style and taste in gaming, movies, music and many other things that are influenced by society might change back too.

Another possibility is that society as a whole won't slow don't but that individual people will start searching for some slow down in their lives which could lead to a more thought-full approach of gaming as well.

[Méo]

So style and taste in gaming, movies, music and many other things that are influenced by society might change back too.

Sure, but I guess I'm gonna be pretty old before the style & taste of gaming come back approximately to what it was before.

[jerm138]

A game is often marketed as "more exciting" if enemies come at you in double the numbers, but we all know that doubling the size of the monster or the number of times it breaks out of a wall exactly on cue doesn't double the value of the entertainment. We also know that constant excitement is not possible as excitement is only achievable contrasted with slower-paced events.

THIS is why I think Call of Duty Modern Warfare 2 is one of the WORST games I have ever played.

I've played shooters from the beginning, starting with Wolfenstein3D. I spent many years playing the Rainbow6 and Ghost Recon series. I liked these games for the same reason I like Silent Hunter... lots of brainwork and planning that pays off when you get a finely calculated attack. 20 minutes of anticipation followed by 2 minutes of excitement will get your heart pumping!

COD4MW2 was just a non-stop barrage of "action." Definitely made with the ADD generation in mind. You become numb within the first 10 minutes of the game. The excitement is gone, because you're just constantly mowing down enemies, 100% of the time. It never slows down. Anticipation never builds (except for the couple of missions where you're sneaking around, but even there you're being directed where to go and what to do, so you can't plan anything.)

[Platapus]

Ah these kids today with their Rock and Roll :damn:

Kids!
I don't know what's wrong with these kids today!
Kids!
Who can understand anything they say?
Kids!
They a disobedient, disrespectful oafs!
Noisy, crazy, dirty, lazy, loafers!
While we're on the subject:
Kids!
You can talk and talk till your face is blue!
Kids!
But they still just do what they want to do!
Why can't they be like we were,
Perfect in every way?
What's the matter with kids today?
Kids!
I've tried to raise him the best I could
Kids! Kids!
Laughing, singing, dancing, grinning, morons!
And while we're on the subject!
Kids! They are just impossible to control!
Kids! With their awful clothes and their rock an' roll!
Why can't they dance like we did
What's wrong with Sammy Caine?
What's the matter with kids today!

Oh and another thing

GET OFF MY LAWN! :D

[frau kaleun]

What's the matter with kids today!

Oh and another thing

GET OFF MY LAWN!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=594WLzzb3JI

:O:

[EAF274 Johan]

I have to say, I disagree with the notion that it's the kids' fault :D From what I am seeing, there are plenty of young people who enjoy things like a good book, strategy game and other "sophisticated" activities.

I put the blame squarely on the guys in suits. For them, indeed, "Today everything has to be quick." They want to make a quick buck, and so they choose the quick and easy path: make a game with great graphics that will look good in the previews (those previews are not just meant to impress the public, but also the other suits in the industry), and cut corners and development costs where actual gameplay is involved. They know this will look good on their resume, so after two or three projects they can move on to something else. It's a phenomenon you see in all sectors, not just the games industry.

All that talk about "gearing the game toward the casual player" is rubbish corporate speak and they know it. It's all about maximum profit for minimum input. In the times when the market wasn't dominated yet by a handful of big developers/publishers, companies thrived on the reputation of their products. These days this has become unimportant: instead you generate quick cash so you can buy out your smaller competitors.

Darn it, I want a revolution :arrgh!:

[danurve]

I have a theory to;

I'll be playing alot more GRAW2 in the future since the latest PC build can deal with it full bore. Funny thing about that I have local saves and it's by Ubisoft so they still get their 9$.

[MasterCaine]

Good theory, Meo. I think today's shallow movies and games reflect the shallowness and short attention spans of many sheeple, especially younger sheeple. These corporations are in it for the money, and only for the money. They don't give a crap about a few hardcore players who want realism. They are giving the shallow masses what they desire.

I think it's now safe to say that SH5 will most likely be an online arcade game. :dead:

[JU_88]

Lay off the Kids, they just thrive on on what us adults feed them.
feed them crap and they will adjust to crap.

[Steeltrap]

One interesting question is the degree to which the game industry became a business and not an art. Really clever, long-lasting gameplay is generally a thing of the past.

These days it's all flashy graphics to catch your eye but the underlying game is shallow/boring. As someone said, it's a bit like music. I think music videos are one of the worst things to happen to music, as they all end up looking like some soft-porn with hyperative elevator music behind them.

Once you needed clever, entertaining gameplay to keep you interested, as the graphics were really fairly basic. Similarly, companies needed to get their games right on release as they couldn't be patched via internet. In short, they were an evolution from board games.

Now they are flashy, pretty emptiness, with poor AI and often shockingly poor quality issues.

When in doubt, blame the marketers. They'll dumb anything down and cheapen it in nearly every sense of the word as they are remunerated wholly by sales, and not long-term customer retention.

[Mud]

Some FS add-on planes do have a steep learning curve before you can fly it.
And as far as I know they sell well and comes with a price tag.
It's not what the market needs but the publishers needs to push out a game asap.
It's far more easier to give a command like crash dive in a so called "simulator" then push all the buttons yourself to do the same job.
So it's not the gamer who is hasty 'cos he can spend 10 hours a day to play a game but the game industry who's in a rush to make profit.

Mud

[the_belgian]

:zzz::zzz::zzz:
as i fear it,silent hunter 8 will be a 3-D movie on wich you can select "win-lose" at the beginning.
after that you sit back and view the game,sometimes you will be forced to add some upgrades(maybe they will include an "automatic upgrades") but your greatest worry will become that the pizza is delivered before your sub attacks a convoy!
after a beautifull fight(auto screenshots included),you will then be able to share the results on this forum in stunning 3-D(and for those with a better computer with smell of the sea and oil included).
some of the older generation will then shock the newagers with their stories about silent hunter 5 where you had to make every dicision yourself and could not let go of the mouse(mouse?what is a mouse?) while scanning the horizon without risking to miss an airplane...
:zzz::zzz::zzz:

[Méo]

One interesting question is the degree to which the game industry became a business and not an art. Really clever, long-lasting gameplay is generally a thing of the past.

Particularly true when I think about games like Fallout 1 and Panzer General 2, those were the good old days. :cry:

I guess the best thing to do is not having too much expectation for early march, although it would be somewhat hard now to have high expectations. :-?

[Mud]

as i fear it,silent hunter 8 will be a 3-D movie on wich you can select "win-lose" at the beginning.

snip/

(and for those with a better computer with smell of the sea and oil included).



No computer mate, future is console :yep:

Mud

[Onkel Neal]

the gaming market is largely influenced by our modern way of life.

i.e. Today everything has to be quick. Quick dinner, quick training, quick entertaining... and so on.


Today? Actually, I think over the last 30 years it's been that way. People have grown up this way. That's why the internet is full of people who whip out instant generalizations without waiting for the facts.

[Diopos]

Today? Actually, I think over the last 30 years it's been that way. People have grown up this way. That's why the internet is full of people who whip out instant generalizations without waiting for the facts.

Eventually we'll get rid of the "facts" altogether and just have "opinions" ..., prepackaged ones, too.
:hmmm:




.

[sav112]

No computer mate, future is console :yep:

Mud

You might be right, I watch in awe as I play with My best friends wee one on the xbox. He's seven and before you can say "What is it you want me to play" he has it loaded up (Modern Warfare) online and fighting with others in some zombie attack mode two minutes flat and looking amazing. The only thing he has to ask is permission to use the Massive flat screen TV when I’m there.

I’m always amazed at the easy he can do all this at seven. He plays with others in his street after school and they are playing as a team and talking to each other with head sets…Its quick instant these days.

God knows at seven I was probably out on my bike and at best remember waiting for ages for BBC Model B games to load up or worse still spectrums with there tapes loading up and lets be honest they looked crap but we loved them. "Elite" anyone!

[Adriatico]

Could be Ubisoft and the Dev's are going by the assumption that the "short attention span" market is larger, and they can make more profit by orienting the game towards them.

However, they've still got the core followers in us old school simulator types. We're obviously devoted to the series. We're willing to spend the time modding the game into a simulator.

So if they market the game towards the "SAS" crowd, in addition to providing the tools to modify the game into a sim, then they've hit both markets with a minimum of effort (thereby maximizing profits).

I have the same understanding... since the first screenshots.

BUT, there is a catch... what % of SH moders community would be willing to mode "online handcuffs"... if they are not even inspired to buy it.

I don't think that GWX3 would ever appear on DRM platform...

( "short attention span" market doesn't seem that large also... but it is not the topic )

You can not cut "simulation base" to 15-20% and expect modding army...
:hmmm:

And it is not only "the number of modders" issue, but: would they be inspired to spend hours and nights - for disappearing community...

[Méo]

Today? Actually, I think over the last 30 years it's been that way.

Well it's your opinion. I would say it is particularly true now when we can access almost everything with internet without delay. (Although I did not mention it in the OP, this is what I meant)

Edit: not only internet, cell phone, GPS, etc.

[Adriatico]

Right Meo...
When I was a kid, one of the greatest events was Sunday breakfast and lunch... and my kid is "offended" for being forced to join us at table, for missing part of cartoon at TV or "pausing" the Lego Star Wars on PC...
:yep:

[Méo]

Right Meo...
When I was a kid, one of the greatest events was Sunday breakfast and lunch... and my kid is "offended" for being forced to join us at table, for missing part of cartoon at TV or "pausing" the Lego Star Wars on PC...
:yep:

Ok mister, since you seem to be so clever maybe you have a better explanation why deep simulations like Aces of the deep are no longer in development? (except for independent development with very limited budget).

So we could learn something.

[cappy70]

I agree with the fast pace and what Neal added about that it has been going on for awhile now, i.e. PC ( Amiga was waaay superior:rock: as gaming platforms in early 80:ies, and that's nearly 30 years go), for example, since mid 80:ies, I mean regarding PC in a "value way" regarding speed etc,etc.
Internet "started" about 15 years ago on a broad market, I got my connection 1995.:arrgh!::D

[Méo]

I agree with the fast pace and what Neal added about that it has been going on for awhile now

I know it has been going on for awhile.

Nothing happens suddenly, it's a tendency.

[Onkel Neal]

Ok mister, since you seem to be so clever maybe you have a better explanation why deep simulations like Aces of the deep are no longer in development? (except for independent development with very limited budget).

So we could learn something.

Just my opinion, :shucks: I would say that although Aces was a great sim for its time, it is nowhere near as deep as SH3/SH4/Sub Command/ Dangerous Waters. What do you think makes Aces is "deeper" than SH3? It does radio messages better than SH3, had good gameplay, and some static messages from the "bar", but where does Aces surpass the quad mentioned above? Aces has no sonar station, no manual TDC, very limited ability to "look around" on the bridge, static stations, Crummy graphics compared to today, and no AI crew.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to override your opinion or start a fight, but I think this is a nice topic to discuss and I am curious on what you base that on. :up:

[Adriatico]

Ok mister, since you seem to be so clever maybe you have a better explanation why deep simulations like Aces of the deep are no longer in development? (except for independent development with very limited budget).

So we could learn something.
???
You got it wrong Meo...
I just confirmed your point, that today's pace of living, including entertainment, has accelerated in a last few years...

Few years ago, Simhq.com was just a simulation site (good one) and these days there are shooters, RTS, clssic strategies,... everything.

It seems that simulation is dying... except Oleg's work.
If it was up to Ubi... it would end up as arcade easy-entertainment.

[Onkel Neal]

???
You got it wrong Meo...
I just confirmed your point, that today's pace of living, including entertainment, has accelerated in a last few years...

Few years ago, Simhq.com was just a simulation site (good one) and these days there are shooters, RTS, clssic strategies,... everything.
It seems that simulation is dying... except Oleg's work.
If it was up to Ubi... it would end up as arcade easy entertainment.


Yeah, I agree, it's pretty obvious that good sims are becoming a dying breed. They were always a niche market, and over the last 10 years, fewer people buy them and the people who support them have become extremely picky and demanding. Ask any games journalist and they will tell you, sim players can be their own worst enemies :cry:

[Méo]

???
You got it wrong Meo...

Ooops... read too fast, :oops: See, I'm way too much influenced! :D

Just my opinion, :shucks: I would say that although Aces was a great sim for its time, it is nowhere near as deep as SH3/SH4/Sub Command/ Dangerous Waters. What do you think makes Aces is "deeper" than SH3? It does radio messages better than SH3, had good gameplay, and some static messages from the "bar", but where does Aces surpass the quad mentioned above? Aces has no sonar station, no manual TDC, very limited ability to "look around" on the bridge, static stations, Crummy graphics compared to today, and no AI crew.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to override your opinion or start a fight, but I think this is a nice topic to discuss and I am curious on what you base that on. :up:

Well I admit those are only conjectures. I've based my comparison with Aces of the deep on so many comments I've seen so far, (never played it). They were all saying the complete opposite of this:
Aces was a great sim for its time, it is nowhere near as deep as SH3/SH4/

But I just miss the good old days of Fallout 1, Panzer General 2, etc. :cry: ... and people here (and Ubi too) have almost convinced me that SH5 would be dumbed down.

[Onkel Neal]

Well I admit those are only conjectures. I've based my comparison with Aces of the deep on so many comments I've seen so far, (never played it). They were all saying the complete opposite of this:



Wait, what? :o Lol, you haven't even played it? Well, if you're going to form opinions on what "they" say, please include some links or something so I can see what they are basing that on. :yep:

[Safe-Keeper]

Not only are they , they also feel an absurd need to hand-hold you through the game, providing even the most basic and rudimentary help in the form of messages. Modern Warfare takes this to the extreme.

There's the Specter gunship mission where they tell you a dozen times in the same mission that flashing IR strobes means friendlies; the fact that you see the "watch for the grenade indicator" messag every time a grenade kills you; the way it spams hint messages like "Hit Left to switch to grenade launcher" that obscur large portions of the screen (even when you don't want to use that weapon you have to switch to it to make the stupid message go away)...

It's as if even the Modern Warfare developers are growing tired of catering to the metaphorical "ADD crowd", and so have decided to bully you for being thick enough to enjoy their game. "You want hand-holding? I'll give you hand-holding! Muahahahahah, sucker!"

Hit the http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/smartdark/reply.gif button to reply to this message.

As a side note, I confess that despite its shortcomings, I found MW and its sequel to be lots of fun, especially in co-op mode.

[Méo]

Wait, what? :o Lol, you haven't even played it? Well, if you're going to form opinions on what "they" say, please include some links or something so I can see what they are basing that on. :yep:

Ok, ok...

Links, it's been a while, there are SOOOO MANY threads in subsim.com and searching could take hours (many comments were/are off-topic), that's why I said this:I've seen so many comments comparing SHV with simulations like Aces of the deep that I came to wonder why those types of simulations are no longer in development?

Seriously, there are a lot of members (veterans, I don't want to show name and start a drama) who, I'm almost sure, would completely disagree with this:Aces was a great sim for its time, it is nowhere near as deep as SH3/SH4

At least those who agree with you did not say a word until you did!;)

Nevertheless, when I started to play PC games (around 1997), I can only notice a tendency of dumbing down successful series (Fallout, Rainbow six, etc.)

Remember, I've also said this:So my ''theory'' (this is only a ''theory'', I don't claim to have a certainty on these things)

[Mikhayl]

Aces and SH1 have the limitations of their days, but other than that they were, and still are fairly solid games. I was really surprised how good SH1 still is, sometimes you tend to embelish your old memories, but this game is really good.

The prob with SH3 and 4 (besides my opinion on gameplay flaws :O:) is that they completely missed some obvious features, and those aren't in any way limited by the tech available.
One of the obvious, the land that "doesn't exist". Sail just north of Scapa, hidden by the island, and the battleships in the harbour will open up on you. Sit on the bottom (need mod for that) and enemy DDs can pick you up without problem. It can't get more basic than that for a sub game, and it's absent. When you read that wolfpacks barely made it in game but that the exterior sub model has 1 million polygons, well it's clear that the focus isn't quite the same as the old sims.

If a small indie dev made a loose remake of SH1/AOD with all the good old features + the good new features (hydrophone, TDC tools, crew management) with low-tech (cheap and quick) but crispy graphics, I'm sure simmers would buy it.

[IanC]

SH3 has a steeper learning curve than AOD because of the manual targeting, but the general point that todays gamer suffers from slight ADD still stands... or does it? I feel like there might be a little "why back in my days things were better" thing going on. Kids don't read books anymore.. is that even true? What about the whole Harry Potter thing? They might also be doing alot of reading, just that it's on a screen now instead of books?
50 Years from now I'm willing to bet that there will be serious, complex flight sims, and subsims, I mean, things can't be getting dumber and dumber right?

[Onkel Neal]

At least those who agree with you did not say a word until you did!;)





They are welcome to disagree with me, my opinion is just one of many. But this is like how a buddy of mine came back from a Vegas weekend with $89,000 a tatoo and a wife--I gotta hear more about this :ping:

Aces and SH1 have the limitations of their days, but other than that they were, and still are fairly solid games. I was really surprised how good SH1 still is, sometimes you tend to embelish your old memories, but this game is really good.


If a small indie dev made a loose remake of SH1/AOD with all the good old features + the good new features (hydrophone, TDC tools, crew management) with low-tech (cheap and quick) but crispy graphics, I'm sure simmers would buy it.

Yes, they definitely were great games.

[Adriatico]

There is a separate set of problems with simulations:

If you make a simulation - you will have many bugs...
If you make a shooter - there is small ground for bugs...

Most of publishers don't have patience for patch 1, 2, 3... till the simulator is playable.

Bohemia made Armed Assault 2 (OFP 2) and it was blasted by critics as unplayable sack of bugs... of course if you have 10-20 AI units that are "thinking", "reacting", "using warfare technology", "changing tactics",...etc that many bugs have to be polished.

Today, after patch 1.5, it is completed and polished great infantry sim, but modern pace is cruel, it has a "bad name" and who cares about it.

And of course, there is competition of titles that you can "instantly play" without reading ten books on warfare, as Dan would say...

[Méo]

Don't get me wrong, maybe I was wrong in my OP.

Maybe it's just that success and/or power 'corrupt'

There are a LOT of successful title that have been 'corrupted' - i.e I prefer the good old Simpsons episodes than the new ones. The first Matrix was cool, the third was awful! :down: (I'm sure we could show many other examples)

...we can only hope it will not be the case for SH5. :hmmm:

[IanC]

Don't get me wrong, maybe I was wrong in my OP.

Maybe it's just that success 'corrupt'

There are a LOT of successful title that have been 'corrupted' - i.e I prefer the good old Simpsons episodes than the new ones. The first Matrix was cool, the third was awful! :down: (I'm sure we could show many other examples)

Again, that might be the "back in my day things were better" phenomena. The new generation Star Wars fans love the last three, while we adults hate them. And the cycle will continue. Maybe something to do with memory and nostalgia? What if AOD was just put out today, what would we say about it? We would complain about the graphics and no manual targeting etc..

[Mikhayl]

Yeah, "kids these days" are a convenient scapegoat.

There is a profitable market for sims, but it's small and it's a tough crowd (kids and adults alike).
The "mainstream" market is much larger and people are allegedly easier to please (kids and adult alike).
Publishers and shareholders aren't know for making bold decisions, so here we go. Here, have more polygons :()1:

[Méo]

Again, that might be the "back in my day things were better" phenomena. The new generation Star Wars fans love the last three, while we adults hate them. And the cycle will continue. Maybe something to do with memory and nostalgia? What if AOD was just put out today, what would we say about it? We would complain about the graphics and no manual targeting etc..

That's an interesting point, but I'm trying to be as objective as I can when I say that games like Fallout 1 were better than Fallout 3 (of course it always come down to what each person likes), but IMHO the Fallout series had been dumbed down.

Another example, the new Terminator Salvation and James Cameron Terminator 2

In those examples, this is not the same people who made each of the game/movie of the series, and at least we know it is approximately the same people who are making SH5

[ryanglavin]

You might be right, I watch in awe as I play with My best friends wee one on the xbox. He's seven and before you can say "What is it you want me to play" he has it loaded up (Modern Warfare) online and fighting with others in some zombie attack mode two minutes flat and looking amazing. The only thing he has to ask is permission to use the Massive flat screen TV when I’m there.

I’m always amazed at the easy he can do all this at seven. He plays with others in his street after school and they are playing as a team and talking to each other with head sets…Its quick instant these days.

God knows at seven I was probably out on my bike and at best remember waiting for ages for BBC Model B games to load up or worse still spectrums with there tapes loading up and lets be honest they looked crap but we loved them. "Elite" anyone!

To be correct, in 2009, i think the stats had PC games selling the most....

[IanC]

That's an interesting point, but I'm trying to be as objective as I can when I say that games like Fallout 1 were better than Fallout 3 (of course it always come down to what each person likes), but IMHO the Fallout series had been dumbed down.

Another example, the new Terminator Salvation and James Cameron Terminator 2

Yes I know what you mean. Rainbow Six is a painful example as to what can happen when a game gets console-ized. But the reverse is also true, some games today are better than their predecessors. I'm thinking Half Life 2, Battle of Britain 2, I'm sure there's many more. Are games really getting worse today... interesting question :hmmm:

[Méo]

But the reverse is also true, some games today are better than their predecessors. I'm thinking Half Life 2, Battle of Britain 2, I'm sure there's many more. Are games really getting worse today... interesting question :hmmm:

Yep! :hmmm:

and Jimbuna is surely thinking something like: All will be revealed in March. :DL

[IanC]

Yep! :hmmm:

and Jimbuna is surely thinking something like: All will be revealed in March. :DL

:lol: I think I'm going to start my own thing... In March, all will be revealed {patent pending}