Israel into the EU...???

[Skybird]

:dead: :dead: :dead:

Berlusconi wants Israel joining the EU, so reported by German, Swiss and Israeli newspapers and several English blogs.

I wonder who is more retarded here: Berlusconi trying to bring a hot warzone into the EU, or the Israelis if they would be dumb enough to follow such an invitation, if the EU would made it a serious offer.

It is in nobody's interest, only the Muslim world's. The Europeans in no way are able and ready to handle a warzone, and the Israelis would find themselves very critically gagged and bound by European laws and policies prohibiting them to execute their right of self-defence when clashing with Hezbollah, Hamas, Syria or Iran. Military support they would not have to expect, for that europe is too sensible and culturally too advanced, but an army of EU lawyers wuld go after them, and sanctions trying to bind them both hands on their back while getting beaten up. Lovely.

Plus: the territory of Israels lies outside Europe, in the Orient, the Middle East. If Israel is allowed into the EU, then there is no argument anymore not to count South Africa and Korea, Marocco and Saudi Arabia as "EU", too.

But I fear there are enough brain-amputees in the EU's political offices who seriously feel liftet by the idea. It would give them remarkable options to weaklen and destroy the unloved Jewish state. Good opportunity to try getting more pally with the muslims again.


Be clever and wise, Israel, and don't believe in any european's word, ever. Kick Berlusconi's lower bottom out of your country, soon, and forget his nightmarish wish immediately. Concerning Europe, you stand alone. And alone you are stronger than with the EU blackmailing you and calling it "alliance".

P.S. But I must insist that the next two submarines you now demand Germany to deliver , must actually payed by you for sure. ;) Not like the last time: getting Germany sharing some of the cost, with you saying you pay only a minor share of it, and then jnot even paying this minor share, but paying nothing, getting all the boats for 100% free.

[kranz]

:dead: :dead: :dead:
Plus: the territory of Israels lies outside Europe, in the Orient, the Middle East.

and where is Turkey? Plus you like doner kebabs, don't ya?

[Skybird]

Where Turkey is? Not inside the european cultural context and ethical value order, that is sure. ;)

And no, I do not like Döner. Not because they are a Berlin Turkman's invention, but becasue I do not like them. Like I also do not like Hamburger or Mexican Chili. Terrible way to assimilate calories. Italian, Chinese, some Japanese and some German cuisine do well enough for me.

[Oberon]

Yeah...Israel...in the EU...got nothing against Israel but I can't see that happening any time soon. :nope:

Berlusconi must not have gotten laid recently... :damn: He's becoming more incoherent than usual...

[Happy Times]

Isrealis would really like the free movement of people and goods for sure.:yeah:

But seriously im all for giving Israel everything but the official membership, in all areas of co-operation.
Strongest possible ties are in the best interest of both i believe.

[Tribesman]

Plus: the territory of Israels lies outside Europe, in the Orient, the Middle East. If Israel is allowed into the EU, then there is no argument anymore not to count South Africa and Korea, Marocco and Saudi Arabia as "EU", too.

How many places outside Europe are already part of the EU.

[JSLTIGER]

Berlusconi must not have gotten laid recently... :damn: He's becoming more incoherent than usual...

Maybe that assault loosened a bit more than a couple of teeth....:88) :hmmm:

That being said, I don't quite know how I feel about this proposal...I see upsides and downsides to it.

[Letum]

They would never agree to the entry criteria.

[Spoon 11th]

and where is Turkey? Plus you like doner kebabs, don't ya?

Haha, fail. Israel? No thanks. Turkey? No thanks.

[DarkFish]

and where is Turkey? Plus you like doner kebabs, don't ya?Döner kebab, yum!http://planetsmilies.net/eat-drink-smiley-542.gif

But how tasteful their cuisine might be, I don't think either Israel or Turkey should join the EU. It's the European Union, and as you can see from the picture below neither Israel or (90% of) Turkey are part of Europe.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c6/Europe_%28orthographic_projection%29.svg/200px-Europe_%28orthographic_projection%29.svg.png
In the case any of the two should join the EU, IMO Turkey has got more rights because at least the Northwestern part of it is European.

[Skybird]

Döner kebab, yum!http://planetsmilies.net/eat-drink-smiley-542.gif

But how tasteful their cuisine might be, I don't think either Israel or Turkey should join the EU. It's the European Union, and as you can see from the picture below neither Israel or (90% of) Turkey are part of Europe.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c6/Europe_%28orthographic_projection%29.svg/200px-Europe_%28orthographic_projection%29.svg.png
In the case any of the two should join the EU, IMO Turkey has got more rights because at least the Northwestern part of it is European.

5% Would be closer to it I think, however, the main argument is the massive cultural difference between the West and the Orient, not geographical hairsplitting. Turkey's culture in very dominant parts violates basic Western conceptions that has been anchored in our constitutional orders as well as our philosophic traditions and law systems, although we have started to loosen these ties.

Seen that way, Israel is - culturally - many times closer to us, than Turkey, and the similiarities between it'S state structure and legislation and that of EU states are much greater than between European states and Turkey.

And a state like Turkey:

that is so secular that it runs a state-driven religion-ministry,

that inteferes with the internal politics of other foreign nations and does not hide that it uses demographic pressure for trying to turn them over and bring them under Turkish influence
(former turkish president Demirel once told former German chancellor Schmidt that he demands Germany to take 15 million Turks, and that Turkey will produce these legions of colonists and that Germany gefälligst has to let them in,
while Erdogan two years ago on a visit in Germany told Turkish colonists that they should actively refuse integration, that demanding them to integrate would be equal a crime against humanity),

this Turkey

whose government and political leaders just months ago have declared to the world that the genocides and massacres committed by Muslims in Sudan and Darfhur,

and the nuclear conspiracies of Syria

cannot be any wrongdoing, because these countires are Islamic countries and thus they are unable to ever do any wrong;

this Turkey where the fundamentalists have taken over government and enforced Islamic rules in the state's services and education systems again, resulting in orthodox hardliners and fundamentalistic lobbies increasingly taking over keyposts, with women quotas in jobs and public offices having seen a massive drop since Erdogan took over -

this Turkey should be handled with greater care than barrels with radioactive waste.

[OneToughHerring]

Yea well, it's not exactly like the world doesn't already know that the Germans have a problem with the Jews. Oh yea, we know this very well.

As far as Israel joining up, I wounldn't mind them trying to meet the criteria. I doubt they would ever give up their rights to wage wars against civilians, torture etc.

[Biggles]

:dead: :dead: :dead:

Berlusconi wants.....


Well that's pretty much enough for me. I can't stand that bloke, I've seen spambots smarter than him.

On a more serious note, while not having anything particular against Israel, I say, no to EU. EU=European Union. Israel isn't a part of Europe geographically so...(Yes, for me, it's that simple).

[goldorak]

@ Skybird : I agree 100% with your assessment.
I have only a little critic to make, its not only the muslim world that has to gain from Israel's entry into the European Community but also the US.
Never forget the US. It is they that have for decades pushed for Turkey's entry in the EU, and now they are trying to push Israel in as well. And for what ? Their strategic vision is different from ours. They see the EU not as a homogeneous political and economical entity with its specific borders dicated by history, but as loosely knit of countries that support NATO. Americans don't care and never have about the political european process. What they care is having a set of countries into NATO to act as a stop gap against russia, against a future middle east danger etc....
It doesn't matter if the identity of europe is compromised, Turkey, Israel, who knows maybe even some north african countries in the future.
Nato is a danger to europe, it should have been dismantled the moment the cold war ended. Unfortunately we still have it, and its the service door through which american influence still manages to harm us. Of course our own politicians don't help in the process.

[CaptainHaplo]

Goldorak,

Interesting thought and perspective. But what makes you think the US would support Israel in the EU? From my perspective, such a thing would be a huge negative for the US, and I suspect that we would advise Israel against joining.

Nato as an entity really has changed, and is no longer a huge political concern for us.

[Castout]

lol I don't think Israel is that stupid to accept invitation to join EU....

as for the submarines.....pay for them Israel, should be ashamed for refusing to pay the first two :yep:

[goldorak]

Goldorak,
Interesting thought and perspective. But what makes you think the US would support Israel in the EU? From my perspective, such a thing would be a huge negative for the US, and I suspect that we would advise Israel against joining.


If history is something to go by, Americans are not very picky about NATO membership if it advaces its goals. Turkey is not exactly an example of democratic country, and yet Washington has endorsed purely for geostrategic reason Ankara's entry into NATO.
Having Israel into NATO would give the americans a direct foot into the middle east. Having troops stationed in Iraq is a different thing than having troops stationed inside a country that is a member of NATO. This would be an enormous win-win situation for Washington politically and militarily. And I should add that Israel is a little more inclined to the US than Turkey ever was.


Nato as an entity really has changed, and is no longer a huge political concern for us.

You're so mistaken about this CaptainHaplo.

[Skybird]

I agree that the US, and Britain, always have pushed for Turkey getting into the EU. It is both a false idea of what this would do to relations with Islam, and the intention to keep the EU weak and a choir with as many voices as possible in order to minimise the chance that it decisively act in unity against American interests - divide and conquer, you see. The British policy even before the past century always has been dominated by their attempt to divide the continental powers and drive splits between them. In the past 500 years, this often has been done by all major powers inEurope, by this establishing a system of balancing the power of nations in such a way to prevent wars: whenever one became too strong, the others all united against him. The greatest disturbance to this balancing of powers has been Napoleon.

I agree on your conclusion that the US wants Turkey into the EU, but I see the reasons different than your description. The US does not understand how the ethnic diversity and different grown histories form realities in europe that in this way they do not know in America, since America from the beginning on - the just short ago beginning - has been a nation without regional national identities. Americans tend to not understand why the people of europe cannot and do not want to come together in the very same way like they seem to do in america. But the starting conditions of both continents, America and Europe, have been so very and completely different. The US wants very well a united Europe, already Kissinger complained that if he wanted to contact Europe, he would not have a telephone number to call "it". But the US wants this united Europe to be functioning like itself, and being orientated like itself, so that is is a helpful ally and vasall to American interests - not a rival. There is a lot of misperceptions playing a role here, because America very often sees Europe by comparing it to itself, not realising the differences. This is an almost traditional weakness of American foreign policy since ever: to assume that how things are run in america necessarily must function in allmother regions and cultures of the world, too. Last time this manifestated in the naive assumtoions about how the ME would change and how easy it would be to change the societies in Afghanistan and Iraq. It is a missionary basic attitude that is unrealsitic and does not learn from it'S past. The only time it ever worked in great effect, was with post-war Germany. And that is becasue off all socieities america ever "missionised" :) German culture, after all, still was of the same branch like America, and was despite the differences quite familiar, and close.

That Washington also pushes for Israel joining the EU, I have not been aware of so far. I only know that many idiots in the EU want to widen the EU to North Africa as well, including nations that really, beyond any doubt, neither geographically nor culturally are parts of Europe (Marocco, Lybia, Algeria). That is a mixture of over extension, megalomania, money-maker-lobbyism and infantile missionary spirit (am Brusseller Wesen muß!!! die Welt genesen - else the EU's self-understanding of being so great, so fantastic, so beautiful would be put in question). I wonder in how far this corresponds with Islam's demand that the Mediterranean Sea has to be turned into a Muslim inland lake again, like it has been during the period of Islamic conquest in Europe when parts of Spain, France, Italy, Sicily and Greece had been occupied by Islamic conquerors.

Anyhow, recent decisions by Ankara made against the will of Washington have demonstrated that Turkey has set sail to no longer be satisfied with playing the role of the obedient NATO vasall, they already rebelled in 2003 when they did not cooperate with America's plans for troops transports to Iraq through Turkey. especially in the past two yars there have been many more decisions that in parts are even affronts to Washington (another reason why America poushes the EU so strongly to accept turkey in: it is an attempt to appease Ankara and not loosing any more inflouence there, so the ameican policy really has not much to do with the best interest of the EU, but is simply selfish calculation). Turkish nationalism is strong in Turkey (and Germany!) and they have made it clear by deeds and diplomacy that the have shifted their focus towards establishing a sphere of influence with themselves at the centre. Only that way their attempts to improve ties with Syria and Iran (their greatest rivals for dominance) even at the cost of alientating the precious, the great, the wonderful EU, make sense. Erdogan thought EU membership would be a cheap opportunity to spread his religious attitude - fundamental Islam - into the West stronger than before, fulfilling the promises that the Osmans had started when invading Europe militarily. It seems to me that the chances for a Turkish EU membership have decreased, which is good, and that Erdogan has realised that and thus shifted his focus to the South-East of Turkey. Well, birds of same feather flock together, so let him go. Secularism in Turkey will be fought back even more in the future, giving islam more power again and again. A clearly defined enemy is better than a false friend. And Turkey is no more a trustworthy NATO ally (the Israelis demonstrated that clearly when not telling them in advance that they would trike Turkey's ally, Syria), vasall of Washington, or friend of Europe. For Atatürk, the latter was just a tool to battle the influence of Islam and anchor secularism in turkish society, hoping to modenrise it. Now that his experiment mostly has failed and the fundamentalists rule the fate of the country again - with huge public approval - the instrumental purpose of Attatürk has been replaced with Islam's demand to take over Europe (which especially towards Germany has been said very clear in words, repeatedly). Turkey is no longer our friend since the AKP was voted into power at the latest.

[Fish]

Looks like a diversionary tactic. :D