Seriously, would you dare... [Archive] - SUBSIM Radio Room Forums

Méo

01-31-10, 05:49 PM

Seriously, would you dare to speak about DRM (and how much it's a drama for you) in plublic, I mean... with your girlfriend, your friends, your teammate at work, your family, etc.

No offence to the one who posted that, but when I saw a thread that somewhat linked a personal news with ''these dark times'' it made think...:hmmm:

Seems to me that a lot of people here take all this too seriously.

...at my work, just before the new year's eve, someone committed suicide (his wife left him a month ago, but he wasn't a friend of mine).

So if I told guys at work that I'm currently having ''dark times'' and explaining them the DRM thing, THEY WOULD LAUGH AT ME BIG TIME (...and No, they aren't currently laughing at me).

Anyway, the question remains, would you dare to speak (not to write here) about DRM drama in public? ;)

IanC

01-31-10, 05:54 PM

Meh, it is what it is. A pain in the butt. I would only talk about it if a bud was also a gamer.

Nisgeis

01-31-10, 05:55 PM

Er... DARE? What?! How is speaking in public different to writing in public? Would I talk to a friend at work about how Ubisoft are treating their paying customer like criminals, yes, but only with someone else who was also interested in gaming. Everyone else would be bored to tears.

Brag

01-31-10, 05:56 PM

I would, the subject would not be games, but the intrusion of big business into your personal life.:salute:

IanC

01-31-10, 05:58 PM

I would, the subject would not be games, but the intrusion of big business into your personal life.:salute:

:hmmm:

Rosencrantz

01-31-10, 05:58 PM

Well, to be honest, I have already told my girl that this forum just did go mad couple days ago. And as I have dealt with corpses almost every day last 17 years, I'm pretty sure she found out news from the forum both funny and more entertaining than if I just told her something else about my day...

And this wasn't a joke. Death losts its drama after it becomes to your everyday life.

-RC-

HundertzehnGustav

01-31-10, 05:58 PM

No problem with that. I am surrounded by Gamers, from 20 to 65 all the time. We are discussing Games often, but i am an outsider - the others prefer MMORPG,s FPS or Role playing. I am for s litle strategy and Sims.
The DRM issues are to us not only about games, it is to us about control and dependancy. The future of mankind and such.

Nisgeis

01-31-10, 06:01 PM

What the hell is this? You do know that the games industry is larger than the film and music industry combined don't you? It's not like gamers are weirdos who live in their mum's basement. What's with all the embarrasment about playing and discussing games?

DaveU186

01-31-10, 06:02 PM

Who dares wins.

:rock:

ME$$ENGER

01-31-10, 06:03 PM

Well, that's like saying talking about Windows activation in public is somehow embarrasing. It's not and people do that all the time. The point right now is not that silent hunter 5 is a game in a niche genre we happen to like. The point is it's a software bundled with something intrusive and unnecessary for the customers and we as the end users do not like it.

Steeltrap

01-31-10, 06:04 PM

I went to a friend's place on Saturday night. He, his flatmate and I went to school together, so we've known each other 30 years.

Another friend came over, too.

One of them is a very skilled tech/programmer. We spoke about DRM, and Ubi's intended version for SH5.

I also showed them the "Das DRM" clips on YouTube (which they thought were hilarious).

Now the 4 of us would represent at least 120 years of accumulated boardgame, computer game and RPG experience. We all have Steam installed on our PCs/Laptops, so we're not against online authentication in itself.

We all think Ubi's DRM, without an off-line facility, is assinine for a single player game.

Maybe that's not exactly public, but I'm certainly happy to discuss it when the conversation suits. I have, for example, discussed it with some work colleagues; those who are technically minded and often gamers (both PC and console).

Their views? Ubisoft has lost the plot.

Méo

01-31-10, 06:07 PM

but the intrusion of big business into your personal life.:salute:

But they can't take personal data from your computer, there is international law(s) that protect private life.

Should they cross that line, they would suffer severe consequences.

shmall

01-31-10, 06:10 PM

I would talk about it to a fellow gamer/hobby follower, and have :)
I only talk about my hobby (simming and RC helicopters/planes) to other simmers and RC flyers.....

why the hell would I bother people that have NO interest in my hobby? thats whay we all talk about it on here...yes?

Simon

Nisgeis

01-31-10, 06:13 PM

But they can't take personal data from your computer, there is international law(s) that protect private life.

Should they cross that line, they would suffer severe consequences.

Oh come on, that's happened before where other companies have transferred data that they had no right to. Don't be so naive as to think that just because they shouldn't, they won't, or because it's not legal they won't. Just because they shouldn't doesn't mean they can't. Also, how about answering some of the previously posed questions in the thread, or are you going to cherry pick your responses in a Ubi-esque manner in this thread?

Méo

01-31-10, 06:15 PM

Maybe that's not exactly public, but I'm certainly happy to discuss it when the conversation suits. I have, for example, discussed it with some work colleagues; those who are technically minded and often gamers (both PC and console).

Their views? Ubisoft has lost the plot.

Yeah it's because your colleagues are technically minded.

What I meant is that there is a lot of people got more important problems (family problems, love problems, money problems, alcohol problems and so on...) and they would find it ludicrious that I worry so much for this DRM thing... you know!

ME$$ENGER

01-31-10, 06:19 PM

But they can't take personal data from your computer, there is international law(s) that protect private life.

Should they cross that line, they would suffer severe consequences.

Well, put it this way. Suppose you buy a car and the dealer installs a device on the car that connects to some server every single time you want to start the engine to prevent the car being started by thieves. It's not taking your personal data, either. Would you agree to it?

To me, I don't want a car that goes ET phone home every time I want to drive it. What if the party in question goes out of business? What if I'm in some remote corner of the world? What if it malfunctions? One result: I'm left stranded somewhere unable to start my damned car!

And in the above example, the device is actually meant to protect my property. In the case of DRM, what does it protect? I know it does nothing good for those that pay.

Méo

01-31-10, 06:19 PM

Don't be so naive as to think that just because they shouldn't, they won't, or because it's not legal they won't.

Naive, Hmmm... people here are pretty quick on class action, don't you remember. ;)

Méo

01-31-10, 06:23 PM

Also, how about answering some of the previously posed questions in the thread, or are you going to cherry pick your responses in a Ubi-esque manner in this thread?

Patience!

let me have the time to use the google translation, the urban dictionary, the thefreedictionary.com

Now what is your questions exactly? :x ...:)

Steeltrap

01-31-10, 06:26 PM

What I meant is that there is a lot of people got more important problems (family problems, love problems, money problems, alcohol problems and so on...) and they would find it ludicrious that I worry so much for this DRM thing... you know!

What makes you assume they are a mutually exclusive set i.e. technically minded people can't have these issues as well, and if they do they can't speak of anything but those?

I have a great friend dying of cancer. They might have a year or two if they're lucky (they've had surgery and radio/chemotherapies already), and the last few months won't feel like luck at all. Does that mean I/she should curl up in a ball and not discuss anything else?

That's bizarre.....

Nisgeis

01-31-10, 06:28 PM

What I meant is that there is a lot of people got more important problems (family problems, love problems, money problems, alcohol problems and so on...) and they would find it ludicrious that I worry so much for this DRM thing... you know!

You know, rather than posting to COMPLAIN about all the people who are complaining about DRM, you should, according to your own motivation, be posting to say how glad you are that no one had any serious troubles, that were worse than DRM. Although, can't people have a serious personal problem AND an issue with DRM at the same time? Us humans are complex you know. I've never been a fan of the old 'Well at least you aren't <INSERT AFFLICATION OR CATASTROPHE HERE> argument for saying something isn't important. I mean, I could just say to you that if you weren't happy that people were complaining about DRM, you could instead of posting complaints about it, you could instead just consider how lucky you were to not be a blind deaf dumb giraffe named Sebastian, who was moments away from execution for a crime that you did not commit in a country where there was no possible chance of commuting your sentence to life. Becasue that would suck worse. You know it would. I mean I know you aren't a deaf dumb and blind giraffe, but you know... just imagine if you were. So think yourself lucky and don't complain about people complaining as if they have nothing worse to complain about, because that's good Sebastian!

Naive, Hmmm... people here are pretty quick on class action, don't you remember. ;)

No, I don't, refresh my memory please Sebastian?

Brag

01-31-10, 06:28 PM

I have alcohol problems, family problems, social problems, financial problems, internal problems and some more. I prefer discussing game problems to forget my listed above problems :D

Steeltrap

01-31-10, 06:31 PM

I have alcohol problems, family problems, social problems, financial problems, internal problems and some more. I prefer discussing game problems to forget my listed above problems :D

That's pretty much what I was getting at, just not with the humour....

ME$$ENGER

01-31-10, 06:31 PM

Maybe we should just stick to talking about our personal issues here and put our complaints in PS lest some people think we have nothing better to do.

PS: DRM sucks.

Méo

01-31-10, 06:32 PM

Well, put it this way. Suppose you buy a car and the dealer installs a device on the car that connects to some server every single time you want to start the engine to prevent the car being started by thieves. It's not taking your personal data, either. Would you agree to it?

Dude, driving a car and be able to reach certain places (your home, the hospital, etc.) is LOT MORE important than playing a game, of course it would be unacceptable, the consequences could be much more dramatic!

ME$$ENGER

01-31-10, 06:35 PM

Dude, driving a car and be able to reach certain places (your home, the hospital, etc.) is LOT MORE important than playing a game, of course it would be unacceptable, the consequences could be much more dramatic!

Point is not if playing games is more important than driving a car. Point is it's a bad design. Agreed?

HundertzehnGustav

01-31-10, 06:45 PM

...i have not had sex for 2 months now...:cry:
have not had a GF for an entire year...

But i love DRM.

cause DRM.... SUCKS!

:rotfl2:

Steeltrap

01-31-10, 06:48 PM

...i have not had sex for 2 months now...:cry:
have not had a GF for an entire year...

But i love DRM.

cause DRM.... SUCKS!

:rotfl2:

Post of the week!! :rock:

Méo

01-31-10, 06:49 PM

@Messenger

Of course I Agree!

What I'm trying to say is that all the DRM drama seems to take too much magnitude, IMO. Espacially when someone link this with his personal life by saying ''these dark times''.

Dark times for simulation or game

But not dark times in my personal life!

Méo

01-31-10, 06:51 PM

...i have not had sex for 2 months now...:cry:
have not had a GF for an entire year...

But i love DRM.

cause DRM.... SUCKS!

:rotfl2:

:har:

HundertzehnGustav

01-31-10, 06:53 PM

Meo... what about "dark times for the entire Gaming industry" or
"dark times for honest customers"

what about "dark times for privacy"?
what about "big brother is watching you"?

These are issues not directly connected to Digital Rights Management, yet they are important in a technologically advanced civilization... because the subject is vast and universal in our "small" world.

Nisgeis

01-31-10, 06:56 PM

What I'm trying to say is that all the DRM drama seems to take too much magnitude, IMO. Espacially when someone link this with his personal life by saying ''these dark times''.

I think you are ever so slightly too fixated on this 'someone'. The 'DRM relates to my personal mental health' theme is not something that I have seen on subsim and I don't believe it is a cause for concern. I don't think we need to worry about this any more.

Those who defend DRM vehemently don't seem to realise that they are just as vitriolic as the critics. Still, let's all move on, eh?

ME$$ENGER

01-31-10, 06:56 PM

I think I speak for everyone in saying that discussing about DRM does not imply we don't have a life. And like HundertzehnGustav said, it's in every way a very relevant topic and has broad implications outside of the gaming industry.

martes86

01-31-10, 06:57 PM

I only talk about airsoft or gaming with people that have the same hobbies as me. I wouldn't dare talk about it with my average pal, as they'd probably fall asleep or leave on the excuse they have stuff to do, unless, of course, the issue comes up in a conversation in which I can bring it up. Otherwise, nope, we just talk about the weather, football (soccer in the US), work, girls, and porn. :har:

theluckyone17

01-31-10, 07:06 PM

I talked to my wife about it... showed her the Das DRM videos. She understood, and understood why I'm upset at OSP.

I talked to a coworker, who didn't get it at first... then he went "Dude, so it's like spending $50 on a game, then having them say you can't play it? I'd be *PISSED*."

I have no problem speaking in public about it. Granted, there's bigger worries in the world today, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't mention it.

Paajtor

01-31-10, 07:09 PM

I like to look at it this way: if this DRM means part of my purchase is kept on their servers, then I bought that HD-space.
Makes me a shareholder. :O:

So...power to the people!
That's an interesting subject amongst friends.

artao

01-31-10, 07:15 PM

I have talked about it, in public, to several non-gamer friends, and once I explained what was going on they agreed that it was ridiculous. I've also posted about it on my facebook page, pretty public I'd say. Yes, right now this is a games issue, but it could set precedent (if it flies) for other software to do the same. It's kinda part of the movement towards cloud-computing. Hey, it's fine for some folks, that's cool. Not for me. A lot of people will just accept it without knowing the implications, and I feel that if I can educate some folks on that, s'all'good. :O: :arrgh!: It may not be 'dark times' as such, but it is a potentially important issue.

Méo

01-31-10, 07:19 PM

Meo... what about "dark times for the entire Gaming industry"

Yep, precisely. :-?

what about "dark times for privacy"?
what about "big brother is watching you"?

But that is still to be proved.

Paajtor

01-31-10, 07:22 PM

the movement towards cloud-computing.
....
A lot of people will just accept it without knowing the implications.
I know what u mean about cloud-computing...it looks like a logical consequence, in the not-to-distant future.
But to make that work for everyone, we need to fight poverty.
Plus that the rules of privacy may have to be rewritten.

Rosencrantz

01-31-10, 07:23 PM

I was just thinking, why this sudden flow of clearly hostile "Get-a-Life" messages to my mobil from friends and even from Mom... But I think I might be getting slowly on the map again...

-RC-

HundertzehnGustav

01-31-10, 07:28 PM

same here.
i need to find a remedy for my earlier post, top of the page.

but as a geek/nerd, that is a difficult task...:cry::cry::cry:

Eightbit

01-31-10, 07:35 PM

of course I would. People need to know what they are getting with things. Drm is a pretty big deal when your buying a product. Especially when you get slammed with no options for returning the product etc.

As for drama well I hate to beat on the suicide issue but really. Someone is always worse off and has experienced worse. Its not a competition and some things may seem trivial now but that doesn't mean they should be expelled from criticism or other discussion.

Méo

01-31-10, 07:49 PM

I was just thinking, why this sudden flow of clearly hostile "Get-a-Life" messages

To everyone:

Don't get me wrong this wasn't a ''Get-a-Life'' message thread.

What I really meant is that, if some talk with their entourage about DRM with the same level of anger and exasperation than they talk about it here, then maybe it's gonna be what people around them will think: Get a life! :hmmm:

Méo

01-31-10, 07:54 PM

same here.
i need to find a remedy for my earlier post, top of the page.

but as a geek/nerd, that is a difficult task...:cry::cry::cry:

Don't worry, you're not the only one! :03:

But when a girl hurts you so badly, it's kinda of hard to be back on our feet. :-?

Bubblehead1980

01-31-10, 08:42 PM

hmm well no one I know in real life plays SH so only on here.

However, if I was back in college in my Economics classes etc and this discussion would fit, I would bring up it up in general terms, would spark a great discussion.I do recall discussions related in some ways to the current DRM debacle.

Sure you can blow this off as a silly squabble over the game but if you look deep, you see its about freedom of choice when it comes to a product one spends their money on and the ability to use it as he sees fit and a company's greed because piracy argument is a cop out, something to think about.

ryanglavin

01-31-10, 08:57 PM

Lets just hope when they knock off DRM they don't go back to starforce

*shudders*

Frederf

01-31-10, 09:54 PM

All in all Starforce was pretty mild. It was offline, no marketing gathering data, all game data was local. It was just some anti-piracy software that wasn't written the best and got a little too deep in the local machine.

Girlfriend thinks this stuff is pretty boring but can see my point. I don't think she sees why it's important to get upset about it. I am sad to use Nazis as a reference but it is like the saying "First they came for the communists, then my neighbors, and I did not speak out..." I see people break $100 software CD and go and buy a replacement without knowing about things like "replacement media" and "separation of media and license." People usually are like sheep and will accept a lot, mostly because they don't know.

When the boat is going slowly to a waterfall it is you that looks crazy panicking. "Sit down you are rocking the boat, crazy person."

GoldenRivet

01-31-10, 10:02 PM

I did in fact talk about the DRM/OSP to my wife the other day at dinner.

I explained the situation to her.

she expressed that her opinion was "If you buy the game it seems that you should be able to use it any time you want... no matter what your internet connection's status might be."

she is a smart girl

Méo

01-31-10, 10:22 PM

People usually are like sheep and will accept a lot, mostly because they don't know.

They don't know what exactly?

When the boat is going slowly to a waterfall it is you that looks crazy panicking. "Sit down you are rocking the boat, crazy person."

With such example, could you say that Chesley Sullenberger (the pilot who successfully landed his plane on the Hudson river) should have panicked instead of staying calm?

Steeltrap

01-31-10, 10:42 PM

Frederf

02-01-10, 12:59 AM

They don't know what exactly?

With such example, could you say that Chesley Sullenberger (the pilot who successfully landed his plane on the Hudson river) should have panicked instead of staying calm?

They don't know things like "Your cell phone and cell phone service can be separate products" which can lead to poor customer choices.

Of course not since that was a case of staying calm while doing the right thing. Many people are ignorant or complacent with wrongdoing by firms in terms of customer rights which means unhelpful inaction when some level of action would be prudent.

conus00

02-01-10, 02:44 AM

Who dares wins.

:rock:

S.A.S. FTW!

But to answer THE question: Yes, I would. As a matter of fact I have raised the question of DRM in SH5 with my girlfriend... Alas she is more interested in other "games". :haha:
So I think I will play along... :yeah:

Seriously: I would love to have a word with people responsible for the marketing decisions. I would ask them one simple question: "How did you manage to f**k up so bad such a promising franchise?"

JScones

02-01-10, 04:04 AM

Interesting question.

For me, the subject hasn't come up outside of this forum. But if it did, I'd talk freely about it.

bigboywooly

02-01-10, 11:59 AM

Discussed it at work today as it happens
Quite a few " casual " gamers there some who play SH3/4

All decided they wouldnt be buying SH5 due to the online connection needed
So the casual gaming market isnt interested either - well the ones I know
:rotfl2:

HundertzehnGustav

02-01-10, 02:31 PM

brought up the issue with the other IT students.

the end of the discussion was:

cloud computing for the win. But Games???:o

Iranon

02-01-10, 02:47 PM

I would rant about things like this to my friends if I had any (hmm, maybe that is a reason why I don't).
Are there worse things? Yes. Disease, hunger, violence, not having had a girl in years, war, processed cheese... the list is endless.

However, I think it's indicative of the atittude in public/corporate life changing for the worse. An ever-increasing prevalence of dodgy practices (Restrictive licenses when you think you bought something. Attempts to trick you into subscriptions you don't in fact want. An appaling lack of respect for your privacy, by both businesses and governments. Hidden attempts to cut costs while charging full price by craftsmen. Etc, etc.) undermines the atmosphere of trust and professionalism that's required to make a market society work well.

I feel ever more inclined to satisfy more of my needs via bartering, open software, homegrown/made stuff... and I'm an economist.

Iron Budokan

02-01-10, 02:55 PM

Actually, I may blog about it later this week on LJ. Especially now that I've had time to look at the RPG elements of the game.

Oh. Yes. I'll have lots to say about that. :har:

Rosencrantz

02-01-10, 07:58 PM

To everyone:

Don't get me wrong this wasn't a ''Get-a-Life'' message thread.

What I really meant is that, if some talk with their entourage about DRM with the same level of anger and exasperation than they talk about it here, then maybe it's gonna be what people around them will think: Get a life! :hmmm:

Well, I was just joking... really. :O:

-RC-

Ducimus

02-01-10, 08:07 PM

[B]Seriously, would you dare to speak about DRM (and how much it's a drama for you) in plublic, I mean... with your girlfriend, your friends, your teammate at work, your family, etc.

Yeah, id say something like.

"Hey man, wanna hear some bull? Games by this Publisher made it so you have to be online to play a f*king single player game, and it won't work without a constant internet connection. Like it's an MMO or some such crap. I'll bet they start charging monthy fee's next."

Thats exactly what id say in real life. It's not far fetched.

JU_88

02-01-10, 08:58 PM

No
number 1, most would tell me to get a life :haha:.
number 2 DRM is not that big a drama for me anyway.

Highbury

02-01-10, 10:23 PM

All of my friends, and my wife, are gamers. Some of them fans of the SH series. I have talked about this sitting in a group with them...

Méo

02-01-10, 10:50 PM

All of my friends, and my wife, are gamers. Some of them fans of the SH series.

Lucky, among all people I know (friends, cousins, teammate at work, etc.) none of them are interested in simulations, except maybe one, but he's a doctor, he's way too busy.

FIREWALL

02-01-10, 11:19 PM

The only person I talk gameing with hasn't "bought" software in over 2 years.

Ducimus

02-01-10, 11:36 PM

The only person I talk gameing with hasn't "bought" software in over 2 years.

You just reminded me of something.

DRM will probably turn out like starforce did for SH3. Someone, somewhere, will come up with a crack for the DRM and post it on the internet. Most everyone here on subsim will be using it, nobody will be talking about it, some may talk about it in hushed tones in PM or private messageboards, but the mere mention of it in public will get you brig time.

Then, 4 years later, for whatever reason, it will go public and be deemed "OK" to use.

FIREWALL

02-01-10, 11:39 PM

You just reminded me of something.

DRM will probably turn out like starforce did for SH3. Someone, somewhere, will come up with a crack for the DRM and post it on the internet. Most everyone here on subsim will be using it, nobody will be talking about it, some may talk about it in hushed tones in PM or private messageboards, but the mere mention of it in public will get you brig time.

Then, 4 years later, for whatever reason, it will go public and be deemed "OK" to use.

Like the no cd crack for SH3 ?

Reece

02-02-10, 12:05 AM

JScones

02-02-10, 02:08 AM

Ships-R-Us

02-02-10, 02:29 AM