View Full Version : What will become of the Silent Hunter Series?
hocking
01-31-10, 02:36 AM
I fear we are nearing the end here as far as Silent Hunter is concerned. At this point, I believe that UBI has locked the series between a rock and a hard place. Here is my predictions:
1) The game will not interest casual or FPS gamers like they are wanting it to. Those people will not buy this game no matter how you dumb it down. Furthermore, by providing one sub to use for the entire game goes completely against this strategy. It is laughable. Imagine a FPS with one weapon to use through the entire game. Just laughable is all I can say here.
2) UBI has completely turned away the hard-core Silent Hunter fans by their stupic DRM decision, and there desire to dumb the game down in an effort to attract the people mentioned in number 1. Most of us will wait for the greatest mods to come out, but these mods will be very very very slow in coming since so many of us are not into the series. This could be upwards of 1 1/2 to 2 years after release at the earliest.
3) The game will end up being the most highly pirated game from the series due to the DRM decision. I am not condoning this at all, but this is the way it works. The more you try to prevent pirates from pirating your software, the more your software gets pirated. SH5 will be the most pirated version of the Silent Hunter series without a doubt. You maximize your revenue by just pricing your game at $40 to $50 and deal with it. When you load your game up with DRM junk, people don't buy it, pirates pirate it just for the challenge, and then the people who wouldn't buy it before get a pirated copy just because they are mad at you. They rationalize their stealing very quickly and easily because they feel like they were being wronged by the publisher who was inflicting them with DRM junk even though they paid for the game. You turn non-pirates into pirates very quickly when you do stuff like this. Again, I am not condoning this at all, but this is how it works. Why don't publishers get this.
Put all those three points together, and you have a game that takes in less revenue than any of the other four games in the series before it. This usually spells "DOOM" for the series. Just like my other simulator, "Flight Simulator", I feel like I am about to lose another one of my favorite simulations on the PC.
1) I play FPS games too, so I must be stupid. This whole "they've dumbed the game down" argument is getting so annoying. We haven't even seen what the game plays like on high realism. Making a COD style FPS is not their "strategy", where are you getting this from?
One sub is fine if it's all polished and done well. There's no reason why the devs can not make a good, realistic sim, with only one sub-type. There's plenty of sims with only one craft, even dumbed down ones:
Realistic:
Falcon
DCS Black Shark
Dumbed down:
F-22 Lightning
F-22 Raptor
The Commanche series
F-16
Mig-29
Armored Fist
2) Again, you have no evidence for the game being "dumbed down". Not sure what your point is in this one. You go into DRM in 3). Not sure if you're right about the mods being slow to come. If the dev tools come out as promised, I bet you'll see the opposite happening.
3) This is a warranted fear. If the DRM gets cracked SH5 may be pirated more than the other titles. I agree with you on this point.
This may be the case, but maybe it won't. This is just speculation at this point. Maybe all the negative hype is all just a lot of hot air, and when it comes down to it, the new DRM will do no worse than starforce did for SH3.
Fact is that SH5 will come out with Ubi's new DRM, and there are no signs that this will change at such short notice. For Ubi's sake, and for the sake of the SH series, I hope it works.
Ps: There's no way SH5 will be as successful as DOOM :O:
mookiemookie
01-31-10, 03:20 AM
Hard to fault what you're saying, but what I would offer is this:
1) It never has.
2) We say this every time a new SH game comes out. However, this is supposed to be the most moddable yet. And while many of the old modders have said that the DRM has scared them off, I think that either a) Ubi will drop this scam in the not too distant future once they realize it's not working, or b) the game will turn out better than expected in terms of a modding platform and people will begrudgingly buy it to satisfy their curiosity/modding itch. Either way, I think we'll see a lot of great mods for this game.
3) I don't doubt it. But then again, that goes for most every game that Ubi is planning on releasing under this dumb idea. And that will only contribute to Ubi's decision to drop this idea. Which I guarantee WILL happen within the next 12 months.
Sales = Outcome
Simple as that.
Mind you, since Ubi are tightening their purse strings, Id expect them to concentrate on more profitable projects for the time being.
Id expect them to concentrate on more profitable projects for the time being.
Excellent point!
And I would add ''less controversial projects too''
I always see comments like: ''We, the customers, have the power to demand a game without this'' or ''the customer is always right'' and blablabla...
The problem is that ''We'' are MAYBE no longer enough potential buyers and/or we are too capricious ...at the end they have the power to simply reorient their business choices (i.e. put an end to the series).
I'm afraid we might not be so ''powerful''.
Onkel Neal
01-31-10, 11:27 AM
Excellent point!
And I would add ''less controversial projects too''
I always see comments like: ''We, the customers, have the power to demand a game without this'' or ''the customer is always right'' and blablabla...
The problem is that ''We'' are MAYBE no longer enough potential buyers and/or we are too capricious ...at the end they have the power to simply reorient their business choices (i.e. put an end to the series).
I'm afraid we might not be so ''powerful''.
If I were going to bet, I would say you are right. There are not enough sales to justify the expense of a comprehensive, historically accurate, realistic simulation. And some of us are way too anal about every detail.
My prediction: if SH5 comes out in good condition, it will sell comparable to SH3. That may allow for SH6 somewhere in the future.
If SH5 is buggy and broke, then the negative reaction will kill sales and there will be no more Silent Hunters for a long time, if ever. People don't want to buy an unfinished game, and it's hard to trust Ubisoft to support the game with patches, after all the trouble it took to get the final SH4 patch from them.
mookiemookie
01-31-10, 11:37 AM
If I were going to bet, I would say you are right. There are not enough sales to justify the expense of a comprehensive, historically accurate, realistic simulation. And some of us are way too anal about every detail.
Let's say Ubi drops the SH franchise. Still holds the rights, trademarks, etc, but says "that's it, no more." What do you think are the chances of another publisher putting out a U-boat sim? Some small boutique firm that's big into simulation/war games? Without Ubi as a competitor, I would think it would open the playing field, so to speak.
kptn_kaiserhof
01-31-10, 11:48 AM
i highly agree to that
Onkel Neal
01-31-10, 11:49 AM
Possibly. There's nothing to stop Empire Total War publisher Sega or Sub Command EA or any major publisher from investing in a subsim...but I think we would end up with another Battlefield Midway type game.
Or, as you said, a boutique developer, but then it would probably be Russians and you would have another Jutland, Shells of Fury, or PT Boats. I really doubt many people here would be satisfied with a U-boat sim made to that level of detail and quality. The Romanians have spoiled us badly, and like most spoiled children, we don't realize it (not using "children" as an insult, count me in that category too).
I like your line of thinking, Mookie. With the field open, who knows? Ideally, our favorite rock star/subsim dev/super realism historical nut we know and love as...wait, I'm not going to say his name, let me just say D. Dimitresceu...no, Dan D.... and Ioan, Christian, Mihai and the other guys... say they moved on in their careers to work for other companies, then I would be optimistic. But if they stay with Ubi and Ubi kills SH, I'm not to sunny about it.
If I look at the big picture, they were making subsims as soon as the home computer was available, and they'll probably be making them long after I'm dead. Some company, somewhere...
I'm not too worried. The only problem is that there might be a long, long gap between titles.
If we has an IL2 of the subsim world we would all be ecstatic.
1C know how to do things.
I doubt Ubi has the capability of dealing with the present fiasco. It will probably take months for them to come to the collective conclusion that they've screwed up big time. By then, their total sales will have dropped and the company need outside rescue.
@ Mookie & Neal
Very interesting points here. :hmmm:
Community like world of warcraft are undoubtly a LOT more power than us.
If I can make the comparison: we, in Québec, are a tiny minority in North America. I feel like we, the PC Uboat simulation hardcore fans, are a tiny minority in the whole gaming industry.
I would be surprised if another publisher would rush to offer us a great game of our likings.
That doesn't mean we should accept everything, just to show some level of tolerance (it's a bit weird to say that, I don't consider myself as being the most tolerable person :-?).
Like I said Meo, don't worry about subsims. One will be out sooner or later from somebody. Already another U-boat sim is in the works, Danger from the Deep.
Like I said Meo, don't worry about subsims. One will be out sooner or later from somebody. Already another U-boat sim is in the works, Danger from the Deep.
is in the works, are you sure?
Wikipedia says the release date of Danger from the Deep was october 12 2006...
If it would be great, seems to me like there should have a forum here about it? :hmmm:
I made a quick search but didn't find any Danger from the Deep 2 under work.
is in the works, are you sure?
Wikipedia says the release date of Danger from the Deep was october 12 2006...
If it would be great, seems to me like there should have a forum here about it? :hmmm:
I made a quick search but didn't find any Danger from the Deep 2 under work.
The forum here would be in the 'indie' (independent) section. But yes, they're working on it, you can even download a beta version. Who knows when it will be ready though... But I guess my point was that there is not only Ubi for subsims.
JScones
02-01-10, 02:45 AM
Meh.
There were subsims before the SH series, there'll be subsims after...
No-one or nothing is indispensable - one leaves, one takes its place...
Thanks to the actions of publishers and goods/service providers in general, the days of blind loyalty, at least for me, are long gone. It's all transaction based now.
No big deal - I'm happy with SH3. And I'll be happy with Naughty Bear and Fable III which will both take SH5's place on my bookshelf, at least until some "issues" that I have are addressed.
Onkel Neal
02-01-10, 09:28 AM
Like I said Meo, don't worry about subsims. One will be out sooner or later from somebody. Already another U-boat sim is in the works, Danger from the Deep.
Sure, there will be other sub games, but I'm willing to bet we won't see anything as good as SH3 or SH4 for ten years. Remember the days when simulations were very common? That was the late '90s.
When was the last really good tanksim?
Or helosim? (Blackshark?)
When was the last good battleship simulation?
:hmmm: And before anyone answers, be sure to check what people are saying about this or that sim that you think is "good" ;)
Sure, there will be other sub games, but I'm willing to bet we won't see anything as good as SH3 or SH4 for ten years. <snip>
Absolutely. That is, unfortunately, possible. Like I mentioned the 'only' problem might be long gaps between titles. But you know, for me, I would rather one good subsim every 10 years (Aces, SH3) than a bunch of mediocre ones pushed out every 3.
But yeah, I guess it would suck to play the next good subsim when we're in our late 80's. But I'd show those young whipper snatchers how it's done, by golly!
TDK1044
02-01-10, 10:00 AM
Silent Hunter V feels to me more and more like a game that will try and be all things to all people and end up pleasing nobody.
As for the future; I think all games will be server driven with the emphasis on eye candy.
<snip>
As for the future; I think all games will be server driven with the emphasis on eye candy.
That is one sick, twisted, dystopian future you're painting there. Scary...
Iron Budokan
02-01-10, 10:29 AM
What will happen to the series? I'd say one of four choices:
1. It will be a huge hit and sell millions of copies like SH3.
2. It will rapidly reach crush depth soon after release and disappear.
3. It will do just well enough to limp along -- a sort of steady state.
4. It will be somewhere in between the first three choices, or an amalgam of two or more. Or not.
But no matter what happens, whether the game succeeds or tanks or whatever, SOME company somewhere will eventually make another submarine simulation. Why? Because they're not stupid. They will look back on SH3 and say, "Hey, those guys made a killing off that game. Maybe we can to, if we do it right."
Unlike some simmers I am not at all pessimistic that if we "don't support UBI" we will never see another sub sim again. There's money to be made in them thar hills, or ocean depths, if you will. Some company, somewhere, will go after it.
So chillax, people. :|\\
SteamWake
02-01-10, 10:41 AM
Somehow this thread reminds me of Dynamix :oops:
The Romanians have spoiled us badly, and like most spoiled children, we don't realize it (not using "children" as an insult, count me in that category too).
So very, very true :nope:
People forget that despite Silent Hunters flaws (& DRM), the chance of there being a future subim which surpasses its quality - is very VERY slim.
Sailor Steve
02-01-10, 03:26 PM
If we has an IL2 of the subsim world we would all be ecstatic.
1C know how to do things.
Is that the one that has never had a dynamic campaign?
Is that the one that has never had a dynamic campaign?
No..Il2 has a inbuilt dynamic campaign system and the flexibility to
allow modders to write programs that interface with IL2 and act as
custom campaign generators.
It's good that way.
Sailor Steve
02-01-10, 03:34 PM
No..Il2 has a inbuilt dynamic campaign system and the flexibility to
allow modders to write programs that interface with IL2 and act as
custom campaign generators.
It's good that way.
Oh, okay. I thought I had read in the past people complaining about that. Thanks for straightening it out.:sunny:
HundertzehnGustav
02-01-10, 03:38 PM
Is that the one that has never had a dynamic campaign?
hold on, the CFS3 Dynamic Campaign was SOOOOOO much better!:D
Il-2 has semi dynamic campaign, and there is always DCG, developped to our days standards. PLUS the hundreds of offline campaigns available...
Thousands of Racetracks, tens of thousands od Simple missions...
Il2 did, in the end, not lack much, campaign wise.
And let's not forget the online dynamic campaigns!
Now they rock.
Ducimus
02-01-10, 06:55 PM
>>What will become of the Silent Hunter Series?
Probably nothing.
Kapitanleutnant
02-01-10, 07:03 PM
What will become of the Silent Hunter Series?
Cancelled, hopefully. Time to let some other dev have a crack at subsims.
Task Force
02-01-10, 07:09 PM
Ya know, sadly, after 5. I think the sh series should stop...
Its called overdoing... abit like movies... 1st is pretty good, but if they drag it on too long, just goes to hell...
Ducimus
02-01-10, 07:33 PM
Time to let some other dev have a crack at subsims.
Who?
Ya know, sadly, after 5. I think the sh series should stop...
Its called overdoing... abit like movies... 1st is pretty good, but if they drag it on too long, just goes to hell...
Yea it would s*** to have a bunch of people take SH5 and Mod it into the best damn sub sim ever made.
Kapitanleutnant
02-01-10, 07:40 PM
Who?
Square-Enix for all I care. They couldn't make a worse job of it than Ubisoft.
If Ubi does not get rid of the DRMS of doom. Ubi is doomed.
All you need to do is look at what is going on in the forum. Massive protest.
Two individuals. yes , all of two post supporting DRM/OSP.
Pathetic, don't you think?
Task Force
02-01-10, 07:51 PM
hmm, and thats only subsim. lol
Rosencrantz
02-01-10, 07:53 PM
What will become of the Silent Hunter Series?
Who cares? They say, the world will end in 2012. And after seing latest update from UBI, I'm starting to believe it.
-RC-
DMB3428
02-01-10, 07:56 PM
some of these responses are depressing! Unfortunately Im hoping the gaming industry in general doesnt go the way of the "WII"... as in seeing the profit in dumbed down casual games...Im a sim junkie(fsx-lomac-sh4-dcs blackshark etc) and it worries me with the cost of developing these games that sims will be shelved in favor of more guitar hero crap....:down:
KL-alfman
02-01-10, 07:58 PM
What will become of the Silent Hunter Series?
Who cares? They say, the world will end in 2012. And after seing latest update from UBI, I'm starting to believe it.
-RC-
don't take it too serious.
in the end it's just something you've wanted to get in the beginning to enjoy it totally. didn't happen. at 15y I experienced the same with my first girl-friend.
so it can get only better. :hmmm: :haha:
If Ubi does not get rid of the DRMS of doom. Ubi is doomed.
All you need to do is look at what is going on in the forum. Massive protest.
Two individuals. yes , all of two post supporting DRM/OSP.
Pathetic, don't you think?
Crap. I just played another 2 hrs straight of ROF. Why wont this game cut out? I'm so PISSED AT THIS GAME, it keeps working.
Pathetic, don't you think?
@Meo --- yes, Danger From the Deep IS under active development, albeit slowly perhaps. I was just on their (developers) IRC channel yesterday (#dangerdeep at freenode) and they were there, discussing this and that, and directed me where to download the current alpha, and to ignore the 0.3.0.0 version ... of course, I couldn't get it to run, and they said it was probably due to my older vid card (ATI Radeon X700) ... if we were to encourage them a bit more, perhaps it would get somewhere faster. Heck, I'd be willing to pay them for their efforts if it turns out as good as it looks/sounds. They're talking about actual control of ballast valves and suchnot, wow!! Hopefully dive planes and dive angle as well ... we'll see.
Kapitanleutnant
02-01-10, 08:12 PM
Crap. I just played another 2 hrs straight of ROF. Why wont this game cut out? I'm so PISSED AT THIS GAME, it keeps working.
Pathetic, don't you think?
Since I'm not allowed to call people retarded anymore I'm going to subtly suggest that you presenting a personal anecdote as any sort of evidence is indicative of developmental disability, possibly stemming from blunt trauma to the skull at an early age.
Rosencrantz
02-01-10, 08:13 PM
DMB3428 wrote:
some of these responses are depressing!
Surprised?
:03:
KL-alfmann wrote:
don't take it too serious.
Nope, I won't. As you said, it can only get better.
-RC-
There were subsims before the SH series, there'll be subsims after...
No-one or nothing is indispensable - one leaves, one takes its place
Hmm, I'm not that sure. :hmmm:
My ''theory'' (this is only a ''theory'', I don't claim to have a certainty on these things)
is that the gaming market is largely influenced by our modern way of life.
i.e. Today everything has to be quick. Quick dinner, quick training, quick entertaining... and so on.
So deep simulations with an important learning curve are no longer attractive (except for a minority, in which I am included).
Although I'm not sure, I think Ubisoft understood that and this is what Dan met when he said in the interview (the video interview) that you don't have to read 10 books on German U-boat to play the game.
I'm afraid we will have to rely on the modding community to get those games a much more deeper content.
Since I'm not allowed to call people retarded anymore I'm going to subtly suggest that you presenting a personal anecdote as any sort of evidence is indicative of developmental disability, possibly stemming from blunt trauma to the skull at an early age.
Not to stomp on the thread to much, I agree that my response was of a nature of stupidity, but I think I was responding at an equal level.
This may sound black, but my intent is more on the hopeful side .... I hypothesize that the Power of Ubi perhaps scares other developers off of developing another subsim to compete with them. If Ubi were to drop SH, perhaps, as others have mentioned, it would open up the field again. Remember, the SH series wasn't always Ubi's baby. :03: The sim field needs a new Microprose or SSI or Jane's. Sure, in-depth, historically accurate sims aren't all that popular these days, and they never really were the 'big-sellers' that action-oriented games have been .... If a smaller upstart developer were to get into the field, albeit with smaller budget, but at the same time lower operating costs, I suspect they could do rather well. :yeah:
theluckyone17
02-01-10, 08:22 PM
Since I'm not allowed to call people retarded anymore I'm going to subtly suggest that you presenting a personal anecdote as any sort of evidence is indicative of developmental disability, possibly stemming from blunt trauma to the skull at an early age.
Well spoken :cool:. Not that I'm agreeing with personal attack, mind you, but that's a really verbose way of putting it.
Anyway, some of us with reasonably reliable 'net connections still object to OSP on the grounds that: our 'net access is still not 100% reliable; we can't control the uptime of Ubisoft's servers and have been bitten before by promises of reliable service; object to the need of having constant internet connectivity for a single player simulator/game; object to the privacy issues; worry about what Ubisoft might do now or in the future with a constant connection; refuse to purchase software that we cannot resell; and object due to the general principle behind OSP.
So thank you, longam, for pointing out that your experience tonight with RoF was fine. When the rest of our complaints regarding OSP (which you obviously have no issue with, judging from your purchase of RoF), we'll consider purchasing SH5. That's assuming the rest of us don't take issue with the stock career ending in '43, only the VII class being modeled, and the creative license taken with the crew's characterizations.
Kapitanleutnant
02-01-10, 08:24 PM
Ask yourself this - would a war orphan from Darfur be able to play SH5?
The answer is no, therefore Ubisoft Romania are racists and everybody should boycott this game until African orphans can play without a net connection.
@Meo --- yes, Danger From the Deep IS under active development, albeit slowly perhaps. I was just on their (developers) IRC channel yesterday (#dangerdeep at freenode) and they were there, discussing this and that, and directed me where to download the current alpha, and to ignore the 0.3.0.0 version ... of course, I couldn't get it to run, and they said it was probably due to my older vid card (ATI Radeon X700) ... if we were to encourage them a bit more, perhaps it would get somewhere faster. Heck, I'd be willing to pay them for their efforts if it turns out as good as it looks/sounds. They're talking about actual control of ballast valves and suchnot, wow!! Hopefully dive planes and dive angle as well ... we'll see.
Danger from the deep deserves, at least, our interest :DL
Its all overkill, drama, what ever you want to call it. I'll buy the game and so shall you when the time is right for you to do so.
Then we shall have a new topic ranging from 'left sleeve button wrong' to 'XO doesnt stand at attention' debates.
Can't wait to check this game out. :salute:
KL-alfman
02-01-10, 08:45 PM
Danger From the Deep
these people got my sympathie.
I intend to visit them within the next days.
Danger From the Deep looks, to me, like our next, best hope ... :yeah:
V.C. Sniper
02-01-10, 11:25 PM
^ maybe we should invest in it
Danger From the Deep looks, to me, like our next, best hope ... :yeah:I just checked this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU1aM_SmoSM
Is this from the old or next version, not familiar with this game, will have to do some research!:yep:
THE_MASK
02-01-10, 11:51 PM
I just checked this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU1aM_SmoSM
Is this from the old or next version, not familiar with this game, will have to do some research!:yep:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=75759
Maybe danger from the deep should have its own forum on subsim ?
Weather-guesser
02-02-10, 12:25 AM
I'm holding my official opinion until after release, but I'm more worried after the meet the crew section of the official website. :timeout:
@sober Danger From the Deep has it's own thread in the Indie Subsims forum, prolly all it needs for now, considering the development status .... but we should certainly be encouraging them. The devs have an IRC channel, as well, #dangerdeep on freenode.
JScones
02-02-10, 03:18 AM
Sure, there will be other sub games, but I'm willing to bet we won't see anything as good as SH3 or SH4 for ten years.
And that includes SH5. :har:
And that includes SH5. :har:Oh you are naughty, but I like it!!:yep:
Clyde00
02-03-10, 05:56 AM
After seeing UBI's strategy and goals for the Splinter Cell series, the Far Cry series, the Rainbow 6 series, etc... I forsee the downfall of the Silent Hunter series.
UBI seems to be mainly catering to "console style" gamers for the quick $$ and steady sales. This has caused several of their long standing series titles to become straight-up console ports with little or no modability. Limited or repetitive gamestyle,etc..
At least SH5 isn't a FPS and the hope that modders can get their hands on most of the uncrypted files to mod keeps my hope up. They are incorporating some of the ideas from these boards and others so this is a good thing.
From personal experience with UBI's past tiltles and their tech support, if this game don't sell big, I expect to see one or two patches and then on to the next project. Hype sells games, especially to simmers and modders such as ourselves that don't have alot of sub type sims to pick and choose from.
Anyway my 2cents, hope I'm wrong.....
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