Would the DRM (& etc.) be more palatable if SH5 was a MMO?

[difool2]

Because that's how MMOs work; you must be online all the time, the game will hang if the connection goes wonky (on either end), and you must save your game on the server, natch.

Not saying that SH5 will be a MMO in any way, shape, or form, because I doubt that any such change of direction could be pulled off with a mere month to go before release, but my anger and annoyance would pretty much vanish if this was in fact the case, as real human-run wolfpacks would become the big thing. The issues surrounding time compression are well known here (it basically would turn subs into "warp"-capable vessels), but just throwing that out there to be chewed on a bit...

[trenken]

Well we already know the game isnt an MMO right now, but what the system would allow them to do is add modes after the game is released, dont even need to release an expansion pack. Maybe an open world mode where we can hunt together, or one teams plays the allies, the other team axis. I think that would be very cool.

The system would already be in place to allow them to seemlessly add modes like that, such as an MMO mode, which would really extend the life of the game. Instead of getting another sequel in 2 years, we get more modes, you can even update the games graphics through DRM for those that want to upgrade, but you can decline it if you want as well. Ive seen a few games do this.

And Ubi has said the game will still be modable, so maybe people could develop their own modes. There's a lot of possibilities there. I think it's a lot better than it was where the mods were very limited in what could be done with the game, in the sense that you couldnt add new modes that would allow other players to interact with each other in an open world online.

Gotta look at the bright side of things, it really does open a new world to SH.

[HundertzehnGustav]

You cannot turn a Simulator into a MMO, what kind of a WONKY idea is that?

Maaaaaaan, you want to boe playing online only? i mean, no modded campaigns? The Campaign is done by UBI and we are just "running" it? Where is the fun in that?

Before i just start crying, go ahead and eplain yourself.
It seems to me that you did not put enough thought into your idea.
Think of how that could be done, be realistic, be moddable, and be stable.

then come back and submit again - i might possibly listen to such a proposal.
But at the moment, i wont.

AH! one more thing.
Make it so i can run it on a 10kB/s connection.

[HundertzehnGustav]

and trenken...

No, you can not MOD a game and have dozens of players play it at the same time. Its not possible.

Online only= no mods.

and no, for what its worth, i do NOT wish to start something like a Subsim-WoW.
What happens to my boat while i am at work?

[Webster]

You cannot turn a Simulator into a MMO, what kind of a WONKY idea is that?

Maaaaaaan, you want to boe playing online only? i mean, no modded campaigns? The Campaign is done by UBI and we are just "running" it? Where is the fun in that?

Before i just start crying, go ahead and eplain yourself.
It seems to me that you did not put enough thought into your idea.
Think of how that could be done, be realistic, be moddable, and be stable.

then come back and submit again - i might possibly listen to such a proposal.
But at the moment, i wont.

AH! one more thing.
Make it so i can run it on a 10kB/s connection.

everyone has a right to their opinions and its not nice to tell someone to take their idea and go home just because you dont like it :nope:

please dont let your unhappiness over DRM cause you to be rude to others with opinions you dont like.

[trenken]

and trenken...

No, you can not MOD a game and have dozens of players play it at the same time. Its not possible.

Online only= no mods.

and no, for what its worth, i do NOT wish to start something like a Subsim-WoW.
What happens to my boat while i am at work?

You dont play a lot of games do you? In CoD1, which is like almost 10 years old, players were creating new multiplayer modes that you can join. Completely new modes. This has been done for many years, back into the 90s.

[HundertzehnGustav]

hey Webster... i didnt say he should go home with it, but i asked him to put up a proper concept. Go back to his study and bring on the GOOD idea.

I see what he wants. he wants SHV, and does not care if there is OSP or not...

but his idea, that one, still needs a LOT of work.

then come back and submit again - i might possibly listen to such a proposal.

I am a stupid farmer, and still recognise that with such a basic layout, he aint gonna get very far.

Admittedly, i have high expectations for SHV.

but "shut up, your idea is scheisse, go home play Lego"... i was not saying such a type of thing, really


i wasnt, or, was i?

*scratches head*

[trenken]

everyone has a right to their opinions and its not nice to tell someone to take their idea and go home just because you dont like it :nope:

please dont let your unhappiness over DRM cause you to be rude to others with opinions you dont like.

Dont worry, im getting used to it around here. These guys are so pissy about something they dont know much about, and if someone with some experience with DRM games tells them what he's seen people do with it, they just get mad at you. It's really mature.

[Sgtmonkeynads]

What if there ARE wolfpacks and this is the only way to make them work?

Cool thought....

[trenken]

What if there ARE wolfpacks and this is the only way to make them work?
Each of us is actually controling a sub in another persons game?
Cool thought....

Might be a new concept to the guys here, but ive seen games add modes like this, but the game has to be all online, and what a coincidence, so is SH5.

[Letum]

Time. compression.

[Sgtmonkeynads]

Right ! Soooo...in the long run this may be ( can't believe I'm saying this)

a good thing ?

[HundertzehnGustav]

You dont play a lot of games do you? In CoD1, which is like almost 10 years old, players were creating new multiplayer modes that you can join. Completely new modes. This has been done for many years, back into the 90s.

naah this type of game is not for me. back in the day i tried the medal of honor series, but running around with a gun in my hand is not for me. never went back.

i think more of the rproblems encountered in other Flight simulations.
CoD is a FPS, SHV a Simulator.
And i take it the idea discussed in here will leave SHV to still be a simulator in permanent online mode.

and to be a simulator, we all have the same mods installed, otherwise it will get ridiculous, and split the small SHV community. (Il-2 1946 and the mods, and the Mod packages come toi mind)

With that in mind, i still have montain high doubts that a Simulator, in wich a big team must be controlled by one player (warships, Bombers, Submarines, Tanks...) can be an "online only MMORPG Style Simulator and still be moddable"

[trenken]

Right ! Soooo...in the long run this may be ( can't believe I'm saying this)

a good thing ?

You never know. Feels good to have something to hope for right instead of complaining about everything, doesnt it?

[HundertzehnGustav]

Time. compression.


ROFL!
yea i see us online every evening, chatting about the boring gameplay, where is the action in the atlantic? We would be sending more messages between boats than see ships!

That would make it a Subsim communications online simulator.
Oh wait, for that i already have skype, dont i?

very good point!

[trenken]

naah this type of game is not for me. back in the day i tried the medal of honor series, but running around with a gun in my hand is not for me. never went back.

i think more of the rproblems encountered in other Flight simulations.
CoD is a FPS, SHV a Simulator.
And i take it the idea discussed in here will leave SHV to still be a simulator in permanent online mode.

and to be a simulator, we all have the same mods installed, otherwise it will get ridiculous, and split the small SHV community. (Il-2 1946 and the mods, and the Mod packages come toi mind)

With that in mind, i still have montain high doubts that a Simulator, in wich a big team must be controlled by one player (warships, Bombers, Submarines, Tanks...) can be an "online only MMORPG Style Simulator and still be moddable"

Noone is talking about this replacing the single player mode. Thats entirely seperate. The game would always remain a sim, even if some sort of team wolfpack mode or whatever was added. The only problem I see is the time compression thing.

But I already thought about this. When you log in to play an MMO style wolfpack match, you all would be assigned to a limited area of the map.

[HundertzehnGustav]

You never know. Feels good to have something to hope for right instead of complaining about everything, doesnt it?

Feels even better to haul arse and try to get what you expect you were getting in the first place.
Even if it takes some broken bones.

Submarine
Simulations.

[HundertzehnGustav]

Noone is talking about this replacing the single player mode. Thats entirely seperate. The game would always remain a sim, even if some sort of team wolfpack mode or whatever was added. The only problem I see is the time compression thing.

But I already thought about this. When you log in to play an MMO style wolfpack match, you all would be assigned to a limited area of the map.


for that we already have single missions...
no? dont we?
never done the online thing...

[trenken]

for that we already have single missions...
no? dont we?
never done the online thing...

Of course you would have single player missions still, thats entirely seperate, im talking about a NEW mode, a new menu option to choose. You go in, you see a wolfpack room on the server with some guys already in it, you log in, drop into the zone, meet up with them, talk on mic to work on strategies, it could be very cool.

Had the game not been online like it is now, none of this would work. Im not even saying this will end up happening, im just saying its possibility now.

[Letum]

...that's more or less what we have had since SH2.

[trenken]

...that's more or less what we have had since SH2.

Yeah but im talking about the possibility of a consistent world, something that is running all the time.

There are u-boats out there on patrol, they are real people. You put to sea, maybe meet up with some of them and hunt, or maybe just talk on the mic a bit and never meet them. Who knows. It's possible now though.

Maybe one of those guys out there gets damaged and put out a distress call, you go to help them, and thats a real guy you're helping out there.

[HundertzehnGustav]

so you want only offline missions, or online campaigns.


what about 90 percent of the submarine work - the patrol in itself?
The port? the boat upgrades as war continues?

Look, i for one am a campaign buff, except for Il-201946, where Dogfights were all i did.

You proposal is to make SH*X* so that a "campaingn" will be fought in quick online battles against convoys, results stored on a server run by ubi, and war progress (Maps with convoy encounters, successes, losses, personel files, stats and such) will be presented to you on a Ubi website to wich you log on with your Ubi account?

Come on, develop your thoughts! draw it out in front of me, i am trying to understand what it would be like on my screen...

[ETR3(SS)]

Because that's how MMOs work; you must be online all the time, the game will hang if the connection goes wonky (on either end), and you must save your game on the server, natch.

Not saying that SH5 will be a MMO in any way, shape, or form, because I doubt that any such change of direction could be pulled off with a mere month to go before release, but my anger and annoyance would pretty much vanish if this was in fact the case, as real human-run wolfpacks would become the big thing. The issues surrounding time compression are well known here (it basically would turn subs into "warp"-capable vessels), but just throwing that out there to be chewed on a bit...Well that's the thing with an MMO and DRM. An MMO's DRM is the account key that comes with the purchase. I could take my copy of WoW and install it on every computer in town, but nobody would be able to play without an account key. Being constantly connected to the MMOs server is a product of the game, not a deterrent to piracy. I'm willing to bet that when you get your copy of SH5 there will be an account key in there for the game, otherwise this isn't really stopping piracy of the game at all. And as someone pointed out earlier, and I have myself, you can't make a simulation an MMO without losing the spirit of what a simulation is. At least at this time.

[trenken]

so you want only offline missions, or online campaigns.


what about 90 percent of the submarine work - the patrol in itself?
The port? the boat upgrades as war continues?

Look, i for one am a campaign buff, except for Il-201946, where Dogfights were all i did.

You proposal is to make SH*X* so that a "campaingn" will be fought in quick online battles against convoys, results stored on a server run by ubi, and war progress (Maps with convoy encounters, successes, losses, personel files, stats and such) will be presented to you on a Ubi website to wich you log on with your Ubi account?

Come on, develop your thoughts! draw it out in front of me, i am trying to understand what it would be like on my screen...

Yeah I dont think you're getting the idea that this is a seperate mode, not at all related or connected to your single player campaign. I dont know how to explain it any other way, but if you dont have experience with games like this then I dont expect you to get it, just have to try it out I guess.

[Letum]

:rolleyes:

[trenken]

Well that's the thing with an MMO and DRM. An MMO's DRM is the account key that comes with the purchase. I could take my copy of WoW and install it on every computer in town, but nobody would be able to play without an account key. Being constantly connected to the MMOs server is a product of the game, not a deterrent to piracy. I'm willing to bet that when you get your copy of SH5 there will be an account key in there for the game, otherwise this isn't really stopping piracy of the game at all. And as someone pointed out earlier, and I have myself, you can't make a simulation an MMO without losing the apirit of what a simulation is. At least at this time.

Seperate mode man. When you fire the game up, maybe you see 2 options now, single player campaign, and online. Under online could be a server listing of different types of games.

Maybe one is just team wolfpack missions, maybe another is the consistent world mode. Now that the game is all online and centers around the server, that is what is opening up the possibilities of what can be done.

[HundertzehnGustav]

First screen/ loading game
second screen/ single mission or participate in the online war.
third screen/ choose server :


server one - you have no account
server 2 - you have an account,

with 500 renown (like SHIIIrenown)
Type VII/B,

deck gun, single AA gun, steam torps
noob crew


Server Time: Oct 1940
Base/ Wilhelmshaven


server 3 - you have an account,

with 750 renown (like SHIIIrenown)
Type IX/C,

deck gun, single two double AA guns and a Quad , steam torps and homing torps mix
experienced crew


Server Time: Jan 1943
Base/ Brest



fourth screen/ Choose patrol grid
fifth screen: loading map... Once upon a time...
fifth screen: 3D, in the ocean, crappy weather, chat window open to contact other submarines





something like that?

[ETR3(SS)]

I understand what your getting at. I have quite the repertoire of games, both online and offline. Correct me if I'm wrong but your talking like in BF2 they have the single player offline mode and the online multiplayer mode that tracks stats and so forth.

[Sgtmonkeynads]

Ehhh...instead of this DRM crap why not just give us a usb card that has to be plugged into a port inorder to play. Make it uncopyable and in shape of a Knights Cross, so when not in use it looks like a real one.

[Letum]

Either it's the same as SHII/III/IV or there are time compression issues.

Neither way, however, requires an internet connection for the single palyer mode. No DRM needed.

[Letum]

Ehhh...instead of this DRM crap why not just give us a usb card that has to be plugged into a port inorder to play. Make it uncopyable and in shape of a Knights Cross, so when not in use it looks like a real one.


Yup. There are commercial systems like this already available for Ubi.

[Thomen]

Well we already know the game isnt an MMO right now, but what the system would allow them to do is add modes after the game is released, dont even need to release an expansion pack. Maybe an open world mode where we can hunt together, or one teams plays the allies, the other team axis. I think that would be very cool.

The system would already be in place to allow them to seemlessly add modes like that, such as an MMO mode, which would really extend the life of the game. Instead of getting another sequel in 2 years, we get more modes, you can even update the games graphics through DRM for those that want to upgrade, but you can decline it if you want as well. Ive seen a few games do this.

And Ubi has said the game will still be modable, so maybe people could develop their own modes. There's a lot of possibilities there. I think it's a lot better than it was where the mods were very limited in what could be done with the game, in the sense that you couldnt add new modes that would allow other players to interact with each other in an open world online.

Gotta look at the bright side of things, it really does open a new world to SH.

SH5 will be, from what we told so far, mainly a single player game with a co-op mode. Everything else, as far add-ons, publisher/dev made mods and so on goes is pure speculation. However, I think a system like that would not be un-welcome, if it is optional.


According to the Devs, this time around they will provide better and more tools for modding, therefore making it easier to produce community made mods. The implementation of said mods, however may be a different question until it is known what exactly the OSP does and what files are checked and what modders are actually allowed to do without screwing the program up or getting hit with a hammer by Ubi.

With that said, if they would offer a Silent Hunter MMO (feasibility and playability ignored), I would buy it in an instance.. Hell I would buy two and double box it.

However, in the current state we wont play an SH MMO, but a single player game that is chained to a server.

Another point that comes up with the services you envisioned is the bandwidth requirements for the optional content, downloads or patches.

Besides the ones that have no or just irregular internet, there are still masses of people that either have slow throughput, or have a monthly transfer limit. I do not know if you are aware of it, but even Comcast planned to put a max transfer volume on their cable internet earlier last year.
(To be fair, I am not sure anymore of they still have that limit. I sincerly hope they got rid of it or even the idea.)

Other then that, good post. :salute:

[Platapus]

Ehhh...instead of this DRM crap why not just give us a usb card that has to be plugged into a port inorder to play. Make it uncopyable and in shape of a Knights Cross, so when not in use it looks like a real one.


Back when I was playing WoW, I had this security fob synchronized with the Blizzard servers. I had to enter this number once I logged in. Since the number changed every minute, it was pretty secure.

So there are ways to secure authentication for Sh5 without the need for a constant connection

[Sgtmonkeynads]

Time Compression in a multi player game could work!
It would be just like ships in a squad of x-wing fighters jumping to hyper-drive at the same time, but under each ships control.
You could be the leader of the pack and announce that you are jumping, you take off, the rest of us then have the choice of staying in our regular time or jumping with you. If we choose to stay, we keep going at our own pace and watch seagulls. Mean time you run into a convoy and instantly come out of T.C. as normal as soon as a ship is spotted. We then have to race to the scene as in real life, while you shadow. We can use T.C. as long as you are not spotted by the convoy while we do it.

If none of that made sense just think of how a fleet of star destroyers would act, it'd be the same thing.

[Sgtmonkeynads]

[QUOTE=Platapus;1252981]Back when I was playing WoW, I had this security fob synchronized with the Blizzard servers.

Thats where I got the idea. Now imagine it in a nice wood box like the one in the game. But how to get it implemented?

[d@rk51d3]

Hell Yeah.

My vote goes to the dongle. :rock:

[difool2]

You cannot turn a Simulator into a MMO, what kind of a WONKY idea is that?

Maaaaaaan, you want to boe playing online only? i mean, no modded campaigns? The Campaign is done by UBI and we are just "running" it? Where is the fun in that?

Before i just start crying, go ahead and eplain yourself.
It seems to me that you did not put enough thought into your idea.
Think of how that could be done, be realistic, be moddable, and be stable.

then come back and submit again - i might possibly listen to such a proposal.
But at the moment, i wont.

AH! one more thing.
Make it so i can run it on a 10kB/s connection.

You assume that I am in favor of such an idea (I remain skeptical just because the gameplay in such a situation likely would be radically different than it currently is in SH3/4-i.e. more arcadey & instant action-ish)-reread my title again. Don't shoot the messenger IOW-just wanted to like I said put this thought out there for discussion.

And, just in case you are unaware, there ARE several simulation-based MMOs (WW2OL to name one, also Warbirds & Aces High).

If a mod group could rent a server, they most certainly could run their own mod on it, painlessly. I do agree that community fragmentation would be an issue, but so far we've just had a few megamods in SH3/4 that we all play (GWX, TM, RFB). Just asking people to think outside the box for a moment.

[artao]

trenken, I would play the game you are talking about. However, that is NOT SH V, and including this draconian DRM does not 'open up the possibility' of the game you're talking about. There is absolutely no need to force us to be online at all times while playing a single-player game. If they wanted me to go online to activate the game, and even re-activate it periodically, and log-in to download patches and/or new content, that would be fine with me. This 'you must be online to play at all' idea is a load of crap tho, and will not fly with the sim community.
If my machine is online, I have my anti-virus software running, proabably a firewall, etc ... If I want to play a computationally intensive game, I want my entire machine's capabilities available to it, and thus generally go offline and shut down all my background 'net-safety apps. Being forced to be online at all times to play, by myself, opens security holes I'm sure Ubi hasn't even begun contemplating. Plus I'd have to leave all my net-safety apps running, taking up valuable memory and CPU power.
MMOs are online games, so of course you have to be online. A single-player sim is NOT an online game, and forcing me to BE online to play is just absurd.
This scheme does not open up the possibilities you talk about. What you are talking about is a completely different game, and that's fine and sounds fun. This scheme IS a kick-in-the-crotch to all of us legitimate users, since we ALL know there will be a cracked copy out within a month or so of release.
hmmmm...... not sure if this will get edited out or get me thrown in the brig, but I wonder about the legality/morality of paying for the game, then running the cracked copy instead :hmmm:

[Platapus]

[QUOTE]

Thats where I got the idea. Now imagine it in a nice wood box like the one in the game. But how to get it implemented?

It got implemented when several hundred thousand accounts got hacked at the same time. Blizzard charged $6.00 which pretty much covered shipping and handling.

That, I see is the future of video game authentication. I could go to any computer with WoW installed and play my game.

I typed in my user name and password. I was then taken to another authentication page where I activated my fob and entered the number. The server, which was synced to my fob by account name, matched the number and I was authenticated.

For SH5, it could be handled via a 15 second connection.

Could this be circumvented? Of course. The objective is to make it so hard/expensive to circumvent that it would not be worth it to the hacker.

If a game costs $50 but it would cost me the equivalent of $60 to hack in to each instance, why would I do it?

DRM is just like an lock/alarm system on your house. It won't deter the highly experienced "professional" burglar, but it will take care of the "amateur" burglars.

[mookiemookie]

An ocean full of people doing 1x patrols. Go for days and days between seeing contacts. Heck, go for weeks in some cases without seeing a contact.

Yeah. they'd sell a million of SH the MMO. :roll:

[Mikhayl]

An ocean full of people doing 1x patrols. Go for days and days between seeing contacts. Heck, go for weeks in some cases without seeing a contact.

Yeah. they'd sell a million of SH the MMO. :roll:

Totally, I say bring it on. I can't wait to see the face of my boss when I tell him "ok, I'm taking 1 month off to play my shakedown patrol" :yawn:

[Sgtmonkeynads]

Each pack would be in its own game. I think it could work, if done right.

But the real issue is...I don't want to have to be connected to play a single player game !