Just received this [Archive] - SUBSIM Radio Room Forums

John W. Hamm

01-30-10, 02:40 AM

Apparently Dude is an offensive word in Romania, but that is neither here nor there. For the sake of privacy I will not release which Dev it is, I have have also omitted some parts that may help to identify them. I am just actually shocked he took the time to write me back.

Originally Posted by John W. Hamm
Dude you can make it have all the bells and whistles you want, but if I can't play it when i want to (internet goes down, or no access to it for what ever reason) and play it with out you having access to my computer in ANY MANNER...I will not buy the game. I canceled my pre-order and will not buy it until the a offline version is made. You need to check the sub sim forums 83% have stated they will not buy this game!! Now this is a niche game and those people in that niche are all here! So your sells are going to suck and it will not be because people don't want the game!
So who cares that you can play on 10,000 computers or my games are saved on your servers or the game is fantastic....if you can't get online to play...First of all, sir, there's nothing in this world that gives you the right to call me "Dude". You don't know me at all, so as with all the people, show me that initial respect.

Just so you know, I perfectly understand everyone's frustration about this "always-online thing" with the privacy concerns and technical possibility that the Internet may be down (even that it only happened only once to me last year, and let's not forget that I live in a God forgotten country like Romania).

BUT, I also understand that for all the Ubisoft's PC games, the piracy rate is over 90%. That means that for every 100k copies sold, there are another 900k copies being played by people that are getting what they want by stealing it. And I see it happening all around me, even for the best of games, including Assassins' Creed, Modern Warfare 2, Mass Effect 2 etc. People that say "what a fabulous game, I will buy this one because is a masterpiece". But they never actually do it. And I'm stating it again, I see all the time with people I come in contact, to the fact that I'm getting sick and tired of it.

The decision that had to be made by the business guys was "do we cancel ALL PC games FOREVER and concentrate on everything else (consoles, casual, social)? No, let's be fair to the people and give them a chance to support the games that entertain them every day".

In the beginning, the dev team had the same feelings as you about the whole DRM design and implementation.

In the end, my personal opinion is that it had to be done. This is the world we're living in and these are the rules that we must obey.

Just to make things perfectly clear, I've been working on the Silent Hunter games since 2006. That's 4 years with so many weekends (both Saturdays and Sundays) spent at work that it affected my health, my family life and social life.

All the above are the facts.

My message to you and everyone on subsim would be as simple as this: "It's your choice whether you adapt to the chances in the gaming industry. But remember that the gaming industry will adapt to the behavior of people as a whole (because this is what pays for the food we eat)".

Please note that this is my personal opinion and in no way it reflects the official opinion of my employer.

Now, judging by that staggering 83% figure, that's me signing off and starting to learn ActionScript (Flash) for all the casual games I'll be working on from now on.Personally after reading this my feelings have not changed, maybe they should go ahead and go with consoles...after all if they continue to do this with all of their games they will alienate the p.c. market anyway....and they will go out of business

My message to you and everyone on subsim would be as simple as this: "It's your choice whether you adapt to the chances in the gaming industry. But remember that the gaming industry will adapt to the behavior of people as a whole (because this is what pays for the food we eat)".I know I'm not taking this as he meant it...but my feeling is; The game publishers will in fact adapt if you don't buy games that use DRM.

Sgtmonkeynads

01-30-10, 02:50 AM

That is sad...Romania has better internet than I do.

The Enigma

01-30-10, 03:03 AM

I have doubts about the figures UBI is claiming, but I cannot prove them to be right or wrong.

What I do know for sure is that each copy protection will be cracked sooner or later. Even console games are being cracked.

Also a fact, adding such DRM into software will move even more people towards using cracked versions of a game.

Maybe UBI and other publishers should reward people who buy a game, instead of making it nearly impossible to play the legal game (anywhere, anytime).

I'm afraid that I need to find a new game genre to enjoy, not developed/published by UBI.

Herr Kaleun, I'm afraid we have to abandon the sub.
That boat is sinking.

Boris

01-30-10, 03:20 AM

IF our mystery dev is right, and the DRM is the first EVER to work and stop piracy, then fine, I'll see the light and happily buy the game.

But when the game does get pirated, and I can't imagine it won't... it'll be like, "what the heck was that for"???
Then the paying crowd is heavily inconvenienced, and the very thing UBI tried to stop is still happening. So in the end people would be paying for a worse version of SH5, and the pirates would be getting the free offline version.

So if this revolutionary DRM fails (and it will as they always do), it will backfire big time, and Ubi's sales will plummet to never before seen lows.
If I were Ubi I'd really be ****ting my pants right now.

kiwi_2005

01-30-10, 03:44 AM

I also understand that for all the Ubisoft's PC games, the piracy rate is over 90%. That means that for every 100k copies sold, there are another 900k copies being played by people that are getting what they want by stealing it. And I see it happening all around me, even for the best of games, including Assassins' Creed, Modern Warfare 2, Mass Effect 2 etc. People that say "what a fabulous game, I will buy this one because is a masterpiece". But they never actually do it. And I'm stating it again, I see all the time with people I come in contact, to the fact that I'm getting sick and tired of it.

900k :o

My message to you and everyone on subsim would be as simple as this: "It's your choice whether you adapt to the chances in the gaming industry. But remember that the gaming industry will adapt to the behavior of people as a whole (because this is what pays for the food we eat)".

Right on.

Gotmilk

01-30-10, 04:21 AM

Developer has a good point there. I see no reason why they should not protect their product. It is not easy to make a game you know :)

And eventually it will be your choice. Either play with consoles or stay online with a DRM.

What is so bad about it? I seriously hope that thanks to DRM Ubi will make a ton of profit from SH5 and can use that money to carry on with the series. Make better SH6 and etc.

And yes, i have not got any internet connection problems at all. It is year 2010 and we have steady connections almost everywhere, i dont understand what is all the fuss about :woot:

We allow Microsoft to access our computer every day. So why not let Ubisoft do the same :)

John W. Hamm

01-30-10, 04:27 AM

Sonarman

01-30-10, 04:31 AM

I have some sympathy for Ubisoft's position, I recently visited two shops in the Game chain (the UK's largest game retailer) One in my town and the other in the city of Glasgow. I was shocked to see how few PC games were now in stock, only one small shelving unit on the floor with but a few budget and full price titles while the wallspace is now entirely devoted to the console market.

To me it looks like the console manufacturers (including Microsoft) and the retailers are now tyring to kill off the PC games market entirely. And it's easy to understand why, console games are easier to create, the PC is a support nightmare, and the profits/returns are much higher on console titles and piracy is now rampant on the PC platform a situation that will only worsen as broadband gets faster and faster.

I do believe that PC titles need some form of DRM/protection as the piracy levels are now extreme, however I think the new Ubisoft system is going a bit too far and may make the game too slow/ unplayable. Something like Storm Eagle's (Jutland) (originally much hated) connect once a week with no save game thing would be much more acceptable to gamers.

McBeck

01-30-10, 04:33 AM

I hardly think that because 100 people dont buy this game to play it, then it means they have lost the sale of 100 copies - thats really a stupid argument. Howevere, I still think that they have lost significant sales because of pirates...

I think that in all of this discussion we forgot to aim our frustrations at the PIRATES!
They are the root cause of this mess.

Now we CAN argue that DRM is a really bad thing, but we cant blame Ubisoft for trying to protect their investment.
Problem is that is has been proven again and again that the protection will be broken by somebody, so we dont trust DRM to be any different.

It seems like we just get caught in the middle og the battle between Ubisoft and pirates.

So, if any of you know pirates I suggest you go and have a go at them as well :arrgh!:

HundertzehnGustav

01-30-10, 04:34 AM

John W. Hamm

01-30-10, 04:42 AM

I think the choice of the DUDE word is a bit poor.
I would have done the same mistake, but, look, he is a stranger to you, you have never shaken hands, never drank a beer together, and never gone to school together.

Therefor a SIR, or MIster X would have been more appropriate.
It is also, not only showing personal respect, but also respects what he does.

And plus, i would never never ever ever go to someone , and ask him for something, and then call the man a Dde, or the Lady a "chick" or something.
Thats just not nice.

You have learned a lesson here i take it?

I suppose I have...for what it is worth...but i think he was more angry at the content and what it meant. I think it was just his way of firing back. But then again what do I know. None the less as I wrote back to him to explain where I am from it is not considered an insult or disrespectful. However it is also like many other words all in the inflection...and of course you can't hear how I'm typing it...so He hears it how he is reading it in conjunction with the problem being written about. Hind sight 20-20 I wish I would have started it differently.

Gotmilk

01-30-10, 04:44 AM

Oh just pick about any other thread that discusses the DRM issues and you will find about 20 or more very good reasons. Either you have not looked or you are choosing to turn a blind eye and remain willfully ignorant.

I am sorry. I just dont have time to read trough ALL those arguments about DRM. I am sure that "very good" 20 arguments will eventually boil down to 3 things. 1:People are whining because they feel that they have no freedom if they cant play this game offline (does not matter that most of their computers are anyway always online)
2: People are whining that the UBI service will affect their gameplay. (Server downtimes and etc.)
3: People are whining because they are not willing to let UBI have access in your computer. (But we allow MS services to do this every day whether we like it or not)

But who am i to say what is right and what is wrong. I am just a silly human who chooses to remain willfully ingorant. :rotfl2:

Boris

01-30-10, 04:46 AM

I think the choice of the DUDE word is a bit poor.
I would have done the same mistake, but, look, he is a stranger to you, you have never shaken hands, never drank a beer together, and never gone to school together.

Therefor a SIR, or MIster X would have been more appropriate.
It is also, not only showing personal respect, but also respects what he does.

And plus, i would never never ever ever go to someone , and ask him for something, and then call the man a Dde, or the Lady a "chick" or something.
Thats just not nice.

You have learned a lesson here i take it?

Dude, many native English speakers say "dude" all the time... to anyone. We Australians also tend to use "mate" a lot more, and we use it on everyone, even people we don't know.
It may be impolite to you, but it's friendly informality.

HundertzehnGustav

01-30-10, 04:51 AM

I suppose I have...for what it is worth...but i think he was more angry at the content and what it meant. I think it was just his way of firing back. But then again what do I know. None the less as I wrote back to him to explain where I am from it is not considered an insult or disrespectful. However it is also like many other words all in the inflection...and of course you can't hear how I'm typing it...so He hears it how he is reading it in conjunction with the problem being written about. Hind sight 20-20 I wish I would have started it differently.

This place is a Battlefield at the Moment, Torps and DCs being used like there was no tomorrow Starshells in the sky, and in the distance, two Tankers are burning.

You are mad, I am mad, he might also be mad... We are humans after all, and that is very good thing.

You and me are sitting in opne Boat, BUT you do not exactly know what kind of Boat he is sitting in.
Therefor, having a white flag with you when making contact is always a good idea.

:up:

Nisgeis

01-30-10, 04:52 AM

3: People are whining because they are not willing to let UBI have access in your computer. (But we allow MS services to do this every day whether we like it or not)

I don't let Microsoft have access to my computer every day, because I don't like it.

Hitman

01-30-10, 04:53 AM

for every 100k copies sold, there are another 900k copies being played by people that are getting what they want by stealing it

Might be so, but why does UBI think that those 900.000 guys would actually BUY the game if they couldn't play it?

In my opinion, most of them would simply altogether pass on it, and that's all. They don't have the money, or if they do, they rather spend it on something else. There are LOTs of people out there with emule downloading all day things like films and games they don't ever get to play at all.

If you consider the minority of those guys who were playing pirated games and now will buy it, and compare it with the number of guys who actually bought all games and now will stop doing it (Like me), that would give you an exact figure. And I guess the result wouldn't be nice either.

Last, UBI seems to forget that the public for sub simulators is quite different than the one playing Assassins' Creed, Modern Warfare 2, Mass Effect 2 etc.

OK, if that's the modern industry trend then very well, I'll stop playing new video games and just play the old ones, or simply pass altogether on that.

I am mature enough and have a personality that allows me to have thousands of different hobbies I enjoy the same or even more that playing games. I don't need the videogames at all.

dcb

01-30-10, 04:55 AM

As a fellow Romanian, I would kindly remind this unnamed dev a few facts of life that might shed a new light on the issues of DRM, piracy and the money earned from a game.

1. There's always the 'stick and carrot' policy, in this case the stick being the over-intrusive antipiracy methods (starforce in the past, online checks now) and the carrot being an intelligent way of promoting a product / a game. In history, it has been proven that carrot is always better than the stick - that's also why democracy won over dictatorship. In my personal view, instead of enacting a kind of DRM that alienates many, a gaming company should emphasize on the extra services and advantages of being the legal owner of the preferred game. There's many ways it could do this, from a competent support (really competent, I mean) to all kind of niceties the user could receive with the purchased game (badges, pens, even an online club he should be proud to belong to, meetings of game owners and fans etc.)

2. The game should be readily available everywhere it is in demand. As you must certainly be aware, except for developed countries, in the rest of the world most people do not have bank cards in Euros or USD, which prevents them buying a game on the internet. Here, in your home country, dear Ubi Romania, did you ever wonder how many Romanians hold a card in Euros? Moreover, given that games still address a teen or pre-teen market segment, how many of these youngsters do you think have the bank cards needed to purchase a game online?
Here, in its home country, the only option for buying the games made by Ubisoft Romania is online. I never saw them in their hard form (box, DVD, etc.) in any specialised store so far (actually, there's almost no specialised store, only supermarkets have dedicated areas for games). Even in the first weeks after SH3 and SH4 got launched, they were quasi-inexistant for the Romanian gaming market. No advertising, nothing at all that would have let Romanian gamers know that the "Sim of the Year" (as labeled by many magazines) had just reached the market.
If Ubi really wants to fight rampant piracy (yes, I am aware it exists), maybe it should "invite" people to buy its games, advertise them the smart way, and make them so readily available and desirable that every gamer feels the urge to buy them in their shiny box, rather than go illegal. Especially if these gamers really like what they play.

3. There's an old debate over how many pirates would really buy a particular game, if unavailable as illegal download. I will not open this can of worms, but only refer to the Silent Hunter series. Submarine simulations are a special breed. They are not your usual shooters, they are still mostly single-player (in a world of multiplayer), and they target a mature audience, with a higher level of conscience (related to piracy=theft) and more willing to support the producer of the games they prefer. So, I really doubt Subsims are pirated to such an extent. And - as far as I can say based on intuition alone - I don't see so many of (let's say) "casual pirates" saying something like: "Hooray, here it is, our latest sub game, let's donwload it en masse." It's rather "Huh, what's this Silent thing about? A submarine game? What on earth could this mean? Submarines are booooring. I'd rather play Call of Duty and shoot 10 people a minute."

4. Last, but not least, there's a "Big Brother" fear mounting everywhere in the world. People tend to grow over-suspicious at everything that intrudes their personal lives (and computers). Games are the last on a long list of such intrusions and this online DRM has come at the worst moment possible. Yes, game companies have the right to protect themselves against theft, but just the idea of the game "calling back home" goes against the "freedom" tradition that was imprinted upon the gaming community during the last two decades. As I said, sub simulations are mostly played by grown-ups, by people formed in the "democratic" spirit that characterized IT and internet since they were born. Maybe a teen can easily live with the idea of "ET phone home," but those used to live by some standards feel the market changes really hard and are not as willing to "re-educate" themselves.

Sorry for the long post, but I really felt i had to speak my mind.

And BTW, I would not call Assassins' Creed and Modern Warfare 2 "the best games." To me, they look rather arcadish and console.

HundertzehnGustav

01-30-10, 04:56 AM

Dude, many native English speakers say "dude" all the time... to anyone. We Australians also tend to use "mate" a lot more, and we use it on everyone, even people we don't know.
It may be impolite to you, but it's friendly informality.

It is not impolite to me... i VERY MUCH prefer being called "DUDE", or "Hey man", or just plain "Yo, Leon, take a look at this!"

People call me Mister, and Sir, when i am on the Job, and: Damn, DUDE - does that make me feel Uncomforteable!

But thats just what it is like, being in contact with people that do not know you - its tact. And it takes some time to overcome that distance.

But once you overcome that distance, I have found a few customers very to be quite cool, and even swapped Telephone nubers with one of them.
No. Not the Business Telephone numbers. It led to some really interesting events. (grins)

Still, Both sides need to approach each other with Mutual respect, both Feeling and Expressing it.

The Fun and beerdrinking comes later.

zulus

01-30-10, 05:07 AM

"do we cancel ALL PC games FOREVER and concentrate on everything else (consoles, casual, social)? No, let's be fair to the people and give them a chance to support the games that entertain them every day".What is hidding behind the: "support the game every day" Is actually that DRM gives UBI the power to control your account daily. And most probably you will be asked to "support your entertainment" by transfering money from your bank account for every update/patch/addon they're gonna release in future. RDM turns out to be a perfect tool of manipulation IMO. Under no circumstances I will ever agree with these kind of terms that are still hidden from public, nor I let myself to be fed with any speculations that DRM is good for you, future vision, or provides a must have services.

Rip

01-30-10, 05:27 AM

If they wanted to make us happy about having to be online all the time why not write some content that actually takes advantage of it. People have been bitching for good multiplayer for ages. So if you want to convince people being connected is better write something that takes advantage of it, instead of just saddling us with the negative aspects?

urfisch

01-30-10, 05:28 AM

"lets be fair to the people..." ???

i dont care about this poor statement. for me, go ahead and try your luck with console kids!!! then finally there will be smaller studios, who serve the market with pc-games. maybe this would be the better way, instead of big firms, who try to serve all niches and release a lot of half backed **** for pc.

KL-alfman

01-30-10, 05:41 AM

very good statement, dcb.
I doubt the figures of 90% pirated games. better said, if the publishers had such a close insight of the pirate's market, why hadn't they done nothing against?

Gatt

01-30-10, 05:45 AM

This dev should think about:

1) printing good and thick manuals like those we were used to
2) use an online activation like the one used by Battlefront
3) forgetting to cash in that wishful 90%. Wake up :nope:

Adriatico

01-30-10, 05:51 AM

"That means that for every 100k copies sold, there are another 900k copies being played by people that are getting what they want by stealing it."

***
Sounds like simplified model... i am sure that 70-80% out of these 900k just take it as it costs nothing, as you would try beer in a pub for 2$...
They would try it 2-3 days and forget it...

It is possible that some 20-30% out of 900k would buy original anyway.

This is not Call of Duty... and Ubi will lose more by DRM application... than they could gain "forced players".
***
DRM could be tried in a 3-4 years, when online service becomes standard "like TV remote control" and certainly on some "more commercial" titles...

With DEMO included!

John W. Hamm

01-30-10, 05:54 AM

But who am i to say what is right and what is wrong. I am just a silly human who chooses to remain willfully ingorant. :rotfl2:

You said it....:|\\

P.S. to dcb +1

Kapitan_Phillips

01-30-10, 06:08 AM

Here's a radical idea to curb the spread of software piracy -

Dont charge people one of their kidneys for one of your fricken games.

Uber Gruber

01-30-10, 06:17 AM

I'm with Hitman and Urfish on this so far.

It is well known that piracy figures are over-estimated in order to usher in more draconian DRM measures, much akin to the way Iraqi Weapons of Mass Destruction were....cough...over-estimated in order to usher in a little war.....sorry I mean a long drawn out badly planned and organised war. But I digress...

That said, I understand the need to combat software piracy....but at heart I know that game publishers are only interested in profit and are consequenytly killing the PC games market, as noticed by the shelf space in shops like Game. The book publishing industry has been heading down the same road for some time....so many great books go un-noticed cos they don't contain boys on broomsticks or whatever.

Fortunately, modern tech has led to the micro-publisher, with the internet providing delivery logistics. This micro-industry is on the verge of a huge boom.

In conclusion then, games publishers desire for ever increasing income (largely to pay for the chaff within - I doubt actual profit margins are any greater than 30 years ago) will see them migrate to the consoles, to be replaced by dedicated micro PC game developers and publishers. Heralding a new age in quality PC game development.

HURRAH FOR UBI!

Letum

01-30-10, 06:18 AM

He is right about the 'dude' thing.
As for the rest...well...

tonyj

01-30-10, 06:22 AM

even if the figures are 100,000 pirated copies against 100,000 sold thats a huge difference, let alone 900,000 copies.

Gotmilk

01-30-10, 06:23 AM

If you want the DRM to be removed then your only hope is that someone cracks that game. So the pirated players wont have to connect internet and legimate players do.

Then UBI will realize how pointless the DRM is.

Mikhayl

01-30-10, 06:25 AM

That sounds like a very poor way of doing business.

Nevermind that the 90% figure is doubtful, just think about this:

-You have 100.000k established customers.
-You have 900.000k non-customers, people who might not ever buy you anything but still a potential market.

option 1: piss on the back of your established customers in the hope that they will keep buying anyway AND that it will appeal to non-customers.

option 2: refine your product, add tangible bonuses, basically cuddle your existing customers to keep them AND appeal to non-customers.

I've worked in some shops, and shoplifting is pretty much accepted as a fact of life. Some light measures are taken, but shoplifting remains and will remain.
Even if the amount of money lost is sometimes staggering, and the difference with pirated digital content is that those losses are real for the shop.
We did take some actions to try to limit it, like the magnetic thingys and mirrors, but I have never seen a shop manager in his right mind adopt some anti-shoplifting measures that would have been detrimental to legit customers.

Now of course, the day people accept to be treated like potential thieves instead of potential buyers things might change.

bigboywooly

01-30-10, 06:26 AM

Well its obvious from the last line

Now, judging by that staggering 83% figure, that's me signing off and starting to learn ActionScript (Flash) for all the casual games I'll be working on from now on

That he feels with such a high % NOT buying then thats the end of the SH series - although I doubt they finish one then move straight on to the next anyway so they must do something inbetween - well you would hope so anyway

IF such a high figure has the devs worried then Ubi should be worried too
Rightly so
Tis only Ubis PC releases this year getting this OSP not console releases and I would guess they are a far bigger market than a PC sim
So why the PC games ?
Console games get cracked too and have been since day one

I think its far to say ALL of us can live with a one time net activation at install but not continual connection

Its a shame the dev feels that way and we have to feel the way we do about OSP but as Boris said the game will be cracked within days and us poor schmuks who buy the game will be the losers

I guess with only a month to go they will have to decide one way or other real soon

Personally I wouldnt mind waiting if release was delayed to remove the OSP
As most who have voted in the polls on here will be waiting till OSP removed anyway before they buy and that coulld be some time unless ubi gets its head out of the sand
And by that time the game will be in the bargain bin for a lot less than at release

Letum

01-30-10, 06:26 AM

...I have never seen a shop manager in his right mind adopt some anti-shoplifting measures that would have been detrimental to legit customers.

Now of course, the day people accept to be treated like potential thieves instead of potential buyers things might change.

Hear, hear!

MercurySeven

01-30-10, 06:28 AM

Hmmm, just think about what it would mean if that dev was actually right. If there were 9 illegal copies for every legal one and each of those 9 copies were replaced by a legal one and if this was du to the amazing AWESOME-DRM they are currently putting into place and that makes everybody happy and want more, more, MORE of this stuff they should make TONS of money. In fact, as they calculate current games in a way that they are profitable with the "90% loss to piracy" this would surely mean that I can then buy SH5 for 5 bucks at release. Oh what a wonderful world! :smug:

Brag

01-30-10, 06:32 AM

#1. Is an outstanding post. Will comment on the thread later today :salute:

tonyj

01-30-10, 06:34 AM

problem is, piracy is making pc games unviable. even though i voted against drm in the petition thread if the numbers are a quarter of what the dev is talking about you can't blame them from trying to make a profit from their games. ultimately if they can't find a way of pushing the number of sold units up then developers will start pulling out of pc games completely and then we won't have any sub games other than indie ones. i've already seen at my local 'game' store that the pc section is getting smaller and smaller each year - now i have trouble finding the pc games in there. so sadly i'd rather have drm than no pc games at all or a very limited selection. its bloody sad really.

TDK1044

01-30-10, 06:37 AM

Although anyone who is against online DRM is seen as being a luddite trying to hold back inevitable digital evolution, the reality is that for me anyway, this is a case of being treated fairly.

With both Silent hunter III and Silent HunterIV, I entered into a basic contract with Ubisoft. I paid them $49, and they gave me a game that I could load on my computer and play at my leisure.

With Silent hunter V, they have changed the terms of that contract. Now, I give them my $49, and they will give me a game that I cannot play at my leisure on my computer; I can only play it if I am connected to the internet and if the Ubi servers are up.

The terms of this contract are unacceptable to me so I choose not to purchase the game. If the future is playing games while being connected to the Publisher's servers, so be it. The Publisher should then put the entire game on their servers and not charge me $49 to buy it, but instead charge me either a 'pay as you use' fee each time I log onto the server, or a small monthly fee for unlimited access.

That way, I don't have a redundant drink coaster in a box filled with useless junk. :)

Mikhayl

01-30-10, 06:46 AM

Oh and, the veiled threat of large publishers leaving the PC market is bull****.

-as long as there's a decent profit to be made, they'll stay, even if piracy is 99%.
-if they leave anyway, small publishers will blossom again (imagine if Enigma: Rising Tide had been released in a world with no SH3 or SH4).
-if small publishers make a decent profit, large publishers will come back to the PC market to get the money.
-rinse and repeat.

JU_88

01-30-10, 07:15 AM

Letum

01-30-10, 07:18 AM

Brag

01-30-10, 07:20 AM

90% piracy is a grossly exagerated figure.

We know piracy is a major problem. However, Ubi is using the piracy problem to ramrod their OSP down our throats. Using a one time online authentication is acceptable.

What we are beginning to see now, is that our protest is having effect.

Like several people said on this thread, the best way of keeping customers is with honey, not draconian OSP junk. Loyalty is earned. By trying to force their buggy ODP, Ubi has lost loyalty BIG time.

Mystery Dev has done Ubi a great service by showing their concerns.
Where are the marketing & PR people who should be dialoging with us?Writing another diktat?

Just to remind them. Full time online is unacceptable!

msalama

01-30-10, 07:21 AM

If what our developer X says is true (i.e. 900000 copies pirated against 100000 sold), and the proposed antidotes (i.e. various DRM implementations) will continue to stay as intrusive as they are, then what we'll see in the not-too-distant future is the death of commercial PC game development. And you can thank pirates for this, _not_ UBI or game companies in general!

I mean, take our beloved writer Brag (and his publishers) for example. What would the said fine gentleman do, if I went out and sold unlicensed copies of his books for $1 apiece? UBI's position is in no way different, so they'll of course try and stop a bunch of a**holes copying their games as well - a standpoint I can personally understand completely.

But what will happen in general if no-one invents better DRM methods? Well then we PC gamers are just f**ked plain and simple, because our (per se rightful) refusal of buying games with intrusive and / or plain bad copy protection and / or copyright enforcement mechanisms will just force the companies to abandon PC games altogether, and concentrate on console development instead. So the future's not looking very bright at all I'm afraid, regardless of whether you guys decide to buy SH5 or not :-?

But hey, at least DftD is still being developed... :03:

HundertzehnGustav

01-30-10, 07:25 AM

yep.... go open source...

John W. Hamm

01-30-10, 07:27 AM

Mate, if you received this via PM, i think you should have kept it to yourself.
IMO Posting PMs on the forum is not very cool, that message was intended for you - not for everyone.
Its called a 'private message' for a reason.

MMmmm Yes and no, had I disclosed who it was I could see your point, but I don't think (unless he lives with his head in the sand) he would really think it wouldn't be posted...Maybe I'm just nuts for thinking this but like he said "You don't know me" and I don't know him...So anything he is saying to me he can be saying to anyone...because he has no idea who he is talking to. I'm just some guy who got a hold of his address and it isn't like he said anything in confidence to me...again how do you say something in confidence when you have never even talked to this person before online or otherwise...I do not and will not even come close to feeling guilty for posting this...there is no way that he could consider a reasonable expectation of privacy in this situation....period. There is no question that he knew it would be put out.

JU_88

01-30-10, 07:28 AM

MMmmm Yes and no, had I disclosed who it was I could see your point, but I don't think (unless he lives with his head in the sand) he would really think it wouldn't be posted...Maybe I'm just nuts for thinking this but like he said "You don't know me" and I don't know him...So anything he is saying to me he can be saying to anyone...because he has no idea who he is talking to. I'm just some guy so got a hold of his address (for all he knows he could be writing to his wife who is playing a trick on him in the next room) and it isn't like he said anything in confidence to me...again how do you say something in confidence when you have never even talked to this person before online or otherwise...I do not and will not even come close to feeling guilty for posting this...there is no way that he could consider a reasonable expectation of privacy in this situation....period.

And further more you can assume if you would like that it is PM ...but again to give any information could betray the source. The reason it is formatted the way it is, is only because I used the tools on this forum to edit and set it up for posting. Not because it came from here.

Never mind trying to second-guess his expectations, what about your consideration for his privacy? that is what Im not seeing here.

Anyway Mate -The bottom line is this, the devs will almost certainly stop responding to PMs if we go around posting them publicly. :dead:
hell even I will stop responding to PM's if there is no respect for system.

Adriatico

01-30-10, 07:30 AM

You might think that 90% is exagerated figure... but it is not.

It might be astonishing if you look from London, Boston or Hamburg... but in "less organised" countries it is not surprising...

But the point is - only small portion of these "players" would buy original game anyway... Most of them try all the games for day or two, as it costs nothing...
With DRM you can loose 70-80% of present market... and gain some 20% new players...
:yep:

tonyj

01-30-10, 07:31 AM

HundertzehnGustav

01-30-10, 07:32 AM

there is no way that he could consider a reasonable expectation of privacy in this situation....period.

there you shot yerself in the foot.

You HAVE to respect the privacy. Just like you expect them to respect yours DRM and all.

The Enigma

01-30-10, 07:36 AM

Are console games the future?
First: Console games are also being 'modded' by pirates.
Second: More and more console games need an internet connection too.:cry:

John W. Hamm

01-30-10, 07:36 AM

there you shot yerself in the foot.

You HAVE to respect the privacy. Just like you expect them to respect yours DRM and all.

Umm no I disagree there too. If you do something in plain public view you have no reasonable expectation of privacy. And I will not use DRM, if I did I would not have a reasonable expectation of privacy.

theluckyone17

01-30-10, 07:38 AM

But hey, at least DftD is still being developed... :03:
I rarely see this mentioned, and it's something to remember. People seem to forget that a computer is a general purpose tool, and we can create content for it ourselves.

Yes, DftD is a huge undertaking. But look at the modding community here, and the huge undertaking it's been to create some of the super mods. Get enough people together with enough interest and talent, and they might just be able to pull DftD off.

Look at the state of Linux & Windows, for example. Building an O/S is complex, but it's been done and freely distributed.

I've said it before, I'll say it again: If Ubisoft persists with OSP and I find it onerous, I will not purchase SH5. I will not spend my time with SH3 (I hate that fatigue model, I really do...). I will spend my time working on DftD, doing all that I can do to make it better. Seein' as it's GPL/CC licensed and freely distributed, I'd love to see what Ubisoft will do to compete with it in the future. I can only see it chasing them out of the subsim market, or force them to concentrate on quality and content.

TDK1044

01-30-10, 07:39 AM

It's a bit like 'off the record'. Unless you get permission in the PM to include all or part of the PM in a public forum, it should remain private.

Mikhayl

01-30-10, 07:40 AM

@mikhayl, so why's my local 'game' store pc section getting smaller and smaller then? or is 'steam' and similar platforms stealing their trade?

i guess the dev's won't send pm's anyone just incase they get posted on here.

I don't know, it's been ages since I went to an actual game store, I make all my purchases from Amazon, Ebay (used) or Game.co.uk, so yep it's a possibility.

-----

Unrelated, but I'm curious about the sales figure for the SH 4 U-boat add-on. I bought it together with SH4, first week of release, and there was no copy protection.

bigboywooly

01-30-10, 07:43 AM

I don't know, it's been ages since I went to an actual game store, I make all my purchases from Amazon, Ebay (used) or Game.co.uk, so yep it's a possibility.

-----

Unrelated, but I'm curious about the sales figure for the SH 4 U-boat add-on. I bought it together with SH4, first week of release, and there was no copy protection.

Thats because one of the patches for SH4 removed the copy protection

John W. Hamm

01-30-10, 07:43 AM

there you shot yerself in the foot.

You HAVE to respect the privacy. Just like you expect them to respect yours DRM and all.

It's a bit like 'off the record'. Unless you get permission in the PM to include all or part of the PM in a public forum, it should remain private.

For the last time you should quit assuming where it came from...What the hell? one person say's "OHITHINKTHISCAMEFROMAPM!!!" and suddenly this is gospel??? LAY OFF!

Wintahs

01-30-10, 07:46 AM

The developer is right. Seriously, how many times has your internet been out in the past 12 months? For me, 0. What's the problem?

TDK1044

01-30-10, 07:46 AM

For the last time you should quit assuming where it came from...What the hell? one person say's "OHITHINKTHISCAMEFROMAPM!!!" and suddenly this is gospel??? LAY OFF!

:rotfl2:

HundertzehnGustav

01-30-10, 07:47 AM

OH COME ON NOW!:damn:

PRIVATE message.
For your eyes only.
No matter whats inside keep it to yer fekkin self!, thats what it means.

Are you a thrustworthy person or WHAT?

Iranon

01-30-10, 07:47 AM

Publishers of PC games don't have it easy in a number of ways. Piracy isn't the only problem:

Sufficiently complex games often reach their peak a long time after they hit the shelves.
Many require patching for a long time (and this isn't always a bad sign - with enough complexity and a playerbase willing to get into fine nuances many issues will crop up that you can't predict with a reasonable amount of playtesting).
Others will be impoved by the players themselves - sub sims are a typical example.

Provided you have something to amuse yourself with in the meantime - and I do because there are plenty of classics with so much replay value that they'll last me for decades, as well as creative freeware titles - it usually makes sense to wait until you can pick up a game from the discount bin anyway.

John W. Hamm

01-30-10, 07:47 AM

:rotfl2::rotfl2:

bigboywooly

01-30-10, 07:47 AM

The developer is right. Seriously, how many times has your internet been out in the past 12 months? For me, 0. What's the problem?

Not a problem
For YOU
But for many it is

Plus we dont want to be shackled to ubis servers
Thats the main point

JU_88

01-30-10, 07:49 AM

Umm no I disagree there too. If you do something in plain public view you have no reasonable expectation of privacy. And I will not use DRM, if I did I would not have a reasonable expectation of privacy.

It wasnt in plain public view though, was it?
To be fair, the PM issue is not about John W. Hamm challenging Ubisoft,
Its about John W. Hamm challenging one Person, a dev.
You are forgetting that you are dealing with an individual who likely had no part in the DRM.

If you were upset with the Mcdonalds co-operation over some company wide policy to not serve you a McMuffin after 11am, you wouldnt go and slap the cashire in the face at your local branch. Would you?

Basically you are seeing the dev as a Ubisoft punch bag (hence the heated nature of his reply)
and not as an indervidual.
He represents the evil company so its 'fair game' is that it?

HundertzehnGustav

01-30-10, 07:51 AM

what about their servers being down for tecghnical issues
or just outright voluntarily?
to fuel the development of SHVI?
Will they keep the servers running for the next 10 years, as long as people might possibly technically be willing to play it?

LOL!

Kretschmer the IV

01-30-10, 07:52 AM

I don't get it.

If they actually do this DRM thing, the piracy rate will drastically increase.
Thas logical for me. Broadband internet is still not state of the art.

John W. Hamm

01-30-10, 07:52 AM

To be fair, the PM issue is not about John W. Hamm versus Ubisoft,
Its about John W. Hamm versis one Person, a dev.
Youre are forgetting that you are dealing with an individual who one of the who likely had no part in the DRM.

If you ar upset with the macdonalds co-operation over some company wide policy, you dont go and slap the cashire in the face at your local branch. Do you?

Of course you don't you try to go to the nearest figure head that seems to think they know what is going on AND (I stipulate this) makes themself available...and in this respect that is what i did...

Adriatico

01-30-10, 07:53 AM

The developer is right. Seriously, how many times has your internet been out in the past 12 months? For me, 0. What's the problem?

For me 30-40 times that I know... and who knows how many "short" cuts... What do You think that this planet is - Belgium ?

And how many things You bought in a last 12 months that you have to share and use with seller ?
:hmmm:

Mikhayl

01-30-10, 07:56 AM

Thats because one of the patches for SH4 removed the copy protection

Yep, but I mean since 1.5 patches the .exe too they could have put some form of protection, but didn't. Wonder if the add-on was more/less pirates than the average Ubi game with copy protection :hmmm:

Anchorman

01-30-10, 07:58 AM

Honestly ... if it WORKS I have no qualms with it, i call it a necessary evil, that might be influenced by my local conditions, but I most people on here are connected to the Internet pretty much all the time.

However... if it doesn't work, and the game is still pirated, thats when I have the problem, as it's not a necessary evil, just an evil, and theres no reason to put up with it, if it doesn't work.

bigboywooly

01-30-10, 08:01 AM

Yep, but I mean since 1.5 patches the .exe too they could have put some form of protection, but didn't. Wonder if the add-on was more/less pirates than the average Ubi game with copy protection :hmmm:

Be interesting to know
Be interesting to know how many actually bought it purely for the patch with no interest in the addon part itself

I guess since removing copy protection they didnt want to reintroduce it as they werent going to release nothing else for SH4 to include a removal

TDK1044

01-30-10, 08:04 AM

Ubisoft has made a business decision. It's a roll of the dice for them and for the Silent Hunter franchise.

Ironically, just when it looks like they have pretty much released the SDK with the game, I believe that the fall out from the members here and at similar forums choosing not to purchase the game, and the fact that I don't believe that there will be the numbers of casual gamers Ubisoft has anticipated, I think the franchise could end with this fiasco.

JU_88

01-30-10, 08:08 AM

I think the franchise could end with this fiasco.

Sad but true. :down:
If the DRM controversy damages sales badly enough, it could also be the nail the coffin for any offcial SHV add-ons also.
If you want, type IXs and and later war years, SHV needs to sell lots of units.
The sad part is, the DRM will probably patch out after a year.

Reece

01-30-10, 08:10 AM

I didn't read the whole thread but 90% piracy!! wonder how they come to that figure, I would tend to think that there just wasn't a market for the games that they did the research on! sorry but I will not believe that!!:nope:
Think about it, how would they know how many people were to buy a product, and how many decided to pirate it, since when would a pirate advertise that he copied/downloaded the game?:doh:
What a load of speculated hooey!!:yep: (better add IMO!:oops:)

Mikhayl

01-30-10, 08:13 AM

I don't think this would end the franchise, maybe temporarily but sooner or later there will be a SH6.
Besides, if the game is good, if it has comprehensive modding tools and if it proves a good platform for modding/expending, the game could well be played and modded by a large number of people well into 2015 and more if there's no decent offering by that time.

TDK1044

01-30-10, 08:16 AM

As always, it will all come down to sales. :)

IanC

01-30-10, 08:17 AM

JU_88

01-30-10, 08:20 AM

I agree with you that PMs should be private, but I get the impression that when the dev said this;

He had a good idea that it would be made public. And when you think about it, he probably did want his message out there, hence the long reply. Just my gut feeling.

fair point, still I would have asked for his permission first.

HundertzehnGustav

01-30-10, 08:26 AM

whats this "chances in the gaming industry" anyway.
i dont see no progress, just regression into a dark age of control over the masses.

IanC

01-30-10, 08:30 AM

John W. Hamm

01-30-10, 08:30 AM

fair point, still I would have asked for his permission first.

Finally it's been understood...of course he knew. I stated time and again he had no reasonable expectation of privacy! and he KNEW IT!!!!! now would you please lay off all this crap and quit sending me hate mail!!! as though I broke damn cardinal GD rule!!!

longdog499

01-30-10, 08:32 AM

Anyone who thinks that the Dev was sending that message to Mr. Hamm and that he was not going to tell anybody else must be living somewhere over the rainbow. It was sent for a reason.

Takeda Shingen

01-30-10, 08:38 AM

Maybe we should all just calm down a bit. Attacking each other benefits no man.

The Management

JU_88

01-30-10, 08:41 AM

now would you please lay off all this crap and quit sending me hate mail!!! as though I broke damn cardinal GD rule!!!

Who is sending you hate mail?:hmmm:
I was pointing out that its bad practice to publish PM's. but in this case yes, I will stand down.
I may disagreewith you - but I certainlty dont hate you for it.

XLjedi

01-30-10, 08:44 AM

Consoles continue to get an unfair bad rap...

The games can be sophisticated if developers make them so, mouse and keyboards can be attached, harddrives can hold moddable files, resolutions are HD quality now. What are you waiting for? :hmmm:

Go ahead and move the game to consoles. I'd rather see that than this PC DRM nonsense. In fact, I'd be happy to have a standardized distribution platform and not have to worry about devoting half of my time to optimizing graphic settings and earning a half-degree in IT graphics geekery.

Oh, and if anyone thinks UbiSoft will suffer from lacking sales on SH5 you're kidding yourselves. PC games are not where UbiSoft makes its money; SH5 won't even appear as a blip on their income statement.

SteamWake

01-30-10, 08:45 AM

That is sad...Romania has better internet than I do.

This... made me laugh ! :salute:

You guys act as if console games dont get pirated either.

IanC

01-30-10, 08:45 AM

He said 90% of Ubisoft pc games are pirated?
Something doesn't sound right about that figure... :hmmm:

John W. Hamm

01-30-10, 08:45 AM

Who is sending you hate mail?:hmmm:
I was pointing out that its bad practice to publish PM's. but in this case yes, I will stand down.
I may disagreewith you - but I certainlty dont hate you for it.

It's been dealt with....don't sweet it.

Doolan

01-30-10, 08:49 AM

I see many wrong points in that message.

Sure, I feel for him, but appeal to pity alone is not going to change my mind.

First off, he assumes that this DRM will help against piracy, which has not been proved. In fact, if we look at past examples, digital distribution is one of the few things that have helped.

Second off, he implies that paying customers are to blame. If I understood it correctly, his argument is that, since pirates steal games, paying customers have to keep paying regardless product quality or user experience and in spite of being treated like potential thieves. Otherwise, the industry will collapse and it will be THEIR fault.

In my opinion, if anything, it's the publishers' fault for not finding and applying the correct incentive. Games with actual gameplay, that look and feel finished and solid, that offer great chances of expansion through mods and that address a community directly instead of trying to please everyone and failing in every front have always been must-buys for me. I bought them for me, I bought them for friends, I bought them again when the GOTY edition was released just so I wouldn't have to hunt for patches... Or even, games that require a constant connection but actually use it to give you extra content, say a solid multiplayer experience, quality DLC, stats, achievements, etc.

Examples for this are previous SH titles, the Jagged Alliance and X-Com series, the Total War series (even though E:TW started committing some of the mentioned sins), the Civilization series, and many others.

Convenience is a very strong selling point. I purchased at least five copies of SH3 for me and my friends. Three of them ended up being cracked because the DRM did not work in 64-bit systems. This was a case of piracy being MORE CONVENIENT THAN A LEGIT PURCHASE, and this is obviously a bad decision.

Having to stay online constantly while you play does not prevent piracy. Activation could, I give you that. Even activation every time you launch. But 24 / 7 can have many issues. One is that, if you check the Ubi forums, their servers are down frequently for hours on end. That means you can't play. Another is if you play from a laptop on holidays or at school or in any place where a net connection is not readily available. I'm not even taking into account random internet downtime from your ISP, a network card that dies or a cable that breaks, all issues that should not keep you away from a single-player game.

Steam got convenience right. The price I pay is having to activate online and needing a connection going at least once every fifteen days. What do I get in return? I forget about CDs completely. I forget about CD keys completely. If I reinstall my OS or upgrade my computer, I don't have to manually reinstall all my games: I just tell Steam to download and install them all. I get achievements, a friends list, MP games that are easy to set up, in-game chat with people who are not playing, the possibility of buying games without actually going to the store, pre-downloading things before release, infinite availability in any territory and any day of the week.

In other words, steam is MORE CONVENIENT THAN PIRATING. Pirating a game is harder work than buying it on steam and getting done with it. But Ubi's scheme, it honestly looks easier to buy the game and crack it so you get the same experience without relying on the whim of their servers.

And of course, if buying and cracking is easier than just buying... Why not skip the buying part altogether?

But I suppose that means I'm a terrible person. I have bought every single SH title ever released, but it is MY fault that each has been buggier than the last, more simplified, subject to DRM issues with the stupid StarForce drivers, requiring enormous patches just for destroyers to do their job, more limited in content...

It is my fault, so I deserve to be treated like a potential thief. Pirates still pirate, just the same as they did before, but it is me, a paying customer, that has to adapt. And if with all that the game fails, guys, it's our fault for not preordering blindly.

This DRM only ensures that people who would have bought it in the first place play legally. That is redundant.

I have cancelled my preorder, I will wait, and one or two days after release I will check two or three torrent sites at random. If I find the game there, I will laugh and yell "I told you".

HundertzehnGustav

01-30-10, 08:55 AM

I get achievements, a friends list, MP games that are easy to set up, in-game chat with people who are not playing, the possibility of buying games without actually going to the store, pre-downloading things before release, infinite availability in any territory and any day of the week.

none of that interests me.
None of that "adds" to the "lonely captain in the boat"-experience of a subsim.

IanC

01-30-10, 09:00 AM

none of that interests me.
None of that "adds" to the "lonely captain in the boat"-experience of a subsim.

:lol: :agree:

karamazovnew

01-30-10, 09:02 AM

Lt.Fillipidis

01-30-10, 09:05 AM

I too believe that this DRM thing will be abandoned sooner or later.
For the following reasons:

Lack of internet connection. I know a bunch of people who dont have one due to low income.

Unstable connections

Low speed connections combined with something downloaded from any site using uTorrent or Rapidshare. (I personally use rapidshare too much to exchange files with my friends. Photos, videos, etc. Im a photo maniac)

None likes to be tracked.

Doolan

01-30-10, 09:05 AM

none of that interests me.
None of that "adds" to the "lonely captain in the boat"-experience of a subsim.

Oh, I'm not saying it should!

I just meant, if you are going to get DRM anyway, what do you prefer? DRM with a bunch of assorted goodies you will never use, or DRM with a kick in the balls? :D

John W. Hamm

01-30-10, 09:06 AM

Highbury

01-30-10, 09:09 AM

They can add it in the Special Edition LOL :up:

Doolan

01-30-10, 09:09 AM

Apparently Ubi is really counting on this OSP thing to work. So, if it gets cracked and doesn't change a thing, OUCH. I wish for this thing to work. At least we'll have for the first time a clear picture about this whole piracy-sales thing. As for offline games why don't they just put in a USB dongle in the box? It's uncrackable. I wouldn't mind paying a bit more for the game to be able to play it on my laptop.

Well, to be 100% honest I have seen USB dongles routinely cracked. Many 3D authoring programs use those, and many are available in torrent sites anyway.

Of course, chance is nobody would bother to go though all that cracking work for a game that costs a few bucks, so you might be right.

bigboywooly

01-30-10, 09:10 AM

Yep, but I mean since 1.5 patches the .exe too they could have put some form of protection, but didn't. Wonder if the add-on was more/less pirates than the average Ubi game with copy protection :hmmm:

As for offline games why don't they just put in a USB dongle in the box? It's uncrackable. I wouldn't mind paying a bit more for the game to be able to play it on my laptop.

:hmmm: not a bad idea
Dongles are pennies in bulk to a publisher - no dongle no play
And something that cant be cracked - well i guess the contents of the dongle could be ripped or the exe altered to not look for it

Much the same as they do now

:damn:

karamazovnew

01-30-10, 09:11 AM

Hmmm would that work? I actually never thought of that...potential!

I'm not sure how cracking works... but UBI could release USB1 dongles with just a tiny bit of memory that act as a lan server connection. You buy ONE and activate online which games you can play with the dongle. Let's say 3 games max. Or, if it's unsafe, one dongle per game sold separately for a low price. Heck, a 256 MB USB is costs than a beer.

HundertzehnGustav

01-30-10, 09:12 AM

Oh, I'm not saying it should!

I just meant, if you are going to get DRM anyway, what do you prefer? DRM with a bunch of assorted goodies you will never use, or DRM with a kick in the balls? :D

I dont mind the extra "goodies" (bullcrap...:shifty:) of such a DRM sheme like Steam offers. but i want to turn them OFF. and i mean completely OFF. I want Control of what happens to my connection and my PC, complete control "à outrance".

karamazovnew

01-30-10, 09:14 AM

:hmmm: not a bad idea
Dongles are pennies in bulk to a publisher - no dongle no play
And something that cant be cracked - well i guess the contents of the dongle could be ripped or the exe altered to not look for it

Much the same as they do now

:damn:

That's the main concern. Since they'll be dealing with an entire company line of games, crackers will spare no effort in cracking it. I wonder how much effort really went into this OSP :hmmm:

BadPirate

01-30-10, 09:16 AM

Most of the time, I only read this forum, and I must say something, that is MY OPINION, which does not mean it's true, but that's how I think.

90% piracy rate might be too much, I would say probably, 65-75%.
Since a pirate is a 'n' word in IT community, I will try to walk the fine line.
No, I do not promote piracy, but I feel their opinion must be heard as well....
Some pirates actually buy the game [quite a lot of them still...] if the game is good. Sorta like a demo, try before you buy.
"Support the developers if you like it. We did"
That is written on ALL game cracks by all MAJOR cracking groups.
And if they can, they WILL. It's been a practice for a long time. Just browse their forums. They actually support QUALITY product.
Now, compare games in playability from the 90's like Deus Ex 1! In it's day and age, I would still vote for it to be GOTY material!
We had FINISHED game, good story, stable, and primitive anti-piracy measures which did not matter much... But such games were a success! Because even pirates bought them and recommend them to other newcomers! At this moment, someone is buying that!
Now, what we have? In pirate's own words, mainstream'd and consolized games with nice graphics [even beautiful ones!!!] with limited gameplay, content, story..... Health regeneration, absence of exploring game world, chalenges, lack of modding due to DLC's which should have been in the game in the first place, for which you have to pay, unoptimized PORTS from consoles to PC....
What else are pirates talking about? Well, that games are targeted towards "BRAINDEAD console kiddies".... PC games....
Pirates are bad.... At this moment, many of them are buying BETA keys from online sites for Battlefield 2: Bad Company! Hello, beta, UNFINISHED game yet, and still they BUY keys to play.... and will pay FULL PRICE once it comes out... Because the game is GOOD ENOUGH.... Especially in multi-player....

MESSAGE TO UBI:

People would swallow UNFINISHED war till '43, absence of more u-boat models, even payable dlc's, EVEN 5$ per month multiplayer subscription, that is if it works PERFECTLY in the first place... But, with these restrictions against pirates, they will surely NOT BUY this game at all, so you lost NOTHING FROM THEM! Good graphics =/= good game. PLAYABILITY!
Remember that. IF the gameplay is good, then someone would buy it.
Assuming legit customer is a potential thief is a sign of DISRESPECT.

And as most people here said, do not pursue quick cash and milking strategy. Go back to the old roots, and money will come to you naturally.
I just wanted to tell you what the "other side" is thinking....

Note to mods/admins: This is NOT promoting piracy. No links or clues to location of cracks have been given. No dissing towards devs or ubi in any uncivilized manner. If there is a breach of rules that others have not committed, delete this and send me a warning via PM. Thank you.

Gezoes

01-30-10, 09:22 AM

I understand Ubi's position, and it's nice that he replied. Must not be easy to see the revolt, I'll give him that. We all love the series, that hasn't changed. He did forget however that we can accept something like Steam and gamers worldwide already have. I do not like being told as if we don't accept any of these distribution/authentication networks and are to be responsible for the end of Ubisoft or the world ending in 2012.

You don't catch a thief by filtering out and chaining all the innocents. That's not something I associate with the plunk-plunk-plunk-plunk logo I still find very nice to see when I start a game.

We are angry with good reason, don't tell us we are responsible for the end of pc-gaming, because we are not. That would be the pirates and game industry itself for releasing below standard games. I'm not saying SH5 is one of those, because it has yet to be released. See? I'm not jumping to conclusions, and neither should this dev. Respect is a two way street.

Moo

karamazovnew

01-30-10, 09:23 AM

Relax Bad Pirate, I've said the same things a few times. As long as you don't say "I can't wait for the game to be cracked", or "I won't buy the game, I'll crack it" you're not offending anyone. Piracy is a fact, just like child pornography. You can talk about it here, but not encourage it :O:

As for the UBM addon, they quickly bundled it with SH4 back in 2008. I own such a copy. One disk.. pretty neat.

mookiemookie

01-30-10, 09:30 AM

If it can be made by humans, it can be cracked by humans. Overly invasive DRM like this will do nothing to deter the pirates. In fact, it will inspire them. Ubi has thrown down the gauntlet, and they will respond. This thing will be cracked within hours of release, if not before.

dcb is right - the carrot and stick approach is the way to go. Giving people a reason to legitimately own the game is a lot more effective than trying to discourage illegitimate ownership. Extra bonuses included with the game - a HUGE and comprehensive manual, a free copy of a book on the Battle of the Atlantic, a miniature U-boat model...things like that would certainly deter the people who have a true interest in the game from just simply pirating it. It probably wouldn't work for the hardcore pirate for life types, but we're back to my first point now - NO system will stop them. Might as well just license something that everyone is already comfortable with, like Steamworks and go from there.

BadPirate

01-30-10, 09:30 AM

Thanks, karamazovnew :salute::yeah:

Hitman

01-30-10, 09:31 AM

if it gets cracked and doesn't change a thing, OUCH. I wish for this thing to work. At least we'll have for the first time a clear picture about this whole piracy-sales thing.

No we wouldn't have a clear picture of what piracy is actually detracting from the sales. There are several reasons for it:

1.- You would add the sales of the current pirates who have money & interest in the game, and would buy it. But you would also need to detract the number of legit users that will not buy the game because of the intrusive protection system. Like me :hmmm:.

2.- You would need the opposite situation to compare, and that means either SH2, 3 or 4. But none of those is comparable. Today internet is more widely spreaded, as are game stores in many countries, as is in general the consumer base. SH5 would sale to legit users more than SH3 to legit users, just because there are currently more users in total. Plus from what we have seen so far, the scope of the game might have actually changed a bit, in arcade direction.

In all, it looks to me as if SH5 is follwoing the trend of modern mass-sales games: Unfinished product, quick thrill, more arcade, less depth, please a more naive crowd, attract more pirates, and as such need to take stronger security measures against them.

All the previous SH2,3 &4 ended up in the bargain bin with DRM removed, so I guess you can say that:

-The more pure simulator, the less appealing to masses and more to serious, mature simulator enthusiasts with money, who will buy it. Simulators have the peculiarity of continue selling very well after their prime time date. Hell, SH1 is still being sold today!! Thus, removing protection is considered OK when you adress the mature simulator enthusiast who is not looking at the latest release, but at a good product. And will buy it.

-The more arcade, the more appealing to the wide crowd, with less money and always willing to rip it pirate like.

The silent hunter series is, regretably, facing in the wrong direction....:nope:

Boris

01-30-10, 09:43 AM

Here's a good article on piracy and its exaggerated impact:

http://www.mawhorter.net/general/piracy-and-the-myth-of-lost-profits

karamazovnew

01-30-10, 09:46 AM

HItman, I wasn't talking about SH5. I was talking about the future line of games that UBI will release in the coming year.

RUSE
World in Conflict Soviet Assault
Splinter Cell Conviction
Assassin's Creed 2
PoP

BadPirate

01-30-10, 09:51 AM

World in Conflict Soviet Assault

This was released a while ago as an expansion?:hmmm:

karamazovnew

01-30-10, 09:53 AM

This was released a while ago as an expansion?:hmmm:

RELEASE DATE: 13/03/2009

Sorry, that pretty much shows how much I care about that game :haha:

KL-alfman

01-30-10, 10:08 AM

@ bad pirate_

interesting info about a side I never got in touch with.
do you think that publishers like UBI have contacts in there? or do they at least try to gain information about this scene?

JU_88

01-30-10, 10:15 AM

:hmmm: not a bad idea
Dongles are pennies in bulk to a publisher - no dongle no play
And something that cant be cracked -
:damn:

Oh yes they can, I remember early versions of 3d studio max used to require a dongle.
it was cracked in no time with simple 20kb patch.

GlobalExplorer

01-30-10, 10:17 AM

This thread makes me sad, because that mail can only mean SHV will have the nextgen DRM. Why should he defend it, otherwise.

And it didn't change my position by an inch. He repeats only old, flawed arguments pro DRM.

Really sad. So no SHV and probably no Storm Of War for me.

bigboywooly

01-30-10, 10:21 AM

Oh yes they can, I remember early versions of 3d studio max used to require a dongle.
it was cracked in no time with simple 20kb patch.

Did you stop at that point in my post or read on
:rotfl2:

I said they would just change the exe to ignore a dongle
As they do now anyway

:yeah:

tater

01-30-10, 10:39 AM

Here's a radical idea to curb the spread of software piracy -

Dont charge people one of their kidneys for one of your fricken games.

Had to reply to this.

Games are cheap. $50 is expensive? Anyone who thinks a PC game is expensive should move out of Mom's basement. Seriously.

That's why I think the piracy numbers as it relates to sales are bogus. Games are already cheaper than a single night out for a few beers and some chow.

msalama

01-30-10, 10:41 AM

As for offline games why don't they just put in a USB dongle in the box? It's uncrackable. I wouldn't mind paying a bit more for the game to be able to play it on my laptop.A very good question, Sir. USB / serial dongle keys used to be somewhat expensive, and were only found with some hi-end / professional applications in the past. But nowadays? I'm pretty sure you could manufacture a carpload of them quite reasonably...

Haaallooo UBI, now how's _that_ for a DRM solution??? :up:

EDIT / PS. But as others have already pointed out, uncrackable they're not. Still better than nothing IMHO - and nowadays cheap too.

Uber Gruber

01-30-10, 10:42 AM

Its "reds under the beds" time again....except this season it's pirates!

Yehar me mateys! Shiver me DRMs.

JU_88

01-30-10, 10:43 AM

Did you stop at that point in my post or read on
:rotfl2:

I said they would just change the exe to ignore a dongle
As they do now anyway

:yeah:

Err I stopped at that point, :oops: Im good at that :D

BadPirate

01-30-10, 10:43 AM

@ bad pirate_

interesting info about a side I never got in touch with.
do you think that publishers like UBI have contacts in there? or do they at least try to gain information about this scene?

I don't think so......
Seeing as they are trying to impose these measures, I don't even think they try!
What they are saying there is what we are saying here. They are a funny bunch to hang out. Most have they multiplayer clans, competitions, one-on-one, they discuss released games, how long is it, is it stable, buggy, game story, tips & tricks, nothing "terroristic" about them...
After all, it's all common sense... Critics are always welcome!
Thing is, pirates are a scapegoat, an excuse for mediocre product quality that is being served today, as opposed to what it used to be.

Let me ask you something:
I make a car, call it GTX Turbo, and say:
This car has all the premium features like wheel turning, headlight, breathtaking design on speedometer, last-gen handbrake. But, to support me, you will have to pay additional 35$ for seatbelt and radio player. Also, I restricted maximum speed to 60 km/h because I want YOU to drive how I want! And yes, ,it had integrated gps system so i can track you whenever you use you car, so that i know you are using it.
But you brought another car instead that does not have these limitations, but the point is, YOU STOLE FROM ME! You sir, did not buy my car, but another, and I see that you did not give me your money. So I blame you for everything.
See the pattern? :smug:
No?
Me a dev, you a customer, car a game, limited features and restrictions....
Not a good comparison, but still awesome!
Here's something to think about, not related to discussion...
http://www.cracked.com/article_16404_5-reasons-gta-iv-worst-great-game-ever-made.html

No more off topic from me.

NOTE: cracked.com is a humor site, not a software piracy.... thing....

P.S. Some countries are very poor, like where I am, so I am a pirate!
I have a job that is paid 260 a month.
It's all expensive and you're just living to survive.
Take bills, expenses and food, you don't have much to spend.
10-15e game I can afford. 50 euro game, not a chance in hell....

Safe-Keeper

01-30-10, 10:50 AM

I applaud the dev in the OP for his great points, even though I do not applaud the OP himself for posting it here without the dev's permission.

Let me ask you something:
I make a car, call it GTX Turbo, and say:
This car has all the premium features like wheel turning, headlight, breathtaking design on speedometer, last-gen handbrake. But, to support me, you will have to pay additional 35$ for seatbelt and radio player. Also, I restricted maximum speed to 60 km/h because I want YOU to drive how I want! And yes, ,it had integrated gps system so i can track you whenever you use you car, so that i know you are using it.
But you brought another car instead that does not have these limitations, but the point is, YOU STOLE FROM ME! You sir, did not buy my car, but another, and I see that you did not give me your money. So I blame you for everything.
See the pattern? :smug:
No?
Me a dev, you a customer, car a game, limited features and restrictions....
Not a good comparison, but still awesome!
Here's something to think about, not related to discussion...
http://www.cracked.com/article_16404...ever-made.html (http://www.cracked.com/article_16404_5-reasons-gta-iv-worst-great-game-ever-made.html)You do realize, of course, that this is an incredibly flawed analogy.

Onkel Neal

01-30-10, 10:53 AM

John, did you clear this with the person about publishing his private message?

BadPirate

01-30-10, 10:54 AM

You do realize, of course, that this is an incredibly flawed analogy.
True that... Help me out, brother....:|\\

KL-alfman

01-30-10, 10:55 AM

mookiemookie

01-30-10, 10:56 AM

Had to reply to this.

Games are cheap. $50 is expensive? Anyone who thinks a PC game is expensive should move out of Mom's basement. Seriously.

That's why I think the piracy numbers as it relates to sales are bogus. Games are already cheaper than a single night out for a few beers and some chow.

And inflation-wise, they're getting cheaper. They've been $50 for as long as I can remember. Name one other good besides computer games that still costs the same as it did 10 years ago.

JScones

01-30-10, 10:59 AM

tater

01-30-10, 10:59 AM

The car analogy makes no sense to me. I have no right to a BMW if I cannot afford a BMW. Sorry. I don't think anyone is claiming that when said person instead buys a Kia BMW saying a sale was stolen from them.

The people that cannot afford to buy a game for $50, even $100? Then they should buy something they can afford, it doesn't justify theft.

The theft is wrong, even if the pirate never would have bought the game. The fact that he wouldn't actually buy it does alter the bottom line calculation for the company, however. There is also the fact that readily available cracks mean that some people that might have ponied up money don't and steal it instead (a real loss to the producer).

If they come up with a DRM scheme that actually works, they need to weigh how any downsides to it might negatively impact sales. It's a cost-benefit analysis. If the honest customers are put off enough to matter, then it's a net loss to them. Time will tell, I suppose.

A simple (IMO) solution to the online issue might be to allow "trusted" customers to avoid the system. People who have legal copies of (to use myself as an example) SH4, SH4 add-on, and every single Il-2 version can submit those serials and Ubi then realizes I'm not a criminal, and their DRM then doesn't treat me like one. Not gonna happen, but it's an idea.

BadPirate

01-30-10, 11:00 AM

:D I completely understand your point, bad pirate.

in fact, I consider all the measures made by the industry (or in our case: UBI) limiting my freedom, invading my private spere and collecting data about my habits which I wouldn't like them to get. you don't have to convince me :up:

in a way, it's sad for me not be able to play SH5 but with OSP I never will.
Thanks... :)
Privacy and internet do not work well together...
But let's say that this drm thing is for stats/savegame upload/download....
Why not make it as part of the process, when you autopatch at the start of the game like in SH4UBM, at the same time you finish the job once per week?
Even starforce was cracked, sure it took a long time, but yeah...
Oh, I heard once UBI used no cd/dvd crack to fix their "protection" on one of their games.... :D

tater

01-30-10, 11:05 AM

I used to play WarBirds when it was hourly.

My wife was in med school and very busy so I had to entertain myself. I had multi-hundred dollar bills for warbirds every single month. That was in the early or mid 90s, too, I think, so it was more in current dollars.

Letum

01-30-10, 11:06 AM

I remember buying "B17 Flying Fortress" back in 1990 for AU$89.95... T'was a lot at the time, and a "special occassion" kind of purchase (my g/f at the time bought it for me for Christmas).

20 years later...and new games are still AU$89.95.

Was that the one that came on floppy disks?
I still have that big ring binder manual for it. :rock:

Don't make em' like they used to.

BadPirate

01-30-10, 11:07 AM

A simple (IMO) solution to the online issue might be to allow "trusted" customers to avoid the system. People who have legal copies of (to use myself as an example) SH4, SH4 add-on, and every single Il-2 version can submit those serials and Ubi then realizes I'm not a criminal, and their DRM then doesn't treat me like one. Not gonna happen, but it's an idea.
How do I know you're a trusted customer?
Well, snap a pic of your purchase receipt, serial cd key and boxed copy or download link, send it to legitcustomers@sales.ubi.com and I will believe you.

I like more Hearts of Iron 3 approach....
Buy the game, enter a serial in a forum profile, boom, you have the game to patches, mods, exclusive content and whadayaIknow....
Or make the FADE thing like when first SH4 came out, or like in ARMA 2, u-boat transforms into pig swimming.....

tonschk

01-30-10, 11:11 AM

developer has a good point there. I see no reason why they should not protect their product. It is not easy to make a game you know :)

and eventually it will be your choice. Either play with consoles or stay online with a drm.

What is so bad about it? I seriously hope that thanks to drm ubi will make a ton of profit from sh5 and can use that money to carry on with the series. Make better sh6 and etc.

And yes, i have not got any internet connection problems at all. It is year 2010 and we have steady connections almost everywhere, i dont understand what is all the fuss about :woot:

We allow microsoft to access our computer every day. So why not let ubisoft do the same :)

.

I fully agree , therefore i will buy silent hunter 5

.

Onkel Neal

01-30-10, 11:15 AM

Mate, please tell me you didnt receive this via PM. If so, dont you think you should have kept it to yourself?
IMO Posting PMs on the forum is pretty disrespectful, that message was intended for you - not for everyone.
Its called a 'private message' for a reason.

Thank you, at least someone recognized this as a problem :) In the future guys, please report as a Bad Post anyone who does something like this, it's important to the integrity of this forum.

MMmmm Yes and no, had I disclosed who it was I could see your point, but I don't think (unless he lives with his head in the sand) he would really think it wouldn't be posted...Maybe I'm just nuts for thinking this but like he said "You don't know me" and I don't know him...So anything he is saying to me he can be saying to anyone...because he has no idea who he is talking to. I'm just some guy who got a hold of his address and it isn't like he said anything in confidence to me...again how do you say something in confidence when you have never even talked to this person before online or otherwise...I do not and will not even come close to feeling guilty for posting this...there is no way that he could consider a reasonable expectation of privacy in this situation....period. There is no question that he knew it would be put out.

John, I know you are passionate about this DRM thing but I really cannot believe you would PM a developer who is actually a member of this forum, provoke him into replying, then post his Private Message on the forum, where it can be picked apart--and he has NO chance to reply, because he could lose his job if he does. Every developer, Ubisoft Romania, Sonalysts, EA, Akella, whoever, are under strict instructions by their company not to release information unless it has been approved by the managers. Occasionally a dev like Dan will post to clarify something or to join in the comraderie, and the company permits that. This is their job we are talking about.

there is no way that he could consider a reasonable expectation of privacy in this situation....period

To put a man into the position you have is inexcusable. Great way to make a reasoned arguement against "piracy".

For the record; there is no actual proof that this "dev" who allegedly made this comment exists, he could be a fiction created by the original poster.

People, feel free to continue the discssion in a new thread. Minus the developer's comments, please.

Neal

Onkel Neal

01-30-10, 11:26 AM

Kudos to each of you and others who had the integrity to call the OP out for this. Guys, this forum will only be as good as each of us makes it. :salute:

Yup, Ju88 is right.
This whole thing does not reflect well on Subsim.

@mikhayl, so why's my local 'game' store pc section getting smaller and smaller then? or is 'steam' and similar platforms stealing their trade?

i guess the dev's won't send pm's anyone just incase they get posted on here.

there you shot yerself in the foot.

You HAVE to respect the privacy. Just like you expect them to respect yours DRM and all.

It's a bit like 'off the record'. Unless you get permission in the PM to include all or part of the PM in a public forum, it should remain private.

OH COME ON NOW!:damn:

PRIVATE message.
For your eyes only.
No matter whats inside keep it to yer fekkin self!, thats what it means.

Are you a thrustworthy person or WHAT?