All those not buying SH5 please move along.

[cherbert]

Can all the whiners who are not buying SH5 please leave and go back to the SH3 and SH4 forums you really are polluting the threads in here.

I bet half of you are hypocrites and will buy the game and are simply jumping on the anti-drm bandwagon.

Yes DRM sucks - but all I'm interested in at the moment is the excitement of what looks to be a an amazing leap forward in Submarine simulations and all I want to do is share that with like minded individuals who are as excited as I am. I always thought that was what subsim.com was all about.

The announced modding features virtually mean we are not a million miles from having what looks like a full SDK. Should we not be excited about this?

If you aren't buying it then move along - you don't need to be here.

Failing that can Neil create a forum called SH5 - Anti-DRM campaign. And leave the rest of us to look forward to this game in peace.

[Jaeger]

+1

very good post!

[onelifecrisis]

All those not buying SH5 please move along.

:rotfl2:

[Letum]

We'r going nowhere until things change. :stare:

How about you head off the the Ubi-forums. Might be your kinda place.

[urfisch]

Uhh...an optimist!!! NICE! Rare species...may someone go, get the net and catch him?

:03:

[Kefru]

Can all the whiners who are not buying SH5 please leave and go back to the SH3 and SH4 forums you really are polluting the threads in here.

I bet half of you are hypocrites and will buy the game and are simply jumping on the anti-drm bandwagon.

Yes DRM sucks - but all I'm interested in at the moment is the excitement of what looks to be a an amazing leap forward in Submarine simulations and all I want to do is share that with like minded individuals who are as excited as I am. I always thought that was what subsim.com was all about.

The announced modding features virtually mean we are not a million miles from having what looks like a full SDK. Should we not be excited about this?

If you aren't buying it then move along - you don't need to be here.

Failing that can Neil create a forum called SH5 - Anti-DRM campaign. And leave the rest of us to look forward to this game in peace.


No this is a community discussion forum and we are all free to voice our concerns. If I want to be censored I will join the Official Ubisoft Silent Hunter Forum

[Jaeger]

you guys forget that ubi isnt selling the game to subsim only. the casual gamer is the first target for earning money, and the casual gamer isnt interested in drm in or not. so, there is no need to complain about ubi, most of the players will like it, though drm is in.

conclusion: please stop dashing the forum with your complains. take one thread for this and stop changing each thread to a drm discussion. you are against it, most people arent.

[TDK1044]

you guys forget that ubi isnt selling the game to subsim only. the casual gamer is the first target for earning money, and the casual gamer isnt interested in drm in or not. so, there is no need to complain about ubi, most of the players will like it, though drm is in.

conclusion: please stop dashing the forum with your complains. take one thread for this and stop changing each thread to a drm discussion. you are against it, most people arent.

We'll see how happy the casual gamer is when the Ubisoft servers consistently boot him off, and every time he tries to reconnect he can't. :)

[danlisa]

you guys forget that ubi isnt selling the game to subsim only. the casual gamer is the first target for earning money, and the casual gamer isnt interested in drm in or not. so, there is no need to complain about ubi, most of the players will like it, though drm is in.

conclusion: please stop dashing the forum with your complains. take one thread for this and stop changing each thread to a drm discussion. you are against it, most people arent.

How about no!

This is a discussion board on Subsim for Subsim members and currently 55% of those members are waiting for the DRM to be removed before buying it.

Consequently, only 17% of Subsim members state that the DRM does not bother them.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but one thing that is not tolerated is forceful imposing of those opinions. To you and the OP, you can have your own thoughts on the majority of Subsim members but you can't tell them to Shut Up and Get out.

[sabretwo]

you are against it, most people arent.
Where do you get "most" from?

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=160783

[Jaeger]

No this is a community discussion forum and we are all free to voice our concerns. If I want to be censored I will join the Official Ubisoft Silent Hunter Forum

you dont need to buy it! ubi can do with their products what ever they want to do. when they do it wrong, they wont sell lots of copies. when they do it right, they will sell lots of copies. and to me it looks like they will sell lots of copies atm. the whole "casual gamer group" isnt interested in drm in or not. means: subsimmers are in the minority group. they can try to convince people not to buy it because of drm. but if the majority wouldnt become convinced, sh5 will be as it is promoted atm.

but what you are doing is not to explain the probs of drm, you are dashing the whole forum with your complains against ubi! remember: the bad guy is not ubi, it is the majority who causes ubis decissions!
your understanding of democracy is wrong here. and nobody will censor here. but perhaps, the majority dont want to read the same sentence in each thread... they want to read a discussion about drm, about game featrues and so on, nothing else. if you want to convince the others, please become factual and dont blame ubi. they are the wrong target here (they knwo the majority, you guys dont) dont think, the subsimmers here are the exclusive buyers.

[Jaeger]

Where do you get "most" from?

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=160783

i know, the sh titles selled 1,5 mios of times. i dont think these are all "realism fanatics" like we are. most of them (and these "most" dictate the targest of ubi!) are casual gamers...

[Jaeger]

We'll see how happy the casual gamer is when the Ubisoft servers consistently boot him off, and every time he tries to reconnect he can't. :)

dont confound online play and drm. drm only means, they will save your data on data servers. like cloud computing. office 2007 uses it, each email account is in the internet etc. cloud computing (means to save your data on internet servers) is savier than saving on your harddrive, which will be killed 2 times a year. cloud computing is the future, google has developed a whole system, which runs your software from internet. no hard disk needed anymore. and remember: they only get your ip, not your name! they can do market research (that is why they are doing this, piracy is an alibi here). remember google: they know everything about you!

drm brings one disadvantage: ubi knwos, when you are playing! but more good points: your data is save (data servers never are down, they have security servers (remember your emailaccount, when was it down last time?) and second: drm gives the possibility to update your game and to have online rankings. this is a main point the casual gamer is looking for!

[zulus]

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/5589/drmburninhell729676.jpg (http://img402.imageshack.us/i/drmburninhell729676.jpg/)And all the rest who found its implementation to SH5 applausable by UBI..

[Jaeger]

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/5589/drmburninhell729676.jpg (http://img402.imageshack.us/i/drmburninhell729676.jpg/)And all the rest who found its implementation to SH5 applausable by UBI..

this is a good example of what i was talking about: please become factual and dont dash each thread with these, non factual postings. this thread is about banishing the bitchers, not about drm itself, ok?

[Brag]

Can all the whiners who are not buying SH5 please leave and go back to the SH3 and SH4 forums you really are polluting the threads in here.

I bet half of you are hypocrites and will buy the game and are simply jumping on the anti-drm bandwagon.

Yes DRM sucks - but all I'm interested in at the moment is the excitement of what looks to be a an amazing leap forward in Submarine simulations and all I want to do is share that with like minded individuals who are as excited as I am. I always thought that was what subsim.com was all about.

The announced modding features virtually mean we are not a million miles from having what looks like a full SDK. Should we not be excited about this?

If you aren't buying it then move along - you don't need to be here.

Failing that can Neil create a forum called SH5 - Anti-DRM campaign. And leave the rest of us to look forward to this game in peace.

We agree with you that SH5 is probably a great game. No reason to roll over like a dog and accept DRM/OSP being shoved down our throats. If you want to have your privacy abused--your call.

[Kefru]

you dont need to buy it! ubi can do with their products what ever they want to do. when they do it wrong, they wont sell lots of copies. when they do it right, they will sell lots of copies. and to me it looks like they will sell lots of copies atm. the whole "casual gamer group" isnt interested in drm in or not. means: subsimmers are in the minority group. they can try to convince people not to buy it because of drm. but if the majority wouldnt become convinced, sh5 will be as it is promoted atm.

but what you are doing is not to explain the probs of drm, you are dashing the whole forum with your complains against ubi! remember: the bad guy is not ubi, it is the majority who causes ubis decissions!
your understanding of democracy is wrong here. and nobody will censor here. but perhaps, the majority dont want to read the same sentence in each thread... they want to read a discussion about drm, about game featrues and so on, nothing else. if you want to convince the others, please become factual and dont blame ubi. they are the wrong target here (they knwo the majority, you guys dont) dont think, the subsimmers here are the exclusive buyers.


Thanks for your advice, I did not realise I dont not have to buy the game you have saved me £40. I am not trying to convince anyone about buying SHV everybody can make up their own mind.

I also did not realise that I was dashing the whole forum:rotfl2:and who mentioned democracy ??

Voicing my opinion just like you

[Jaeger]

Thanks for your advice, I did not realise I dont not have to buy the game you have saved me £40. I am not trying to convince anyone about buying SHV everybody can make up their own mind.

I also did not realise that I was dashing the whole forum:rotfl2:and who mentioned democracy ??

Voicing my opinion just like you

at your first point, we are daccord. about dashing the forum: it is not you, it is the whole "anti drm wihtout discussion the point and hijacking each thread group". lots of people in there, and i think most of them didnt understand the whole problem about drm themselfes. only my suggestion.

and third: that was you talking about democarcy, remember your statement about censoring. this means, you think there is no democarcy here, when somebody is banished. you are right here, but, as stated above, there are rules for a discussion. dont hijack threads and try to stay on facts.

[onelifecrisis]

Well speaking seriously it would be nice if the anti-DRM crowd could manage not to turn every single thread into a DRM bitching session.

[Kefru]

at your first point, we are daccord. about dashing the forum: it is not you, it is the whole "anti drm wihtout discussion the point and hijacking each thread group". lots of people in there, and i think most of them didnt understand the whole problem about drm themselfes. only my suggestion.

and third: that was you talking about democarcy, remember your statement about censoring. this means, you think there is no democarcy here, when somebody is banished. you are right here, but, as stated above, there are rules for a discussion. dont hijack threads and try to stay on facts.

What happened to point 2 ??

I think that there is democracy here thats why I am free to state my opinion. Anyway I will practice some self censorship and no longer post in this thread :up:

[stabiz]

Kind of hard when all threads have traces of DRM, pro(!) or con.:)

[zulus]

dont confound online play and drm. drm only means, they will save your data on data servers. like cloud computing. office 2007 uses it, each email account is in the internet etc. cloud computing (means to save your data on internet servers) is savier than saving on your harddrive, which will be killed 2 times a year. cloud computing is the future, google has developed a whole system, which runs your software from internet. no hard disk needed anymore. and remember: they only get your ip, not your name! they can do market research (that is why they are doing this, piracy is an alibi here). remember google: they know everything about you!

drm brings one disadvantage: ubi knwos, when you are playing! but more good points: your data is save (data servers never are down, they have security servers (remember your emailaccount, when was it down last time?) and second: drm gives the possibility to update your game and to have online rankings. this is a main point the casual gamer is looking for!

Can I ask ? Do you actually see what a long peace of crap your speech is..? I just don't know from which end should I begin bashing it.. Luckily to you I'm just too lazy for this atm.. But one I can say about your so frequently mentioned casual player. I assume this should be a 12-year old shoot'em'up arcade style kid who shall by mistake intall SH5 too see what it's all about and after 10 min of play he'll become bored to death and will get back to his good old cs or quake or whatever.. Casual player..my arse. Because Simulator and it's nature isn't ment to be dedicated for casual players at all but for those who became enough mature for it. However these ppl are way more above your casual player mentioned.

[Feuer Frei!]

Can all the whiners who are not buying SH5 please leave and go back to the SH3 and SH4 forums you really are polluting the threads in here.


Yes DRM sucks - but all I'm interested in at the moment is the excitement of what looks to be a an amazing leap forward in Submarine simulations and all I want to do is share that with like minded individuals who are as excited as I am. I always thought that was what subsim.com was all about.

The announced modding features virtually mean we are not a million miles from having what looks like a full SDK. Should we not be excited about this?

If you aren't buying it then move along - you don't need to be here.

Failing that can Neil create a forum called SH5 - Anti-DRM campaign. And leave the rest of us to look forward to this game in peace.

:up:

[JackAubrey]

Can all the whiners who are not buying SH5 please leave and go back to the SH3 and SH4 forums you really are polluting the threads in here.
Sorry Sir, but I fear you got something wrong.

Silent Hunter may simulate a german U-Boat during WW2, but that does not mean that the Forum members are supposed to adhere to the standards of german laws of that time, regarding the undermining of military morale.
The times are over where people got shot for voicing their concerns about the war effort or the leadership. Well, at least here in germany. :DL

So, as long as this is a public Forum on Submarine Games, I think that I am allowed to voice my concerns about Submarine Games, what publishers may make of them in the future and how certain decisions of said publishers will influence my decision to buy or not.
As long as i stay somewhat polite, don't open the same thread over and over again and don't impose my views on other users, I should be allowed of doing so.

Well, at least until Neal, who has the domiciliary rights here, decides it's time to put a stop to a certain topic. Then maybe its again time that people get shot. :haha:

[mookiemookie]

dont confound online play and drm. drm only means, they will save your data on data servers. like cloud computing. office 2007 uses it, each email account is in the internet etc. cloud computing (means to save your data on internet servers) is savier than saving on your harddrive, which will be killed 2 times a year. cloud computing is the future, google has developed a whole system, which runs your software from internet. no hard disk needed anymore. and remember: they only get your ip, not your name! they can do market research (that is why they are doing this, piracy is an alibi here). remember google: they know everything about you!



"[Cloud computing is] stupidity. It's worse than stupidity: it's a marketing hype campaign,"

"Somebody is saying this is inevitable – and whenever you hear somebody saying that, it's very likely to be a set of businesses campaigning to make it true."
:ping:

[Reece]

please stop dashing the forum with your complains. take one thread for this and stop changing each thread to a drm discussion. you are against it, most people arent.No I wont stop!:stare: if you are happy to promote this DRM spyware crap that is your choice, the majority of members here don't share your view, to put it in simple terms, we hate DRM!!! and will freely express our views on this!!:nope:

[mookiemookie]

Well speaking seriously it would be nice if the anti-DRM crowd could manage not to turn every single thread into a DRM bitching session.

Seconded. It is getting a bit tiresome to have every thread be about the DRM issue, regardless of your views on it.

[KL-alfman]

+1 :up:

but I don't second the thread-title at all.

[Feuer Frei!]

Fellow Kaleuns.......
It's not an issue of people not allowed to voice their opinions, far from it, opinions are like @#$%&les, everyone has got one, (one of my sayings in life)......
the issue i personally see with the "majority" of threads here, is that it's not the voicing of the opinions, or whether we live in a free democratic society or not, or whether i personally respect or don't respect another person's opinion (and for the record, i do respect other people's opinions),
what really is "tiring", "old school", "boring" and just plain unoriginal is the continued re-gurgitation or supposedly "new" threads, but really just disguised with a "new" title, and the content either slightly re-worded, end result= another negative view!

I come on these forums to ponder, to read and to share civilized, friendly conversations with other members, hopefully learn something in the process, and share my enthusiasm for Sub sim gaming with others.....

I fully understand that this particular section is dedicated to Silent Hunter 5 ie the threads will be about Silent Hunter 5......

however what i don't understand is the continued negativity about this "up-and-comer"....

ok you say, you don't understand people's frustrations with the "possible" inclusions of a lot of things that "may" be included in the final release?
Well, i do, in fact i am saturated with all the problems, issues, no, i'm not buying it's, Ubisoft doesn't care....blah blah blah....

I think as i have posted somewhere else previously.....if you don't like it, do your talking with your wallet.......
which, seems like many of you are intending to do.....i respect that, just like people's opinions, however what i do not respect is, the continual negativity.......ok, so you don't like it? fine, no problem, but seriously, how many times do i need to be told that Silent Hunter 5 will fail?
Seriously.......:salute:

[Onkel Neal]

The online-all-the-time and drop-anytime DRM topic is new and significant, so for the time being multiple threads is fine. After a while, I'm sure everyone will agree that the topic can be discussed in a few threads.

I do smile, though, through all the posts about this, that no one ever damns the pirates, both pro and casual. :)

[Hitman]

Well speaking seriously it would be nice if the anti-DRM crowd could manage not to turn every single thread into a DRM bitching session.

Hey I think it's fair: Since SH5 needs permanent DRM connection to play the game, we also need permanent DRM critizism while connected to SH5 forums. :rotfl2:

[stoneys-nutz]

Whilst i sympathise with you about the DRM issue creeping in to a lot of posts, it does point to the strength of feeling this piece of added software is generating, and if it makes UBI take a second look at this, then it will have been worth it.
Thats my two bobs worth. :salute:

[KL-alfman]

Hey I think it's fair: Since SH5 needs permanent DRM connection to play the game, we also need permanent DRM critizism while connected to SH5 forums. :rotfl2:


and for many it's the only reason to stay away from ordering SH5 atm. this a sad thing cause expectation and anticipation were great on my side ..... :cry:

[IanC]

We're just human. Let us vent.

[Brag]

The DRMs of doom are drumming :haha::haha:

[zulus]

There wouldn't be that much negative posts about SH5 or DRM if everyone agreed with nonsences DRM offers. But no somebody has to come up with the ideas like: "Hey DRM is good for you, your gamesaves will get even safer in UBI's servers" these lines just kills me. Heck nor I want this feature nor I need it. My PC is my castle and if I buy a game I want to have it ALL in my pc, without these internet conection conditions as a must to play career! It has been stupid idea from the very begining of it and will remain untill it dies. And everyone with common sense are able to realize that.
Moreover they think DRM provides a huge services like autoupdates! Wow what an achievement, like users couldn;t find and download patches themselves from ubi webpage. Again useless service IMO.

[TDK1044]

Smoke on the horizon, Sir.
What is it?
It looks like a server, Sir. VII class. sinking fast.
Anyone with it?
Stupid people, Sir. Hanging on for dear life with Network cables.
Range to target?
Unable to comply, Sir. That bug isn't fixed yet.
How do we sink it?
Just give it time, Sir. It will sink on its own.

[IanC]

There wouldn't be that much negative posts about SH5 or DRM if everyone agreed with nonsences DRM offers. But no somebody has to come up with the ideas like: "Hey DRM is good for you, your gamesaves will get even safer in UBI's servers" these lines just kills me. Heck nor I want this feature nor I need it. My PC is my castle and if I buy a game I want to have it ALL in my pc, without these internet conection conditions as a must to play career! It has been stupid idea from the very begining of it and will remain untill it dies. And everyone with common sense are able to realize that.
Moreover they think DRM provides a huge services like autoupdates! Wow what an achievement, like users couldn;t find and download patches themselves from ubi webpage. Again useless service IMO.

:agree:

[Egan]

Smoke on the horizon, Sir.
What is it?
It looks like a server, Sir. VII class. sinking fast.
Anyone with it?
Stupid people, Sir. Hanging on for dear life with Network cables.
Range to target?
Unable to comply, Sir. That bug isn't fixed yet.
How do we sink it?
Just give it time, Sir. It will sink on its own.

:D

Lol! I'm putting that on a t-shirt! Best thing I've read all day!

[HundertzehnGustav]

We'r going nowhere until things change. :stare:

How about you head off the the Ubi-forums. Might be your kinda place.


Yep, i ll stay here, untill i see things change.
The Platform is great the marketing seems to suck.

Grmpf

[Lt commander lare]

i agree with all the others we here at subsim are united in our stance on this subject NO Drm and we want offline option back on the table and we are staying put until we get some compensation for this and by the way neal is right the pirates are to blame for this as well as ubisoft but ubisoft also has the power to change things and they will or no buy

lt commander lare

[SteamWake]

Sure take your uncomfortable dissenting voices elsewhere :shifty:

[HundertzehnGustav]

The online-all-the-time and drop-anytime DRM topic is new and significant, so for the time being multiple threads is fine. After a while, I'm sure everyone will agree that the topic can be discussed in a few threads.

I do smile, though, through all the posts about this, that no one ever damns the pirates, both pro and casual. :)


That is because we know that Ubi reads this and they get our cash.

Pirates, to the dum guy like me, are hiding in the masses, and i can not put a name on them.

One name, one Target.

If i knew a group of hackers or crackers or such, i would name them and pull out the verbal Machinegun...

Sux to be ubi.

And, i hope you pardon me, but stuff like nocd cracks, i do not care much about. As an honest user, they add a sense of comfort for me.
People that put the stuff on torrent sites or something, these are the rats and bastards of the gaming world to me.

But, they do not provide me with a game, so why shall i talk about pirates and hackers?

[Nicolas]

I think not, becuase if enough people doens't like this, or not buying because of this, it's good to make noise so they can know a lot disagree with this DRM.

[piri_reis]

Ah :damn:
another blind believer, go on and see it as you please mate.

dont confound online play and drm. drm only means, they will save your data on data servers. like cloud computing. office 2007 uses it, each email account is in the internet etc. cloud computing (means to save your data on internet servers) is savier than saving on your harddrive, which will be killed 2 times a year. cloud computing is the future, google has developed a whole system, which runs your software from internet. no hard disk needed anymore. and remember: they only get your ip, not your name! they can do market research (that is why they are doing this, piracy is an alibi here). remember google: they know everything about you!

[trenken]

Can all the whiners who are not buying SH5 please leave and go back to the SH3 and SH4 forums you really are polluting the threads in here.

I bet half of you are hypocrites and will buy the game and are simply jumping on the anti-drm bandwagon.

Yes DRM sucks - but all I'm interested in at the moment is the excitement of what looks to be a an amazing leap forward in Submarine simulations and all I want to do is share that with like minded individuals who are as excited as I am. I always thought that was what subsim.com was all about.

The announced modding features virtually mean we are not a million miles from having what looks like a full SDK. Should we not be excited about this?

If you aren't buying it then move along - you don't need to be here.

Failing that can Neil create a forum called SH5 - Anti-DRM campaign. And leave the rest of us to look forward to this game in peace.

Much agreed. Gaming is changing, technology is changing. I dont know a single person that does not have a constant connection to the internet, so all these guys are fighting against a change that is going to happen anyway just because they are stuck in the past. They'll just be left in the dust so its noone's problem but their own.

Same as people did that loved record albums, or was heavily invested in VHS, or whatever else that was eventually killed off. Offline games are going away now, and ive never played a DRM game I didnt love, so Im very excited about SH5, and im sick of these people unwilling to jump on board the train of technology (which stops for noone) and flooding this board with this nonsense.

I cant even come here and casually read some topics about this game without tons of people :wah: about DRM. Who does that? Isnt it better to just roll with the changes than to try to fight it, its always a losing battle when it comes to this stuff. People will never learn. They're just going to end up those people in vitage gaming shops still looking for offline games, just like all those dudes still searching for records.

[FIREWALL]

Can all the whiners who are not buying SH5 please leave and go back to the SH3 and SH4 forums you really are polluting the threads in here.

I bet half of you are hypocrites and will buy the game and are simply jumping on the anti-drm bandwagon.

Yes DRM sucks - but all I'm interested in at the moment is the excitement of what looks to be a an amazing leap forward in Submarine simulations and all I want to do is share that with like minded individuals who are as excited as I am. I always thought that was what subsim.com was all about.

The announced modding features virtually mean we are not a million miles from having what looks like a full SDK. Should we not be excited about this?

If you aren't buying it then move along - you don't need to be here.

Failing that can Neil create a forum called SH5 - Anti-DRM campaign. And leave the rest of us to look forward to this game in peace.



Things slow over at the UBI offices ? :haha:

Trolling over here isn't going to help matters.

[trenken]

Things slow over at the UBI offices ? :haha:

Trolling over here isn't going to help matters.

Having an opinion that differs than yours is not trolling, just so you know.

[tater]

Mobile devices are really the latest tech, you're the one tied to a land-line net connection model that you apparently "love."

I neither love nor hate DRM as a basic idea. This particular scheme that disallows mobile devices (laptops in this case) is regressive technologically, not progressive. Theoretically I'm on the net all the time via 3GS on the iPhone. In "Realityland™" it's not terribly consistent to put it very diplomatically.

The trivial addition of an "offline" mode of play would be a very sensible addition.

All games require a net connection NOW if you wish patches, etc (DLing a multi-hundred meg patch with dial-up is not an option). So that's not even on the table.

I think it's funny that the "pro" side here is against even a minor improvement to the DRM that would allow offline play EVER in the name of somehow being modern and progressive. A more constraining model is the wave of the future, not a less physically constrained model?

[IanC]

Much agreed. Gaming is changing, technology is changing. I dont know a single person that does not have a constant connection to the internet, so all these guys are fighting against a change that is going to happen anyway just because they are stuck in the past. They'll just be left in the dust so its noone's problem but their own.

Same as people did that loved record albums, or was heavily invested in VHS, or whatever else that was eventually killed off. Offline games are going away now, and ive never played a DRM game I didnt love, so Im very excited about SH5, and im sick of these people unwilling to jump on board the train of technology (which stops for noone) and flooding this board with this nonsense.

I cant even come here and casually read some topics about this game without tons of people :wah: about DRM. Who does that? Isnt it better to just roll with the changes than to try to fight it, its always a losing battle when it comes to this stuff. People will never learn. They're just going to end up those people in vitage gaming shops still looking for offline games, just like all those dudes still searching for records.

There is so many things wrong with your post, I don't even know where to start.
I guess I'll just take this quote Isnt it better to just roll with the changes than to try to fight it, its always a losing battle when it comes to this stuff.
No it's not better to just roll with the changes (or roll over) if those changes are wrong (plz don't make me list you the reasons why DRM is wrong/bad idea). It is always possible to make a big company make changes if enough people voice their objections.

[TDK1044]

Don't worry. Ubisoft's history with the Silent Hunter series shows us that this will be a technical disaster from day one. :)

[guynoir]

Much agreed. Gaming is changing, technology is changing. I dont know a single person that does not have a constant connection to the internet, so all these guys are fighting against a change that is going to happen anyway just because they are stuck in the past. They'll just be left in the dust so its noone's problem but their own.
...
Isnt it better to just roll with the changes than to try to fight it, its always a losing battle when it comes to this stuff.

It sounds like you're having a hard time stepping out of your own shoes... "I don't know a single broadband-less person personally therefore they don't exist!"

Only something like ~63% of Americans have broadband... That doesn't sound like "everyone" to me.

As for rolling with the changes, it's hard for some to do that when they live in an area without access to a constant internet connection. Are you saying that they should sell their house and move? That's beyond drastic... It's easy to get mad about a type of DRM that, in the name of stopping piracy, completely denies you the ability to play a game that you've been excited about--especially if that DRM doesn't really offer anything positive otherwise...

[FIREWALL]

It sounds like you're having a hard time stepping out of your own shoes... "I don't know a single broadband-less person personally therefore they don't exist!"

Only something like ~63% of Americans have broadband... That doesn't sound like "everyone" to me.

As for rolling with the changes, it's hard for some to do that when they live in an area without access to a constant internet connection. Are you saying that they should sell their house and move? That's beyond drastic... It's easy to get mad about a type of DRM that, in the name of stopping piracy, completely denies you the ability to play a game that you've been excited about--especially if that DRM doesn't really offer anything positive otherwise...

Good post :up: Btw you just ruined a theory I had. :haha:

[Mikhayl]

Basically Trenken is just as out of touch with reality as Ubi marketing is. If the paying customers don't follow that "change" then it will die, period. And Trenken can cry all he wants about it :)

[msalama]

If you aren't buying it then move along - you don't need to be here.

* raises hand timidly *

Eh... and how about us fencesitters?

[Jimbuna]

Smoke on the horizon, Sir.
What is it?
It looks like a server, Sir. VII class. sinking fast.
Anyone with it?
Stupid people, Sir. Hanging on for dear life with Network cables.
Range to target?
Unable to comply, Sir. That bug isn't fixed yet.
How do we sink it?
Just give it time, Sir. It will sink on its own.

Made me drop my popcorn :rotfl2:


http://img396.imageshack.us/img396/6942/popcorncowtx0.gif

[catar M]

the whole "casual gamer group" isnt interested in drm in or not. means: subsimmers are in the minority group
I don't think "casual PC gamer" exists . Casual gamers buy consols which cost 1/4 less then average PC. To run today's games you need PC worth around $2000 AUD and anyone who spends that much money is not casual gamer.we talk subsims which is not a big hit with "casual" gamers as you call then. Casual gamers want games like COD MW 2 easy shoot them up they don't want to spent time to learn to play the sim to it's full potential. My 2c worth

[trenken]

Basically Trenken is just as out of touch with reality as Ubi marketing is. If the paying customers don't follow that "change" then it will die, period. And Trenken can cry all he wants about it :)

Yeah im pretty sure if you're here complaining about having to play a game online, I think you're the one out of touch.

If Im out of touch, please explain to me why the entire gaming industry is transitioning to online? Good luck coming up with an excuse for that one.

You can make posts about this all day, online is where it's all heading. You wont change that.

[Kapitan_Phillips]

Well to be fair, we havent really be drowning in new screens, videos, gameplay, any positive stuff, really, have we. First we discover we can only go to 1943, then there's only one class of U-Boat, now this DRM asscheese.

I dont blame people for firing up the torches and sharpening the pitchforks. The horizon smells like a Gordon Brown scale shafting.

[mookiemookie]

Basically Trenken is just as out of touch with reality as Ubi marketing is. If the paying customers don't follow that "change" then it will die, period. And Trenken can cry all he wants about it :)

He's so myopic that he has it backwards. Customers dictate the market, not producers. And he thinks customers have no voice. Good luck with that line of thinking, buddy.

[FIREWALL]

Yeah im pretty sure if you're here complaining about having to play a game online, I think you're the one out of touch.

If Im out of touch, please explain to me why the entire gaming industry is transitioning to online? Good luck coming up with an excuse for that one.

You can make posts about this all day, online is where it's all heading. You wont change that.

And this was brought to you by UBISOFT

[trenken]

There is so many things wrong with your post, I don't even know where to start.


To you I suppose, since you dont want to deal with the reality of the situation. This isnt something just ubi is doing, its happening everywhere, on both PC and consoles.

[ETR3(SS)]

One question Trenken. But first this statement, I understand that you have an opinion and are entitled to it. Now the question. Why, when your views are challenged with facts, do you refuse to debate your position?:06:

[trenken]

He's so myopic that he has it backwards. Customers dictate the market, not producers. And he thinks customers have no voice. Good luck with that line of thinking, buddy.

K, well, there is still almost half the country on dial up, yet you cannot possibly play a modern game on it. Explain that one to me.

Technology improves, you roll with it or get left behind. It's ALWAYS been that way.

If you do not want to play games on broadband or do not have a constant connection, we'll just see where that leads you.

[FIREWALL]

One question Trenken. But first this statement, I understand that you have an opinion and are entitled to it. Now the question. Why, when your views are challenged with facts, do you refuse to debate your position?:06:


His position is a Ubisoft Damage Control employee. :haha:

[trenken]

One question Trenken. But first this statement, I understand that you have an opinion and are entitled to it. Now the question. Why, when your views are challenged with facts, do you refuse to debate your position?:06:

What facts? Someone said only 60% of the country is on broadband, well please explain to me why you cannot play games on dial up anymore?

Those people are being left behind, just as those are now that do not want to play games that require a constant connection.

You can fight it all day, you'll be left going back to SH3 while the rest of us get to enjoy every game that comes out without limitation.

[Kapitan_Phillips]

I'm suprised at the fact that you've been registered here for 4 years, yet dont know just how much of an influence this community actually has. I'm sure one of our esteemed historians will explain about SH3's Dynamic Campaign.

[IanC]

trenken, news flash. Just because something is new, doesn't mean it's better.

[mookiemookie]

while the rest of us get to enjoy every game that comes out without limitation.
Except for when the server goes down. Or when there's a power outage. Or when your travelling on a plane/train. Or when the company decides not to support that game anymore. Or when you move into an area without good broadband service. But other than that, without limitation. :har:

[guynoir]

Good post :up: Btw you just ruined a theory I had. :haha:

Errr, what theory is that? :hmmm:

It's not the 'trenken sees reason and empathizes with his fellow simmers' theory is it? ...because I'm afraid I have some sad news for you. :haha:

[Kapitan_Phillips]

Come on guys, no need to get spiteful. The Doctor has spoken :smug:

[trenken]

Once again stubborn people here unwilling to let someone have an opinion. Ive played 4 DRM games, all work just fine for me.

You're anti-DRM, well thats fine by me, you can also fight against broadband, HD, whatever else you dont want to adopt, you're allowed to feel that way. There's a lot of things I havent yet adopted, but I dont expect the world to wait for me to get on board. Ill just stay behind and live with it. Same thing is happening here. You guys want technology to just go on hold for you.

Just as you are allowed to be against it, I am allowed to actually be in favor of DRM. There's a lot I like about it, and you're just going to have to live with that. You have your opinion, I have mine, stop wasting time attacking me for it.

[TDK1044]

Only the Publisher benefits from the end user being forced to be connected to their servers. And wait until the first Publisher calls for a $5 monthly fee once the online DRM trend is established. Undoubtedly, those here that will forgive this publisher anything because they are the only one producing subsims will then be saying "Come on. It's $5. Everyone can afford that. The Publisher can't afford to give us server access for free."

The only justification for online access is multi player. :)

[ETR3(SS)]

Fact about broadband users in the US.


http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1249824&postcount=581


Here's a chance I gave you to support or debunk your stance:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1249620&postcount=559

I gave you a chance again to debate:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1249753&postcount=567

You chose not to take it, so I filled in with facts:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1249869&postcount=591


The reason you are being singled out like you are is because you refuse to debate your position and instead say the same thing over and over.

[trenken]

Only the Publisher benefits from the end user being forced to be connected to their servers.

Thats your opinion. Many of us that own some DRM games have found some nice advantages to it. For me the primary one would be I love not having my save files on my machine. They are protected on a server so that if my machine decides to meltdown on me, I dont look months or years of progress. Big fan of that.

[FIREWALL]

Errr, what theory is that? :hmmm:

It's not the 'trenken sees reason and empathizes with his fellow simmers' theory is it? ...because I'm afraid I have some sad news for you. :haha:


No guynoir :DL It's just that it seems Ubisoft Moles seem to come to the surface just before a release without any activity on this site (0 dl ) or any later game posts.

Then disappear until next release.

I Don't see you as one of them. :salute:

[trenken]

The reason you are being singled out like you are is because you refuse to debate your position and instead say the same thing over and over.

Excuse me? Ive debated it, you just dont like what I have to say so you're pretending im not adressing it, which is very mature by the way.

Did I not just say to you regardless of what you want to post about how few people you say are on broadband, why are there next to no modern games you can play on dial up?

There are millions of people that love records and own record players, why cant I find any in stores anymore?

I rest my case.

[Kremmen]

Anyone remember the Sony rootkit affair ?
People starting ranting about that and Sony backed down then offered an exchange on the infected cd's and a software removal tool to get rid of the rootkit.
I think why the DRM thing keeps coming up is because (certainly we here are really passionate about subsims) and we were really looking forward to the release of SH5 only to be hit with these draconian demands just to play the game.So a mixture of anger and disappointment gets vented such is the depths of peoples feelings on this issue.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" .
--Edmund Burke

Maybe that quote's a bit extreme in this case :haha:,but if we don't tell these companies that we will not stand for these impositions they will continue to treat us as criminals,as in 'WE do not trust you with our product,please proceed to hoop A....NOW JUMP'

[IanC]

Did I not just say to you regardless of what you want to post about how few people you say are on broadband, why are there next to no modern games you can play on dial up?

There are millions of people that love records and own record players, why cant I find any in stores anymore?

I rest my case.

Most games are offline single player games, what are you talking about.

[trenken]

Im not here to get into another debate about DRM. I came into this thread to agree that its flooding the board. So you dont like DRM and wont buy SH5, why are you here then? Let those of us that want to talk some positivity about the game do so in peace.

[Iron Budokan]

I for one am NOT going to be quiet about this or have my voice silenced.

So. Yeah. You'll have to deal with that, I'm afraid. :DL

[TDK1044]

Once again stubborn people here unwilling to let someone have an opinion. Ive played 4 DRM games, all work just fine for me.

You're anti-DRM, well thats fine by me, you can also fight against broadband, HD, whatever else you dont want to adopt, you're allowed to feel that way.

I disagree. I went from dial up to High Speed because I could then access, download and manipulate the same websites I was visiting anyway much faster. The benefit was to me, not to my internet provider.

Same goes for HD. I went from an SD DVR to an HD DVR because of the massive increase in picture and audio quality that came with it. Again, the benefit was mine not DirecTVs.

Nobody is trying to hold back the waves of advancement, which is your constant attack on people like me, but to have to be connected to a Ubisoft server in order to play the latest installment in the Silent Hunter series is utter nonsense.

What gain do you think you'll get by playing this game online? I have never had a corrupted save or a hard drive crash on any system I've owned, so what do I gain by being connected to a Ubisoft server?

If Ubisoft wants to go the online route...fine...put the whole game on your servers and charge people a monthly fee to set up an online account and play the game online with no software loaded on their computers that you've charged them $49 for.

[mookiemookie]

There are millions of people that love records and own record players, why cant I find any in stores anymore?


And the maker of Segway scooters said they would revolutionize the world. Until he got bitchslapped by the voice of the consumer who said "nuh-uh!" See, technology and new stuff for technology and new stuff's sake is not good if there's no DEMAND for it.

And in your example - the overwhelming majority of consumers preferred the benefits conveyed by CDs and tapes. They voted with their wallets and said "THIS IS WHAT WE WANT" and the music industry filled the demand by producing tapes and CDs. You can't find records because the consumer demand is not there for them. The record industry didn't all of a sudden one day say "Well we're going to make CDs now, screw you guys, love it or leave it, suckers." The market demanded it.

You don't seem to get it. Consumer demand is what forces a company's hand, not the whims and dictates of upper management (well, ideally). They respond to what the consumer wants. If the consumer decides that always connected DRM is a bad thing and rejects it by not buying the product, which a cursory glance at the forums here will tell you is the case, then the company will respond to the consumer if they want to stay in business.

For an example of this played out in real life, look no further than the headlines:

It's been 18 months since O'Reilly, the world's largest publisher of tech books, stopped using DRM on its ebooks. In the intervening time, O'Reilly's ebook sales have increased by 104 percent.http://www.boingboing.net/2010/01/22/oreilly-drops-ebook.html

The MARKET dictates what new technology will be, not the producers. And in this case, you're witnessing the market reject the invasive DRM scheme that Ubi has planned.

[cherbert]

Well I for one am getting sick of this place now. If Neil wants to continue to allow this nonsense them I'm gone. I strongly believe he is making a big mistake allowing this to happen in this forum.

Create a DRM discussion forum or restrict discussions to a single topic for god sake!

I really doubt for one second UBI come here - and I really don't think they give a flying *** what you all think. They probably have invested millions in this new technology and as others have said - its the future and there is no going back.

[TDK1044]

Well I for one am getting sick of this place now. If Neil wants to continue to allow this nonsense them I'm gone. I strongly believe he is making a big mistake allowing this to happen in this forum.

Create a DRM discussion forum or restrict discussions to a single topic for god sake!

I really doubt for one second UBI come here - and I really don't think they give a flying *** what you all think. They probably have invested millions in this new technology and as others have said - its the future and there is no going back.

You've made 64 posts here in the 5 years you've been a member. Feel free to join the Ubi Forum. You won't be missed.

[sergei]

I'll post this here because you did not answer it in the other thread.
To be fair, I realise this was not intentional, you were probably overwhelmed with objections at the time.

But the critical thing that makes Steam work is the OFFLINE MODE. You can still play your paid-for games if your connection goes down or is unavailable.

Which is my major problem.
I can understand a publisher (of music, movies, games whatever) asking me to authenticate my ownership of something every now and again. I don't particularly like it, but as a realist I can understand it.
But it is not the same as requiring me to be connected to them the whole time I play my single player game.
Is this really necessary for authentication of ownership?
I don't think it is.

I play a few games that have various forms of DRM.
They are all a pain in the arse to install and activate, but I happily put up with that because that is the way the world has gone.
However: NONE of them insist that I connect permanently via the internet to the company that made the game (or published it, or produced it, whatever).

I understand that some here object to DRM on principal. And good luck arguing with those people. You two are never going to agree.

I don't particularly like DRM, but understand that that is the way things are going to go, so I am going to have to deal with it.

I object to the manner in which it is being implemented, specifically with respect to this game.

You have continually gone on about the benefits of DRM, (which isn't really DRM as I understand it, it is actually cloud computing), yet you have neglected to address the concerns of the many (read that again, MANY), who will have problems with this.

You may be lucky enough to live in 24/7/365 great connection land but more people than you may imagine do not.
I do not doubt your assertion that one day all will be like this: but at the moment this is not so, and those of us unable to participate in this bright future (a lot more than 1% I can assure you), will continue to remind the lucky ones that 24/7/365 is not universal the world over.

Just to remind you:
My issue is NOT with DRM.
It is with the assumption that any gamer who wants to play this game should have a permanent, stable internet connection.

The Game wants me to authenticate online when I install: OK I can live with that.
The Game wants me to authenticate online when I start a new career: Not very happy, but I guess I can do that.
The Game wants me to be online the whole fekkin time I play the single player game: Now I got a problem.

[IanC]

- its the future and there is no going back.

hogwash

[bigboywooly]

Excuse me? Ive debated it, you just dont like what I have to say so you're pretending im not adressing it, which is very mature by the way.

Did I not just say to you regardless of what you want to post about how few people you say are on broadband, why are there next to no modern games you can play on dial up?

There are millions of people that love records and own record players, why cant I find any in stores anymore?

I rest my case.

Vinyl is making a comeback
Not hard to find at all

http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dpopular&field-keywords=vinyl&x=0&y=0 ( quick search as was on that page )

http://hmv.com/hmvweb/navigate.do?ctx=1000;-1;-1;-1;-1&pGroupID=1&pSubGroupID=208

Neither are turntables
Even non usb ones are out there

http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Delectronics&field-keywords=turntable&x=10&y=18

Format



Any Format
Box Set (2,585) (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/search/ref=sr_nr_p_n_binding_browse-b_0?rh=n%3A229816%2Ck%3Avinyl%2Cp_n_binding_browse-bin%3A382534011&bbn=229816&keywords=vinyl&ie=UTF8&qid=1264790049&rnid=382527011)
CD (5,347) (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/search/ref=sr_nr_p_n_binding_browse-b_1?rh=n%3A229816%2Ck%3Avinyl%2Cp_n_binding_browse-bin%3A382528011&bbn=229816&keywords=vinyl&ie=UTF8&qid=1264790049&rnid=382527011)
Cassette (632) (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/search/ref=sr_nr_p_n_binding_browse-b_2?rh=n%3A229816%2Ck%3Avinyl%2Cp_n_binding_browse-bin%3A382533011&bbn=229816&keywords=vinyl&ie=UTF8&qid=1264790049&rnid=382527011)
Compilation (16,382) (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/search/ref=sr_nr_p_n_binding_browse-b_3?rh=n%3A229816%2Ck%3Avinyl%2Cp_n_binding_browse-bin%3A386760011&bbn=229816&keywords=vinyl&ie=UTF8&qid=1264790049&rnid=382527011)
DVD (1) (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/search/ref=sr_nr_p_n_binding_browse-b_4?rh=n%3A229816%2Ck%3Avinyl%2Cp_n_binding_browse-bin%3A382536011&bbn=229816&keywords=vinyl&ie=UTF8&qid=1264790049&rnid=382527011)
DVD Audio (1) (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/search/ref=sr_nr_p_n_binding_browse-b_5?rh=n%3A229816%2Ck%3Avinyl%2Cp_n_binding_browse-bin%3A382544011&bbn=229816&keywords=vinyl&ie=UTF8&qid=1264790049&rnid=382527011)
DualDisc (7) (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/search/ref=sr_nr_p_n_binding_browse-b_6?rh=n%3A229816%2Ck%3Avinyl%2Cp_n_binding_browse-bin%3A382530011&bbn=229816&keywords=vinyl&ie=UTF8&qid=1264790049&rnid=382527011)
SACD (6) (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/search/ref=sr_nr_p_n_binding_browse-b_8?rh=n%3A229816%2Ck%3Avinyl%2Cp_n_binding_browse-bin%3A382529011&bbn=229816&keywords=vinyl&ie=UTF8&qid=1264790049&rnid=382527011)
Vinyl (274,912) <<<<<<<<<<<<<< (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/search/ref=sr_nr_p_n_binding_browse-b_9?rh=n%3A229816%2Ck%3Avinyl%2Cp_n_binding_browse-bin%3A382539011&bbn=229816&keywords=vinyl&ie=UTF8&qid=1264790049&rnid=382527011)

[BootsmanBoof]

As I just found out about the DRM 15 minutes ago, I'll be moving along. You'll never find me post in this sh5 forum again.:salute:

[cherbert]

You've made 64 posts here in the 5 years you've been a member. Feel free to join the Ubi Forum. You won't be missed.

What f**ing relevance is that? I have a life and you don't maybe?

[TDK1044]

What f**ing relevance is that? I have a life and you don't maybe?

The door is that way.

[Rockin Robbins]

The DRM controversy is flooding the board because it SHOULD flood the board. Customers dictate what successful products contain, not producers. The customer always gets what he wants, if not from a brain-dead company that refuses to meet their desires, then from another who rushes in to fill the vacuum and eat the first company's lunch.

That is what Home Depot did to Scotty's and what Lowes did in turn to Home Depot. As each established company decided to run a 100,000 square foot store with two people who flipped hamburgers the previous week (controlling expenses you know!:D), another leaped into the position of helping home self-improvers with the information they needed to do their projects.

If Ubi falls, we won't lose the subsim genre. There may be a hiccup, but we will be served by a company who better understands us. One thing about us that Ubi doesn't seem to understand is that we will only accept DRM if it truly penalizes the pirates and if it does not unnecessarily (in OUR judgment) damage our ability to play the game.

In fact, I would argue that on-line DRM will only be accepted if it significantly enhances the game, if it is rock-solid dependable and if it leaves off-line play available. If they want us to be logged on every minute we play, there better be stuff there we can't live without. That means game enhancement, not being left with a crippled game if you're not on-line.

I believe preordering SH5, especially in the face of the DRM announcement, is plain foolishness. If we have learned anything at all from SH3 and SH4 it is that Ubi has to earn our trust with each successive product. We should buy only after they meet their burden of proof that they have delivered an acceptable product. Shoving money their way based on smoke and mirrors only encourages more shenanigans on their part. How many times do they have to prove that they have no concept of customer needs and desires before we treat them accordingly?

But running in circles screaming and shouting isn't required yet. We have nothing but smoke and mirrors to evaluate. I'm waiting and seeing what is happening here. When the game comes out, I'll pull the arrows out of the "brave" pioneers and ask them what manner of Indians had such good aim. My game strategy has always been to purchase the game from one of the dying pioneers on eBay for cheap if I'm interested in taking a chance.

If this is not possible due to DRM restrictions I most likely will not be purchasing SH5 ever. I'm perfectly happy with SH4 and see no reason to "upgrade" without a compelling reason. SH5 is less and less compelling with each passing day.

As far as leaving Subsim because I choose to discuss DRM, my sentiments would have me banned from Subsim, which would meet the OP's desire. Therefore I will act in my own best interests and continue to infest this and other threads about DRM.

Subsim is not a democracy, it is a kingdom. The King sets the rules and we either follow them or aren't welcome here. Fortunately, we have a good king!

[karamazovnew]

Maybe we shouldn't use the word DRM. We've been using games with DRM for a looong time. I want DRM for SH5. I don't want OSP :D SO Ubi, please bring back Starforce :har:

[tater]

Thats your opinion. Many of us that own some DRM games have found some nice advantages to it. For me the primary one would be I love not having my save files on my machine. They are protected on a server so that if my machine decides to meltdown on me, I dont look months or years of progress. Big fan of that.

So the only concrete benefit is offsite save game protection?

You're on a 100% stable broadband connection, and you do not already back your entire machine up offsite?

My 1.5MB DSL connection (best I can get this far from a CO, and no cable up here in the foothills) allows me to back my machines up offsite. If my PC blows up, I have all my save games on a server someplace (india?) where my backup is. If you back up only online DRM games and not real data, wow, just wow. If you do back your machine(s) up offsite, the DRM benefit is entirely moot since you already back your save games up offsite without it—unless it's to play with another machine someplace else, but that implies the backwards technology of using a laptop (backwards cause it is sometimes not connected to the net as all good computers are).

So, now that offsite save games is entirely eliminated as something of unique value, what is the next benefit you glean?

[codmander]

that would be captain whiner:arrgh!: dang greenhorn
probly ubi employee

[Kapitan_Phillips]

SO Ubi, please bring back Starforce :har:

...where's..

...my..

...gun..

;)

[guynoir]

No guynoir :DL It's just that it seems Ubisoft Moles seem to come to the surface just before a release without any activity on this site (0 dl ) or any later game posts.

Then disappear until next release.

I Don't see you as one of them. :salute:

Haha, well... as you can see, it takes a lot to bring me out of the woodwork.

As it turns out, Ubisoft's new DRM is "a lot"... :DL

[karamazovnew]

...where's..

...my..

...gun..

;)

I've managed to annoy a Vulcan without making references to his human mother?! That's gotta be a first :yeah:

Just kiddin of course. About Starforce too :salute:

[onelifecrisis]

The MARKET dictates what new technology will be, not the producers. And in this case, you're witnessing the market reject the invasive DRM scheme that Ubi has planned.

All I'm witnessing is a handful of gripes (some of which are justified) and threats (which may or may not be carried out). When the game is released, then we'll see what the market says.

[mookiemookie]

All I'm witnessing is a handful of gripes (some of which are justified) and threats (which may or may not be carried out). When the game is released, then we'll see what the market says.

Very very true. I'm basing that statement purely off of the "will you buy SH5?" poll. Unscientific, sure, but it's all I have. I wonder how many people will actually stick to their decision. Especially if the game is better than expected.

[tater]

Since my time is valuable to me, if there was a server side problem on the Ubi side that prevented me from enjoying my limited sim time under the OSP scheme, to I get reimbursed? Perhaps credits towards another game since the only reason in this scenario I cannot play is a failure on the part of Ubi?

I assume that my agreements with outfits like CRS (ww2ol) say that my monthly charges do not guarantee I can always play, that there might be server issues. None the less, I bet if there were a lengthy outage we'd be credited with extra time (days added to our subscription).

I know for a fact this has happened to me. Way back when, WarBirds had a failure that kept us offline for a while (days) and we were indeed credited with free days since we paid monthly, and lost a chunk of our paid time.


tater

PS:
Very very true. I'm basing that statement purely off of the "will you buy SH5?" poll. Unscientific, sure, but it's all I have. I wonder how many people will actually stick to their decision. Especially if the game is better than expected.

I'll stick with mine, it will be easy since I only want to see u-boats as oil slicks after being sunk, I was only thinking of buying to support the devs in anticipation of one I would actually play (PTO).

[guynoir]

I wonder how many people will actually stick to their decision. Especially if the game is better than expected.

You know... I had the chance to test that theory out when Blackshark came out. So far I haven't bought it either even though I was just as excited about it as I was for SHV, so I'll probably stick to my guns this time around too.

I bet a good chunk of others will too...

[bigboywooly]

I'll stick with mine, it will be easy since I only want to see u-boats as oil slicks after being sunk, I was only thinking of buying to support the devs in anticipation of one I would actually play (PTO).

Yeah must admit is a simpler decision for some
I bought SH4 to support the devs as obv prefer the ATO - before the addon was first mooted
If SH4 had this OSP then would have been a simple decision for me also
Not to buy

So its a bit of a toughie

The part campaign I can live with as can fix that
The part type 7 class can maybe live with ( as I doubt there is a VIID or F ) as I prefer the type 9
No doubt the others will be DLC
Tis the OSP which hurts and is the decider NOT to buy till either removed in a few months OR there becomes a " Way " around being online

[Kapitan_Phillips]

I've managed to annoy a Vulcan without making references to his human mother?! That's gotta be a first :yeah:

Just kiddin of course. About Starforce too :salute:


:har: Phasers at dawn, sir!

[AVGWarhawk]

:har: Phasers at dawn, sir!

Damn it Jim! We are dealing with human emotions!

[Rip]

Except for when the server goes down. Or when there's a power outage. Or when your travelling on a plane/train. Or when the company decides not to support that game anymore. Or when you move into an area without good broadband service. But other than that, without limitation. :har:


Or when a hurricane comes through your area. **** half of the southeat was without reliable internet for weeks after Katrina. I didn't even have electricity but played a lot of SH3 thanks to a generator.:D

[karamazovnew]

:har: Phasers at dawn, sir!

Make it so...

[Rip]

Thats your opinion. Many of us that own some DRM games have found some nice advantages to it. For me the primary one would be I love not having my save files on my machine. They are protected on a server so that if my machine decides to meltdown on me, I dont look months or years of progress. Big fan of that.

So then why not a choice to save them online or not. Maybe I hate my save games and I want them to get deleted by accident. My HDD has proven MUCH more reliable than my internet connection and I would bet a stack of hundreds yours is as well.

How many times has your HDD failed? How about your internet?

[Rip]

Excuse me? Ive debated it, you just dont like what I have to say so you're pretending im not adressing it, which is very mature by the way.

Did I not just say to you regardless of what you want to post about how few people you say are on broadband, why are there next to no modern games you can play on dial up?

There are millions of people that love records and own record players, why cant I find any in stores anymore?

I rest my case.

So how come no one is forcing all music to only be playable while connected to the internet?

[Rip]

Well I for one am getting sick of this place now. If Neil wants to continue to allow this nonsense them I'm gone. I strongly believe he is making a big mistake allowing this to happen in this forum.

Create a DRM discussion forum or restrict discussions to a single topic for god sake!

I really doubt for one second UBI come here - and I really don't think they give a flying *** what you all think. They probably have invested millions in this new technology and as others have said - its the future and there is no going back.


We will miss your 64 posts. Not that I recall ever reading one.

[Rip]

Maybe we shouldn't use the word DRM. We've been using games with DRM for a looong time. I want DRM for SH5. I don't want OSP :D SO Ubi, please bring back Starforce :har:

Sad to say but I too would prefer Starforce. At least I could install it in a VM or something and at least run it offline.

[GlobalExplorer]

The forum is moving in a very peculiar direction, people now post these threads to be in the center of attention.

[HundertzehnGustav]

Or to get a good laugh, between the blows they feel have been/are/will be dealt to their dreams of a SHIII 2.0

[Platapus]

I dont know a single person that does not have a constant connection to the internet,


You are assuming that people only have one computer. I happen to have two in my home office. One is hooked up to the internets tubes and the other one (my game playing computer) is not.

So yes, I do have constant connection, just not on my gaming system.

I doubt I am the only one with two computers, one for internet and one for gaming.

[Webster]

"what if DRM works"

ok lets go with the fantasy that it will work perfectly as planned and UBI servers are never busy or overloaded and never need service or repair or break down.

this means only people from big cities can play the game because nobody else has the reliable stable internet service the game manufacturers think we do.

of these big cities many ISP will throttle your internet useage and start charging exorbinant premiums on all data transfers after a certain limit is reached. these fees can be as bad as those 900 number phone lines i am told.

so you figure if this thing works as planned and you eliminate ANY possible sales to rural or small towns and completely forget anything outside the cities. now how many customers did you just exclude from buying your games even if they want it as bad as an alcoholic wants a bottle.

but thats only if DRM works perfectly exactly the way its supposed to


oh, and lets say you do prevent any pirates from pirating the game but you just eliminated your customers from buying it too

[Onkel Neal]

You've made 64 posts here in the 5 years you've been a member. Feel free to join the Ubi Forum. You won't be missed.

Be nice :-?

[Subnuts]

Can all the whiners who are not buying SH5 please leave and go back to the SH3 and SH4 forums you really are polluting the threads in here.


Another lame "put up or shut up" post. :zzz:

[Jimbuna]

Make it so...


http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/4782/makeitso776665.jpg

[karamazovnew]

It's not a coincidence Jim...

Actually, the only problem of Voyager, which is by far my favorite Star Trek series, is that it doesn't have any worthy quote. "Please state the nature of the medical emergency" just isn't the same as "He's dead, Jim".

[John Channing]

I like the idea of DRM. In fact I love it!

JCC

[Méo]

I do smile, though, through all the posts about this, that no one ever damns the pirates, both pro and casual. :)

My guess is that most of people here got much more sympathy for pirates than for Ubisoft. :hmmm:

The problem is that pirates don't create submarine simulations. :-?

[HundertzehnGustav]

My guess is that most of people here got much more sympathy for pirates than for Ubisoft. :hmmm:

Hmmmm... in a few cases "some" of their work is... ehm... "useful"
but most of the things these people doi just turns me off.

[Thomen]

I must have a deja vu or something.. :hmmm:

Maybe I should just repost everything from the other thread..

@Trenken

With all due respect, your opinion is very much welcome here. ;)


If you care to take a look, some of the main points in the exchanges yesterday and the day before were because of:

a. the arguments you made, which when proven faulty or flawed you did not even wanted discuss, but outright dismissed or ignored arguments against them

b. your attitude towards the other members here

c. your absolute dismissal of other peoples opinion. Regardless of circumstances, arguments or facts

and plus some other points.

You want to buy SH5 as it is and you support such a DRM, sorry OSP: Hat's up to you. :up:

But do not talk down to people who do not support such a scheme and be prepared to defend your arguments if you start or participate in a discussion.

Furthermore, I advice that you might want to think about your wording a bit. I just looked over at the ubi forums, and noticed you show the same attitude and receive the same reception as you got here. So, it seems it is hardly just our fault alone for what happened. :shifty:

Sorry, that had to be said.. imo, of course

[KL-alfman]

Thats your opinion. Many of us that own some DRM games have found some nice advantages to it. For me the primary one would be I love not having my save files on my machine. They are protected on a server so that if my machine decides to meltdown on me, I dont look months or years of progress. Big fan of that.


hi, trenken, until now I haven't responded to your snotty attitude towards many of the members here, but this got me curious:
do you tell me that you don't own a private back-up-management? sorry to say, but this is soooo 20th-century-ish that I feel only sorry for you. you know, the world is moving, people like you will just left behind, it's just your problem. if you don't like that adapt!
your fight against back-upping your system sucks and smells like dirty old pants.
move on! go with the flow!

[tater]

My guess is that most of people here got much more sympathy for pirates than for Ubisoft. :hmmm:

The problem is that pirates don't create submarine simulations. :-?

I have zero sympathy for thieves. Personally a thief is a thief to me, so I'm fine with doing to them what I'd do to a thief trying to break into my house (I live in the US, and yes, I'd try to drop him on the brick floors so that the blood would be easier to mop up instead of the carpet).

[JScones]

Well I for one am getting sick of this place now. If Neil wants to continue to allow this nonsense them I'm gone. I strongly believe he is making a big mistake allowing this to happen in this forum.
Seeya. :salute:

[Bubblehead1980]

Can all the whiners who are not buying SH5 please leave and go back to the SH3 and SH4 forums you really are polluting the threads in here.

I bet half of you are hypocrites and will buy the game and are simply jumping on the anti-drm bandwagon.

Yes DRM sucks - but all I'm interested in at the moment is the excitement of what looks to be a an amazing leap forward in Submarine simulations and all I want to do is share that with like minded individuals who are as excited as I am. I always thought that was what subsim.com was all about.

The announced modding features virtually mean we are not a million miles from having what looks like a full SDK. Should we not be excited about this?

If you aren't buying it then move along - you don't need to be here.

Failing that can Neil create a forum called SH5 - Anti-DRM campaign. And leave the rest of us to look forward to this game in peace.




Not here to start a fight but Cherbert, your post reminds me of people who just hate to fight for anything at all, so are willing to take whatever someone sends your way, even if it violates your rights.

Most of us are upset about DRM and are making noise with legitimate arguments to stop this crap being shoved down our throats by UBI.Ever hear the give an inch, they will take a mile? Well this is true in many things in life an absolutely true here.Say we all just stop the so called "whining", bent over and took this with a smile, well UBI would say okay they like it and everything they make will be DRM.

Even though I prefer fleetboats I planned to purchase SH 5, give it a try and support the franchise, so UBI has incentive to make a SH 6 and take us back to the PTO with all the improvements of SH 5 such as a fully modeled sub etc.

For me and many, it boils down to the principle of the matter, FREEDOM to use the product I purchased with my own money the way I want it.Years later if I decided to sell the game to someone else because I am finished with it, I should be able to without any BS from the people who long ago got my money. Grievances can be aired on any forum in any thread when responding, if one does not like it, much like violence and sex on TV, change the channel meaning go to a different forum.End of story, have a nice day.

[martes86]

you are against it, most people arent.

Are you serious? Do you have facts or real data sources to say that??
Because this system is impopular for some reasons. Impopular means that the majority don't like it, which I conclude from all the reading I've been doing lately.

While they might be clouding a little too many threads, I think it's fair they voice their anger for some bad decision of those that, in exchange for our money, should be providing a quality service. Unless you think we're a bunch of morons, and that we should all settle down for crappy or unlikeable stuff.

Cheers

[Turbografx]

conclusion: please stop dashing the forum with your complains. take one thread for this and stop changing each thread to a drm discussion. you are against it, most people arent.

Negative.

76% say they aren't going to get it at all as long as it has OSP DRM, 13% say they will wait and see. Only 11% are going to buy anyway.

[Bubblehead1980]

Most are for DRM? you are kidding I hope.

kind of like a certain american political party saying most citizens are for govt run healthcare when pretty much every poll shows we are NOT.Some people just are not in touch with reality because it does not suite their opinion or agenda.

Not starting a political discussion, just pointing out how how some chose to live in their own reality.

[cherbert]

Not here to start a fight but Cherbert, your post reminds me of people who just hate to fight for anything at all, so are willing to take whatever someone sends your way, even if it violates your rights.

Most of us are upset about DRM and are making noise with legitimate arguments to stop this crap being shoved down our throats by UBI.Ever hear the give an inch, they will take a mile? Well this is true in many things in life an absolutely true here.Say we all just stop the so called "whining", bent over and took this with a smile, well UBI would say okay they like it and everything they make will be DRM.

Even though I prefer fleetboats I planned to purchase SH 5, give it a try and support the franchise, so UBI has incentive to make a SH 6 and take us back to the PTO with all the improvements of SH 5 such as a fully modeled sub etc.

For me and many, it boils down to the principle of the matter, FREEDOM to use the product I purchased with my own money the way I want it.Years later if I decided to sell the game to someone else because I am finished with it, I should be able to without any BS from the people who long ago got my money. Grievances can be aired on any forum in any thread when responding, if one does not like it, much like violence and sex on TV, change the channel meaning go to a different forum.End of story, have a nice day.

I see no reason to fight it because I see it as being the future of things and not worth fighting.

Internet speeds are increasing so much that soon you will be able to download or watch pretty much anything on-demand. The gaming industry is going the same way. All these games companies are now reduced to a few mega corporations. Their sole interest is in making money and preventing piracy.

It may seem like its a long way off but its not really - once most things are available on-demand through various channels people will slowly stop buying DVD's and Blu-ray films because they know its on tap when they need it.

I'm all for wanting to own my own copy of a blu-ray or dvd movie. I love to hold a CD in my hand. I love to have a copy of SH3 and SH4 sitting on my shelf in a neat row with all my other purchased games. But the fact is the times are changing - I'm just not bothered about fighting it. I use Steam - I use video on demand services - I use XBOX Live - I understand this on-line to use economy, I haven't been let down by it. I play lots of MMO's - Its become the norm for many people.

I bet you this year you will see Apple announce a one flat fee for iTunes for all the music you want. I bet you need to be connected to hear your music.

I do understand there are people who don't have internet - I do understand there are people who have very poor internet. I'm not dismissing these people - but the mega corporations obviously are. I see and understand your passion for fighting them. And I hope you succeed.

Many fights have been won both here and elsewhere on the internet - but every year that goes by the fights becomes more impossible as these greedy companies get bigger and more focused on the numbers.

Lets face it, SH5 was clearly designed from the ground up to be accessible to the masses. This fact makes us lot here insignificant - especially if there is a plan to release this on XBOX. We made a difference with SH3 dynamic campaign mainly because things were different back then.

However, I apologise if my original post was a bit harsh - my main message was meant to be please stop polluting the DRM issue all over the forum. And I was starting to feel passionate that we had all lost sight in this potentially great simulation due to hit the shelves.

It doesn't excuse some of you anti-DRM people from sarcastic replies and nasty comments. So bloody what if I have only made 64 posts? I have read hundreds of thousands and donated a few times to access the download here. I have always been a keen visitor and supporter. I don't expect to be jumped on just because I don't post regularly. I bet there are lots of other people on here who just come to read and occasionally chip in. Doesn't mean they are not a valued member of the subsim community. Neil used to be quite strict about the atmosphere here - seems he doesn't care anymore.

(Post 66 - Am I worthy yet or do I need a few more thousand?)

[IanC]

cherbert you keep talking about "on-demand" and "it's the future"... how much is getting chained to Ubi servers to play a single player game, 'on-demand' by anybody? Masses or expert simmers. Nobody wants it, nobody likes it. Your whole argument doesn't stand up, sorry.
DRM/OSP whatever it's called, is not the future, it's a mistake. Like Windows Millenium or The Godfather Part 3.

[Thomen]

Like Windows Millenium or The Godfather Part 3.

:haha:

[Onkel Neal]

IIt doesn't excuse some of you anti-DRM people from sarcastic replies and nasty comments. So bloody what if I have only made 64 posts? I have read hundreds of thousands and donated a few times to access the download here. I have always been a keen visitor and supporter. I don't expect to be jumped on just because I don't post regularly. I bet there are lots of other people on here who just come to read and occasionally chip in. Doesn't mean they are not a valued member of the subsim community. Neil used to be quite strict about the atmosphere here - seems he doesn't care anymore.



I still care. Considering the situation, I think the atmosphere is still acceptable. I, Webs, and Takeda have been spending a lot of time and energy working with people in these discussions with minimal interference and discplinary action, to maintain a civil atmosphere. You were jumped on because 1. You threw down a pretty provacative position ;) and 2. there is some kind of internet herd mentality that dominates most people and compels them to respond with ever more harshness: I diagree with him and most people disagree with him--pile on!" :shifty:

But I think you will find most people here will shake hands and walk away in the end. :yep:

[Rip]

I see no reason to fight it because I see it as being the future of things and not worth fighting.

Internet speeds are increasing so much that soon you will be able to download or watch pretty much anything on-demand. The gaming industry is going the same way. All these games companies are now reduced to a few mega corporations. Their sole interest is in making money and preventing piracy.

It may seem like its a long way off but its not really - once most things are available on-demand through various channels people will slowly stop buying DVD's and Blu-ray films because they know its on tap when they need it.

I'm all for wanting to own my own copy of a blu-ray or dvd movie. I love to hold a CD in my hand. I love to have a copy of SH3 and SH4 sitting on my shelf in a neat row with all my other purchased games. But the fact is the times are changing - I'm just not bothered about fighting it. I use Steam - I use video on demand services - I use XBOX Live - I understand this on-line to use economy, I haven't been let down by it. I play lots of MMO's - Its become the norm for many people.

I bet you this year you will see Apple announce a one flat fee for iTunes for all the music you want. I bet you need to be connected to hear your music.

I do understand there are people who don't have internet - I do understand there are people who have very poor internet. I'm not dismissing these people - but the mega corporations obviously are. I see and understand your passion for fighting them. And I hope you succeed.

Many fights have been won both here and elsewhere on the internet - but every year that goes by the fights becomes more impossible as these greedy companies get bigger and more focused on the numbers.

Lets face it, SH5 was clearly designed from the ground up to be accessible to the masses. This fact makes us lot here insignificant - especially if there is a plan to release this on XBOX. We made a difference with SH3 dynamic campaign mainly because things were different back then.

However, I apologise if my original post was a bit harsh - my main message was meant to be please stop polluting the DRM issue all over the forum. And I was starting to feel passionate that we had all lost sight in this potentially great simulation due to hit the shelves.

It doesn't excuse some of you anti-DRM people from sarcastic replies and nasty comments. So bloody what if I have only made 64 posts? I have read hundreds of thousands and donated a few times to access the download here. I have always been a keen visitor and supporter. I don't expect to be jumped on just because I don't post regularly. I bet there are lots of other people on here who just come to read and occasionally chip in. Doesn't mean they are not a valued member of the subsim community. Neil used to be quite strict about the atmosphere here - seems he doesn't care anymore.

(Post 66 - Am I worthy yet or do I need a few more thousand?)

I don't think any of the "anti-DRM" people if you want to call them that have a problem with any of those services/methods. I use STEAM myself and prefer to by a game with it. I don't even have a problem with it staying connected even when I am playing single player.

The problem becomes when I have to. If STEAM didn't have an offline mode. I wouldn't use it. Period. I refuse to tether my ability to play single player games to my internet connection. I live in a hurricane zone and when they hit and the internet is down for weeks. That is no time to lose my ability to game. It is when I need it the most.



If the stupid lazy idiots that came up with this crap would have done a little surveying or contemplating they would have realized there is a very good reason STEAM has an offline mode. Why don't we ask someone to poll the decision makers at STEAM and see if they think it would be a good idea to remove offline mode. Not one of them would consider it. Seems to me that is why everyone is so afraid of them.

They aren't idiots like the rest of the industry appears to be.

EA and UbiSoft execs would chase a dollar bill out the window of an office on the 50th floor.

[Kapitan_Phillips]

Technology improves, you roll with it or get left behind. It's ALWAYS been that way.


That reminds me of someone :hmmm:

http://sandalsandsocks.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/cyberman2.jpg

Do we have a Cyberman in our ranks? :o

[GREY WOLF 3]

Originally Posted by cherbert http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/smartdark/viewpost.gif (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=1251463#post1251463)
Well I for one am getting sick of this place now. If Neil wants to continue to allow this nonsense them I'm gone. I strongly believe he is making a big mistake allowing this to happen in this forum.

Bye :woot:

[Reece]

Originally Posted by cherbert http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/smartdark/viewpost.gif (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=1251463#post1251463)
Well I for one am getting sick of this place now. If Neil wants to continue to allow this nonsense them I'm gone. I strongly believe he is making a big mistake allowing this to happen in this forum.
Originally Posted by Grey Wolf 3:
Bye :woot:I'm not saying a thing Neal!!:oops: I want to though!!:D

[Gotmilk]

This is so funny. You guys are getting too personal. Let UBI put their DRM in there. Just stop fighting with each other. It is not worth it.


There is no reason to be a positive about this DRM thing, but there is also no reason to waste all your free time in this forum and arguing about the thing that wont change anyway.

This used to be such a great community. :nope:

[bigboywooly]

This is so funny. You guys are getting too personal. Let UBI put their DRM in there. Just stop fighting with each other. It is not worth it.


There is no reason to be a positive about this DRM thing, but there is also no reason to waste all your free time in this forum and arguing about the thing that wont change anyway.

This used to be such a great community. :nope:

Still is
I see no one keelhauled or outright nastiness
Ppl disagree
Whether here, at work or in the pub
Fact of life

And its not fighting
Its open discussion

Ummmm what a forum is for basically

[HundertzehnGustav]

This is so funny. You guys are getting too personal. Let UBI put their DRM in there. Just stop fighting with each other. It is not worth it.


There is no reason to be a positive about this DRM thing, but there is also no reason to waste all your free time in this forum and arguing about the thing that wont change anyway.

This used to be such a great community. :nope:


It still is.
If these Armani-suit/BMW driving Managers of the publishing company owuld just take their Hands off the Game, you would see the samlme thing for SHV than for SHIII.

It aint the forum, its the ubi marketing.

[janh]

Cherbet, Jaeger & Co. . Nobody has to leave here. You are just among the 10% left here that do not mind the new DRM. The majority is obviously a little bit unhappy about it, and they have the right to vent as much as you do.

[onelifecrisis]

Cherbet, Jaeger & Co. Grow up. Nobody has to leave here.

...

...

...you guys are better off on the UBI Forums.

Er...
Who needs to grow up now? :doh:

I wish people would stop telling each other they're not welcome on this forum. It's such BS. I thought the title of this thread was funny at first but the way this discussion has degenerated is just pathetic.

[CaptainHaplo]

Cherbert - here is the crux of the matter:

I see no reason to fight it because I see it as being the future of things and not worth fighting.

You don't see it as a fight worth having with Ubi. Most members of this forum disagree - for a variety of reasons. Some have technical reasons, some are issues of private rights, and some disagree on purely the principal of the matter.

In the end, we will all simply have to agree to disagree on this. If your ok with the issue, then just ignore the negative and focus on the positives of the game that appeal to you. Thats YOUR right just as much as it is for some to focus on what they see as a deal breaking move by Ubi.

[Jaeger]

Are you serious? Do you have facts or real data sources to say that??
Because this system is impopular for some reasons. Impopular means that the majority don't like it, which I conclude from all the reading I've been doing lately.

While they might be clouding a little too many threads, I think it's fair they voice their anger for some bad decision of those that, in exchange for our money, should be providing a quality service. Unless you think we're a bunch of morons, and that we should all settle down for crappy or unlikeable stuff.

Cheers

here at subsim, most people are against drm, thats right. but think of the thousands of sh5 buyers out there. these "casual gamers", not interested in simming, but in arcade games, will buy it with or without drm. and ubi knows, who is the major group of buyers: thats why they will bring sh5 on console and thats why they made it as an "easy to learneasy interface" game... the real subsimmers are a very small minority! we can be happy to find the modding possibility to mod in the realism.

[karamazovnew]

This post count thing really has to stop. Fighting too...
One would have the impression that we here are deciding the future of DRM on PC games. We're not:
- No one would like such a system if they had dial-up in their home, or traveled much.
- No one would like to see an end of PC gaming or the devs of SH5 losing their jobs because of lack of sales due to piracy.
- No one would like to see Ubi's servers in maintenance and not be able to play.
- No one really cares about pirates and their "rights" to try before buying. Unless...

In other words, we all accept that Ubi has the right to protect it's products. OSP for multiple games, in ideal conditions, is a very neat system. Anyone that has ever played a MMO would agree, as it is simple and non intrusive. We will either go along with the flow, or stop buying. Sale numbers will decide if Ubi decides to continue this tactic, lessen it, or abandon it completely.

I'm an eye-candy man. I worked for 3 months to bring OLC's interface to SH4 just to see the pretty graphics. I deffinitly won't ignore SH5. The game might suck so I'll wait a couple of days to see reviews and make up my mind. Sooner or later Ubi will find a way to resolve this issue of DRM and allow us to play SH5 (a single player game, with mods!) offline as it should be.

PS: let's not transform Subsim into a battleground of legal rights. Newcomers might think this is all that Subsim is about. All that could've been said, HAS been said already multiple times. Let's move on, either plan SH5 mods, or return to the other sections. I for one has just started a new campaign in SH3 and enjoying it to the fullest.

Power to the players! :up:

[IanC]

here at subsim, most people are against drm, thats right. but think of the thousands of sh5 buyers out there. these "casual gamers", not interested in simming, but in arcade games, will buy it with or without drm.

Don't underestimate the casual buyer. I'm willing to bet that more than a few will look behind the box, see "constant internet connection required" and stick the box back on the rack.

[Sailor Steve]

Failing that can Neil create a forum called SH5 - Anti-DRM campaign. And leave the rest of us to look forward to this game in peace.
Neal.

i know, the sh titles selled 1,5 mios of times. i dont think these are all "realism fanatics" like we are. most of them (and these "most" dictate the targest of ubi!) are casual gamers...
But most of the people you describe have never heard of Subsim, so they don't count as far these discussions are concerned.

You might have a more valid argument if the OP had titled this the "SH5 As-is (DRM included) Cheerleading Thread" and politely asked everyone who felt otherwise to not post, but calling everyone who disagrees "whiners" and demanding that they stop posting in the SH5 forums altogether was a certain invitation for a knock-down drag-out brawl.

[Steeltrap]

You might have a more valid argument if the OP had titled this the "SH5 As-is (DRM included) Cheerleading Thread" and politely asked everyone who felt otherwise to not post, but calling everyone who disagrees "whiners" and demanding that they stop posting in the SH5 forums altogether was a certain invitation for a knock-down drag-out brawl.

:yeah:

[Gatt]

Can all the whiners who are not buying SH5 please leave and go back to the SH3 and SH4 forums you really are polluting the threads in here.

No.

[Jaeger]

But most of the people you describe have never heard of Subsim, so they don't count as far these discussions are concerned.

You might have a more valid argument if the OP had titled this the "SH5 As-is (DRM included) Cheerleading Thread" and politely asked everyone who felt otherwise to not post, but calling everyone who disagrees "whiners" and demanding that they stop posting in the SH5 forums altogether was a certain invitation for a knock-down drag-out brawl.

yeah, you're right here. the chosen words were not a good choice.

but i have problems with your first argument: we cant discuss the topic ignoring the non subsimmers. they are the main group which will show us, if drm is accepted or not, if sh5 will be a failure or not. we can fight against drm, but we have to accept when drm wont be a non-buy-argument for the majority, including me. lots of people blame ubi, but if the main group dont hate drm, ubi was right.

[Jaeger]

Er...
Who needs to grow up now? :doh:

I wish people would stop telling each other they're not welcome on this forum. It's such BS. I thought the title of this thread was funny at first but the way this discussion has degenerated is just pathetic.

good post, i regret, if i was to harsh. you are right here.

[Jaeger]

Don't underestimate the casual buyer. I'm willing to bet that more than a few will look behind the box, see "constant internet connection required" and stick the box back on the rack.

perhaps you are right, but i dont think so. we will see...

[Webster]

please try to use the multi-quote feature instead of several posts in a row, it takes less room and neal spent time and effort to give you this multi-quote feature

[Sailor Steve]

but i have problems with your first argument: we cant discuss the topic ignoring the non subsimmers. they are the main group which will show us, if drm is accepted or not, if sh5 will be a failure or not. we can fight against drm, but we have to accept when drm wont be a non-buy-argument for the majority, including me. lots of people blame ubi, but if the main group dont hate drm, ubi was right.
Good point. I was mainly addressing the question of where and when it's valid to complain.

While I can see your concept of the main group's buying habits, I also think that a major portion of the reaction we're seeing here is the (possibly vain) hope that UBI will get the message, and if the DRM isn't abandoned altogether at least we'll be able to play offline.

[Jaeger]

Good point. I was mainly addressing the question of where and when it's valid to complain.

While I can see your concept of the main gry vain"oup's buying habits, I also think that a major portion of the reaction we're seeing here is the (possibly vain) hope that UBI will get the message, and if the DRM isn't abandoned altogether at least we'll be able to play offline.

yeah, right, i am with you here. "possibly vain" is a good formula here... i am a realistic guy, others are perhaps more emotional.

please try to use the multi-quote feature instead of several posts in a row, it takes less room and neal spent time and effort to give you this multi-quote feature

understood, as you can see :up:

[Jimbuna]

Good point. I was mainly addressing the question of where and when it's valid to complain.

While I can see your concept of the main group's buying habits, I also think that a major portion of the reaction we're seeing here is the (possibly vain) hope that UBI will get the message, and if the DRM isn't abandoned altogether at least we'll be able to play offline.

If sales are poor I predict a patch removing the need for online access.

Fingers crossed :DL

[Brag]

I back Jimbuna's prediction. It looks like SH5 sales during first month after release will be waaaay down.

[bigboywooly]

please try to use the multi-quote feature instead of several posts in a row, it takes less room and neal spent time and effort to give you this multi-quote feature

Mines broke :wah:

[Jimbuna]

I back Jimbuna's prediction. It looks like SH5 sales during first month after release will be waaaay down.

I meant "fingers crossed" for the release of a patch and not a wish or desire for a poor sales figure http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/wacko.gif

[Brag]

I meant "fingers crossed" for the release of a patch and not a wish or desire for a poor sales figure http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/wacko.gif

If they relase without DRM/OSP they may have best sales ever. At least I hope so. :salute:

[Jimbuna]

If they relase without DRM/OSP they may have best sales ever. At least I hope so. :salute:

Rgr that http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/thumbsup.gif

[THE_MASK]

Rgr that http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/thumbsup.gif
The game in australia has already been clasified here "Gaming experience may change online" so i would say its definately going to be online game only .

[Jimbuna]

The game in australia has already been clasified here "Gaming experience may change online" so i would say its definately going to be online game only .

Your probably right but there is nothing wrong with hoping for a sudden change of direction.

Ever the optimist.

[HundertzehnGustav]

We be Modders and players alike. we be willing to bring the "Yes we can" attitude to SHV.
We gonna get that damn thing offline.

"YES WEEKEND!!":up:

[janh]

onelifecrisis, on this one you got me. I got a bit worked up about this pointless DRM disaster. It correctly should have read: "If someone has to leave, then I think that you guys would be much happier at... than people not concurring with UBI's DRM plans."

Unfortunately that kind of lost the core point that I made: No one does have to leave -- everyone is entitled to his opinion. It is just a shame to see UBI risk the success of their programmers and the good old SH series. Oh well, SH3+GWX only misses wolve packs.

[TarJak]

The game in australia has already been clasified here "Gaming experience may change online" so i would say its definately going to be online game only .
Not quite correct. Any game that has the potential for online play needs to carry that warning here to advise that the game solo may not be the same when played online. IIRC even the Sims carried this warning.

[Highbury]

All games that have an online mode have to carry that warning here as well.

It is because the companies cannot control what people do or say online. Someone may buy a nice G rated game for their kids, then walk in to see them playing it online and people telling each other off in chat using foul language. That is not the production company, or dev team's fault. But they do have to cover themselves by saying they can't guarantee the rating online.

SHIV had that warning. It has nothing at all to do with the DRM.