warning: listening to this could be damaging to your health

[Skybird]

Let me introduce you to Mr. Oettinger, Germany's new EU commissioner for energy in Brussel. In the first excerpts, in German, he explains why he expects and demands every German employee, every craftsman and businessman, to understand and to speak English language: to read manuals, to communicate with international partners, and because it is the language of the future (hey Oetti, what has become of your Mandarin recently...? :) )

After that he demonstrates what that means in practice. :doh:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXPPu418C78

I apologize for any felt pain in the ear, possible ear damage, and the explicit accoustic cruelty. I cannot be held responsible for these consequences.

Muchas gracias to the German government for giving Germany a respectable voice in the world (Truth is, Merkel choosed Oettinger to get rid of him in Germany since he criticised her too much).

Even I, as a German, had difficulties to understand what he heck he was talking of. :har:

[Skybird]

And while we're at it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLYGPWQ0VjY&feature=related

Another star of Germany's representation on the international stage is the new federal casper for foreign politics, Guido Westerwave. He is best described as Germany's answer to Britain's Miliband. His English is better than that of Oettinger, but to compensate for the lack of laughs, his foreign policy statements so far have been much more hilarious, so has been the foreign policy he has done so far. Even his TV picture still smells against the wind, that deep he has crawled into the lower backs of Poland and Turkey.

In German we have a nice word for non-starters like him. We call them "Rohrkrepierer". A polite way to say "blöder Lackaffe".

Different to Westerwave, Oettinger's competence at least is undisputed. He just should not try to speak English, but get a translator.

[Tribesman]

The important question is....does he know what "Bail" means in English or will he insist that when it comes to use of the English language in England he is right and the English are wrong?

[Snestorm]

I don't mind his imperfect english, however, I don't think he is in any position to mandate others learning the english language. Nor do I think it should be mandated.

[Skybird]

I don't mind his imperfect english, however, I don't think he is in any position to mandate others learning the english language. Nor do I think it should be mandated.
True, but as a representative of a nation, certain cosmetic attributes must be expoected, and if Oettinger is so hilarious in pronouncing English, he simply should hold any speeches in German.

Almost all German media currently have jokes and mockery about Oettinger, at least a critical reference.

BTW, numerically, the primary language in the EU is German anyway, not English, so it would not even be a big faux-pas to refuse to speak English (the French refuse it all the time). No other language inside the EU is spoken by so many people, like German.

[Tribesman]

BTW, numerically, the primary language in the EU is German anyway, not English,
Bull.
Why does Sky feel the need to just make up stuff?
No other language inside the EU is spoken by so many people, like German.
According to the EU the amount of people in the EU speaking the English language beats the amount speaking the German language by a very wide margin

[Castout]

At least he's trying . . . . .:yeah:

[OneToughHerring]

True, but as a representative of a nation, certain cosmetic attributes must be expoected, and if Oettinger is so hilarious in pronouncing English, he simply should hold any speeches in German.

Almost all German media currently have jokes and mockery about Oettinger, at least a critical reference.

BTW, numerically, the primary language in the EU is German anyway, not English, so it would not even be a big faux-pas to refuse to speak English (the French refuse it all the time). No other language inside the EU is spoken by so many people, like German.

No, I think everyone in Europe should speak perfectly ALL the EU languages, including Finnish mind you. Time to shove all that cultural imperialism aside. :)

[Captain Sub]

laughable, controlled puppets.

[Thomen]

Bull.
Why does Sky feel the need to just make up stuff?

According to the EU the amount of people in the EU speaking the English language beats the amount speaking the German language by a very wide margin

Actually, SB is correct. He said primary language, which according to wiki 18% (compared to 13% native English speaker)of Europe's population speaks.

But, English is the most spoken (38%), you are correct there. It is just not the most spoken native language. It is the most spoken language overall, including secondary speakers. ;)

EDIT:
Whoops.. forgot link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_the_European_Union

[NeonSamurai]

I have to say that at least he is making the effort to speak that language. I could understand what he was saying, even though he spoke with a very thick German accent. I would also add that it does take some balls to speak in public in a language you are not very skillful with (as he must surely realize he isn't very good).

[Shearwater]

On behalf of all South Western Germans, I like to apologize in advance for the ear cancer you might incur over the next decades.

[Captain Sub]

Most SH3 multiplayers I've encountered speak real poor english and often it's hard to understand aswell as communicate.

English is so important, it can't even be articulated.


peace

[Tribesman]

Actually, SB is correct. He said primary language,
And primary has more than one meaning, since he followed with.....
No other language inside the EU is spoken by so many people, like German.
....then he cannot have meant that.
What he has effectively written is "native german speakers speak german and there are quite a lot of them"

German is the primary native language in the EU, not the primary language....which of course wouldn't be an issue if Sky wasn't taking issue over someone not getting their english right:up:

[Letum]

English is the natural language of man.

Dogs bark.
Cows moo.
Humans speak English.

Only constant exposure to foreign, barbarian languages causes some
people to speak false tongues.

The sooner all people are educated to speak the correct language; the better.
;)

[Skybird]

There is a running joke in Germany. Oettinger was minister president of Baaden-Wuertemberg, and down there they speak an accent, Schwaebisch, that most Germans agree to be the most terribly sounding of all German local tongues we have. It really drills into the ear and into the skull and that pain makes you aggressive. :D They used to run a TV advert campaign about the economic strength of that federal state (No. 1 or 2 amongst all German federal states, beside Bavaria), and that advert ended with "We can do everything - except speaking German".

Newspapers have reported meanwhile that Oettinger has promised to take English classes and get more training with English. If a private person speaks it like he does, then that is one thing. My French for example is not better than his English. But if an official representative of a nation does like that, he better should use a translator. and if before he even lectured other sabout the need to speak a solid English and that every low job worker must master it, then his performance simply deserves all mockery that so far he has gotten.

[Skybird]

English is the natural language of man.



English may be the natural language of man, but German is it's poetry. :O:

[Tribesman]

English is the natural language of man.

For the next couple of days I will be hearing your local version of English, which many people who have English as their native tongue can find harder to understand than those german politicians featured at the start of the topic.

[Schroeder]

There is a running joke in Germany. Oettinger was minister president of Baaden-Wuertemberg, and down there they speak an accent, Schwaebisch, that most Germans agree to be the most terribly sounding of all German local tongues we have.
I think it is beaten by "Sächsisch".

They used to run a TV advert campaign about the economic strength of that federal state (No. 1 or 2 amongst all German federal states, beside Bavaria), and that advert ended with "We can do everything - expect speaking German".
*caughhighgermancough*
;)

[Letum]

For the next couple of days I will be hearing your local version of English, which many people who have English as their native tongue can find harder to understand than those german politicians featured at the start of the topic.

Thes allus some chuffin chap who'll say owt to nark me, n's oft thee sen.
:03:

[Skybird]

I think it is beaten by "Sächsisch".
*caughhighgermancough*
;)
Blush response! :haha:

Damn that speed-typing. Repaired.

[NeonSamurai]

English may be the natural language of man, but German is it's poetry. :O:

If you forget Shakespeare then maybe :03:

German is the language of heavy metal :rock: :DL

[Letum]

German is the language of heavy metal :rock: :DL

Now that I can agree with! :rock:

[Tribesman]

Thes allus some chuffin chap who'll say owt to nark me, n's oft thee sen.

Little old me? would I ever? :yeah:
could be worse, it coulda been chuffin gauvies getting thee mithered

[Skybird]

If you forget Shakespeare then maybe :03:

German is the language of heavy metal :rock: :DLShakespeare is imo as overestimated in English as Goethe is in German. Both languages have poets who were more competent in words and who brought both languages to higher peaks of melody and rythm, and had more interesting things to say. Rilke on my mind, or Auden, or Trakl, Yeats.

Goethe btw said in a letter to a friend that he did no consider himself to be a good poet, and that he would prefer to be remembered for his writings on natural observations. He was a universally interested "Naturkundler", a passion he followed with more interest than poetry. His skills as a poet I would say to be solid craftsmanship, at best. And Shakespeare - somehow it's always the same with him: first the turmoil, then the pathetic speeches, and in the end they are all dead. :) Not to mention the originally Klingon monologues. :haha:

[Skybird]

On a sidenote, by chnace I stumbled over this page a while ago, tjhat illustrates the considerations and porblems of translating a poem that accoustically may sound very well in one language, but is hard to translate into another language. The first link illustrates that on a more theoretical basis, enriched with many examples of alternatives for a trasnlation, the second link illustrates the wide possible variety of translations for one and the same poem, sometimes they work, and soemtimes they don't.

http://www.textetc.com/workshop/wt-rilke-1.html

http://www.thebeckoning.com/poetry/rilke/rilke3.html

While sometimes a poem simply cannot be translated adequately into another language (I once checked for - and even tried myself - with Auden's wonderful As I walked out one evening, one of my all-time favourite poems), sometimes you have the paradoxical result that eventually in a translation a poem may sound even better than in the original. I experienced that with W.B. Yeats An Irish airman forsees his death. I know both the English and one German translation - and I prefer the German. This is not because I am German myself - the poem before, by Auden, I would not even think again to translate into German. It simply does not work, like most of the time it does not work to translate Rilke into English.

[frau kaleun]

It simply does not work, like most of the time it does not work to translate Rilke into English.


Are you familiar with Stephen Mitchell's English translations of Rilke? Those are the ones I have, and I love them. They include the original German texts but of course I'm nowhere near competent in German so I can't really compare one to the other. I've always wondered how good a job Mitchell did in capturing the essence of the originals.

[Skybird]

Are you familiar with Stephen Mitchell's English translations of Rilke? Those are the ones I have, and I love them. They include the original German texts but of course I'm nowhere near competent in German so I can't really compare one to the other. I've always wondered how good a job Mitchell did in capturing the essence of the originals.
Is it an online edition, or a book?

If the latter, would you mind to post "Die Insel der Sirenen/The Island of Sirens", if it happens to be included? That's is one of my favourite Rilke poems, I always wondered if there is a good English translation of it.

[frau kaleun]

I have the books. I don't know if the translations are available online but I'll look. If not I can get it out of the book when I get home.

Altho that title doesn't ring any bells, so it's possible Mitchell didn't include it.

[Skybird]

Just curious: do you understand German and compared the translation with the originals?

[frau kaleun]

I understand ein wenig, lol.

For giving orders and receiving reports on a u-boat, I do okay. :DL

Everything else, barring basic civilities, if it's written down I might make out a tiny bit and guess at a little bit more, but sit and read and understand without referring to an English translation or other such helper? No.

With the Mitchell books the original text is on one page and the English on the other page facing it. Going back and forth I can figure out which words in German correspond to which part of the translation - they are very similar languages in some respects, after all.

But that's not the same as being able to read it in German and comprehend it that way, and feel it that way, which with poetry is so important.

[frau kaleun]

There are some excerpts on line here:

http://www.stephenmitchellbooks.com/transAdapt/poetryRilkeExcerpt.html

and here:

http://www.stephenmitchellbooks.com/transAdapt/aheadPartingExcerpt.html

The poem you mentioned is not included, but two of my favorites are:


ARCHAIC TORSO OF APOLLO

We cannot know his legendary head
with eyes like ripening fruit. And yet his torso
is still suffused with brilliance from inside,
like a lamp, in which his gaze, now turned to low,

gleams in all its power. Otherwise
the curved breast could not dazzle you so, nor could
a smile run through the placid hips and thighs
to that dark center where procreation flared.

Otherwise this stone would seem defaced
beneath the translucent cascade of the shoulders
and would not glisten like a wild beast’s fur:

would not, from all the borders of itself,
burst like a star: for here there is no place
that does not see you. You must change your life.


SONNETS TO ORPHEUS II, 13

Be ahead of all parting, as though it already were
behind you, like the winter that has just gone by.
For among these winters there is one so endlessly winter
that only by wintering through it will your heart survive.

Be forever dead in Eurydice — more gladly arise
into the seamless life proclaimed in your song.
Here, in the realm of decline, among momentary days,
be the crystal cup that shattered even as it rang.

Be — and yet know the great void where all things begin,
the infinite source of your own most intense vibration,
so that, this once, you may give it your perfect assent.

To all that is used-up, and to all the muffled and dumb
creatures in the world’s full reserve, the unsayable sums,
joyfully add yourself, and cancel the count.

[Skybird]

Thanks for looking it up.

I admit the translations do not convince me, they neither transport the precise meaning of several German words (for which English has no exact translation), bor doe the translations carry the rythm and rhyme that is so very unique for the origial Rilke.

I know no rilke tranlsation sin book form. I just once looked it up on the web, and for example found the sites mentioned above, or these (with some really terrible translations)

http://picture-poems.com/rilke/new.html#Apollo

However, for whatever the reaosn may be, a small number of Rilke poems nevertheless seem to be more accissable for translation into English than most others. You then often do not deal with just one acceptable translation, but eventually with a whole lot of different ones that all neverthelss are acceptable. I do not know why this is so. The same person translating so well this one poem - neverthless may screw it up with the next 4 or 5 he/her tried. The Pnather is a good example, possibly no other rilke poems has seen so many translations. And many of them catch the rythm and rhyme and meldoy of atmopshere of the original. but with most Rilke poems I saw in translations, I must confess that they leave it to give the meaning of words, in the way a dictionary gives you a defintion of a term, but is no piece of art or literature in itself.

This is the Siren's Island in German, since I mentioned it. I love it. Kaleuns: beware and watch out! ;)

Die Insel der Sirenen


Wenn er denen, die ihm gastlich waren,
spät, nach ihrem Tage noch, da sie
fragten nach den Fahrten und Gefahren,
still berichtete: er wußte nie,

wie sie schrecken und mit welchem jähen
Wort sie wenden, daß sie so wie er
in dem blau gestillten Inselmeer
die Vergoldung jener Inseln sähen,

deren Anblick macht, daß die Gefahr
umschlägt; denn nun ist sie nicht im Tosen
und im Wüten, wo sie immer war:
Lautlos kommt sie über die Matrosen,

welche wissen, daß es dort auf jenen
goldnen Inseln manchmal singt -,
und sich blindlings in die Ruder lehnen,
wie umringt

von der Stille, die die ganze Weite
in sich hat und an die Ohren weht,
so als wäre ihre andre Seite
der Gesang, dem keiner widersteht.

[Skybird]

Hey, I found a translation - and it even is an acceptable one!


Nightly, after all their day’s travail,
since his gracious hosts had asked about
his journeys and sojourns, he will regale
them softly with his yarns: and yet without

suspecting how they started, and at which
bold word they turned to see, like him, in those
calm, blue island-studded seas how rich
the golden shimmer of that island glows,

just the sight of which evokes the scent
of danger, well removed from far more common
rage and wrath, where it was often spent.
Soundlessly it overtakes the seamen,

who understand that sometimes song will soar
from that golden island’s boundary,
and who apply themselves now to the oars
as though surrounded

by the silence which within holds all
of that expanse, and at their ears insists,
as though its obverse were that very call
which no mere mortal ever can resist.

[Skybird]

Heck, that guy is doing a pretty good job with some other poems, too:

http://www.germanic.ucla.edu/NGR/ngr13/trrilke.htm

After the poems, the tanslator added some notes:


Translator’s Note: “Crossing the English Channel”

Partly thanks to a greater understanding of the creative process, partly thanks to the proliferation of inexact rhyme usage, we have come a long way from the days when Verlaine’s “Il pleure dans mon coeur” was ren�dered in English as “It cries in my heart.” Nevertheless, each translator, set�ting out to make the rough crossing from one language to another, is still taking chances when determining his priorities. At one end of the spectrum are those translators who would settle for transferring content; at the oppo�site end are the often monolingual poets translating “with” a native speaker. There the perils are dual: Inaccuracies arising from the middle-man, and the poet’s converting the original into one of his own creations.
C.f. MacIntyre, a pioneer translator of Rilke who, along with actress Luise Rainer, introduced me to the poet, appeared to have a simple formula to achieve transformation from German into English: He forced the con�tents of each poem into a rhyming entity by interspersing it with material not found in the original. Even in recent, more sophisticated translations, monstrosities occur. Walter Arndt, in comparing translations of Rilke’s famous “The Panther,” accuses J. B. Leishman of choices the “disqualify the whole enterprise” (159), and M. D. Herter Norton of “a failure to try” (160). Worse, in comparing versions of “Going Blind” (“Die Erblindende”; see “Woman Going Blind,” above) Arndt lashes out at Stephen Mitchell’s work, accusing him of ineffective rhyming (“table/painful”), of “idly” tam�pering with content, and of being insensitive to meter, among other things: “…Mitchell is constrained throughout by his equipment to rate the conven�ience of the prosodically untutored translator above the esthetic identity of the poem” (166).
Such a vituperative attack is wholly uncalled for. Translation is, at best, an imperfect art. Since the color of no two languages is the same, any effort is doomed to fall short from the start. Here is Mitchell’s final stanza of the poem:
She followed slowly, taking a long time,
As though there were some obstacle in the way;
and yet: as though, once it was overcome
she would be beyond walking and would fly. (166)
Yes, “taking a long time” is flabby for “und sie brauchte lang”; “some obstacle” for “etwas,” being gratuitous, poses some obstacle indeed-call it “inorganic language”; and “once it was overcome” for “nach einem �ber�gang” is merely clumsy. The final line evokes the unfortunate image of Mary Poppins sailing over the rooftops. Yet Arndt’s own translation is hardly unflawed. The very opening “Sie sass so wie die anderen beim Tee” becomes “She sat at tea just like the others. First”. Here the rhythm is im�mediately violated by the “First”-part of a new sentence that should not have begun until line two. The moral is that ultimately we must all fall short of perfection.
My own theory of translation derives from Verlaine’s dictum concern�ing all poetry: “De la musique avant toute chose.” The music of the poem (or, given that no two languages sound the same, the rhythm, at least) must remain intact. We can recognize a piece by Mozart or a poem by Rilke by its rhythms, and we should be able to do the same with a translation-that being the litmus test. As for the content-its language, in English, must be organic to the poem as a whole; “seamless is a term (from Rilke’s “The An�gels”) that might be apt. Lastly comes the rhyme, for Rilke’s lyric poetry without it ceases to be Rilke’s lyric poetry. Here is where the hard labor comes in: turning, molding, softening the lines until they acquiesce, until they become plastic and flowing, their syntax comfortable in their adopted new language.
These then, to recap, are the three magic wands of translation: Rhythm, meaning depicted faithfully in organic language, and rhyme capping a fluid syntax.

[UnderseaLcpl]

English may be the natural language of man, but German is its poetry. :O:

:rotfl2::rotfl2::rotfl2:

I love the German language. I love hearing it spoken and I love speaking it, but I would never describe it as poetry. :O::O:

There are a lot of good things to be said about the German language; it is functional and fairly simple, the syntax is fairly easy to master, and it uses a lot of hard consanants - which makes it easy to pick out words and syllables. German also includes a lot of compound words, so it is easy to decipher if one knows the root words. Ironically, there is no word to describe such a thing in the English language, but there is a German word that means "beautifully functional" or somesuch, which serves to adequately describe the language itself. Whatever that word is, that is how I would describe German.

Even so, German is a far cry from poetry. (Sorry, Sky:DL) The language is simply too coarse to serve in such a capacity, especially in cases where poetry is most often applied.

Consider the following - In English, a common phrase is "I love you". It carries a lot of meaning, and it flows easily. The basic phonetic structure; "I lobyoo", is natural and easy for most speakers to pronounce.

Some languages are even better at this. In the case of Spanish the phrase would be te amo (tay-amo). The phrase literally means you, I love in English, but it sounds pretty good, and it is easily pronouncable, making it more aesthetically valuable in the verbal sense.

In German the phrase is "Ich liebe dich"(Ick(phlegm)-lee-ba-dick(phlegm), IIRC. Again, there is a kind of beauty hidden in the simplicity and easy distinction between words, but it still sounds lousy in any poetic context. You wouldn't charm a woman by coughing up phlegm, so why would you use a language that imitates such a sound on a regular basis through the use of overly-hard consonant sounds?

German has a beauty all its own, but it is not a "romantic" language.

The nice thing about English is the variety of languages from which it is comprised. Almost all of the vocabulary has some basis in another language or language group, so there are a lot of cognates for everyone in the western world. English shares some traits with German, as it is a Germanic language, but it rounds things out with a lot of words and syntax taken from other languages.
----------------------------------------------------------------

Back OT, I didn't have a great deal of difficulty understanding what Herr Oettinger was saying. His English needs some work, and he could slow down a bit between syllables, but I found the whole piece to be more or less decipherable.

I cannot condone his stance on mandating proficiency in English, however. While it is true that English has become the global language of trade and diplomacy, there is no reason to mandate English instruction.

Those who have a need to learn English should be allowed to do so. Those who have no need or desire should be allowed to forego the same. Just let the market do its work. If English proficiency is required we will find no shortage of willing students. If things change and we must all suddenly become proficient in Mandarin or any other language we will do so in short order. I see no benefit in the efforts of a state representative attemoting to predict the course of global linguistics based upon his observations of what is happening right now. At best he is mandating a course of action that has already been decided upon by those who care for such a thing and at worst he is imposing his own misguided will upon those who either do not care for or are not affected by such measures.

[Tribesman]

I cannot condone his stance on mandating proficiency in English, however. While it is true that English has become the global language of trade and diplomacy, there is no reason to mandate English instruction.

Isn't there?
Instruction in languages is already mandated by each countries education department.
I think its English that is mandatory in German 2nd level education.

[Skybird]

:rotfl2::rotfl2::rotfl2:
Even so, German is a far cry from poetry. (Sorry, Sky:DL) The language is simply too coarse to serve in such a capacity, especially in cases where poetry is most often applied.

I wonder if you really can judge that, Lance. Are you fluent in German language, have you ever heared an actor reciting some prose? Do not make the mistake to think you know German from the typical German clichés Hollywood uses in films - the "ugly German", the man as well as the Nazi officer talking to the troops in the trenches, in that Hollywood-way of describing him, almost does not exist.

My mother made friendship with a younger woman, a Korean, who came to Germany to study Germanistik iover here. She speaks perfect, absolutely perfect language (more perfect than ost Germans). but she once told us how amazed she was and how surprised when she first heared the langauge spoken in this country. It was totally different to what she knew from movies, and different to what the (Korean) teachers spoke. She expected that barrack square-lkind of yelling you often hear in the movies. "but they all speak so very differently here!" and much, much softer, she said. She expeted Germans to snap and balk like angry dogs. she said she now knows why the Germans once were called a people of thinkers "and poets".


It is like with English, in a way. To hear a low-sounding bass-voice reading poetry, can be delightful. To hear a typical hysteric-soprano female american voice trying to scare the birds away with her high-pitched volume, is sheer cruelty! the type of vopices you often hear expressing emotions in some sit"com", you know! Terrible.

Or take the first album by Alan Parson, that is the Edgar Allan Poe Album, "Tales of mystery and imgination". The narration between the songs is done by Orson Welles, excerpts from the work of Poe. It sounds great!

But others speaking the language may sound like Donald Duck who just had his balls kicked between his ears. It depends on the voice, the was of speaking, and the text that is spoken. And it is not different in german.

Take a poet like Gottfried Benn. He wrote some of the most beautiful, soft-sounding poetry I know in German. And also some of the most ugly, modern pieces, filled with cynism, aggression - and the words he choosed give it all a different, hard, tough sound as well. It depends, obviously. Now take Rilke, whom I have mentioned above. There is a reason why he sometimes is referred to as a composer with the sound of words - if you read him correctly, you realise the flow, the rythm, the softness in his language that easily can rival the softest wording you can chose in English or French.

Consider the following - In English, a common phrase is "I love you". It carries a lot of meaning, and it flows easily. The basic phonetic structure; "I lobyoo", is natural and easy for most speakers to pronounce.

Some languages are even better at this. In the case of Spanish the phrase would be te amo (tay-amo). The phrase literally means you, I love in English, but it sounds pretty good, and it is easily pronouncable, making it more aesthetically valuable in the verbal sense.

Okay, you like your language we understand, so do I, but your conclusions on other languages are heavily biased for that reason.

In German the phrase is "Ich liebe dich"(Ick(phlegm)-lee-ba-dick(phlegm), IIRC.

Simply wrong, and here you show that you misperceive German because you do not know it good enough. You have two hard sounds, "ck", in your phonetic description that simply do not exist. There is no "k" in the pronounciation (we Germans often are amused to hear how terribly wrong or funny sometimes german names get pronounced by Americans, we hear it in sports, for example). The German "ch" is NOT pronounced as "k". I think there is no parallel to it in English.

And "phlegm", you said. Are you aware how absurd and funny the English "th" sounds for foreign people and how desparate it's pronounciation can drive young kids trying to learn the language at school? In first classes it easily results in a spitting competition. :DL

Again, there is a kind of beauty hidden in the simplicity and easy distinction between words, but it still sounds lousy in any poetic context. You wouldn't charm a woman by coughing up phlegm, so why would you use a language that imitates such a sound on a regular basis through the use of overly-hard consonant sounds?
Now you talk nonsens. Like English, german can be very practical and extremely precise, and often it is more precise becasue it'S unique ability to precsiely describe a meaning by combning two words into one new word in a way it is not being done in English. However, and again like English, it also can be used as a very powerful emotional language. I think that is the reason why i likeEnglish quite much. There are so very plenty of similiarities. but there are some occasions of wanting to describe nuances of a meaning where English simply fails due to lacking vocabulary - at such occasions, I prefer German then.

German has a beauty all its own, but it is not a "romantic" language.

Then you do not know it well enough, really. ;) And former generations throughout Europe also would disagree with you. The era of the European "Romantik" was heavily influenced not only by German thinking and arts, but the language itself as well.

The nice thing about English is the variety of languages from which it is comprised. Almost all of the vocabulary has some basis in another language or language group, so there are a lot of cognates for everyone in the western world. English shares some traits with German, as it is a Germanic language, but it rounds things out with a lot of words and syntax taken from other languages.

So what? Do you think that makes it the basis or the centre of all Germanic languages? The influence has been mutual and bi-directional for sure. The Western Germanic languages include English as well as German, Dutch, Jiddish, Friesisch, and Afrikaans. The Northern Germanic languages are the Scandinavian languages, maybe with the expection of Finnish, I am not sure on that right now. The East Germanic languages are no longer alive (it was Gothic). So you see, even here you already see a very close relation between English and German (and Dutch). You see it even clearer in this comparison if replacing German with Low German.

French on the other hand belongs to the romanic branch of the indogermanic languages, so does Spanish, Italian, Catalan, Portuegese, and Romanian language. The influence of Latin on them is more profound than on the Germanic languages - it affects structure and syntax and grammar more seriously, while in English and German it is more focussed on the inclusion of Latin terms that changed and then found entrance into English and German.

So when you think all english vocabulary is refering to "all other language families" as well, you describe it wrong as long as you do not mean the process of foreign language words being used in other languages as well, like German and French terms in english, and English terms in German. But the ammount to which this takes place today is a relatively modern phenomenon, owing to the the grown mutual international transaction in the globalised world.

Else the influence between the Germanic languages has been and still is mutual, and not running in one-way direction only. you will find more similiarities and closer ties between English and German than for example between English and French or Italian. Maybe that is why you said German is easy to learn (most people would disagree with that, though. french is more difficult than German, but German is more difficult than English. German grammar knows far more special cases and exceptions and typical rules, than English grammar.)

Both roman and germanic languages are part of the indogermanic family, which still makes them more familiar to each other than for example Spanish and Japanese or German and Chinese. That'S why it is relatively comfortable to translate most western languages into any other western language, almost linear. But it does not work that way with Chinese or Japanese.

Back OT, I didn't have a great deal of difficulty understanding what Herr Oettinger was saying. His English needs some work, and he could slow down a bit between syllables, but I found the whole piece to be more or less decipherable.

I cannot condone his stance on mandating proficiency in English, however. While it is true that English has become the global language of trade and diplomacy, there is no reason to mandate English instruction.

That you say becasue you experience English of the language you are used to since your birth. You do not know to our degree how it is to need to adapt to a world that does not speak your native language. It is easier for British and americans to get along internationally with their native langauge, than it is for others. In principal you lucky dogs could have gotten along without ever learning a foreing language. This now changes, with China'S rise in the business world. but still today it is taken for granted that the traveller on an international trip will be met in - English.

So, in a way Oettinger has it right if he demands people to learn English. He just should not lecture about it if he cannot speak it himself.

anyhow, the importance of English is slowly decreasing, while the importance of Chinese language is growing. Especially in the business world.

[frau kaleun]

My mother made friendship with a younger woman, a Korean, who came to Germany to study Germanistik iover here. She speaks perfect, absolutely perfect language (more perfect than ost Germans). but she once told us how amazed she was and how surprised when she first heared the langauge spoken in this country. It was totally different to what she knew from movies,


Yeah I think there is definitely a notion that German is an "ugly" language because of the exposure non-German speakers get to it from various things that are intended for them and not for German speakers.

Having taken to watching some movies made in German by native German speakers, I find that for me it sounds neither ugly nor more harsh sounding than any other language does unless there is a reason for it to be spoken harshly - the situation, what is being said, why, the emotional state or intent of the speaker.

As for the "romance" thing - well, IMO romance is in the ear of the beholder. Or the behearer. Whatever, you know what I mean. If "I love you" is what you want to hear from a particular individual, it's good in any language. If it's the language you share with each other and in which you are accustomed to expressing yourself and everything you think and feel, why would any other language be preferable?

Honestly as a native English speaker, if some native English speaking guy tried to "romance" me by switching to French or Italian as some kind of presumed "smoove move"... well, he'd better have his tongue very obviously and firmly planted in cheek, otherwise I'd probably laugh in his face. :O:

[Lord Justice]

otherwise I'd probably laugh in his face. :O:Charmed iam sure. :nope:

[frau kaleun]

Charmed iam sure. :nope:


Judging by your gentlemanly demeanor (as I have so far experienced it), it is unlikely that you would find me aiming such derision in your direction.

However there are some men who seek to impress or arouse the affections of naive young ladies by assuming a somewhat, shall we say, "continental" persona in which the use of various presumably more "romantic" languages often plays a large part.

When this is done in a lighthearted manner and all parties concerned are equally in on the joke, as it were, I have no objection to it.

When it is done to create the pretense of "romance" where none in fact exists (or where none would exist if the perpetrator did not stoop to such tactics), it is another matter entirely.

Just my opinion as a not-so-young lady who has already been to the rodeo on a few occasions. :O:

[Skybird]

Yeah I think there is definitely a notion that German is an "ugly" language because of the exposure non-German speakers get to it from various things that are intended for them and not for German speakers.

Having taken to watching some movies made in German by native German speakers, I find that for me it sounds neither ugly nor more harsh sounding than any other language does unless there is a reason for it to be spoken harshly - the situation, what is being said, why, the emotional state or intent of the speaker.

As for the "romance" thing - well, IMO romance is in the ear of the beholder. Or the behearer. Whatever, you know what I mean. If "I love you" is what you want to hear from a particular individual, it's good in any language. If it's the language you share with each other and in which you are accustomed to expressing yourself and everything you think and feel, why would any other language be preferable?

Honestly as a native English speaker, if some native English speaking guy tried to "romance" me by switching to French or Italian as some kind of presumed "smoove move"... well, he'd better have his tongue very obviously and firmly planted in cheek, otherwise I'd probably laugh in his face. :O:
:yep:

[Skybird]

And since in earlier discussions people did not believe me that the vocabulary of German is bigger than that of English.

The university of Leipzig has a long-time project running, that is collecting and counting the number of German words.the project is called "Der deutsche Wortschatz". A comparable project for English is run by the Americans, the so-called Global Language Monitor in San Diego.

The German project has identified so far 2.5 million German words. This does not include regional idioms, and it is based on written sources only, it does not include spoken German in the count. If these would be counted too, then the number of existing German words is estimated to be in the range of 3-5 million.

The american project, last time I read about it, estimated the number of words in English vocabulary to be short of 1 million. However, they do not count lexemes, if they would, the gap between English and German would be closer. Also, I do not know if the fact that for many things English knows two words instead of one, that nevertheless mean completely the same, but are different by historic origin (the one deriving from the germanic language history, the other, due to the Norman history, from Romanic French), is taken into account by them.

And an estimation for size of vocabularies of Goethe and Shakespeare I have marked in a book on poetry that I have gotten from my mother, she excells in such things a bit. there they give Shakespeare 24000, and Goethe 90000 words.

However, one should not read too much into such bean-counting projects, even more so when one does not know what the criterions are for accepting a word in the count, and when not (when it is composed of two other, for example). The publisher of the Oxford dictionary for example still claims that not German but English has the biggest vocabulary, especially due to the "double-terming" caused by both Germanic and French words for ione and the same thing finding entrance into it. Omn the other hand, years ago a spoekesman for Langenscheidt, the leading German publisher for dictionaries who also cooperates with Harper-Collins, said that the difficulty in doing a new dictionary is that German has so much a bigger vocabulary than English. Stable pride, maybe...? Authors like Bradbury and Hemingway used a much smaller vocabulary than Shakespeare or Goethe, but in my perception express much more intense emotions and inner arousal of fantasy. Are they the better or the worse artists, compared to their historic colleagues? As Frau Kaleun indicated, what counts is how you use the language that is available to you, and in what context you say what things.

[Schroeder]

:rotfl2::rotfl2::rotfl2:

In German the phrase is "Ich liebe dich"(Ick(phlegm)-lee-ba-dick(phlegm), IIRC. Again, there is a kind of beauty hidden in the simplicity and easy distinction between words, but it still sounds lousy in any poetic context. You wouldn't charm a woman by coughing up phlegm, so why would you use a language that imitates such a sound on a regular basis through the use of overly-hard consonant sounds?

http://text-to-speech.imtranslator.net/
Please, switch it to German and let it say "ich liebe dich". You will find it very different from your description.:damn:

[Catfish]

Hello,
(also trying to be a smartass, if not yet professional)

Those who said "saechsisch" is bader than "schwaebisch" (which would translate as "saxon" is better than "sueban") are certainly right, but i learned to hate even "schwaebisch" when working at the Daimler-Benz works in Stuttgart. Gaawwwd.

But ... as you all know, the Saxons and the Angles (both german tribes)went to, and conquered, a land that was yet to be called Anglo-Saxony, or Angle-Land, which then became England. So i find that speaking saxon, or anglish in its original form, is indeed the badest of all accents :rotfl2:

Ahem.
Greetings,
Catfish

[Snestorm]

German questions that can drive one crazey.

Why do some, but not all germans mispronounce "ch" as "sch"?

When a word starts with "S", why do many germans pronounce it as "sch"?

And in both cases above, is it corect, or a mispronunciation?

[Snestorm]

But ... as you all know, the Saxons and the Angles (both german tribes)went to, and conquered, a land that was yet to be called Anglo-Saxony, or Angle-Land, which then became England. So i find that speaking saxon, or anglish in its original form, is indeed the badest of all accents :rotfl2:

Ahem.
Greetings,
Catfish

Don't forget the danes, who also left quite a mark on the english language.

[Skybird]

Great reading of a great poem, by Dylan Thomas.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xg-_ah0JfhU

[Skybird]

German questions that can drive one crazey.

Why do some, but not all germans mispronounce "ch" as "sch"?

When a word starts with "S", why do many germans pronounce it as "sch"?

And in both cases above, is it corect, or a mispronunciation?

Examples?

[Snestorm]

Examples?

Pronouncing "Isch" instead of "Ich".

Pronouncing "Schteiger" instead of "Steiger".

[Schroeder]

If a S is followed by a T or a P the S is pronounced like a Sch.
Examples:
Sturm -> pronounced Schturm
Spiel -> pronounced Schpiel.

If the S is followed by any other letter it remains a S.

Isch instead of Ich is what a lot of foreigners say who don't have German as their motherlanguage. I'm not aware of a regional German dialect that would pronounce ich like isch (although I think people who speak Swabian might do that....but I'm not sure...:hmm2:).

[Skybird]

^

What he said.

I can only add that for English speakers it is not only "ich" getting pronounced like "isch", but - as Lance even wrote it - getting pronounced as "ik/ick" ("ick liebe dick"). In retaliation for that cruelty, many Germans not too familiar with speaking English, pronounce the English "th" as a soft "s" or "ds", or even as - maximum penalty! - "z". :D

An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, you know. :O:

[frau kaleun]

In retaliation for that cruelty, many Germans not too familiar with speaking English, pronounce the English "th" as a soft "s" or "ds", or even as - maximum penalty! - "z". :D

An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, you know. :O:


:rotfl2: :rock:

[Letum]

In retaliation for that cruelty, many Germans not too familiar with speaking English, pronounce the English "th" as a soft "s" or "ds", or even as - maximum penalty! - "z". :D

An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, you know.

And then there is 'W' and 'V'.

[Snestorm]

If a S is followed by a T or a P the S is pronounced like a Sch.
Examples:
Sturm -> pronounced Schturm
Spiel -> pronounced Schpiel.

If the S is followed by any other letter it remains a S.

Isch instead of Ich is what a lot of foreigners say who don't have German as their motherlanguage. I'm not aware of a regional German dialect that would pronounce ich like isch (although I think people who speak Swabian might do that....but I'm not sure...:hmm2:).

@Skybird also.
Thank you for the valuable clarifications.

German is even more complex than english. Especialy the grammer. (Rocket science!)
However, it does seem to have the most perfect match between written and spoken.
While danish leaves enough room for spelling errors based on pronunciation, english is a disaster.

[Skybird]

@Skybird also.
Thank you for the valuable clarifications.

German is even more complex than english. Especialy the grammer. (Rocket science!)
However, it does seem to have the most perfect match between written and spoken.
While danish leaves enough room for spelling errors based on pronunciation, english is a disaster.
Yes, German grammar is more complex and difficult than English. But French is even worse. Of these three (and most other european languages) , English is the easiest-to-learn language.

[frau kaleun]

@Skybird also.
Thank you for the valuable clarifications.

German is even more complex than english. Especialy the grammer. (Rocket science!)
However, it does seem to have the most perfect match between written and spoken.
While danish leaves enough room for spelling errors based on pronunciation, english is a disaster.

This is very true.

I was lucky enough to learn to read before I started school, and not in the way they taught reading/writing/spelling in school at least where I was. Looking back I can't believe the way they tried to teach us the basics of English spelling and reading and pronunciation. It boiled down to learning the letters of the alphabet and the sounds associated with them, and then trying to "sound out" words based on their spelling.

In another language where pronunciation of each letter or letter combo is far more standardized and there are few exceptions to those rules, that would make sense. In English? Not so much. There is no *standard* way of pronouncing based on spelling that guarantees you'll get it right, or of figuring out how something must be spelled based on the way it sounds. Every "rule" we were taught seems to have numerous exceptions.

I would NOT want to learn English as a second language, lol. Maybe just to speak it, sure, but to read and write it? Yikes.

[Oberon]

What d'he say? :03::haha:

[Snestorm]

What d'he say? :03::haha:

I dunno.