What's the Fascination with U-boats?

[Harry708]

I am sure some will take this the wrong way but I have a question, what’s the fascination with U-boats anyway. :hmmm: SH 2, SH 3 and SH 4 the U-boat add-on and now SH 5 all with U-boats. I know the U-boat was considered the best boat at the time by some, but really why does everyone like playing on the ‘Loosing Side’. By the end of 1943 the U-boats were nothing but an Iron Coffin with maybe a 20% chance of getting home again.

IMHO of course.

[Safe-Keeper]

Apart from the fact that the German subs were the most famous ones, the German Atlantic campaign gives me the most variation and challenge.

/personal opinion

[GoldenRivet]

The German U-Boat fleet:

where to begin.

for starters it was the deadliest submarine warfare unit in the history of war, the Type VII u-boat has in fact been referred to as "the deadliest weapon of war ever devised" by more than one historian.

Safe-Keeper is right as well, the Atlantic theater of operations offers variation and great challenge.

The Atlantic theater was a target rich environment.

despite all of the successes and accomplishments of the U-boats, they were the most feared boats on the sea, yet, in a matter of about 4 years they went from the hunter to the hunted... yet through that course of becoming the hunted... they NEVER lost the respect of their adversaries.

A u-boat is a predator, even when she is being hunted by a DD, its like hunting a lion!

its a dynamic that makes the story much more interesting IMHO

As to why the German's in the Atlantic gained more fame or infamy than the American subs in the Pacific?

hype had a lot to do with it.

much of the Pacific boat operations were clandestine... and almost none of the public knew of their exploits... the u-boats on the other hand, not so much.

[Sailor Steve]

I was born right after the war ended, and grew up with movies like Run Silent, Run Deep, Destination Tokyo and Up Periscope. I played Silent Service and Silent Hunter, and loved playing with the submarines I knew and loved. Then I saw Das Boot. It didn't really change anything for me, but I became curious.

Then SH2 came along, and I got excited about a Silent Hunter for the other side. But of course it was a big disappointment, except for the multiply function.

Then I discovered the older Aces Of The Deep and fell in love.

SH3 was a new start, so it was natural that it would start at the beginning, and it's kind of hard to play the fleet boat war in 1939.

When SH4 was announced a lot of u-boat fanatics complained, but since there was already SH3 it seemed kind of silly to do the same game over again. But SH4 was an improvement in several areas, so it made sense to add the u-boats back into it.

SH5 is starting all over again, so again it only makes sense...

Me, I'm a fan of the genre and the machinery, so I love 'em all. I just wish SH4 had gotten the same treatment as SH3. The supermods so far are great, but where is the immersive eye candy - the harbors and ships? SH4 Commander so I can do the Ship Names properly?

Anyway, I hope that answers your question. It's not the fascination, it's the trying to get it right, one side at a time.

[Shiplord]

It is the same as fascination to participate as bad guy like Darth Vader or a Borg at a costume party :88)

The gaming market is just flooded with games where you will be sent as an American superhero over and over again into the same battles, and almost single leads these battles to success.

[Lanzfeld]

Also, from a game pespective: It start rather easy (1939-1940) and gets more and more difficult as time goes on. (new technology and tactics, air gap, etc....):yeah:

[IanC]

It is the same as fascination to participate as bad guy like Darth Vader or a Borg at a costume party :88)


I know what you mean when you say that, but the thing is U-boats held a mystical fascination from the German side also. During WWII the Germans just loved their grey wolves. There's probably a deep psychological reason for this, maybe something to do with a few men doing much... kinda like the Brits and their Spitfire pilots. :hmmm:

edit: also notice how the Spitfire lines are more aesthetically pleasing than say the Hurricane. The U-boat (any type) is also very pleasing to look at, it just looks... predatory. So I'm guessing aesthetics also plays a factor in the fascination. Aesthetics backed up with performance.

[zulus]

I am sure some will take this the wrong way but I have a question, what’s the fascination with U-boats anyway. :hmmm: SH 2, SH 3 and SH 4 the U-boat add-on and now SH 5 all with U-boats. I know the U-boat was considered the best boat at the time by some, but really why does everyone like playing on the ‘Loosing Side’. By the end of 1943 the U-boats were nothing but an Iron Coffin with maybe a 20% chance of getting home again.

IMHO of course.

I'm affraid it's just because you asked the question like that you will still not fully understand the reasons even after dosens of constructive replys. I really can not explain why I'm so into U-boats because it's something that does not fit into simple words to explain. Maybe in my past life I served in the U-boat myself :) That gives an echo feeling at the present one. Or maybe I was somehow related to Kriegsmarine who knows. It's just this attraction to U-Boats history, passion of interest gives this obsession. I can't speak for others but for me it works exactly like this :)

[VonHesse]

...except for the multiply function


Did you by chance mean the "multiplayer" function?


:D



(sorry Steve, couldn't help myself):rotfl2:

[ETR3(SS)]

The one reason we know so much about the U Boats is because Germany lost the war. All the information about U Boats was laid out before the Allies at wars end. Conversely, the US was on the winning side and so got to keep the secrets of the Fleet Boat secret. But also each person is different as to their particular reasons of interest. Personally I'm more interested in Fleet Boats. This can be directly attributed to my service in US submarines.

[Nickolas]

Did you by chance mean the "multiplayer" function?


:D



(sorry Steve, couldn't help myself):rotfl2:

no, uboat were the first calculators :rotfl2:

[Obltn Strand]

I guess my fascination with submarines started when my dad took me to see museum submarine Vesikko. I was about eight years old then. Then I saw a movie called surprise surprise Das Boot. Later on I have visited Vesikko at least more than two dozen times. I even wanted to serve on a submarine during the mandatory military service, but thanks to Versailles treaty after the ww2, Finland can't have any.

Later came Silent Service and then Aces of the Deep, which still is IMHO better game than SH3, without the sugar coating of course;)

But the german submarines, the silent hunter. They are cool looking war machines and as before said deadly. I can't give any better description because my english is what it is.

[Platapus]

I am sure some will take this the wrong way but I have a question, what’s the fascination with U-boats anyway.

To take a quote from the movie "The "Last Starfighter"

"I've always wanted to fight a desperate battle against incredible odds."

That's why I like U-Boats. :salute:

[FIREWALL]

Did you by chance mean the "multiplayer" function?


:D



(sorry Steve, couldn't help myself):rotfl2:


HA ! :DL Good one VonHesse :up:

[Randomizer]

I suspect there are any number of reasons.

One is the the Battle of the Atlantic played out in front of a much wider audiance than did the US submarine offensive against Japan. The theatre has relevance to all North Americans as well as Europeans and even into South America. In the Pacific it was essentially an America Only campaign that occured out of sight and far away. Even those with an interest in the IJN might prefer to forget it since they bungled their ASW so badly.

Also the historiography of the U-Boat war is far more extensive than the Pacific submarine war again because far more countries were involved. The U-Boat arm was one of the earliest to be de-nazified in print with the translation into English of Harald Busch's U-Boats at War in the mid 1950's. At this time many aspects of the USN's war were still classified (and remained so until the 1970's) so the story of the U-Boats gained currancy earlier and has been around for longer. A good comparison is the portrayal of the enemy in the Hollywood movies "Run Silent Run Deep" vs "The Enemy Below" both produced in the same era.

Das Boot the movie of course greatly personified the U-Boats as well and regularly scores high on lists of popular war movies rather than playing to a narrow submarine movie fan base.

New books dealing with U-Boats come out with a far greater frequency than the commerce war in the Pacific and internationally "The Battle of the Atlantic" probably sounds a more appealing topic than "The United States Submarine War against Japan".

The mythology of the U-Boat has also taken on a life of its own and a couple of interesting books dealing with this very topic are:

Count Not the Dead by Michael Hadley and Neither Sharks nor Wolves by Timothy Mulligan.

Good Hunting

[TDK1044]

For me it's simple....the U Boat cat and mouse war in the Atlantic offers much more drama and entertainment as a player than Fleet Boats in the Pacific. :)

[Iron Budokan]

Apart from the fact that the German subs were the most famous ones, the German Atlantic campaign gives me the most variation and challenge.

/personal opinion

Exactly.

[Alex]

No fascination for me.
Some U-Boote bases got to be part of my native soil, and since I've always been interested in the History of my country... :)

And secondarily :

Apart from the fact that the German subs were the most famous ones, the German Atlantic campaign gives me the most variation and challenge.

/personal opinion

[Brag]

Though important, US subs played a limited role in the Pacific Theater. Without the submarines participating, the results of this campaign would have still ended the same.

In the Atlantic, U-boats were the main protagonists on the German side and for a little while (1941-1942), threatened to nullify British naval supremacy.

In SH-3, the frustration of a U-boat commander is duplicated as after expending one's torpedoes one watches the convoy continue toward their destination.

Never mind the hammering from destroyers.

The U-boat crews fought a heroic contest and got close to changing history.

[Harry708]

Though important, US subs played a limited role in the Pacific Theater. Without the submarines participating, the results of this campaign would have still ended the same.


I don't know about that, the U.S. Submarine Force only made up 2% of the total combatants in the Pacific and sunk over 60% of Japans shipping which shortened the war by years. I would think it would be more true for the Atlanic war the Germans could not sink as many ships as were being produced and was fighting a loosing battle.

[Platapus]

Losing side/battle

Not loosing side/battle

Loosing means to detach.

Losing means failing to win.

[capthelm]

for me it was the bravery these men had in them to go to combat in there
iron coffins.

i have been on 2 museum pieces here in my area where i live.

american ww2 boat uss ling ,and later dated cold war boat uss growler

am 6 foot 5, i was having a hard time venturing through the boats.

i said no way i could do this, fight and live on it.:down:

also the upmost fear of being depth charged imagine the noise fear sweat
cold sea water pouring in.

no escape if the boat did not surface.:wah:

...........

[FIREWALL]

SHIII GWX3 is just great to play. And addictive too. :haha:

[Thomen]

Well, for me personaly it is a matter of family history.
My grandfather served during the war on a u-boat. However, even though I knew all these years that he served on one, my interest was really awakened after he died. At his funeral service I heard for the first time that his boat almost got sunk by a Liberator bomber, and that ulitmately triggered my interest.

[looney]

For me: I find always found it fascinating that in 4 short years the hunter became the hunted and lost by such a high amount it was practically suicide to leave port. But yet they went.

Also the German navy was the least nazified fighting force of the German army, and many skippers fought with honour. But in the end this sums it up:

Winston Churchill (1943): "The only thing that ever really frightened me during the war was the U-boat peril".

And we see the first real submarines come to live: Type XXI and XXIII.

Plus it's a game and I love a challenge :)

P.s. Read "Iron Coffins" by Herbert A. Werner

[Jimbuna]

Nothing much I can add really, but on a commercial note 'more popular with the majority of subsimmers' = more profits through larger sales figures.

I can and do play both ATO and PTO but have a slight preference for ATO.

Platapus just about summed it up for me with his post..."I've always wanted to fight a desperate battle against incredible odds."

[fromhell]

:Deasy tonnge to start with, but damn near impossible after 43.
this makes it exciting, just trying to survive.

[Highbury]

:Deasy tonnge to start with, but damn near impossible after 43.
this makes it exciting, just trying to survive.

Exactly why I prefer U-Boats in a game/sim.. the longer you survive the harder it gets. Perfect for an entertainment medium. With the Fleet Boats things got easier.. in a real war, this is what you want. In entertainment it is not what I want.

[HundertzehnGustav]

Same as flying Luftwaffe planes, 109, 110, 19. Ju88 or other...

[oscar19681]

I am sure some will take this the wrong way but I have a question, what’s the fascination with U-boats anyway. :hmmm: SH 2, SH 3 and SH 4 the U-boat add-on and now SH 5 all with U-boats. I know the U-boat was considered the best boat at the time by some, but really why does everyone like playing on the ‘Loosing Side’. By the end of 1943 the U-boats were nothing but an Iron Coffin with maybe a 20% chance of getting home again.

IMHO of course.

Hey dont get me wrond i like fleet boats in think they lool awsome.
But hey put a VIIC and a Gato class next to eachother and i need to say no more!

[Harry708]

Hey dont get me wrond i like fleet boats in think they lool awsome.
But hey put a VIIC and a Gato class next to eachother and i need to say no more!

You’re right the Gato does look Bigger, Nastier and more Lethal. :salute:

[Sailor Steve]

Did you by chance mean the "multiplayer" function?


:D



(sorry Steve, couldn't help myself):rotfl2:
I by chance did. How rude of you to notice.:oops:
:rotfl2::up:

[Letum]

You’re right the Gato does look Bigger, Nastier and more Lethal.



Gato....thats the one with the ice cream machine in it, right.
Real nasty and lethal, I bet! :rotfl2:

[Platapus]

But hey put a VIIC and a Gato class next to eachother and i need to say no more!


Well actually you do need to say more. The most important thing to say is that you really can't compare the Type VII with the Gato Fleet sub as both had different missions and operating environments. Not to mention that the Type VII was constructed in 1935 and the Gato in 1941.

There were some excellent discussions on this in a thread about "who had the best sub" a while back (use the search function if interested).

Here is the short answer: There was no best... only the best for that environment.

[HundertzehnGustav]

ah! head over to the SHIII section, the thread Platapus is talking about has just been dug out seconds ago.

meh, i say do not compare a Torpedo boat to an Aircraft carrier. Ya just plain Can't do thqt.

[Letum]

meh, i say do not compare a Torpedo boat to an Aircraft carrier. Ya just plain Can't do thqt.


Pfft! That's a cop-out.

All subs are made to travel to a destination, sink ships via torps and
escape via diving. We can compare them them against each other on
how well they do these things.

[Mikhayl]

In general I guess American players can relate more easily to US subs, while European players will relate more easily to German subs, or subs of their country for those who had some (Britain, Russia...).
Personally there's that, and I find the German sub more pretty, I'm aware that US subs were more efficient war machines but their design has less sex appeal IMO.

[Highbury]

Well in that sense I totally agree with Mikhail.. in terms of just liking the look of one vs the other, in the same way you would judge the looks of two cars, the U-Boat would win hands down for me.

And I still think in a gaming sense it is better, as the going gets worse and worse. Simply being in a simulated U-Boat service has an ever increasing difficulty variable built right in that you don't get with Fleet Boats. An ever strengthening enemy is totally the way to go in a game of this sort IMO.

[FIREWALL]

The points been made. Loooong transit, alot of torps, easy hunting.

To be honest what sim do's this sound like ?

Thank heavens for the Modders.

I still use disc for a drink coaster.

[Torplexed]

Seems like this ATO-PTO battle never ends. :O:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=11&pictureid=28

[Torplexed]

Pfft! That's a cop-out.

All subs are made to travel to a destination, sink ships via torps and
escape via diving. We can compare them them against each other on
how well they do these things.

I think the big difference is that submarines, unlike tanks and planes aren't really designed to slug it out with each other. You can see how a Tiger is clearly superior to a M4 Sherman based on the war record when they went head to head. Submarines fought the opposing sides ASW system for the most part. Obviously, the Germans had the more difficult battle over time given the massive resources the Allies poured into this field. Japan could never equal that.

[Méo]

Why U-boats?

For me, it is:

1- The feeling to be the Underdog against the British empire.

2- The feeling to be a Wolf (which could be greatly increased with wolfpacks).

3- U-boats got a lower profile, so it's easier to shadow convoys/ships at day and easier to perform surface attack at night.

4- While you're a predator in the early years, you struggle for survival as the war goes on.

[Highbury]

Seems like this ATO-PTO battle never ends. :O:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=11&pictureid=28

LOL another awesome one Torp

[Chef]

The German U-Boat fleet:

for starters it was the deadliest submarine warfare unit in the history of war, the Type VII u-boat has in fact been referred to as "the deadliest weapon of war ever devised" by more than one historian.

To be honest, almost as deadly to its own crews as it was to the Allies in numbers. In percentage, much deadlier to its own crews.

[Dowly]

To be honest, almost as deadly to its own crews as it was to the Allies in numbers. In percentage, much deadlier to its own crews.

Nooooo, the VII wasnt deadly to it's own crew, the allied ASW was deadly to the VII's crew. :hmmm:

[JScones]

I come from a very military family. At least one member in every generation dating back to at least the 1700s has served in a Commonwealth (British or Australian) Defence Force (including me) and fought in a major conflict.

So you'd think that I'd be interested in British military history...but I'm not. For some reason I have always found German WWII fascinating. Nothing political, mind you, moreso the equipment, tactics and discipline. And of course, the uniforms and rousing marches. Can't forget those.

My main fascination is actually with the Panzer Corps. The Ubootwaffe comes second. I'm more active with U-boats simply because SH3 is so replayable. Panzer Elite was the bees knees for me before then, but it's too old now, and the latest generation of Tanksims just don't hold the appeal (I thought Steel Fury was going to be a winner, but it seems to have died...unless I'm mistaken).

[Ducimus]

I am sure some will take this the wrong way but I have a question, what’s the fascination with U-boats anyway. :hmmm: SH 2, SH 3 and SH 4 the U-boat add-on and now SH 5 all with U-boats. I know the U-boat was considered the best boat at the time by some, but really why does everyone like playing on the ‘Loosing Side’. By the end of 1943 the U-boats were nothing but an Iron Coffin with maybe a 20% chance of getting home again.

IMHO of course.

Well, some people KNEW this topic would eventually draw a response from me. :O:

In my own words from a post a couple months ago:
For whatever reason, Uboats are probably one of the most, if not the most romanticized elements of WW2. The uboat story has been told and retold to such a degree, they've been stripped of most historical context, become completely neutral and sterile, laminated with western ideals and ideology, thought of morally as the shining knights of the sea, placed upon a pedestal and worshiped as Hero's, and lamented as the unfortunate martyrs in the tragedy that is war.

The movie Das Boot, and the Novel Iron Coffins, has a HUGE role in that here. Both book and movie are often taken at face value as the gospel truth by many here. Which leads me to another point. Something that's bound to cause a stir, It's something that was posted in private because the author was worried about a backlash. So I will not say who the author of this post is, and i know reposting it is not going to make me any friends (as if i've ever worried about that :haha: ), but it's such an awesome post on the subject, i can't resist:


As I have written before , I enjoy studying both theaters of the submarine wars. I have mutual respect for the both sides though I do acknowledge, unlike the fanboys, that there were dedicated Nazis within the u-boat arm. And that fact starts at the top, with Herr Dönitz...he did become the second Führer after all.

I have had the honor of corresponding with and talking with many u-boat veterans...some that are famous and others that are not. I was driven to at first to gain autographs from these men from history. I wanted to be able to ask hard questions and get a deeper understanding of the war from their point of view and to connect with those that I had only read about. To get a human side of a big part of the war. I am very grateful for their friendship and assistance. They opened my eyes to things I would never have understood otherwise.

To a man, they are all very glad that their Fatherland, Germany, lost the war. They speak fondly of their days in the service as most veterans do. The less famous u-boat veterans also feel honored to be remembered by someone such as myself who took the time and effort to locate their address and drop them a letter inquiring about their experiences. Those that are famous received literally hundreds of letters a weeks from folks.

I must say that these veterans don't think highly of Herbert Werner or Lothar-Günther Buchheim. Werner wrote his book in the late 1960s and was received with critical success. It became a bestseller world-wide for the frankness and anti-Nazi sentiments. Btw, the 1960s were the beginnings of apologist histories regarding the Nazi state. It is a fascinating memoir to read...and I use the word "memoir" loosely. The esteemed naval historian Dr. Jürgen Rohwer studied the memoir and compared its claims to facts. Many of the instances Werner claims were personal experiences were actually borrowed from other people. Rohwer stated that if the factual errors were highlighted in red the book would "read as a bloodbath."

The success of Werner's Iron Coffins was not lost on Buchheim. Buchheim realized that the world might be ready for a novel of his 'experiences' on a u-boat...provided he add in the required anti-Nazi spin. It is a fine book and I have read it many times, but I am aware of the time and reason for its creation. Money. Nothing more...nothing less. Reinhard Hardegen has spoken bluntly about his dislike of Buchheim. In a nutshell, he states that Buchheim 'has only one god and it is money.' Hardegen also took strong objections to the wild party at the brothel before a patrol, the crew pissing on their captain, and the gun-incident where the captain has to keep his chief maschinist in check. None of these ever happened. Hardegen states that if a captain had to produce a pistol, then the situation was far beyond getting control. The respect towards Der Alte was too great for these things to happen.

Erich Topp said that I should look at Das Boot as factual with the boredom depicted...and then the excitement of action. But forget the rest. Karl-Friedrich Merten had a long standing feud with Buchheim towards his defining opus. The u-bootfarhrer organizations disowned both Werner and Buchheim. (Trust me, Werner is a cocky s.o.b. considering he didn't do anything as a skipper except survive.)

For more detailed study of the German u-boat in popular culture, read Michael Hadley's Count Not the Dead.

And for the claim of the u-boat arm being Nazi-free, that is something that can never be proven. Timothy Mulligan did a fine study on u-boat men in Neither Sharks nor Wolves. He dedicated a chapter 'proving' that the u-boat men weren't Nazis. Never mind the fact that once Dönitz succeeded Raeder as CinC of the Kriegsmarine the Nazi salute soon became the official salute. Yeah, I know some would say big whoopdee-doo.

Here's the fact that Mulligan nor anyone else has been able to explain away. Millions joined the Nazi party in the 1930s (mandated by law or whatever). Out of those, a vast major believed in the basic tenets of National Socialism. Most of the party members were those skilled laborers that eventually became the backbone of the u-boat arm....machinists, mechanics, etc.

Those that enlisted were required (by Admiral Raeder) to resign their membership in the National Socialist party thereby creating a "Nazi-free" Kriegsmarine. But here's the problem...they may have resigned their membership, but did they truly resign their belief in the ideology of the Nazi party? I say no. There are ample cases of those with definite Nazi leanings within the u-boat service (Wolfgang Lüth, Joachim Schepke, Ulrich Abel and his vilification of Oskar Kusch who was eventually executed for statements against the party, Günther Prien, etc.)

For years, u-boat enthusiasts have paid no attention to "the men behind the curtain" but once you strip away the romantiscm, you are left staring at a grim reality...a reality that isn't as nice to cuddle up with.

I'll conclude this long-winded post with an anecdote told to me by Erich Topp on a phone call I had with him in 2000. Herrn Topp told me about a train ride he had with publisher Ted Savas. He told me that the train was moving along through night and it was quiet. Mr. Savas noticed that Topp seemed rather pensive and asked if he could know what he was thinking. Topp leaned forward and said that he was thinking that after Topp was dead, he would only be remembered for one thing. And it bothered him deeply that none of his post-war accomplishments would be remembered. Only the ugly parts.

And it turns out, at least at SubSsim, he was right.

I search for truth...not things that prop up what I believe/want to be true. I have to admit that it was difficult to let the myths go, but I have a better understanding of the u-boat war now than I did then.



I probably just set myself up for crucifiiction, but.. meh, won't be the first time. :yawn:

[urfisch]

personally, i came across uboats due to the film "das boot", as i watched the tv mini series in 1985. after that i read the book "iron coffins" and got addicted to this topic.

cant say, what it really is about the boats. but its a very special weapon and there are very special crews in it. you are all alone with 50 men in this steel cigar. far away from home, beneath your boat, just hundrets or thousands meters of water. and above also just water. its different to normal ships on surface. the small room you have, no personal area for yourself, no daylight for most of the crew...and for all of these reasons, a great and uncomparable comradeship.

its simply fascinating...

[IanC]

Some of those veterans probably put down those two books because they showed their vulnerable side? Like fear during depth charge attacks, some incompetent decisions etc... Also I always considered those two books more anti-war, rather than anti-nazi.
This may sound a little simplified, but I think those two books are still the best out there (or among the best out there).

[goldorak]

Apart from the fact that the German subs were the most famous ones, the German Atlantic campaign gives me the most variation and challenge.

/personal opinion

Yes but when you start having 3 episodes revolving around the same theater it becomes stale very quickly. SH 2, 3 and 5. Some new blood is needed, and put WWII behind. Explore WW I, the cold war, anything except WW II.
History didn't start and end there, its beyond stupid to have games or simulations that are stuck in that time period.
During the late ninties software houses were exploring the whole 20th century, not only in sub sims, naval sims, flight sims. Then everything started to fossilize on WWII. FPS and simulations. Enough is enough. Just how many fricking times can you play an uboat in the middle of the atlantic ? :rolleyes:
Ubisoft grow a pair of @@ and leave WWII behind, start exploring the early cold war for instance.

[Highbury]

Yes but when you start having 3 episodes revolving around the same theater it becomes stale very quickly. SH 2, 3 and 5. Some new blood is needed, and put WWII behind. Explore WW I, the cold war, anything except WW II.
History didn't start and end there, its beyond stupid to have games or simulations that are stuck in that time period.

..........


For alot of people, if they can bring something new to the WWII era or make it better each time, then they will never get bored of it. I think if SHV was going to just be just like SHIV in the Atlantic you would see much less enthusiasm for it.

[Mikhayl]

Very interesting stuff Duci, who was that? That's funny for me because I remember, when I was something like 11, went to the shop with my parents who were OK to buy me a new videogame. On the shelf there were Silent Hunter and Aces of the Deep. The pictures on the back of the box of Aces looked better, but I thought "no way I'm playing a German, yuk", so I picked Silent Hunter to play the real heroes :D

Now I'm still under no illusion at all regarding the proportion of actual nazis in the u-boat arm, anyway nazi or not they picked the wrong side. But I think it's like Jaesen, seriously, you have to admit that German/Nazi gear was overall quite sexy. Guns, planes, u-boats, battleships, fancy uniforms, badass looking tanks etc. That and the "underdog" feeling usually makes a good game experience. That and living in France I'm more familiar with Brest, Lorient etc than with Pearl Harbour and the rest, it's easier to relate to.

Oh yeah and maybe one day we'll have a good SH in WWI :yawn:

[REIS]

I am sure some will take this the wrong way but I have a question, what’s the fascination with U-boats anyway. :hmmm: SH 2, SH 3 and SH 4 the U-boat add-on and now SH 5 all with U-boats. I know the U-boat was considered the best boat at the time by some, but really why does everyone like playing on the ‘Loosing Side’. By the end of 1943 the U-boats were nothing but an Iron Coffin with maybe a 20% chance of getting home again.

IMHO of course.
because u-boats was the best submarines of that time, because i was very well trained crews, because it was one of the most extremely dangerous missions ever. Noone like to play when they allways win, we like hardcore when it's very, very hard! Because when it's very hard - it's almost heroic. Hen there flying 1000ds of planes searching for ya, when there 1000ds of destroyers seekeng for ya, and you are alone, in the deep cold waters of atlantic, and you have only one chanse to survive, you can do no mistakes at all, only one chanse to shoot, and you go deeper, DEEPER CAPITAN, DEEPER!

[HMS Astute]

It's a myriad of factors really, but the most prominent period of unrestricted submarine warfare historically is naturally going to get a lot of attention from developers and sim fans alike.

I'd love to sea a subsim based on nuclear fast attack subs and boomers with the depth of SH3, but I don't think Ubi would bother.

The casual market they seem to be trying to target tend to be geared towards extremely action orientated game play, not the type of people who would be keen on running launch drills, tracking fleets and evading enemy subs for example.

Unless you venture into the realms of fantasy, you can't really get an action orientated (by action i mean the type of action that appeals to a mass market gamer, ie, blowing stuff up ;)) subsim based on anything other than WWII or WWI.

Edit: Trust me to miss the point :oops:

[McBeck]

You’re right the Gato does look Bigger, Nastier and more Lethal. :salute:
The Gato is 95m and the VIIC is 67m

[IanC]

The Gato is 95m and the VIIC is 67m

Size doesn't matter (and no, that's not what my wife said).

[trynnallen]

I am sure some will take this the wrong way but I have a question, what’s the fascination with U-boats anyway. :hmmm: SH 2, SH 3 and SH 4 the U-boat add-on and now SH 5 all with U-boats. I know the U-boat was considered the best boat at the time by some, but really why does everyone like playing on the ‘Loosing Side’. By the end of 1943 the U-boats were nothing but an Iron Coffin with maybe a 20% chance of getting home again.

I got introduced to subs at the tender age of 7 when my family was invited for a tour of a LA class sub that docked at Norfolk. It was neat, but it wasn't any neater than the USS Arkansas (saw her commissioning), or the USS Nimitz. In fact the two surface ships had a lot going for them that the sub didn't. Subs faded from memory until 1982 (we were stationed in Oslo by then). When as a school we ended spending two days in the bomb shelters under the school because the Swedes and the Soviets were playing dodge'm with live ordience down in Stockholm harbor. This was the "Whiskey on the Rocks" incident. Fast forward to 1989 and my Junior year in H.S. my thesis paper for history (Because our history teacher was a mean S*B who believed that the only way to teach history was to use a metiphorical pick axe and jam it into the students brain. You learned, but it wasn't fun or interesting.) was the Pacfic war, I just had to find a topic. On the fifth attempt to get my thesis approved I had stumbled on the Pacific Submarine War. This hooked me. It was something I could bite into more to the point it was something my teacher knew nothing about and while I couldn't baffle him with BS I could out think him. Subs followed me through college and grad school. If I ever needed a handy topic in US history it was there for me. In grad school it was useful as a good means to get into the US Navy Achieves on their closed days.

But all of the subsims except SH2 I just couldn't get into much. Not because they weren't good, they were, but because I couldn't play the Allies. I have really nothing against the U-boat arm, but I can't "suspend my disbelief" to make the sim fun. I have the same problem with TIE fighter, Fighting Steel, and other FPS or sims that I have to play on the "bad" side. I can play the game it just doesn't hold much interest or hold it for long.

That being said, I would love to play the Brits in SH4 or SH5 or even the Italians in the Med. The Med I think is vastly underutilized for siming. Yes it mostly ends by 1943, but even after that it wasn't exactly a safe place to steam.

[fromhell]

Yes but when you start having 3 episodes revolving around the same theater it becomes stale very quickly. SH 2, 3 and 5. Some new blood is needed, and put WWII behind. Explore WW I, the cold war, anything except WW II.
History didn't start and end there, its beyond stupid to have games or simulations that are stuck in that time period.
During the late ninties software houses were exploring the whole 20th century, not only in sub sims, naval sims, flight sims. Then everything started to fossilize on WWII. FPS and simulations. Enough is enough. Just how many fricking times can you play an uboat in the middle of the atlantic ? :rolleyes:
Ubisoft grow a pair of @@ and leave WWII behind, start exploring the early cold war for instance.
sorry matey, but uboat warfare ww2 and all the diffferent technologies that came about to defeat the uboat, makes for exciting stuff.:rock:

[Brag]

What are we gonna sinkl in early Cold War?

Refrigerator ships? :D

[frau kaleun]

Size doesn't matter (and no, that's not what my wife said).

It ain't the size of the boat, it's the motion of the ocean! At least that's what all the little dinghies say. :O:

[IanC]

:haha: :roll:

[GertFroebe_neu]

I think u-boats are like space ships that are surrounded by a hostile environment, but they contain a completly autarkic living environment. Also they can make themselves invisible, which is really cool.

What is also cool is that the u-boat is a technological monster which brain is a human hirarchical structure.

That is why u-boats fascinate me. :)


PS.: And they look cool (Type VII)!

[urfisch]

hey marc!

nice to see you here...finally.

:)

the german ubi forums are not the best place to get new infos, right?

:03:

:salute:

[Brag]

It ain't the size of the boat, it's the motion of the ocean! At least that's what all the little dinghies say. :O:

Dingha, dingha ding ding with a twirl :D

[goldorak]

sorry matey, but uboat warfare ww2 and all the diffferent technologies that came about to defeat the uboat, makes for exciting stuff.:rock:

Yeah, and what is Ubisoft going to do ?
Go back and forth between the atlantic and pacific theaters for the next 10 iterations of the Silent Hunter series ? :shifty:
I have no problem with WW2 sims. I just think that fossilizing on this historical period is a waste of time, since many sims (not counting SH I/II/III/IV and V) have already tackled this period. There is only so much you can do to milk the same exact product. I bet SH V will sell nowhere near what SH III sold and why is that ? Because you get the exact same simulation (albeit with some prettier graphics, less playable uboats and a 50% reduction in the dynamic campaign). As I said time for Ubisoft to explore new concepts.


Destroyer Command redux maybe ?
Cold War scenarios with fictional dynamic campaigns a la Falcon 4 ?
Study sim for a specific sub a la Sierra Fast Attack
etc....


The possibilities are endless.

[Platapus]

Yeah, and what is Ubisoft going to do ?
Go back and forth between the atlantic and pacific theaters for the next 10 iterations of the Silent Hunter series ? :shifty:

There is always WWI. :D

Lothar de la Periere sinking 194 ships for almost 500K tons mostly with his deck gun aint too shabby. :yeah:

[Task Force]

If sh5 was a fleetboat sim, I probably would have little intrest in it... I never have been intrested in the American/PTO stuff... Mainly in the european/atlanic stuff.

I perfer the uboat war because it goes from easyer to Extremly deadly in the later years. Also the large amount of traffic, and how that the allies started realy pounding the uboats...

[Ducimus]

That and living in France I'm more familiar with Brest, Lorient etc than with Pearl Harbour and the rest, it's easier to relate to.


That is completely understandable. As WW2 goes, people are generally only interested in stuff that actually involved their country. My theory is the pacific theater is largely ignored because it doesn't sell units in Europe. Few there would be interested since the PTO was largely US vs Japan.

I don't think its any coincidence that the majority of movies and games, involve the European theater. The bottom line is money, by making a Pacific oriented product, movie/game makers would be limiting their potental profits because few in European market would give a damn about anything that doesn't involve their own nations history. Factor this in, with the uboat hype, romance, and myth's, and their you have it. More uboats. Do you realize that the last PTO game outside of SH4 in this series was SH1? That was 14 years ago. In the mean time, we've seen two Uboat games with another on the way. For someone like me who grew up reading the stories of US submariners exploits and this great chapter of my nations history, toured museum boats, and has been to the ports some of these boats sailed out of, - it really sucks.

[Alex]

That is completely understandable. As WW2 goes, people are generally only interested in stuff that actually involved their country. My theory is the pacific theater is largely ignored because it doesn't sell units in Europe. Few there would be interested since the PTO was largely US vs Japan.

I agree with you.
And I understand your statements in some way. That's right : U-Boote are able to catch anyone's attention throughout the world, while the US navy (and SH4) mainly interest american people, and those who really want some graphical improvement over SH3 that is actually showing its age.

Why ?
I can't give a proper answer to this question. I just can't see how the &$@%! more people can relate to U-Boote than to US Navy boats. It was not up to GWX nor to anyone to choose to attract more players than SH4, TMO, RFB, or OM.

[off-topic]

For some reason all people seem to appreciate Europe and France more than any other country. I don't like that. :-? (:stare:)
When I visit Paris I actually don't feel like I'm in my own country any more, absorbed in this mixture of so many nationalities. :nope:
Just being honest here.
That is another subject though. :stare:

[/off-topic]

[CptCrunch]

I sympathise with our American friends. Many of them can't understand the fascination with U-Boats (or the British need to reclaim the letters 's' & 'u' :DL).
After all America fought and won the only major submarine victory in history. America achieved against Japan what Germany set out to do against Britain and failed. Technically speaking her intervention in the war also won the battle of the Atlantic. The lend-lease ships and the sheer industrial might of America made her able to provide vast quantities of mass produced radars, asdic sets and degaussing cable quickly to combat the U-Boat threat. Whereas Nazi Germany with its intense distrust of science lost her early technical advantage of superior boats and for most of the war the U-Boat fleets fought a courageous rearguard action. Even thought the U-Boat was effectively neutralised as a major threat by late '43. These boats still tied up a huge amount of allied resources right up to the last day of the war and effectively prolonged the war for Germany. Had German scientists and resources been applied earlier to U-Boat development it is quite likely that operational true submarines such as the type XXIII & XX1 would have turned the tide of European war in Germany's favour. Also these later submarines were the design basis for all modern subs today - a huge technological tribute to German thoroughness.
As a European obviously my interest lies in this theatre. Also as a Brit who's father served on destroyers I'm acutely aware how this country stood alone in the early years of the war and overcame incredible odds against its survival. How close we came to defeat and how much science and sheer good luck played in this never ceases to amaze me. The German air-force and u-boat arm came within a hairs breadth of defeating us and it was only due to the corrupt and fanatical political system that issued their orders that they were not able to press their advantage home. The U-Boat arm was fairly soon into the war the only effective operational branch of the Kreigsmarine remaining and carried the burden of Germany's marine war right to the end. So many brave people were lost on both sides in the Atlantic theatre - around 30,000 for each of the u-boat, British merchant marine and Royal Navy plus the hundreds of thousands of nationals of all the other Allied countries and so many resources wee dedicated to the u-boat threat that this remains one of the most significant naval military engagements in history.
As far as game play goes I find the smaller intenser European theatre of SH3 more engaging. I like SH4 for a lot of reasons but trekking across 4000 miles of ocean, although an incredible long range achievement by the US, just to engage a few ships doesn't do it for me- if ever a game needed a teleporter it's SH4!
So yeah it's U-Boats for me although I also wouldn't mind the chance of playing the allied side:DL

[GertFroebe_neu]

hey marc!

nice to see you here...finally.

:)

the german ubi forums are not the best place to get new infos, right?

:03:

:salute:

Exactly! :)

cheers
Marc

[Alex]

@ Neal & moderators : This post has nothing to do there, delete it if you like.

Woa. I live in Paris, my step mother is from Madagascar, my little brother is "mixed race" and my girlfriend is of Arab origin and our children will be "mixed race" too, and guess what, we all have the French nationality and we're all really sorry to break it to you :shifty:

I see/hear that **** everyday and I really wish it wouldn't spill on subsim.

For some reason I was expecting a reply from you, man. Don't know why. ;)

Let's keep it public for now.

Feel free to consider my last post as **** and narrow-mindedness, Mike. You know very well no one has forced you to read it nor to reply it. I don't even consider replying a post that I regard as ****. Care to tell me that what I said is wrong, maybe ?

What are you saying actually ? Radical cultural sensitivity be damned ?
And what are you expecting from me now. Apologizing for saying what I truly think, since it's fashionable to say "I'm not racist !" publicly nowadays ? Or "sorry for loving my origins, sorry for being against the dismantling of my heritage", maybe ? :DL

Don't worry about that.
According to current birthrate projections, France would indeed be in majority a muslim country in about fifty years, but something tells me that nobody would be breaking out any champagne.
Speaking for myself, not being against people having different origins means I'm not racist, yet it doesn't mean I don't like my ******* blood any more, man.

Also, I didn't have the slightest clue where you, your aunt or your great uncle's brother-in-law come from (j/k). And I must say that I've always appreciated you, your knowledge, humor and person much, man. Both of us being french, I don't know why we didn't get to know each other a bit more until now, that's not very nice but, well, that's the way it is. Though if we don't get to know each other in the future, I'll know that's why my honesty's not appreciated much. But, of course, that will NOT mean you are racist against french people who are feeling lost now in their own country.
Sorry for doing away with the protocole.

[End of this off-topic chit-chat. PM if you ever wish to pursue talking :)]

[Uber Gruber]

Woa. I live in Paris, my step mother is from Madagascar, my little brother is "mixed race" and my girlfriend is of Arab origin and our children will be "mixed race" too, and guess what, we all have the French nationality and we're all really sorry to break it to you :shifty:

I see/hear that **** everyday and I really wish it wouldn't spill on subsim.

Totaly agree....most countries are a mash of all sorts of cultures. The US for example is full of European descendents of many nationalities, race, colour, creed, political stance...well you get the picture.

There is only ONE decent race of humans.....and thats the HUMAN RACE IN ITS ENTIRETY.....anyone who thinks otherwise is a twat!

[joeljansson]

Apart from the fact that the German subs were the most famous ones, the German Atlantic campaign gives me the most variation and challenge.

/personal opinion
thats what i think too:DL

[kptn_kaiserhof]

my fasination starts with my cousin serving in the navy i geuss

because hes the head chef

[AVGWarhawk]

Seems like this ATO-PTO battle never ends. :O:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=11&pictureid=28


Awesome!

[AVGWarhawk]

Though important, US subs played a limited role in the Pacific Theater. Without the submarines participating, the results of this campaign would have still ended the same.

In the Atlantic, U-boats were the main protagonists on the German side and for a little while (1941-1942), threatened to nullify British naval supremacy.

In SH-3, the frustration of a U-boat commander is duplicated as after expending one's torpedoes one watches the convoy continue toward their destination.

Never mind the hammering from destroyers.

The U-boat crews fought a heroic contest and got close to changing history.


Where did you come up with that hub-bub. bub? :hmmm:

[Ducimus]

Though important, US subs played a limited role in the Pacific Theater. Without the submarines participating, the results of this campaign would have still ended the same.

In the Atlantic, U-boats were the main protagonists on the German side and for a little while (1941-1942), threatened to nullify British naval supremacy.

In SH-3, the frustration of a U-boat commander is duplicated as after expending one's torpedoes one watches the convoy continue toward their destination.

Never mind the hammering from destroyers.

The U-boat crews fought a heroic contest and got close to changing history.

Ok, I had already spoke my piece and was going to let it all go, but since this was just pointed out....

I'll just state a few facts missing here, and leave my opinions to my other post:

Fact 1:
The US submarine force, all volunteers, comprised of less then 2% of US naval personnel deployed in the pacific. Some sources cite, they were 1.6% of all US naval personal in the Pacific

Fact 2:
Those 1.6%, did this:
http://www.ducimus.net/sh415/pto/graph.jpg


Fact 3:
1 in 5 US Submariners lost their lives in the line of duty.

Fact 4:
The Submarine campaign in the pacific did alter the outcome of a few battles, (See USS harders 5th war patrol for the most famous example) and did indeed strangle the life line of Japan.


It's ok to have a theater preference, but really man, educate yourself.

[psykopatsak]

the thing that makes SH4 (im keeping to the PTO, not the game interface and such now) so extremly boring is that first you have to travel across a quarter of the globe jus to get close to enemy shipping.

then at first you wont kill anything as your torpedoes suck, and then just leg it home, provided you werent attacked by a destroyer, in wich case you must dodge it first, and hope you dont accidentally reach crush depth while crash diving. the depth charges are so off that its not really an issue.

late war you torpedo some random ships, and then dodge the occational destroyer, using the excact same boat to sink the excact same ships with now functioning torpedoes, and by now there are scarcly any destroyers left. then on your way home again! just a few more months!

[Task Force]

Yes but when you start having 3 episodes revolving around the same theater it becomes stale very quickly. SH 2, 3 and 5. Some new blood is needed, and put WWII behind. Explore WW I, the cold war, anything except WW II.
History didn't start and end there, its beyond stupid to have games or simulations that are stuck in that time period.
During the late ninties software houses were exploring the whole 20th century, not only in sub sims, naval sims, flight sims. Then everything started to fossilize on WWII. FPS and simulations. Enough is enough. Just how many fricking times can you play an uboat in the middle of the atlantic ? :rolleyes:
Ubisoft grow a pair of @@ and leave WWII behind, start exploring the early cold war for instance.

They wont... Because it would affect sales...

WW1= small intrest, overshadowed by WW2

Cold war= Too complex for people who just want to sink stuff. (average gamers.

WW2= Larger intrest feild, not as complex as cold war, but still not too east.

[Kretschmer the IV]

it's fascinating because the Kaleuns had balls.

i read many books so far about Uboot Krieg and the crew and the Kaleuns were very brave soldiers.
Often i imagine myself at their position, i would **** my pants.

Like some Kaleun, i do not know his name any more, observed the corridor from gibraltar to the mediteran sea. Battleships with destroyerescorts and a carrier. He decided to attack.. One Uboot against all...

I mean they were ******** heroes! And at the beginning of the war they behaved like knights, ritterlich, the helped out the survivors of wrecked ships. Gave them food, maps, maybe a compass, send a funktelegram on public frequency about survivors.

But the war moved on and this ritterlichkeit vanished and all ended up .. you know the rest ..

that's my opinion

[thruster]

no disrespect to WW2 USN submarine service, but:
whilst each service developed their boats to suit their area of ops, the uboats [esp the type 7 series] were the quintessential 'submarine' of the era. i suggest that the reason the US boats were allowed to do so well was due to the IJN ASW ineptitude and inefficiency, and the sheer size of the AO. a US boat makes a german Type 9 look like a stealth fighter, a US boat wouldnt survive its first contact in the atlantic even in 1940.

whilst the US had a field day as the war progressed [biggest challenge actually finding targets], the uboats fought a totally aggressive adversary that became far more effective as the war progressed. personally, im saddened by the loss of all submariners, that said, the KM lost >3/4 of their uboat personnel, it became a gamble just to clear the bay of biscay and reach their AO. despite that they remained loyal to their mission to the very end.

from a gaming perspective and the challenge in gameplay, i cannot see any point in modelling the PTO at the expense of perfecting the ATO, or even the Med.

[Task Force]

I also feel its time for a U boat sim on a up dated engine... which SH4 has...

even tho I think sh3 has better UI & its wave look more ocean like, not like crumpled up tin foil...

[Ducimus]

it's fascinating because the Kaleuns had balls.


And i suppose thats insinuating nobody else did eh?

Well, you boys have fun romancing myth's (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1245352&postcount=47) that were ultimately propagated by ego, want of money, and a dash of proxy negationism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_revisionism_(negationism)). Ignorance is bliss as they say.

[JU_88]

I guess the facsination with U-boats, is due to their role in the most well-known/ most talked about submarine campaign in history.

In a nut shell - Fame.

[Kretschmer the IV]

And i suppose thats insinuating nobody else did eh?

Nah, it is not.
I just meant that the german navy knew all about their losses and they have done their duty like on 1st day of war.
And the mentioned aggressivness while attacking a convoy, surfacing in the middle of it and things like, entering scapa flow.
Thats brave, say what you want.

[AVGWarhawk]

I guess the facsination with U-boats, is due to their role in the most well-known/ most talked about submarine campaign in history.

In a nut shell - Fame.


I would say the VII is famous. The VII is the most recognizable u of the war by most people. The fame aspect has nothing to do with the role of the U IMO. As far as the most talked about campaign in history, I would agree. But that talk is amongst those that are really interested. If it were not for folks here I would never talk about uboats. It never comes up in conversation. However, if I show a picture of a VII most will tell you it is a German U-boat.

As for fleets, it was the silent service. Not because the subs were quiet, know one spoke of their areas of patrol. It is unfortunate the silent part continued after the war. Much lost for those that are interested.

[Jimbuna]

I'll admit my preference is for the ATO but having read so many books on WWII submarine warfare (and in particular I will cite the three Clay Blair volumes....Hitler's U-boat War v1 and 2 as well as Silent Victory) I am of the firm belief that both the Ubootwaffe and the US Navy had a major impact in their respective theatre of operations.

Different theatres, tactics, equipment, opposition etc. etc.

Tis pointless trying to compare apples with pears.

As Chris has rightly pointed out, the US didn't feel the need to publish masses of material early post war which ultimately led to a lack of public understanding....mores the pity.

[AVGWarhawk]

I'll admit my preference is for the ATO but having read so many books on WWII submarine warfare (and in particular I will cite the three Clay Blair volumes....Hitler's U-boat War v1 and 2 as well as Silent Victory) I am of the firm belief that both the Ubootwaffe and the US Navy had a major impact in their respective theatre of operations.

Different theatres, tactics, equipment, opposition etc. etc.

Tis pointless trying to compare apples with pears.

As Chris has rightly pointed out, the US didn't feel the need to publish masses of material early post war which ultimately led to a lack of public understanding....mores the pity.

Jim,

Repective countries you and I live seemingly dictates our interests. The ATO was in England's backyard, frontyard and alleys. Naturally this is of interest to you. Family members who fought so forth and so on. Same deal with me. It is sad that the silent service was silent after the war. But I think we can say the spoils go to the victor meaning the losers are now an open book for all to see, read and write about. For the victors, how it was done and with what tools is not for public knowledge. Plus, Russia was not being to friendly after WW2. We witnessed what became of that. As time progresses a bit more comes to light on the submarines. The archives are available to anyone who is interested in reading about it.

[karamazovnew]

I love all subs, don't care about their origin.

WW1:
- check out the total tonnage that some of the Kaleuns achieved. Most were with the deck gun but still... rudimentary aiming, poor performance, slacky ASW, a great game potential.

WW2:
- japanese: fighting warships is hard, it would be a very tense campaign
- americans: superb boats, amazing war-start. The big Pacific might be boring, but lying down in a crowded straight is never dull :arrgh!:
- germans: best enemy, best campaign progression from easy to suicide (well, not in SH5), most beautiful boats.

[Jimbuna]

Jim,

Repective countries you and I live seemingly dictates our interests. The ATO was in England's backyard, frontyard and alleys. Naturally this is of interest to you. Family members who fought so forth and so on. Same deal with me. It is sad that the silent service was silent after the war. But I think we can say the spoils go to the victor meaning the losers are now an open book for all to see, read and write about. For the victors, how it was done and with what tools is not for public knowledge. Plus, Russia was not being to friendly after WW2. We witnessed what became of that. As time progresses a bit more comes to light on the submarines. The archives are available to anyone who is interested in reading about it.

Rgr that matey http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/thumbsup.gif