Haiti earthquake - hell on earth

[SteamWake]

48 photos some of the first from the scene.

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2010/01/earthquake_in_haiti.html

When my wife told me Haiti had been struck by an earthquake I knew it was going to be bad. Ive been there and know what the buildings and citys were like. Worst case scenario.

[Skybird]

Already a hell even without earthquakes.

[Snestorm]

Hope the whether holds back for a-while.
No shelter, very limmited food, probably no drinking water, and a traumitized population.
This is going to take a massive effort, and it has to move fast.
A real Mission Impossible situation that has to be dealt with.

[GoldenRivet]

Looks the same as it usually does... only now everything is knocked over.

hope the recovery is swift and sure.

best of luck to them.

[AVGWarhawk]

I can assure you the US is responding. Currently the Port au Prince A/P is functioning but only three flights a day. The tower is destroyed. VFR daylight flights only. USAID is responding.

[Snestorm]

I can assure you the US is responding. Currently the Port au Prince A/P is functioning but only three flights a day. The tower is destroyed. VFR daylight flights only. USAID is responding.

Ja. Hillary was on the danish news shortly after the event.
Wasn't she on the US news?

[Torvald Von Mansee]

I presume every power in the region is responding.

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess the USNS Comfort is steaming there as fast as it can, if it was at its home port of Baltimore. A whole lot of staff will probably disappear from the naval hospital at Bethesda.

[Schroeder]

The German THW has already sent in an advance party to check the situation and guide the aid where it's needed the most (they could just mark the island and say: There!).

[SteamWake]

If you look through all the photos you will see some forces being mobilized from Korea, the UK, the US and some others.

I think they know by now to not wait on the UN but to just go ahead and do something.

[AVGWarhawk]

The place is a mess. USAID is on it. This is what USAID does.

[Platapus]

Heard about this while at work. One of my co-workers said that hundreds of thousands of people may be dead. Terrible. :(

[MothBalls]

It's great to see the world reacting so quickly and coordinating aid efforts. No matter how much they do, it won't be enough, but at least they are helping.

In another way it's sad to see that the US can respond to everyone else so quickly at the same time we leave our own citizens [Katrina] without help for days, even more in some cases.

[longam]

What is really tragic is the fact that there whole infrastructure is in shambles, including the 3 hospitals, water, electric, sewage.

God help them recover.

[GoldenRivet]

It's great to see the world reacting so quickly and coordinating aid efforts. No matter how much they do, it won't be enough, but at least they are helping.

In another way it's sad to see that the US can respond to everyone else so quickly at the same time we leave our own citizens [Katrina] without help for days, even more in some cases.

agreed.

and i lay 100% of the blame on two sorry ass people for the whole Katrina thing.

Governor Blanco

Mayor Nagin

The Federal Government from The President down were ALL OVER the two of them to get rolling and they barely bothered to get off the couch.

so who gets the blame?

Bush

im no big Bush fan... but any old fool can see he caught a lot of misplaced anger and flak for that whole Katrina thing. The Feds did their job on that one... their only failure IMHO was Michael D. Brown being the FEMA director... should have had someone with more emergency management experience in that job.

Katrina... like Haiti, are disasters in more ways than one.

it will take a lot of time to bounce back from such an event... especially for such a poverty ridden place like Haiti

[Nicolas]

I feel bad for this. Some reports says could be more than 100.000 victims, Haiti is the poorest country in america, life expectation is only 53 years :nope:, let see from what wood we and our politicians are made from, i wish they send big big help. One thing i can do is to call one of those paid phone numbers to help with a couple of dollars, if you saw some way to donate do it. It can help a lot.

[OneToughHerring]

With situations like this it's always the first few hours that are most critical, after that it's only stragglers that come ouf of the ruins. There should be help on standby pretty much all the time when it comes to earth quake prone areas.

[Méo]

Very interesting link SteamWake, thanks.

How uncomfortable it is to see those photos and feeling powerless...:-?:cry:

[Happy Times]

What is really tragic is the fact that there whole infrastructure is in shambles, including the 3 hospitals, water, electric, sewage.

God help them recover.
Where any of those working before the quake, the place is a mess to begin with...
After the acute situation is over, further help should come with strict conditions.
But we will probably see the aid being stolen and hunreds of thousands claiming to need a refuge in NA or Europe.

[Spoon 11th]

Tragicle on a big scale.

[Oberon]

Apparently the Carl Vinson is on the way so that should help boost the helo ability in the area, since most of the roads are most likely shot to bits what'll be needed is good airlifting ability. Also the USS Bataan is on its way with a Marine expeditionary unit, which should help with feet on the ground.
It was quite a shallow quake too by the sounds of it, and the epicenter was close to the capital, hence the devastation.

I heard a figure of 500,000 estimated dead on the World Service last night, but that seems to have been reduced to 'tens of thousands', but even so...that's a unconceivably large amount of people.
It's not going to be pretty down there over the coming months. Not at all.

[frau kaleun]

Posted this in another thread but will do so here as well - you can donate $10 to the Red Cross for relief efforts in Haiti by texting the word HAITI to 90999 (http://www.redcross.org/portal/site/en/menuitem.94aae335470e233f6cf911df43181aa0/?vgnextoid=15c0c5a210826210VgnVCM10000089f0870aRCR D) if you are so inclined.

[AVGWarhawk]

My day started early...currently I have 96 loads of relief supplies heading to Homestead FL for airlift to Haiti. :yeah: I will be moving more supplies as the day progresses. Currently looking to add an Antonov 225 to the arena. This baby can carry a lot...140 tons. It is at it's home base in Kiev. If they want it we will go after it! We fired up that baby for Pago Pago. BTW, FEMA has been shipping relief supplies to Pago Pago since the water hit. Never hear that on the news do you? I think we sent a generator for every lightbulb on the island of Pago Pago. Rest assured there are thousands that will be up for the next 24 hours straight+ getting supplies to Haiti. I will be one of them! :yeah:

Back to work. :yeah:

[frau kaleun]

:salute:

[Dowly]

Chris, bring me milk while you're at it! I'm all out of milk! :wah:

[AVGWarhawk]

Chris, bring me milk while you're at it! I'm all out of milk! :wah:

Need a disaster first. Then USAID needs to get involved who in turn calls on FEMA. Then your MRE with dried milk is on the way.


Right now I have another 127 trailers going to load in Fort Worth headed to Homestead when loading is complete. That will be 223 53' vans loaded with supplies for Haiti.

Off I go. :salute:

[August]

Need a disaster first. Then USAID needs to get involved who in turn calls on FEMA. Then your MRE with dried milk is on the way.


Right now I have another 127 trailers going to load in Fort Worth headed to Homestead when loading is complete. That will be 223 53' vans loaded with supplies for Haiti.

Off I go. :salute:

God bless you and your colleagues for the good work you do.

[OneToughHerring]

My day started early...currently I have 96 loads of relief supplies heading to Homestead FL for airlift to Haiti. :yeah: I will be moving more supplies as the day progresses. Currently looking to add an Antonov 225 to the arena. This baby can carry a lot...140 tons. It is at it's home base in Kiev. If they want it we will go after it! We fired up that baby for Pago Pago. BTW, FEMA has been shipping relief supplies to Pago Pago since the water hit. Never hear that on the news do you? I think we sent a generator for every lightbulb on the island of Pago Pago. Rest assured there are thousands that will be up for the next 24 hours straight+ getting supplies to Haiti. I will be one of them! :yeah:

Back to work. :yeah:

Keep up the good work. :up:

[Snestorm]

Need a disaster first. Then USAID needs to get involved who in turn calls on FEMA. Then your MRE with dried milk is on the way.


Right now I have another 127 trailers going to load in Fort Worth headed to Homestead when loading is complete. That will be 223 53' vans loaded with supplies for Haiti.

Off I go. :salute:

No 48 footers for the heavy stuff?
If the load is heavy (Canned goods and such) a 48' is good for 24 pallets, while a 53' should only be loaded with 22 pallets (or the trailer tandems will be overweight - especialy in Virginia, where the axels are required to be far forward).

For light loads, by all means, 53'ers are the way to go.

Good to see you on the job AVG.
You sure got a lot done in a little time.
I salute your abilities.

[Oberon]

Need a disaster first. :salute:

What are you talking about? This is Dowly!!

Seriously though, keep up the good work mate. :yeah:

[AVGWarhawk]

No 48 footers for the heavy stuff?
If the load is heavy (Canned goods and such) a 48' is good for 24 pallets, while a 53' should only be loaded with 22 pallets (or the trailer tandems will be overweight - especialy in Virginia, where the axels are required to be far forward).

For light loads, by all means, 53'ers are the way to go.

Good to see you on the job AVG.
You sure got a lot done in a little time.
I salute your abilities.

We get waivers in all the states. These are issued by FEMA. We can run heavy and run past the normal operating hours. Disasters do not know DOT regs nor care about them We are provided paperwork and my drivers blow through the scale houses. We use only 53 foot van. Most common these days. Looks like my trailers will be going to Haiti. BTW, I got current pics of the port...all cranes are down and the port is out of commission. I do not have time to post...sry

Now I working on 298 trailers out of Frederick MD and 197 out of Cumberland MD.

Back to work :salute:

[Snestorm]

We get waivers in all the states. These are issued by FEMA. We can run heavy and run past the normal operating hours. Disasters do not know DOT regs nor care about them We are provided paperwork and my drivers blow through the scale houses. We use only 53 foot van. Most common these days. Looks like my trailers will be going to Haiti. BTW, I got current pics of the port...all cranes are down and the port is out of commission. I do not have time to post...sry

Now I working on 298 trailers out of Frederick MD and 197 out of Cumberland MD.

Back to work :salute:

Great job!
Go get em, pal!

[SteamWake]

Some more images and a short video as well

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1243176/Haiti-earthquake-16-Brits-missing-horrifying-new-pictures-reveal-extent-destruction.html

Unbeleavably grim.

[AVGWarhawk]

Some images you will not see on the news. Cell phone shots of the port. Crane down and asphalt destroyed. We got these from our Maritime Partner in Haiti. Needless to say, cranes down, no unloading containers.

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q62/avgwarhawk/K800_DSC02043.jpg


http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q62/avgwarhawk/K800_DSC02005.jpg

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q62/avgwarhawk/K800_DSC01995.jpg


http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q62/avgwarhawk/K800_DSC01991.jpg

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q62/avgwarhawk/K800_DSC01982.jpg

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q62/avgwarhawk/K800_DSC01981.jpg

[Oberon]

Jesus Christ... :o

That is one wrecked port...how the devil are they going to get the containers off without working cranes? Are the relief crews bringing in some to help offload the aid? Or will the aid have to be repacked in easier to disembark units?

EDIT: Disregard some of that, I spotted the crane on the vessel, however the more cranes the better so my question still kind of applies.

[AVGWarhawk]

Jesus Christ... :o

That is one wrecked port...how the devil are they going to get the containers off without working cranes? Are the relief crews bringing in some to help offload the aid? Or will the aid have to be repacked in easier to disembark units?

EDIT: Disregard some of that, I spotted the crane on the vessel, however the more cranes the better so my question still kind of applies.

:up: Exactly. Crane on the boat and hand unload. Desperate times take desperate measures. My trailers are to be barged to the port. If there is a will, there is a way! I can guarantee you there is a will! :03:

[SteamWake]

:up: Exactly. Crane on the boat and hand unload. Desperate times take desperate measures. My trailers are to be barged to the port. If there is a will, there is a way! I can guarantee you there is a will! :03:

Hunger can be a good motivator. I wish them well and godspeed !

[Oberon]

Agreed, godspeed and good luck to them, and to you too AVG :salute:

[AVGWarhawk]

Totally screwed. The airport is shut! Currently my tasks for trailers to FL are on hold.

[MothBalls]

Totally screwed. The airport is shut! Currently my tasks for trailers to FL are on hold.
Why did they shut the airport? Bad timing.

Anyway, can't they unload in the DR and truck it over?

[Tribesman]

Why did they shut the airport? Bad timing.

Anyway, can't they unload in the DR and truck it over?
Unfortunately the obvious problem has come into play.
The docks are buggered because they had an earthquake, the roads are mainly impassable because they had an earthquake, if they were not impassable there was a shortage of vehicles even before they had an earthquake which is now even more acute, the airport is full because they had an earthquake and can't move the aid out of the airport and planes of aid are waiting unloaded on the apron which means the vital first response who should be getting to work are being diverted because they can't land anymore.
Plus of course damage to the airports tanks and planes having to circle a long time before landing means there are now lots of unloaded planes which cannot leave anyway as there is no fuel.

As for shipping stuff by road from the Republic, the bridges on the route have collapsed in the earthquake.

So I suppose the lesson is that despite the thoughts of....
I think they know by now to not wait on the UN but to just go ahead and do something......
which is noble in its intent, the thing they should know by now is get stuff ready, make supplies available for shipping , have funds on standby........
but get an assesment team in first to see who what where when and how.
It might seem like a waste of valuable time, but it is a complete waste of time to have food and medicine piled up doing nothing but taking up space and slowing access.

[AVGWarhawk]

Why did they shut the airport? Bad timing.

Anyway, can't they unload in the DR and truck it over?

Fuel sir! Fuel! You can fly in but not out. Plus, the aircraft on the ground are using room for any other aircraft to land. The FAA shut it down. The ports are buggered. So, operations will need to done off a carrier. I understand the military will be working the ports in hope of getting some parts of it operational. Further, there are total airports on Haiti. Two are asphalt and the others are dirt. Even if the other airport is operational the question is, can trucks get from one airport to the other? The country as you know is very poor and paved roads, etc. just do not exist.

[AVGWarhawk]

We have to understand one thing, during the Clinton administration Haiti was a special project for Bill. There was one problem, we dropped aid, Haitian gladly accepted only to have a thug steal it down the street. Clintons aid was a wash as a result. This will happen again with this emergency relief.

[Oberon]

Damn, the old third world dilemma, aid going to the wrong damn place.

Can't the USAF send in a couple of air refueling tankers and use them as a refueling point on the airport?

[AVGWarhawk]

It is the same old dilemma with aid. Survival of the fittest. Sad really. I have not heard of a tanker aircraft coming in. Also, the runway, can it handle such a craft or will there be a fireball of all fireballs as it careens off the runway that could not handle this aircraft? I suspect the military will have to handle this in some fashion.

All quiet for me today. :salute:

[SteamWake]

Wow things are starting to get ugly their very fast.

Just today I heard news story of 'gangs' waging war in the streets with machetes over food.

I heard that the UN food bank on the island had been looted down to the last cracker.

It will be interesting to see how this all works out and hope for the best.

Oh and the airport being closed evidently the military is exempt to that. I'm suspecting they have fuel on hand somewhere.

[Happy Times]

This would be an opportunity to take out those gangs that terrorize the country, declare marshall law and shoot to kill. Would give the country a possibility to recover, otherwise it will decline even more to this apocalyptic anarchy.

[SteamWake]

This would be an opportunity to take out those gangs that terrorize the country, declare marshall law and shoot to kill. Would give the country a possibility to recover, otherwise it will decline even more to this apocalyptic anarchy.

Well that would be a good idea but theres a couple of problems.

Leadership..... there is none.

Infrastructure.... there is none.

The only thing that could be done would be to swoop in their with thousands of troops and arms and that would not send 'the right message'.

"Anarchy"

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N14205092.htm

[Happy Times]

Well that would be a good idea but theres a couple of problems.

Leadership..... there is none.

Infrastructure.... there is none.

The only thing that could be done would be to swoop in their with thousands of troops and arms and that would not send 'the right message'.

"Anarchy"

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N14205092.htm



Exactly the problems that make it the only viable strategy and i think it would send just the right message.

[AVGWarhawk]

Airport is now open. Marshall law as suggested above. :up: Sad we see another side of human nature in Haiti.

[SteamWake]

Airport is now open. Marshall law as suggested above. :up: Sad we see another side of human nature in Haiti.

That side of human nature has been firmly entrenched in Haiti for decades. Only now has the 'cover' been pulled off and it is on full display for all the world to see.

I really feel for the average Hatian and hold the thugocracy in the highest contempt.

But there is little I can personally do but to donate cash and pray.

[Snestorm]

USS Carl Vincens (en sp?) enrout with choppers, troops, and her giant desalinization plant, per TV2 Danmark.

[Torvald Von Mansee]

Vinson!! :D

[Oberon]

The Bataan and her Marine contingent are on the way as well. :salute:

[Snestorm]

More good, and bad, news on the shipping and logistics problems.

http://bluepulz.com/?Id=2462

One hell of a situation!

[Oberon]

More good, and bad, news on the shipping and logistics problems.

http://bluepulz.com/?Id=2462

One hell of a situation!

Yeah, you only need to look at AVGs colleagues pictures to see that it's going to be a major logistical headache to unload, but they'll do it alright, by hook or by crook. :yep:

[OneToughHerring]

Ok dumb question and probably already answered but how about air drops of aid? You know, those parachuute-thingie-boxes full of helpy goodness? Sorry, don't mean to make light of the situation. Oh yea and helicopters. Huge, big ones. For the transportation of the aid people, rescue personnel etc.

It seems like no aid has gotten to the majority of the casualties which to me seems like a pretty sorry effort from the helpers. The spreading of diseases and deaths due to lack of food and clean water are beginning to pile up and might become another huge problem any time soon.

[AVGWarhawk]

Air drop leads a mass of people killing for the goods.

[OneToughHerring]

Yea I suppose. But right now the help effort seems to have stalled, not because of you AVGWarhawk, you're doing a great job but it's not up to you. Reading some stuff and just thinking that the aid is getting there awfully slow. It's reminiscent of the Katrina-hurricane followup - debacle.

[August]

Yea I suppose. But right now the help effort seems to have stalled, not because of you AVGWarhawk, you're doing a great job but it's not up to you. Reading some stuff and just thinking that the aid is getting there awfully slow. It's reminiscent of the Katrina-hurricane followup - debacle.

That's because peoples expectations were set to unreasonable levels in the presses eagerness to blame Bush for the disaster. The bottom line is it is a hugely difficult and expensive job working on that scale regardless of which party is in the white house.

[Oberon]

It doesn't help that Haiti doesn't exactly have a world class transportation network even before the earthquake wrecked it. Getting goods to target is not easy, particularly when it has to be flown there or sailed there. The airport is quite small and there's not many of them and the ports have mostly fallen into the sea.
When the Vinson and Bataan get there, their helos will be able to help distribute equipment between points, but dropping aid at random will just result in increased looting and gang warfare which has already begun in many areas.
There's a lot of work to be done, but first the infrastructure has got to be repaired to the point of being able to be used to move things around.

A BBC Article basically highlighting what I've said...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8460787.stm

[Snestorm]

Even if they bring stuff in thru the port in The Dominican Republic, it's still got to be transported overland. It's not looking good with the roads decimated, and the bridges destroyed. Not to mention that EVERYTHING is going to need a military escort.

[AVGWarhawk]

Yea I suppose. But right now the help effort seems to have stalled, not because of you AVGWarhawk, you're doing a great job but it's not up to you. Reading some stuff and just thinking that the aid is getting there awfully slow. It's reminiscent of the Katrina-hurricane followup - debacle.


All I can say is red tap. I will leave it at that.

[AVGWarhawk]

That's because peoples expectations were set to unreasonable levels in the presses eagerness to blame Bush for the disaster. The bottom line is it is a hugely difficult and expensive job working on that scale regardless of which party is in the white house.

August is correct here. You see what we are up against. Runways without towers. No fuel for aircraft. Electricity out for a good long time. Water system in ruins and full of sewerage. Street system that sucked from the word go. The port is destroyed. It is an island to boot. Ok, just how fast do you want this done? Daunting task. These are the many problems emergency workers face. It is not as simple as flying in and dropping goods. People get crazy, shoot at the aircraft, shoot at fellow citizens and anything that moves. The logistics alone are mind boggling. As for Katrina, same deal. Water everywhere. Debrie in the way. Citizens going nuts. Lets face it...there was plenty of forewarning with Katrina. People stayed. Haiti...one dog ran out of a building right before quake. That was the forewarning. Not much time to prepare correct? Certainly not....this creates a huge death toll. Not pleasant. This ordeal is a bit different than Katrina and on more levels of government than Katrina. It will get done as quickly as possible. :up:

[longam]

Hopefully they rebuild with wood instead of the massive concrete buildings.

[AVGWarhawk]

Hopefully they rebuild with wood instead of the massive concrete buildings.


Need buildings engineered for quakes. CA has them, well, new construction anyway. Japan as well. It is not fool proof but it better than no engineering for quakes at all. :up:

[Happy Times]

August is correct here. You see what we are up against. Runways without towers. No fuel for aircraft. Electricity out for a good long time. Water system in ruins and full of sewerage. Street system that sucked from the word go. The port is destroyed. It is an island to boot. Ok, just how fast do you want this done? Daunting task. These are the many problems emergency workers face. It is not as simple as flying in and dropping goods. People get crazy, shoot at the aircraft, shoot at fellow citizens and anything that moves. The logistics alone are mind boggling. As for Katrina, same deal. Water everywhere. Debrie in the way. Citizens going nuts. Lets face it...there was plenty of forewarning with Katrina. People stayed. Haiti...one dog ran out of a building right before quake. That was the forewarning. Not much time to prepare correct? Certainly not....this creates a huge death toll. Not pleasant. This ordeal is a bit different than Katrina and on more levels of government than Katrina. It will get done as quickly as possible. :up:

If you promise to fix all of those im positive they would volunteer as a new state, wouldnt that be nice.

[MothBalls]

If you promise to fix all of those im positive they would volunteer as a new state, wouldn't that be nice.That would be just great. It would bring a whole new meaning to 'Welfare State'. Just think of all those people we could enslave via welfare, food stamps, social security, and who knows what new programs would be created for them.

It'll never happen, they don't have any oil.

[longam]

Need buildings engineered for quakes. CA has them, well, new construction anyway. Japan as well. It is not fool proof but it better than no engineering for quakes at all. :up:

I'm guessing that because of the location that concrete was the choice of building material, but it seems every house was built this way. They used re-bar here and there but of course not in every home. Even with these methods it still wont protect against a 7.5 quake.

I guess the Dominican Republic will finally get so air time even if they dont want it, maybe even some infiltration.

[Castout]

Poor people . . .

The quake hit them bad :shifty:
It could happen to any of us . . .without warning . . .

[SteamWake]

Hopefully they rebuild with wood instead of the massive concrete buildings.

Oh they used wood before, and cardboard, and plastic sheeting. That is one of the problems. There is no building code there besides who anticipates an earthquake of this size in the carribian?

On a side note I know a guy who shipped out on the USN Comfort this morning. It's nearly a five day trip in that boat but they are bringing world class medical care to the Haitians.

http://www.necn.com/Boston/Nation/2010/01/16/USNS-Comfort-prepares-for-trip/1263649561.html

This guy works for the military in an intellegence role thats about all I can say. If I hear some first hand accounts I will try to relay them.

[Oberon]

Good to hear that the Comfort has shipped out, that's one big step on the way. Thanks for keeping us updated SteamWake :salute:

[Tribesman]

There is no building code there besides who anticipates an earthquake of this size in the carribian?

I suppose the people who realise that earthquakes of that magnitude happen quite often on fault lines where they happen quite often:up:
Port au Prince has twice had quakes on a similar scale, the other half of Hispaniola also has the same fault problems
There have been bigger quakes affecting the country so it certainly isn't surprising(unless you don't anticipate the likely)
I suppose the real question overbuilding codes is..... how much better would Puerto Rico stand up to a similar quake(or an even bigger one as is predicted)?

[MothBalls]

Here's a clip from CNN about the port. The gentleman they are speaking with says the Island has about 7 days of supplies, after that, they'll starve.

It's more than fixing the two cranes, the docks and debris are just below the surface and no ships can enter the port. Looks like a bad situation. I sit here wishing I could do something, but in a way, I already have. I watch the news and see my tax dollar funded resources in action so I guess aside from the personal contribution I made, I did do something.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2010/01/15/candiotti.haiti.port.damage.cnn

[Biggles]

I just itch to help in any way. Walked around town today, minding my own business, but kept an eye open for any sort of donations from Red Cross or whatever. Didn't see anyone, bloody hell! This is just terrible, in any meaning of the word. I hate sitting here being utterly comfortable while these people starve and die. I feel I should be there and help, I really wish I could.

[Schroeder]

There are websides with information about relief organisations that are involved over there (at least here in Germany). You can get account data there and then do a normal bank transfer on their account if you wish to do something. I did (let's hope it won't just fall into the hands of some bureaucrats or thugs).

[Snestorm]

There are websides with information about relief organisations that are involved over there (at least here in Germany). You can get account data there and then do a normal bank transfer on their account if you wish to do something. I did (let's hope it won't just fall into the hands of some bureaucrats or thugs).

Unfortunately, this is often the case.

[MothBalls]

For those [like me] who won't give money to the Red Cross I ran across this: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Haitian-Earthquake-Relief/288681741232?ref=mf

Bunch of links on there for donations. I can't vouch for any of them, make your best decision.

If you just search the web, be careful with what you find. SANS put out an alert on one set of scammers, I'm sure there's more. http://isc.sans.org/diary.html?storyid=7987

[Biggles]

(let's hope it won't just fall into the hands of some bureaucrats or thugs).

Aye, this is what we can hope. I usually don't give money away for this very reason: Money has value for everyone, thus it may be "lost" on the way to the receiver. Instead I donate blood, which (hopefully) noone outside the hospitals have any interest in. But I can't give blood to Haitians...so money it is. Hell I gotta do something!

[OneToughHerring]

Aye, this is what we can hope. I usually don't give money away for this very reason: Money has value for everyone, thus it may be "lost" on the way to the receiver. Instead I donate blood, which (hopefully) noone outside the hospitals have any interest in. But I can't give blood to Haitians...so money it is. Hell I gotta do something!

Well if you go and donate blood to a Swedish aid organisation that's currently engaged in helping the Haitians then that will basically mean money to that organisation. So that's very close to actually helping the Haitians.

Not sure how the blood donation system works in Sweden.

[Biggles]

Not sure how the blood donation system works in Sweden.

Controlled by the state (that controls the hospitals etc. too). Don't think there are other (legal) organizations where you can go to donate blood, so unless the hospitals declare that they will send blood/money to Haiti, donating blood will not help them. But it will help the swedish hospitals, blood is always needed...

[OneToughHerring]

Controlled by the state (that controls the hospitals etc. too). Don't think there are other (legal) organizations where you can go to donate blood, so unless the hospitals declare that they will send blood/money to Haiti, donating blood will not help them. But it will help the swedish hospitals, blood is always needed...

I've donated blood a few times. It's a good way to help although the blood plasma that the organisation you donate to gets from the blood is a very expensive product so in fact you're giving them something of real value. Especially if you happen to have a rare blood type that's in demand.

Here they only give you juice and maybe sandwiches after you've donated but I know that in US they give money also.

On topic, US has been criticized by France for focusing on saving their own nationals from Haiti and ignoring the plight of the Haitians.

[Biggles]

Here they only give you juice and maybe sandwiches after you've donated but I know that in US they give money also.


Same here, no money, but sandwiches etc. You also get to pick a gift of liking, like a pair of socks etc.

Anyway, you saying they concentrate on american citizens? A shame if it's true, but not very surprising. The countrymen is always the priority for any country when these things happen. Sad, but true.

[Jimbuna]

Five days in and they are still finding people alive....but sadly, not much aid is getting through :hmmm:

[AVGWarhawk]

Five days in and they are still finding people alive....but sadly, not much aid is getting through :hmmm:

A majority is going barge. Not by choice. It is the only viable mod of transportation for the moment. The D-Day invasion took some time to get together. :03:

[Biggles]

Five days in and they are still finding people alive....but sadly, not much aid is getting through :hmmm:

Apparently, the record for staying alive under those circumstances are a week. Time is running out.:nope:

[Jimbuna]

A majority is going barge. Not by choice. It is the only viable mod of transportation for the moment. The D-Day invasion took some time to get together. :03:

Oh crikey! :o

We all know what happened to Mulberry Harbour :DL

[AVGWarhawk]

Oh crikey! :o

We all know what happened to Mulberry Harbour :DL


Yes sir. Here is the deal, this will be a long haul relief effort. The goods and supplies will have to keep flowing in for months to come...if not years. Most if not all relief effort take that long. Some areas in the US from past hurricanes still receive supplies. The mobile home cities are still functioning. It never ends.

[Castout]

Aye, this is what we can hope. I usually don't give money away for this very reason: Money has value for everyone, thus it may be "lost" on the way to the receiver. Instead I donate blood, which (hopefully) noone outside the hospitals have any interest in. But I can't give blood to Haitians...so money it is. Hell I gotta do something!

Good suggestion especially if the aid goes to a poor country which usually has a corrupt bureaucracy. I believe that happened to Aceh aid too....and the people who suffered the most must suffer again for their aid money such as those to be used to build their new home I guess must have been misused and cut leaving them with substandard homes which they refused to live in(as reported on tv). . .:dead:

[lorka42]

sent a fwe dollars their way with my facebook game, god knows if it will get there, but i feel better, egads, thats awful there, wasnt much there to begin with, but what little they had in the way of infrastructure, they needed.

[SteamWake]

Yes sir. Here is the deal, this will be a long haul relief effort. The goods and supplies will have to keep flowing in for months to come...if not years. Most if not all relief effort take that long. Some areas in the US from past hurricanes still receive supplies. The mobile home cities are still functioning. It never ends.

Yes while aid is desperatly needed unfortunatly it is not without serious consiquences... dependancy.

I guess its just human nature that once you are on the dole to stay on the dole. They tried to close one of the mobile home citys and all hell broke loose.

American and other coutries resources will be pouring into Haitai for years, even decades now.

[Skybird]

There is growing diplomatic turmoil over the way the American military handles the crisis and enforces priviliges at the cost of incoming help. France is reported to have intervened in "strong diplomatic protest" over the way the traffic ressources at the airport gets reserved for American aid flights and evacuation flights of people with american passports only. Many aid organisation complain that the runways get blocked for incoming foreign transports because evacuation flights with Americans are expected to take off from there at "some time in the future", and incoming Us military flights with aide are given priority over international aid flights. There is also massive criticism of the militarisation of the aid, the suboptimal directing of air traffic by the military, and fears of the US military using the opportunity to reserve the central part of the show for itself so to win ground in public perception and improve future strategic stand of american policies in Haiti - something the US has tried since long time, without much success.

the least thing I must say is that it is unacceptable to have intervals of 10 minutes and more between takeoffs and landings for the sake of some american planes coming in or taking off, and foreign aid flights even being turned away or told in advance not even to take off fore Haiti. The anger is especially great in France, and on radio some hours ago a german spokesman also expressed outrage about how the situation is handled at the airport by the Us military.

There are also many comments comparing it to the confused, headless and inefficient handling of things during Kathrina. Also on radio today there was an american spokesman of a non-governmental aid organsiation atacking the government for trying to keep foriengers and non-givernmental organisations out in order to establish a priviliged diplomatic position in Haiti from which the aid operation could be used for ongoing political operations in the future, conducted by the white house and the state departement.

I went only briefly over headlines in US papers and find it a bit strange that this international criticism does not get much coverage in US media. It appears as extremely biased to me. Even the Haitians themselves more and more complain aboiut the role of the Americans. I cannot help to get the impression that there are some things going somewhat wrong - and maybe intentionally so.

Hard to judge these things, things certainly are chaotic, and the truth probably lies somewehre between the outraged criticism directed at the US military, and the claims of the government that they have it all well under control. Also one has to note that even the criticism is not united in tone and argument, but is sounding different from many different sources. Possible that things are not as well as the US media paint them, and not as worse as spokesmen of organisation make them appear.

[Snestorm]

@Skybird

Quite frankly, I don't see any of these critsisms in the danish press.

As for France: Just a whiney, squeeky, LITTLE wheel. Nothing new.

[SteamWake]

Funny the Hatiains chanting in the streets "USA USA" might disagree with that article.

But hey France bashing the US... yes shocking.

[August]

But hey France bashing the US... yes shocking.

Almost as shocking as Skybird posting about it.

[Tribesman]

As for France: Just a whiney, squeeky, LITTLE wheel. Nothing new.
As for that, the big call is for field hospitals and urgently needed operating theatres for the medical staff already there. These vital emergency facilities supplies which are kept on stand by for events just like this were sent to the DR when the people running the airport refused to let the French planes land .
They will take another week to arrive if they have to truck them in from Santo Domingo.
Diversions like that are just plain stupidity.
The complaints about the handling of the airport are certainly coming thick and fast from all corners of the globe.....even from the US

[SteamWake]

As for that, the big call is for field hospitals and urgently needed operating theatres for the medical staff already there. These vital emergency facilities supplies which are kept on stand by for events just like this were sent to the DR when the people running the airport refused to let the French planes land .
They will take another week to arrive if they have to truck them in from Santo Domingo.
Diversions like that are just plain stupidity.
The complaints about the handling of the airport are certainly coming thick and fast from all corners of the globe.....even from the US

They were refusing all aircraft to land not just the french and with good reason. They were out of fuel. If an aircraft landed it would not be able to get out again. But Im sure somehow the US is to blame for that.

As to 'stratigic hospitals' one of the finest in the world is on its way as we speak. USN 'comfort' with a full compliment of staff and crew. :salute: But since she can only muster 12 or so knots it will be another day or two.

Theres also the 'security' issue...


Port-au-Prince, Haiti (CNN) -- Earthquake victims, writhing in pain and grasping at life, watched doctors and nurses walk away from a field hospital Friday night after a Belgian medical team evacuated the area, saying it was concerned about security.


http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/americas/01/16/haiti.abandoned.patients/index.html

Then theres the dammed if you do and dammed if you dont... But hey consider the source ;)


"I read that 3,000 soldiers are arriving, Marines armed as if they were going to war. There is not a shortage of guns there, my God. Doctors, medicine, fuel, field hospitals, that's what the United States should send," Chavez said on his weekly television show. "They are occupying Haiti undercover."


http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE60G2DW20100117?feedType=RSS&feedName=worldNews&rpc=22&sp=true

Good old Hugo... he may be insane but he's consistant.

[AVGWarhawk]

As to 'stratigic hospitals' one of the finest in the world is on its way as we speak. USN 'comfort' with a full compliment of staff and crew. :salute: But since she can only muster 12 or so knots it will be another day or two.



It takes the Comfort 5 days to prepare to get under way. They attempted to do it in 2 days. Not enough time. Basically last Thursday was the day she was really activated to load and go.

[Tribesman]

They were refusing all aircraft to land not just the french and with good reason.
No they were not, that was 3 days ago. They are allowing 4 flights an hour with 18 aircraft permitterd at any one time.

As to 'stratigic hospitals' one of the finest in the world is on its way as we speak. USN 'comfort' with a full compliment of staff and crew.
Really, post#7
But since she can only muster 12 or so knots it will be another day or two.
So thats no good to the medical staff from the Red Cross and MSF already there who are complaining that their vital equipment is being diverted away from them is it.

One of the first posts mentioned the need for speed in the response, you yourself wrote not to wait but go ahead and get the job done.
Now when agencies and governmentsd are complaining that the response is being slowed and the job is not getting done people say that its just bashing the US.:hmmm:

[SteamWake]

Well when they specifically call out the US as being at the root of the problems yes I would consider that bashing.

But yea I know your opinion so I'll just leave it at that.

This just hit the wire


30 Americans hurt in Haiti in 'mass casualty event': US officials30 Americans hurt in Haiti in 'mass casualty event': US officials


Guess they got hurt while impeading progress.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=TX-PAR-AHZ59&show_article=1

[AVGWarhawk]

There is growing diplomatic turmoil over the way the American military handles the crisis and enforces priviliges at the cost of incoming help. France is reported to have intervened in "strong diplomatic protest" over the way the traffic ressources at the airport gets reserved for American aid flights and evacuation flights of people with american passports only. Many aid organisation complain that the runways get blocked for incoming foreign transports because evacuation flights with Americans are expected to take off from there at "some time in the future", and incoming Us military flights with aide are given priority over international aid flights. There is also massive criticism of the militarisation of the aid, the suboptimal directing of air traffic by the military, and fears of the US military using the opportunity to reserve the central part of the show for itself so to win ground in public perception and improve future strategic stand of american policies in Haiti - something the US has tried since long time, without much success.

the least thing I must say is that it is unacceptable to have intervals of 10 minutes and more between takeoffs and landings for the sake of some american planes coming in or taking off, and foreign aid flights even being turned away or told in advance not even to take off fore Haiti. The anger is especially great in France, and on radio some hours ago a german spokesman also expressed outrage about how the situation is handled at the airport by the Us military.

There are also many comments comparing it to the confused, headless and inefficient handling of things during Kathrina. Also on radio today there was an american spokesman of a non-governmental aid organsiation atacking the government for trying to keep foriengers and non-givernmental organisations out in order to establish a priviliged diplomatic position in Haiti from which the aid operation could be used for ongoing political operations in the future, conducted by the white house and the state departement.

I went only briefly over headlines in US papers and find it a bit strange that this international criticism does not get much coverage in US media. It appears as extremely biased to me. Even the Haitians themselves more and more complain aboiut the role of the Americans. I cannot help to get the impression that there are some things going somewhat wrong - and maybe intentionally so.

Hard to judge these things, things certainly are chaotic, and the truth probably lies somewehre between the outraged criticism directed at the US military, and the claims of the government that they have it all well under control. Also one has to note that even the criticism is not united in tone and argument, but is sounding different from many different sources. Possible that things are not as well as the US media paint them, and not as worse as spokesmen of organisation make them appear.

Do not believe everything you read Skybird. In short, the media sucks for the most part and is very inconsistent in a lot they 'report' on. Christ, they had the USNS Comfort already steaming to Haiti on Wednesday....she was still in port located 10 minutes from my home. That was Thursday. The only outrage here is once again the world belittles US efforts to assist. How about using those efforts in the assistance? It is far easier to be critical than to actually do something.

[Snestorm]

I don't even see France in the donors' list, while USA is picking up 33% of the bill.

http://ocha.unog.ch/fts/reports/daily/ocha_R24_E15797___1001180205.pdf

What gives France a right to priority?

[Tribesman]

Well when they specifically call out the US as being at the root of the problems yes I would consider that bashing.

If someone is in charge then its them that takes the blame if it doesn't work right.
But be happy now as the US has handed over the allocation of landing slots to the UN so poeple can blame them now if they are turned away.

'mass casualty event'
Is that a bus crash?

[SteamWake]

Is that a bus crash?

Un known at this time. I'm assuming its a building collapse or some sort.

I'm not going to speculate.

[AVGWarhawk]

But be happy now as the US has handed over the allocation of landing slots to the UN so poeple can blame them now if they are turned away.



Welcome to the power struggle. Do you realize this effort for aid falls under the State Dept jurisdiction here in the US? You realize who runs the State Dept correct?

[Snestorm]

Welcome to the power struggle. Do you realize this effort for aid falls under the State Dept jurisdiction here in the US? You realize who runs the State Dept correct?

Secretary of State = Minister of Foreign Affairs = Hillary

Lille Bush and Bill are both out collecting donations (Together).

[SteamWake]

Oh crap now the UN 'takes over' now nothing will get done :oops:

[August]

Now I know why the Dems brought George Bush in. They need someone to blame!

[AVGWarhawk]

Secretary of State = Minister of Foreign Affairs = Hillary

Liile Bush and Bill are both out collecting donations (Together).

Bingo! What does Hillary know about logistics in aid to any region? Well, zero. Welcome to the power play. Should be under USAID direction with military as well. But hey, what do I know.

[SteamWake]

Another reason planes were turned away... No place to 'park' them

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/01/18/military-blames-crowded-parking-lot-diverted-planes-haiti-airport/

[Tribesman]

I don't even see France in the donors' list, while USA is picking up 33% of the bill.

How is that 33% of the bill, the bill as requested by the UN is $562million.
Meanwhile another bill as requested by the EU for Haiti is $604 million.

@Steamwake, it just seemed a strange choice of words when a minor accident in an event with possibly hundreds of thousands dead.

Welcome to the power struggle.
Yeah, nothing new there.

Do you realize this effort for aid falls under the State Dept jurisdiction here in the US?
You don't mean to tell me Haiti is foriegn do you?

You realize who runs the State Dept correct?
Oh god, its Billary isn't it.
Do you reckon that when she flies in for some publicity shots someone could lay on some real snipers to make up for what she missed out on in Tuzla?

[Oberon]

:hmmm: Would some of the planes inbound be able to land on a dirt runway? I'm just wondering if it would be feasible to clear up some temporary runways to increase the amount of aircraft that can land unload and take-off again. Of course, this wouldn't do much about the unloading space as it would be limited at a temporary airport but it might do a little something. The main downside and reason I don't think it has been implemented is both a lack of resources and the possibility of a landing plane losing something and screwing the airfield up and destroying whatever and whoever is inside it.
To be brutal though, even a little aid getting through is better than nothing, sure, there's going to be a lot of casualties (approx 200k last I heard) but unfortunately that is how it is, and the people on the ground are doing the best they can, and aid is getting in. With a smashed up infrastructure that was pretty rubbish even before the earthquake ruined it, it's going to be chaotic, add to that gang wars and other chaos and the effort is going to be impeded more, French complaints or no French complaints.
Let's just let the guys get on with doing the best they can do with what they have and if we can get more resources to them to help them, then that's great too, but fighting over how that's going to happen and trying to reorganise everything in the middle of the operation is just going to make things worse.
That's the trouble with the world today, people expect and demand everything right now, and since we lack Star Trek style transporters, they are often disappointed and eager to blame someone for what they perceive as a delay. :damn:

[Snestorm]

How is that 33% of the bill, the bill as requested by the UN is $562million.
Meanwhile another bill as requested by the EU for Haiti is $604 million.

Go back. Chech the link. And pay attention to detail.

You will find a list of nations, and how much they have ALREADY COMMITTED.
What the EU or FN/UN REQUESTS is immaterial.

[SteamWake]

:hmmm: Would some of the planes inbound be able to land on a dirt runway? I'm just wondering if it would be feasible to clear up some temporary runways to increase the amount of aircraft that can land unload and take-off again. Of course, this wouldn't do much about the unloading space as it would be limited at a temporary airport but it might do a little something. The main downside and reason I don't think it has been implemented is both a lack of resources and the possibility of a landing plane losing something and screwing the airfield up and destroying whatever and whoever is inside it.
To be brutal though, even a little aid getting through is better than nothing, sure, there's going to be a lot of casualties (approx 200k last I heard) but unfortunately that is how it is, and the people on the ground are doing the best they can, and aid is getting in. With a smashed up infrastructure that was pretty rubbish even before the earthquake ruined it, it's going to be chaotic, add to that gang wars and other chaos and the effort is going to be impeded more, French complaints or no French complaints.
Let's just let the guys get on with doing the best they can do with what they have and if we can get more resources to them to help them, then that's great too, but fighting over how that's going to happen and trying to reorganise everything in the middle of the operation is just going to make things worse.
That's the trouble with the world today, people expect and demand everything right now, and since we lack Star Trek style transporters, they are often disappointed and eager to blame someone for what they perceive as a delay. :damn:

If you read the whole article you will see they are doing more or less just that. Planes that can park on grass do so to make room for larger craft.

Military craft that can refuel airborne are asked to orbit while planes that cannot unload.

Sounds like an ATC nightmare...




Now in an example of you cant really trust any news comming out of there


Three Americans, not 30 as reported earlier by CNN, were injured outside the U.S.-controlled Port-au-Prince airport, the news channel said.


http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE60H3QA20100118

Right on CNN :shifty:

[Oberon]

Ah, my bad :damn:

Read before posting, read before posting, read before posting :damn:

Regarding the news report, that doesn't surprise me, most of the news coming out of there must be fragmented and putting 2 and 2 together often adds up to 30 in news agencies with fragmented news. Sky News and BBC News were like that on 7/7, at one point there was said to be about six explosions on the tube and three buses blown up but eventually it was corrected as more firm news came through.

[AVGWarhawk]

Quote:
Do you realize this effort for aid falls under the State Dept jurisdiction here in the US?
You don't mean to tell me Haiti is foriegn do you?


Quote:
You realize who runs the State Dept correct?
Oh god, its Billary isn't it.
Do you reckon that when she flies in for some publicity shots someone could lay on some real snipers to make up for what she missed out on in Tuzla?



Correct, this is Hillary's ballgame now. It was USAID and FEMA was under their direction. You will note Hillary was flying in with some supplies on her aircraft. Welcome to the PR tour.

[Tribesman]

Would some of the planes inbound be able to land on a dirt runway? I'm just wondering if it would be feasible to clear up some temporary runways to increase the amount of aircraft that can land unload and take-off again.
Its one of the proposals the UN assesors have done after inspecting the situation, a problem arises though due to the mountainous terrain so its not only making a strip with a rerasonable approach, its making access to it for distribution.
The main workable moves so far are to improve the road from Cap Hatian as its the nearest workable port, to build a road to the one usable pier at Port au Prince docks, and to impove the overland route from Santadomingo(though they have already worked on that road to bring it down to an 18 hour drive.)

[AVGWarhawk]

Its one of the proposals the UN assesors have done after inspecting the situation, a problem arises though due to the mountainous terrain so its not only making a strip with a rerasonable approach, its making access to it for distribution.
The main workable moves so far are to improve the road from Cap Hatian as its the nearest workable port, to build a road to the one usable pier at Port au Prince docks, and to impove the overland route from Santadomingo(though they have already worked on that road to bring it down to an 18 hour drive.)


If it ain't a DC3 or a puddle jumper, you will not land on the dirt runway. No commerical carrier will land on the dirt with one of their aircraft. Not to mention the length of these runways will not accomdate a larger commercial aircraft.

[Snestorm]

to impove the overland route from Santadomingo(though they have already worked on that road to bring it down to an 18 hour drive.)

This is positive news.

[Tribesman]

If it ain't a DC3 or a puddle jumper, you will not land on the dirt runway. No commerical carrier will land on the dirt with one of their aircraft. Not to mention the length of these runways will not accomdate a larger commercial aircraft.
They are not talking about large commercial aircraft or commercial carriers.
They are talking of the UNHAS doing short haul transfers itself from regional airports into a temporary strip(but not their Ilyushins)

[AVGWarhawk]

They are not talking about large commercial aircraft or commercial carriers.
They are talking of the UNHAS doing short haul transfers itself from regional airports into a temporary strip(but not their Ilyushins)


I think that additional small aircraft in the air would only exacerbate the problem in an area lacking in control tower support. Is it really worth the 18 hour trip when an aircraft can eventually arrive under the 18 hours for the road trip from a dirt field? Also, can we assure these trucks will go unmolested during this road trip?

[SteamWake]

Finally heard from my friend abord the Comfort.

They were indeed delayed on departure but are well underway now and were somewhere off the Florida Coast (best guess).

Right now there trying to figure out what to do with the wounded once they have been treated. They are investigating the remains of the American Consulate as a possible site.

The comfort does have some recovery suites but nothing on the scale of what they anticipate. So what to do with all that 'walking wounded' ?

They anticipate arrival on late tuesday or sometime wednesday. He doesent get full navigational updates so these are again best guesses.

[Buddahaid]

Correct, this is Hillary's ballgame now. It was USAID and FEMA was under their direction. You will note Hillary was flying in with some supplies on her aircraft. Welcome to the PR tour.

That would be the perception no matter who was in office. Just because she's not on your favorites list, or mine, is not relevant. Just saying.

[AVGWarhawk]

That would be the perception no matter who was in office. Just because she's not on your favorites list, or mine, is not relevant. Just saying.

Sir, I never said she was not on my favorites list. I was stating fact. What happened to Brown when Katrina hit? How much experience did he really have in logistics and running relief efforts? Why none and he was removed. Hillary has no business handling this. It is usually a logistical nightmare here on our own soil when it comes to disaster relief. Now throw in some many miles of water.

[AVGWarhawk]

Finally heard from my friend abord the Comfort.

They were indeed delayed on departure but are well underway now and were somewhere off the Florida Coast (best guess).

Right now there trying to figure out what to do with the wounded once they have been treated. They are investigating the remains of the American Consulate as a possible site.

The comfort does have some recovery suites but nothing on the scale of what they anticipate. So what to do with all that 'walking wounded' ?

They anticipate arrival on late tuesday or sometime wednesday. He doesent get full navigational updates so these are again best guesses.


Yes, delayed in port because 5 days is need to load the vessel. However, the news had the vessel enroute with water skiers in tow. :doh: I would say the very bad off will be in the vessel. Those that are not critical will be a triage on land. At any rate, the Comfort is an awesome vessel full of very dedicated people. :salute:

[Tribesman]

think that additional small aircraft in the air would only exacerbate the problem in an area lacking in control tower support. Is it really worth the 18 hour trip when an aircraft can eventually arrive under the 18 hours for the road trip from a dirt field?
You lost me there.
Is not the priority in increasing the functionality of the airport to restore tower control?
The airport itself has the problem of its size, increasing the apron and storage to increase its usefulness will as a matter of neccesity reduce its functionality while the work is being done. Even fully operational the current city airport simply could not handle the volume of supplies needed.
The landing strip proposal was only as an additional stop gap measure for increasing the flow.
Likewise the 18 hour trip is a stopgap measure to move supplies from the DR because they can't be got in directy to Haiti.
Though their best proposal so far for major movement is to build a road to the single usable pier in the city.

Also, can we assure these trucks will go unmolested during this road trip?
The current small scale looting will diminish as food and supplies become more available.

[SteamWake]

Yes, delayed in port because 5 days is need to load the vessel. However, the news had the vessel enroute with water skiers in tow. :doh: I would say the very bad off will be in the vessel. Those that are not critical will be a triage on land. At any rate, the Comfort is an awesome vessel full of very dedicated people. :salute:

Thats the thing though there is no place to put those tended to. Simple as that. At this point in time there is no place for them. Hopefully they will get this worked out soon.

Triage is prior to treatment and thats another issue. Obviously not everyone can be treated abord the ship, how do you sort out whom gets treated and whom gets turned away without ... well... getting the french upset. ;)

[Tribesman]

Go back. Chech the link. And pay attention to detail.

Detail?
So Sweden tops the donations chart followed by Luxemburg then Denmark......bloody hell Guyana makes next place pushing Norway down into fifth.
Detail:har:

[Buddahaid]

Sir, I never said she was not on my favorites list. I was stating fact. What happened to Brown when Katrina hit? How much experience did he really have in logistics and running relief efforts? Why none and he was removed. Hillary has no business handling this. It is usually a logistical nightmare here on our own soil when it comes to disaster relief. Now throw in some many miles of water.
Ah, my misreading. Still, one would hope sense would prevail over the photo op. She's not stupid and can certainly see how much mishandling this will damage her, as well as the converse.

No need to call me sir. :shucks:

[Biggles]

Sweden has given about 50 million swedish kronor atm, almost all from private donors, quite good, since unlike the Tsunami of 2004, almost none swedes are known to be harmed over there. Keep it up!:salute: And keep it up, all the other people around the world, who helps in any way they can! God bless!

[Oberon]

If it ain't a DC3 or a puddle jumper, you will not land on the dirt runway. No commerical carrier will land on the dirt with one of their aircraft. Not to mention the length of these runways will not accomdate a larger commercial aircraft.

Wouldn't a Herky bird be able to do it? Or do they not have the range? :hmmm:

[Snestorm]

Wouldn't a Herky bird be able to do it? Or do they not have the range? :hmmm:

Is the Herky bird the big one, that can pick up sea containers right from a ships deck?

[Oberon]

Is the Herky bird the big one, that can pick up sea containers right from a ships deck?

I meant the C-130 Hercules. :salute:

[Biggles]

Bring in the DC-3. It'll handle anything. Maybe not the biggest cargo hold in the airfleet but sure as hell beats nothing.

[Snestorm]

I meant the C-130 Hercules. :salute:

Oh! My knowledge on aircraft is about zero.

I was thinking about the giant helicopters that can be used to offload containerships, but have no idé what they are called.

[SteamWake]

Skycrane ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-64_Skycrane

Though there a lot of varients. :rock:

One catch would be you have to get that honkin thing on the island to begin with. That in itself is no small matter. :D

Oh and the DC3's while one of my all time favorite aircraft its cargo capacity is woefully inadaguitte by todays standards.


On a curious side note from personal experience... a large proportion of stolen heavy equipment from the Miami area went straight to Haiti in cargo containers in the 80's. The introduction of the lojack helped stemed the tide a bit.

Also i remember seeing container ships bound for Haiti stacked with bicycles 20' high. Assuredly each and every last one of them were stolen at some point.

[August]

Skycrane ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-64_Skycrane

Though there a lot of varients. :rock:

One catch would be you have to get that honkin thing on the island to begin with. That in itself is no small matter. :D

Another problem would be that you'd need a sea surface as smooth as glass in order to pull off the hook up.

[SteamWake]

Another problem would be that you'd need a sea surface as smooth as glass in order to pull off the hook up.

I assume they would berth the ship first.

[August]

I assume they would berth the ship first.

If there's a berth they can probably unload the containers in the normal way.

Part of what I was thinking about in my task force thread was the capability to unload containers and such without the need of a functioning port.

[Platapus]

I am surprised that the American media has not mentioned the agreement we just made with Cuba.

Cuba and the United States have had an agreement in place for limited access through their airspace for isolated emergency operations.

Due to recent negotiations, for the first time, we have an agreement for sustained access to Cuban airspace for aid operations in Haiti.

This is a very good thing and could open the door for other similar negotiations between Cuba and the United States. :salute:

[CaptainHaplo]

That would be a good thing on many fronts Platypus...

As for airdrops - the 130 is a good bird but the 141 is more capable.

[SteamWake]

I am surprised that the American media has not mentioned the agreement we just made with Cuba.

Cuba and the United States have had an agreement in place for limited access through their airspace for isolated emergency operations.

Due to recent negotiations, for the first time, we have an agreement for sustained access to Cuban airspace for aid operations in Haiti.

This is a very good thing and could open the door for other similar negotiations between Cuba and the United States. :salute:

or a token gesture by a crumbling regime ;)

[Platapus]

or a token gesture by a crumbling regime ;)

I believe nine other US Presidents all thought the same thing: Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton. And almost Bush Jr. :O:

[SteamWake]

I believe nine other US Presidents all thought the same thing: Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton. And almost Bush Jr. :O:

Yea but Fidel is dead and there is a puppet regime with little to no leverage in place now.

But this is a horrible digression from the topic at hand and I apologize.

[Buddahaid]

Just read the death estimate is 200,000! Holy sh... that's hard to fathom.

[AVGWarhawk]

I am surprised that the American media has not mentioned the agreement we just made with Cuba.

Cuba and the United States have had an agreement in place for limited access through their airspace for isolated emergency operations.

Due to recent negotiations, for the first time, we have an agreement for sustained access to Cuban airspace for aid operations in Haiti.

This is a very good thing and could open the door for other similar negotiations between Cuba and the United States. :salute:

That was on the news last Friday I believe. :up:

[Oberon]

That would be a good thing on many fronts Platypus...

As for airdrops - the 130 is a good bird but the 141 is more capable.

I meant more for landing on dirt based runways rather than airdrops. :hmmm:

[SteamWake]

I meant more for landing on dirt based runways rather than airdrops. :hmmm:

You know come to think of it the CB's were able to construct runways big enough for B25's in a week and that was in the 1940's. :yep:

[Snestorm]

Mearsk Lines has donated the use of their container ships.

All aid going to Haiti sails for free (Gratis!)
Go Danmark!

http://nyhederne.tv2.dk/article/27912840/

[Tribesman]

You know come to think of it the CB's were able to construct runways big enough for B25's in a week and that was in the 1940's.
Did they build them in a week in mountains or on the flat bits of pacific islands?
Did they set off days or weeks in advance with a full plan for each location and all assets already assembled?

[OneToughHerring]

I guess hope is dwindling in finding anyone alive anymore. I hope they stay and dig out all the bodies, might be good practice for the future.

Hope the diseases don't set in now, last thing needed would be a deadly epidemic. Even without an epidemic the death toll is rising due to lack of help in many areas.

[AVGWarhawk]

Did they build them in a week in mountains or on the flat bits of pacific islands?
Did they set off days or weeks in advance with a full plan for each location and all assets already assembled?


Well, I believe the Japanese cleared most of the fields if I remeber correctly. We took the island and completed the runway with material that could handle B17 and larger.

[OneToughHerring]

And about the media covering this, I wonder if they'd be showing the bloody bodies and all that if it was a white nation, let alone the US? But because it's 'some black country' it's ok to show the full extent of the suffering.

In my country there was a big ferry accident, a ship called Estonia sank. There was footage of the bodies but it was kept from all of the media. The most that was shown were coffins.

[SteamWake]

Did they build them in a week in mountains or on the flat bits of pacific islands?
Did they set off days or weeks in advance with a full plan for each location and all assets already assembled?

Probably true but they also had the pesky problem of people lobbing munitions their way.

Still I wouldd be willing to guess though that at some point they were called in at the last minute with little prior notice.

[SteamWake]

Then theres the dammed if you do and dammed if you dont... But hey consider the source ;)

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE60G2DW20100117?feedType=RSS&feedName=worldNews&rpc=22&sp=true

Good old Hugo... he may be insane but he's consistant.

LOL looks like the French agree


France accused the US of "occupying" Haiti on Monday as thousands of American troops flooded into the country to take charge of aid efforts and security.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/centralamericaandthecaribbean/haiti/7020908/US-accused-of-occupying-Haiti-as-troops-flood-in.html

If it wasent so dire I would say.. hell lets pull our troops out and let france deal with the consiquences :rock:

[AVGWarhawk]

And about the media covering this, I wonder if they'd be showing the bloody bodies and all that if it was a white nation, let alone the US? But because it's 'some black country' it's ok to show the full extent of the suffering.

In my country there was a big ferry accident, a ship called Estonia sank. There was footage of the bodies but it was kept from all of the media. The most that was shown were coffins.


You're not serious are you?

[SteamWake]

disaster porn

Noun.

When the media puts horrific or tragic images on a 24 hour loop, constantly driving them into your head, and then refers to the events portrayed as an "unspeakable tragedy" . .. .despite the fact that they have four different talking heads analyzing it 24 hours a day. Often times disaster porn is used to generate financial support. Most commonly associated with 9/11, where every mention of the "terrorist outrage" was followed by an infomercial for NYPD t-shirts and American flag bumper stickers.

"This is just horrible. I can't even bear to look." Said Geraldo Rivera as he rewound the disaster porn tape of the World Trade Center collapsing for the 10,000th time that day. "Buy 'I LOVE AMERICA' bumper stickers and NYPD hats now!"

[Dowly]

In my country there was a big ferry accident, a ship called Estonia sank. There was footage of the bodies but it was kept from all of the media. The most that was shown were coffins.

And what country would that be? Cant be Finland because they sure as hell showed bodies in the news when it happened.

[AVGWarhawk]

And what country would that be? Cant be Finland because they sure as hell showed bodies in the news when it happened.


I was a ridiculas comment from OTH...9/11 we saw all the news had to offer on blood shed and suffering. Hell, they showed the people jumping out of the twin towers and at least 50 floors up. The media was not shy about that.

Katrina...we got the full effect there as well.


Looks like a bait post to me :hmmm:

[OneToughHerring]

And what country would that be? Cant be Finland because they sure as hell showed bodies in the news when it happened.

I don't remember any bodies from Estonia. There were plenty of pictures taken but very few if any shown in the media, tv or newspapers.

Oh yea, Katrina. The dead bodies you saw were those of black people.

As far as 9/11, there were images of people falling but not the actual corpses or dying people. Even in the documentaries the dead bodies are edited out. Not so with this earthquake.

[Dowly]

I don't remember any bodies from Estonia. There were plenty of pictures taken but very few if any shown in the media, tv or newspapers.

There was pictures and videos shown on news and on newspapers.

Remember? :-?
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/9Kx3pIYK9tA/0.jpg

[OneToughHerring]

There was pictures and videos shown on news and on newspapers.

Remember?
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/9Kx3pIYK9tA/0.jpg

It's difficult to tell if the people on those rafts were alive or dead, taken from such as distance. Quite a few actually survived on those rafts.

Bodies did eventually wash ashore and pictures were taken of them but those pictures weren't published.

[Dowly]

It's difficult to tell if the people on those rafts were alive or dead, taken from such as distance. Quite a few actually survived on those rafts.

Bodies did eventually wash ashore and pictures were taken of them but those pictures weren't published.

The video from the rescue chopper showed that particular raft longer as it was hovering above it. Not hard to tell at all. Also, there were shots on the same video of bodies being lifted from the sea.

Anywho, that's all from me.

[SteamWake]

For cryin out loud. Back on topic please.

[AVGWarhawk]

I don't remember any bodies from Estonia. There were plenty of pictures taken but very few if any shown in the media, tv or newspapers.

Oh yea, Katrina. The dead bodies you saw were those of black people.

As far as 9/11, there were images of people falling but not the actual corpses or dying people. Even in the documentaries the dead bodies are edited out. Not so with this earthquake.

Search the net, you will find just as many whites as blacks. I just did and also discovered the media was asked to block all of those pictures...no matter white or black. I guess you are correct that happenings in other countries are open to any pictures presented in other countries. Tell me, why do you think that is?

[Onkel Neal]

I was a ridiculas comment from OTH...9/11 we saw all the news had to offer on blood shed and suffering. Hell, they showed the people jumping out of the twin towers and at least 50 floors up. The media was not shy about that.

Katrina...we got the full effect there as well.


Looks like a bait post to me :hmmm:

Don't take the bait :03:

[Jimbuna]

Don't take the bait :03:

Precisely.

Hope is fast dwindling now with regards to finding many more survivors :nope:

[AVGWarhawk]

Don't take the bait :03:

I like bait, e'specially if it is live! :D

[bookworm_020]

Here's a different take on what's happening.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/passengers-in-the-lap-of-luxury-at-the-gateway-to-hell-20100119-mixt.html?autostart=1

Is it right? Is it wrong?:hmmm:

[Torplexed]

Here's a different take on what's happening.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/passengers-in-the-lap-of-luxury-at-the-gateway-to-hell-20100119-mixt.html?autostart=1

Is it right? Is it wrong?:hmmm:

It's a little of both.

The cruise industry says all ships visiting Haiti are dropping off relief supplies, and donating some of their profits, but some passengers stayed aboard, saying they'd feel guilty romping in the surf so close to where people were dying. They thought the ships should've skipped Haiti, so they could have vacationed at a respectable distance. But does that make sense? You have to ask yourself will guilt ultimately rescue Haiti?

Haiti's problem is poverty. That's why they don't live in sturdy homes; that's why they have no emergency services. And yes, we're all giving money NOW. But how long before we get burnt out on those fund-raising calls and start screening them out? How long before we're no longer shocked by the pictures? And when that starts happening, how will Haiti make money? Its most lucrative assets at this point are the very things that attract the cruise ships. Warm weather, blue water, and quiet beaches. If the cruise ships skip Labadee, the employees of the resort who may be their extended family's only source of income after this disaster are possibly unemployed as well.

Yes, it makes you cringe to see overfed cruise passengers scooting around on jet skis while people are dying a few miles away. But as bad as it looks -- what's going to help keep Haiti going after we've all moved on to the next disaster?

[Snestorm]

Here's a different take on what's happening.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/passengers-in-the-lap-of-luxury-at-the-gateway-to-hell-20100119-mixt.html?autostart=1

Is it right? Is it wrong?:hmmm:

It sure would seem that, that dock is a valuable asset, which could be put to better use.

But, then again, I don't have all the facts neccesary to make a judgement.

[OneToughHerring]

Dowly,

So maybe two or three bodies positively from a fairly long distance? I'm just saying, and it's not just this Haiti-thing, it's been going on since day one. Just remember those famine images from Africa etc. I'm not even trolling here, I think the biggest media houses are kind of 'trolling' by flooding the media with "disaster porn" as SteamWake correctly said and showing very little if any restraint in this case.

But enough of this OT. 72 000 bodies counted so far. Looks like this really will be one of the biggest earthquakes in recent times.

[nikimcbee]

I like bait, e'specially if it is live! :D

Can I use it for crabbing? Will those #$%@#%$, @!#$%@#%ing seal bother it? Will it work better than rotten chichen?

[SteamWake]

USN Comfort arriving in Haitai as we speak.

They had to slow a bit after throtteling the hell out of the engines and starting a small fire and some other break downs.

I was told that they felt the aftershock on board. :o

[SteamWake]

It sure would seem that, that dock is a valuable asset, which could be put to better use.

But, then again, I don't have all the facts neccesary to make a judgement.

There small docks. The 'liners' anchor off shore and ferry the pax in. Not much commercial value.

Dont overlook the part where the liners are carrying relief supplys as well.

[Snestorm]

There small docks. The 'liners' anchor off shore and ferry the pax in. Not much commercial value.

Dont overlook the part where the liners are carrying relief supplys as well.

Thanks for the update.
Glad I chose not to rush to judgement.

[Jimbuna]

In this evenings UK news they highlighted the fact that over 2,000 people in a makeshift camp located less than 200 metres from the entrance to the airport have received absolutely no aid and are slowly starving to death.

There was a live interview with the US General Commanding Officer and in it he stated "I was unaware of this data".

It would appear lines of communication and information are pretty weak in places....it makes little sense in seeing news clips of a few lucky souls being found alive after eight days, yet thousands nearby are suffering.

[SteamWake]

Sorry I have to call BS on that news report.

Yes lets focus on the negative shall we :nope:

[Jimbuna]

The majority of the report actually highlighted the positives and focussed the majority of the airtime on a joint Turkish/US (a team each from Virginia and New York City)/Haitian effort culminating in a succesful rescue of a young boy and his sister.

Did any Brits see the North East News programme at 18:00 this evening?

[OneToughHerring]

A pier is open and aid is pooring in according to CNN. The pier is in bad shape though.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/americas/01/21/haiti.earthquake/index.html?eref=googletoolbar

jimbuna,

There's probably all sorts of mismanagement going on there right now, hopefully, at least, the worst is over.

[AVGWarhawk]

A pier is open and aid is pooring in according to CNN. The pier is in bad shape though.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/americas/01/21/haiti.earthquake/index.html?eref=googletoolbar

jimbuna,

There's probably all sorts of mismanagement going on there right now, hopefully, at least, the worst is over.


There is always mismanagement on some level at the start. Eventually the supply chain is established and things work out. It is hard to get cooperation amongst the mass confusion from the start. Calm is restored. A month from now you will hear nothing about Haiti but relief efforts will continue. Just the nature of the beast.

[Jimbuna]

A pier is open and aid is pooring in according to CNN. The pier is in bad shape though.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/americas/01/21/haiti.earthquake/index.html?eref=googletoolbar

jimbuna,

There's probably all sorts of mismanagement going on there right now, hopefully, at least, the worst is over.

Let us hope each ensueing day is better than the one before.

Personally I think that will be the case.

[OneToughHerring]

http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/01/26/haiti.doctors.lessons/index.html

Good thing those Haitians can't file malpractice suits, eh?

[OneToughHerring]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8484317.stm

After the search for survivors was already over, a girl was found alive after 15 days. Makes you think if it's smart to quit the search so quick.