Subsimmers advice needed

[Freiwillige]

It is not often I ask nor need advice. I seem to have my life steered in the right direction but after tonight I am a bit perplexed. My good friend Dan I have known and hung out with for the past 8 months is a good guy. His wife left him for a co-worker 1 year ago and he has had a hard time letting go. He drinks more than he should but he has a beautiful 9 year old daughter that he worships the ground she walks on and over all he is a great guy.

Well at least that was my opinion of him before tonight's events. You see Dan is a recovering cocaine addict and has slipped up once in our friendship. I mean he has a stable job and loves his child and does well otherwise although I think he drinks a bit much on the nights he doesn't have his daughter and I know from conversation he is a bit lonely after 15 years of marriage. Tonight after drinking a bit with him at his house during the Cardinal\Green bay game he decided that he wanted to go to the bar. After the few minutes at the bar He decided he wanted to have a party.

At the party some guy showed up claiming he was on coke and exstacy and invited my friend to his house to do more. At that point I rudely intervened and set his priority's straight! Or so I thought.

A half an hour later he was gone to do what he shouldn't be doing. Later he show's back up and asks if I am cool with this guy coming over. I knew the guy was a coke dealer and laughed and said its your life. I left as soon as the loser showed up.

The moral of this story is Dan seems to be a great guy and is always trying to get me the (Atheist) to go to church with him ETC.

Im stumped as he has become one of my best friends but at the same time I wonder if it isn't time to write him off.

He knows loud and clear my feelings on his doings.

Should I just let go and move on?

Opinions good and bad appreciated.

Cowboy Gerry:arrgh!:

[Snestorm]

My perspective:

It's time to say goodbye to Dan.
His problem can hurt you legaly, financialy, and socialy.

Keep your nose clean, and protect yourself first.

[Skybird]

Avoid him.

[Dowly]

It's hard to say what you should do without knowing the other guy. Do you think you could talk to him and to get him think about what will follow if he slips again?

My cousin is pretty much in the same state, but with alcohol. He has a 10yo son who means everything to him, yet he cant stay off the booze. He spent his new year's eve and christmas in rehab for the umptheenth time, he has his good times, usually during the summer when he can be on our cottage away from booze, but come winter and it's rehab time again. :down: Needless to say we are all extremely worried about him, hell his the best guy I know, always there for me and my brother if we need someone to talk to or just have hard time otherwise.

[Skybird]

That is family relations, Dowly. Agreed, then you are closer.

Freiwilliger is not close family to that guy, and he is in no position to battle somebody else's alcohol and drug problems. It is a battle that only few junkeys get under control. Assisting in that attempt, as an outsider, has two preconditions - you need to be extremely close to the person in question, and the addicted person needs to be strong in will. That guy Freiwilliger described, does not seem to be that. Loving his kid is not enough. alcoholics can ruin their own families and still say they love them. In fact they want their pardon only - and do not want to change themselves at all.

Most alcoholics getting away from the bottle, do not stay away from the battle. The prognosis is even worse if they also take drugs.

Protect yourself against getting pulled down along with them.

[August]

My perspective:

It's time to say goodbye to Dan.
His problem can hurt you legaly, financialy, and socialy.

Keep your nose clean, and protect yourself first.


This ^

[SteamWake]

al anon :yep:

[AVGWarhawk]

You can only make suggestions and recommendations. Drugs are a hard driver. He will blow you off as well as his kid to do the drugs. Again, you can not tell him what to do however, you can always walk away for good. I recommend you do.

[Onkel Neal]

Sounds like the booze binges and coke flirtation is a cry for help. "Look at me, my loneliness is forcing me to do bad things and self-destruct. Someone who cares about me, please stop me."

Problem is, what can you do? He's not likely to listen to you, is he? If he is a Christian, he needs to get more involved with his church ASAP. He needs the support system they can give him, and he needs to get ahold of himself. Especially if he has a kid, what kind of example is that setting?

The unfortunate reality is some people are not strong enough or mature enough to endure hardships without falling apart like this. If he was my friend, I would lay it out for him and support him: Look buddy, this has to stop right now, I will help you only if you cut that crap out.

Also, if you have only known him 8 months, he's not a lifelong friend, and from what you say, he has "slipped up" once in the last year. Not good. I would be wary of getting dragged into a serious situation I have no control over.

[antikristuseke]

if he is your friend, then try to get him to clean up, dont abandon him. If you have tried everything youcan think of, then and only then give up. Any sooner than that and you really shouldnt call him a friend. Drugs are hard to kick, but simply to walk away from a friend in need of help is not something Icould do, and I have been in this situation, it did not go well.

[GoldenRivet]

My perspective:

It's time to say goodbye to Dan.
His problem can hurt you legaly, financialy, and socialy.

Keep your nose clean, and protect yourself first.

a friend for the past 8 months is one thing.

if he was a friend for the past 18 years that would be another.

I agree with Snestorm entirely, just say goodbye to this individual.

you simply cannot save some people, and sometimes even if you manage to save them, the loss to yourself can be so substantial that the entire process was worth very little.

[Sailor Steve]

That's a hard one. Everybody's advice, to go or to stay, has good points. My inclination would be to let him know that I really am a friend, and I want to help, but I can't let his problems ruin my life. I'd tell him I'm there for whatever he needs, but I won't let him take me down with him. After that, see how much he really wants to get straigh, and take it from there.

[kgsuarez]

You can't help him. Trust me. I have personal experience in these matters.

The only person who could help him is another alcoholic and/or addict. You've only known this man for 8 months. Get out while you can, as his behavior will only grow worse.

You may not completely realize it right now, but you are dealing with a seriously ill man. If you continue to associate yourself with this man he is most likely going to start asking you for money and other kinds of bad help.

Don't be gullible. This man has befriended you for all the wrong reasons. It is only a matter of time before he begins to manipulate you.

Take it from someone who knows alcoholics and addicts very well. This man is trouble. Keep away. The truth may hurt, but you must know it before you can be free.

Also, some food for thought... There's a saying that goes "Water seeks its own level." Don't let that statement hurt or offend you. I only want to help. You may not be the type to indulge in the atrocities that this man does, but hang around him long enough and his awful habits will begin to look commonplace. Who you associate yourself with says a lot about you as a person.

I hope that you can balance your heart and mind and make the right choice.

Good luck.

[NeonSamurai]

I am inclined to agree that there isn't a whole lot you can do. An intervention might work (or might backfire), but you need the people he is closest to and cares most about involved in it. If you do it solo it will almost certainly blow up in your face (the person will probably go defensive, particularly if you approach it wrong).

But it doesn't hurt to try imho. I would try taking him aside when he is sober, etc and gently talk to him about it. Don't tell him what to do, or how to run his life. Show mainly that you are concerned, not angry or judging him. The important thing is to not put him on the defensive, but get him to open up and talk about it.

[Blacklight]

I would advise cutting ties with him. From personal experience, I can say that friends who are drug addicts are ALWAYS addicts. They WILL drag you into their problems and their world. They WILL steal from you to support their habbit. They WILL let you down at every opportunity. When the drugs are in the driver's seat, they're not going to care about you or your life anywhere NEAR as much as they care about getting high. The next thing you'll know is that things will be missing from your house. They'll bum money off you to buy drugs or downright steal it when you aren't looking. They'll completely skewer your trust.
Do NOT trust anyone who does drugs. Don't give them an INCH !!! Never turn your back on them or you'll get screwed somehow.

[Onkel Neal]

And don't let him know where you keep your guns :03:

[Jimbuna]

That's a hard one. Everybody's advice, to go or to stay, has good points. My inclination would be to let him know that I really am a friend, and I want to help, but I can't let his problems ruin my life. I'd tell him I'm there for whatever he needs, but I won't let him take me down with him. After that, see how much he really wants to get straigh, and take it from there.

Full agreement....give him that one last chance.

[Happy Times]

You have to make it clear that you dont want anything to do with his lifestyle.
You might keep checking after his child tough, if you feel obligated.
You can promise to give support if decides to make a real effort to get his lfe straight.

I have a similar friend to whos son im a godfather to.
He is involved with a biker gang and was just arrested for a month when he was stopped by the police.
He was driving with a car full of weapons, cocaine, meth and electronics..:doh:

Luckily he is not the type that involves his friends to this kind of activities.
He knows i dont want to know and is a really good hearted guy in nature.
Its just that this kind of lifestyle sucks you in for good usually.

My only contact to him is mostly because of my interest to the well being of the child.
I have friends in the police also, interesting to see the both sides of the law sometimes.:hmmm:

[VonHesse]

Since it hasn't been mentioned, all I can stress is that you need to figure out what's right for you. From personal experience, you can't change him. You can help and support him, but he'll only change if he chooses to.

I'd treat this like any other relationship. Add up the pros and cons. Decide how much you really care and how far you are willing to go to maintain it. What are you gonna do when he keeps using? How involved are you willing to get in his personal affairs? Do you even want to be involved? Is there hope?

These are questions that only you can answer, and my point to you is: figure out where YOU stand before you tackle the challenge of helping him. Maybe you can help him - maybe he's a lost cause. Figure out your own boundaries, emotonally and physically, before you get involved.

I know that's not very helpful, but it's the best I can come up with. Don't put yourself in a position to get hurt unless you're willing to get hurt.

Good luck.

[Platapus]

"Associate yourself with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation, for 'tis better to be alone than in bad company." - George Washington

[UnderseaLcpl]

It's been said, but I'll say it again; this is a tough problem. There's a lot of good advice both ways here, but only you really know Dan so only you can determine which solution, if any, is most practicable.

It sounds like he needs professional help, but if you are unable or unwilling to compel him to seek it then here is my advice. You have probably tried some of this stuff already but since I don't know exactly what you have done or know thus far I will just outline everything.

Fisrtly, remember that addicts are people, too. This person is your friend. He most likely thinks of himself as your friend, which is why he sees you as an acceptable source to finance or encourage something equally important to him: his habits. People under the effects of addiction will go to great lengths to rationalize their actions. He probably thinks that you will understand, but he hasn't really taken the time to consider what it is that he is doing to you, not to mention everyone else. Nonetheless, no matter how self-deluded he is, he is still a person. He still thinks and acts like a person, but in a different reality.

Remember that chemical addiction alters the body's natural homeostasis. It redefines the threshold at which the body feels "good". Keep in mind what your friend will have to go through to re-obtain a natural state of homeostasis. It will not be pleasant for him, and he probably knows that from experience. Anyone whose habits involve stealing or otherwise acting unacceptably has doubtless been in a situation where they have not had their poison of choice.

Knowing this, we must then consider what effects withdrawal might have on the person in question. I don't know the effects of cocaine withdrawal, but I know that people can die from alcohol withdrawal. Their nervous system and cardiovascular system can malfunction from the sudden absence of a chemical (ethanol and methanol) it has grown accustomed to and lead to shock, arythmea, and permanent nervous damage or death. Keep this in mind as you decide which course of action to pursue. Professional help is the best option, but again, if that option is unavailable, you may want to wean him off of his addictions rather than force him to quit entirely.

The silver lining (and also the cause) of this cloud is the extreme chemical adaptability of the human body. Drugs and alcohol are dangerous enough by themselves, but they are doubly so when the body is subjected to a chemical imbalance as the result of depression and related emotional problems. In such cases they not only counterbalance the excess production of "depressive" neurotransmitters like serotonin, but they also encourage the activity through manipulation of the noradrenaline system. In short, the body learns to reward itself for introducing a chemical that makes the bad feeling go away. But this works both ways. If the dependency itself can be associated with displeasure or replaced with a more sustainable natural "high" that requires less "displeasurable" circumstance then the addiction can be overcome.

As a word of warning, note that I said "overcome", not "eliminated". Bodily chemistry functions a lot like the immune system. Well, actually the functions are very different but the results are analagous. When you get a vaccination or fight off a disease your body develops an immunity against it. Antibodies and T-cells are ever on standby to defend against any pathogen or virus once you have survived it. Chemical dependency is similar. Your body (or moreso, your brain and nervous system) retain the programmed behaviour one teaches them when subjected to chemical imbalance. If the conditions are experienced again, the body will naturally revert to the state most adapted to that condition. This is kind of why people who learn things when they are drunk, or fatigued, or otherwise chemically impaired can only remember them when they are in the same state. It is also what makes relapse such a problem. So, keep that in mind.

Now, the problems with substituting something for chemical dependency are multitudinous. For one thing, there are very few things that create a neurobiological reaction as strong or stronger than the introduction of a controlled substance. Fortunately, Dan already seems to have access to one of the few things that can overcome an artificial chemical dependency; his daughter. If he adores her as much as you say then his body's biological priorities are already in order, so there is hope.
In most cases there is nothing so powerful as the urge to reproduce and care for offspring. This is physiologically less true in males than in females, but it is still very important. The other important part is cognizance. Dan has apparently convinced himself that what he is doing will not hurt his daughter. If he can be made to realize that this is not true he will likely change his behaviour.

Another possibility is the introduction of another viable partner. If he is feeling lonely after being married for 15 years then his relationship is not a sustainable arrangement. His body is not going to reward him for keeping a mate that he ses as being insufficient in some capacity. He either needs to change tack and find someone else or re-examine his relationship and find new life in it. This is something that only he can do. It cannot be forced upon him, nor should it be, but the suggestion can be helpful if made in a tactful manner.

Have a care, though, when pursuing either of these courses of action. To an addict, an outside attempt to help can seem like a threat.

Consider what you would do if you were trying to help a friend go on a diet. In that case, the person knows they have a problem and would probably welcome assistance. Of course, they would still prefer tactful assistance, such as polite suggestion, or perhaps a joke, or perhaps a distraction from the desie to eat - it all depends on the person.

An addict, on the other hand, is more like a morbidly obese person. Even though they know they have a problem, they cannot overcome their desire to eat. They trained their minds to indulge in the reward that comes with eating and their bodies responded by rewarding what they considered to be a rewarding activity, even when that activity is obviously to their detriment. The system has backfired, and both mind and body are caught in a loop where ever-greater quantities of sustenance are needed to achieve the threshold where the chemical reward for eating enough is delivered. Trying to limit or take away their food will often result in a hostile reponse. Even though their conscious minds know that eating more is bad for them, their body reacts in the same way that it would if they were starving and someone snatched away their last crumb of bread. Consequently, their conscious brain is overwhelmed with feelings of anger, self-pity, hatred, etc. etc... and they react as such. The fact that you are depriving them of food means very little compared to the fact that you are depriving them of the chemical reward that comes with eating. They don't even know why they feel the way the do, in most cases, but they still feel that way. I wish I could think of a simpler explanation.

In any case, even knowing all this, Dan's care is probably best left to professionals. Professional rehabilition therapists earn a living by helping people to overcome addictions, and they have had the opportunity to both learn from and observe firsthand the failures and successes of others. You may be struggling with whether to help him or leave him but as his friend I know that you would rather help him, yes? It may be tempting to try to help him all by yourself or reach out to him on a personal level, but the safe course of action would be to leave his counseling to a professional. Otherwise you could end up damaging your friendship and making his problem even worse. If he (or his body) percieves a threat to the chemical balance it has achieved he will most likely withdraw and try to hide his habits, which will do nothing to help him.

You say that Dan is a good guy, and if this is so then I encourage you to approach him in the most friendly manner possible (maybe even over a drink or two, but certainly not much more than that) and encourage him to just try a therapist once. If he recoils, do not press the issue. As his friend you are only suggesting something. Above all, you must not try to force anything. Forcing things will lead to the aforementioned natural reaction. You are not only dealing with Dan, but Dan's brain, and the body it controls, so you must be delicate.

Based on what little you have said of him my approach would be to invite him over for a couple drinks or something, and maybe ask how his daughter is doing (that doesn't sound quite right, but you get the idea). Maybe start a discussion about his plans for her in the future and such, wander OT for a while, steer the conversation to some parties or something where he indulged in the questionable behaviours, then come back to his daughter. With any luck, he'll figure things out on his own, or at least question them. Otherwise, you may have to try to tie something else in to it, like her college fund or her marriage or something. I'm doing my best to explain this but it really has to be done in a personal fashion. There is no algebraic formula I can give you where you insert x idea and add y comment and end up with z result. If you want to be his friend then you must be his friend, and that means understanding what he will react positively and negatively to.

To revisit my first point; remember that addicts are people, too. There is a reason why they do everything they do, even if it is not the right reason. Indeed, the way they act is a lot like the way the rest of us act, just on a different and more desperate level, and often with a co-opted consciousness. Everything that makes us human is still there, but on a more extreme level.

Since I've gone on this long already, let me provide another example to make the points above clear, not only to you FW, but to everyone.
How many here have ever been absolutely infatuated with a woman? Many, I'm guessing. A man? Ok, whatever, same thing. What would you do to protect this person? How would you react if someone wanted to rape or kill them? What would you do to protect a child you had with this person from similar fates?

With the exception of a few seriously f'ed-up individuals who I hope are not present here, the answers, I'm sure, will be fairly unanimous. Everybody would want to do something fairly awful to the offender. But why?

The easy answer is easy; "Because I love my (insert whomever here)". "Because I want to protect them." "Because I something something emotional or moral concept etc.. etc.."

Without going to much into human nature, I will suggest that this same kind of function is at work in the addict. What it really means is "I will harm, hate, or in some way fight whatever makes me feel bad". This is what makes addicts so difficult to deal with, and why they often require professional help. In dealing with Dan, you will want to use the same kind of tact and wit you would use when asking for his daughter's courtship (assuming she was of age, of course).


Maybe this advice will help, and maybe it was just a long and boring read, but one way or the other I will pray that your friend will find salvation somewhere other than in a chemical addiction, and that he will lead a good life henceforth.

[CaptainHaplo]

Frei - I gave alot of thought to this before I responded, because each situation is different.

Let me point out a couple of things to you that you may not realize.

You already tried to help this person.

At that point I rudely intervened and set his priority's straight! Or so I thought.

You have pointed out the dangers of his behavior, what it can cost him, etc. His response - proceed to indulge his weakness. His choice - not yours. As much as its human nature to want to help someone, you cannot do this for him. To be frank - its also not your job. You did the absolute best thing - interrupt immediately and force him to truly make a decision.
His decision - as his actions indicate - are made - at least for now. Regardless of him being a friend of not - the reality is his actions and decisions show you that he isn't ready to be helped - he isn't ready to help HIMSELF. You can't change that. This idea of "he needs a support system" is great - but ultimately, no support system can keep him clean unless he wants to be clean. In fact - the other night - he had a support system - YOU - and he didn't choose to use it. Thus nothing can help him until he decides on his own that he wants to make that decision. So then the next step falls on you for yourself.

Just tell him- hey man sorry, but until you are clean and stay that way, your not what I need or want around me. Nothing personal, but I have already had some bad experiences with people who choose the road your on, and I don't want that for you - but I really don't want it for me either. Stay clean and your welcome anytime - don't and your not welcome at all. Its the way its gotta be.

Its hard to do - but sometimes you have to remember that when you try to help people who don't want to help themselves - all you do is drag yourself down.

If his actions the other eve were different - the answer would be different. But he made it clear where his "priorities" are for himself. Now the question is - are your priorities him, or yourself?

[MothBalls]

That's a hard one. Everybody's advice, to go or to stay, has good points. My inclination would be to let him know that I really am a friend, and I want to help, but I can't let his problems ruin my life. I'd tell him I'm there for whatever he needs, but I won't let him take me down with him. After that, see how much he really wants to get straight, and take it from there.Exactly what I would do, good advice. Add to that, if your friends with any of his friends or know any of them, try to get them to do the same. If he starts hearing it from multiple directions it might have more impact.

There's a difference between a friend and an acquaintance. I have tons of acquaintances, very few close friends. I would never abandon a friend. I know the friends I have would never abandon me. I would consider what he's going through to be a disease no different than cancer or leukemia. I would do everything I could, and then some, to help him through this, because that's what friends do.

[FIREWALL]

If your so short on friends then, let him take you down with him. Misery loves company.

Drop him like a bad habit. You tried. Move on.