Gun safety, Gun thoughts and Gun Control and my shiny new CZ-75B!

[Freiwillige]

Having received my third firearm for Christmas, The First being a Polish surplus P-64 by Radom (Gone 2 weeks after I bought it thanks to my ex who decided to trade it to a dealer to support her habbit:nope:) My second a CZ-82 Czech Surplus (Gone 6 weeks after I bought it to a friend\roomate who was to hold on to it for $100 bucks so I could pay rent, When I got paid to get the gun back the next week as was per our deal, he had the gun no longer as he traded it for weed!:nope:) Man drug users are unreliable!

And now I got a CZ-75B for X-mas. I haven't been to the firing range in a bit and thought I would brush up on gun safety. Ive found four effective easy to remember rules.

1.A firearm is always loaded. (Treat it that way)
2.Never point the muzzle at anything you do not wish to destroy.
3.Never put your finger on the trigger until your ready to shoot.
4.Always be aware of your target and whats beyond it.

So now I will talk about the prolific pictures of idiots on the net who fail in most of those rules while posing for pictures. Common errors while looking gangsta for there myspace photo's are pointing gun at camera man\woman. Fingers on the trigger Etc.

One Photo has a guy pointing his new Glock at his GF and you can see the round loaded in the chamber through the barrel and his finger on the trigger! Now anybody who knows Glock knows that the only safety they have is built into the trigger. The only thing to stop that girl from meeting the God of her choice is less than 1" of trigger pull.:o

So now to the final point of this Topic. I believe in all Americans rights to own a Firearm for sport, protection or the basic exercising of their second amendment rights and from what I have seen gun control doesn't work worth a spit.

So what about having mandatory gun safety classes and a bit of training with each firearms purchase?

Buy a shotgun and have an expert spend an hour with you at the range familiarizing you with the weapon and making sure your competent with it and understand the fundamentals of safety as opposed to all these dumb laws that either take guns away or just give guns away. I mean you have to pass a driving test, why not a firearms responsibility test? Nothing too complex just some basic common sense and firearm familiarity instruction?

Just my thoughts.

[Boris]

Um, you guys don't have mandatory firearms training for your licence?... You do need a licence right? :o

[Freiwillige]

Each state has its own laws but for my State which is one of the most pro gun states (Being the Wild Wild West and all) all you need is an drivers license and your finger prints and they run an instant background check. 20 minutes and no criminal record and you can walk out with a shiny new pistol or rifle or shotgun.

[Torvald Von Mansee]

I remember seeing on "The First 48" where this one guy was cleared of a murder as it was in self-defense, but was still charged w/a felony for possessing a handgun. So, if he obeyed the law, he might very well be dead.

That, my friends, is what we call BULL****.

(Yes, I know the story is anecdotal, you don't have to point it out, gun controllers)

[Tribesman]

Was there ever a post demonstrating a more irresponsible person who should never be allowed access to firearms.
Gone 2 weeks after I bought it thanks to my ex who decided to trade it to a dealer to support her habbit
Your gun went to a drugs dealer:doh:
Gone 6 weeks after I bought it to a friend\roomate who was to hold on to it for $100 bucks so I could pay rent, When I got paid to get the gun back the next week as was per our deal, he had the gun no longer as he traded it for weed
Your gun went to a drugs dealer:doh:

There you have it kids , next time you read about some junkie doing some armed crime think of their good buddy Freiwillige who likes to facilitate violent crime

Nothing too complex just some basic common sense
:har::har::har::har::har::har:
Basic common sense. ........
1.Don't date a junkie. If you are that desperate that you have to date a junkie then don't let them have your gun.....
2.If you really are that desperate for a small amount of cash then sell your gun to a registered arms dealer, don't give it to a junkie as collateral.
3.If you do have severe financial problems, like struggling with basics like keeping a roof over your head then don't waste money on a gun that you obviously didn't need.:down:

[CptSimFreak]

They are called gunlocks. Use them. Also, change friends.

[d@rk51d3]

Just had my application for Cat A, B & C licenses approved.

Now just have to wait till March 13 for my training, and subsequent License.


http://www.sapolice.sa.gov.au/sapol/services/firearms_weapons/firearms_clubs_licences_registration/categories_access_and_security_of_firearms.jsp

[XabbaRus]

Man drug users are unreliable!


So why trust them round your guns?

[Lt.Fillipidis]

You cant even trust yourself around guns sometimes.
You could have run into serious trouble if that guy had done something with your gun. I dont know about USA laws but in Europe, when handling a gun you have to keep it in its case, disassembled, bullets in their box and carry it ONLY when you go from shooting range to home and vice versa.
Plus, you have to be member of a shooting club for at least two years to earn the right to have a gun. And then you go through psychological tests and a judge.
If you can follow all the above, you're safe from mishandlings.

[August]

Guess what's gonna happen when one of those guns are used in a crime, say a multiple murder, and they trace it back to you. Hope you've reported the thefts...

[NeonSamurai]

Ya seriously. You would be in a world of trouble if you lived here and they found out how you lost your first 2.

[Sailor Steve]

Um, you guys don't have mandatory firearms training for your licence?... You do need a licence right? :o
To carry a concealed weapon on your person, yes, you need a license and the training that goes with it.

To simply own one, or keep one in your home? No. Not where I live, anyway.

[Sailor Steve]

I dont know about USA laws but in Europe, when handling a gun you have to keep it in its case, disassembled, bullets in their box and carry it ONLY when you go from shooting range to home and vice versa.
In that case I don't see much point in owning one. I only have two. One is a 70-year-old rifle I treasure, which is kept locked in a safe place, and the other is a modern pistol I keep just in case I find someone in my home who doesn't belong there.

Plus, you have to be member of a shooting club for at least two years to earn the right to have a gun. And then you go through psychological tests and a judge.
If you can follow all the above, you're safe from mishandlings.
I than case it's not a right at all, but a privelege granted by those who control you.

[Steel_Tomb]

I would be a bit worried about those guns that were lost. Like others have said, should those guns be used and the police track it you could be landed in a lot of trouble.

Personally, I would really like to join a shooting club and own a rifle. When I was in cadets I loved shooting and had quite a few marksmen rewards. There seem to be a LOT of regulations regarding firearm ownership in the UK. I'm not complaining, I think to own a firearm is a great responsibility... not just for yourself but for other people.

Perhaps in the future I could be proud owner of a shiny rifle :salute:.

Does anyone from the UK in here own a firearm? Do the licenses/club fees cost a lot?

[ajrimmer42]

any pics of your CZ???

Not quite the same I know, but I've just ordered a Tokyo Marui Glock 26 Advance GBB airsoft pistol, damn I can't wait!!! :arrgh!: That's about as close as most of us Brits get.

[Freiwillige]

@ Tribsman and XabbaRus You both have quite valid points. I thought about leaving out those embarrassing facts but I'm too honest for my own good.

The X-wife was not a drug addict when I married her. 6 months into the relationship she decided that sitting at home was boring while I was hard at work so she took up using Meth with her old high school friends. I had put her through rehab and she was cured (LOL) but she still had some strange people showing up at our apt. even in the middle of the night so I bought a gun. One day I went out and she wanted to stay home and do laundry. She pleaded I leave my gun for her safety. I argued against it at first but she thought that one of her addict acquaintances would show up and do her harm so I finally relented. A half an hour later she was gone and so was my pistol. I cannot confirm what happened to it but since I didnt see her for a week and she came home all cracked out and without my firearm it seemed pretty obvious to me. I packed and left her and let her know that the Gun was reported stolen and last seen in her possession. 12 months and it was finally over.

The second situation I was actually going to go to a pawn store but my roommate was like Ill give you the money and since we work together you can pay me back next week. His official story was that he needed money for car insurance and sold it to his dad but again he was a pot head so my assumptions are probably dead on.

From now on my gun stays in my safe or if I have it out its to the range and back.

I have learned when it comes to firearms not to trust anybody.
Call it learning from past mistakes at least I learned.

[Freiwillige]

any pics of your CZ???

Not quite the same I know, but I've just ordered a Tokyo Marui Glock 26 Advance GBB airsoft pistol, damn I can't wait!!! :arrgh!: That's about as close as most of us Brits get.

Here ya go....
http://www.gunsnthings.com/Photos/CZ_folder/CZ75B.jpg

[Platapus]

Those CZ-75's look like sweet weapons. :yeah:

[Freiwillige]

Its a great weapon, Ergonomics are top notch, realiability is read to be top notch as well and it is Nato qualified if that tells you anything.

Its really influanced by the Browning Hi Power but ads some of its own unique features as well such as a slide that rides on the inside of the frame as opposed to the outside which makes it a tighter and more accurate weapon.

And acourding to CZ-usa's website more Military, Police and governments use the CZ-75 than any other sidearm in the world.

The prices are good and Col. Jeff Cooper considered it the finest firearm in that calibre in the world. That says alot coming from a Colt M1911 guy.

I couldn't be more pleased and cant wait until Saturday to head out to the Range.....Ill let you all know how it turns out:salute:

[Onkel Neal]

Here ya go....
http://www.gunsnthings.com/Photos/CZ_folder/CZ75B.jpg

Yeah, very nice looking weapon. :yep: How many rounds does it hold?

I was shooting at the indoor range last week. Bought some reload .40 cal ammo for my Ruger P-94; had my first jam, could not work the slide, had to use a screwdriver to work the round loose. That was unsettling. Not sure if it was the gun or the ammo, I went with factory loads from then on and did not have any more problems.

[Ducimus]

To carry a concealed weapon on your person, yes, you need a license and the training that goes with it.

To simply own one, or keep one in your home? No. Not where I live, anyway.


California is a tinsy bit more anal. Im not sure what the regulations are for a concealed weapons permit, but..

For all long guns, (basically anything that's not a handgun), you have a 10 day waiting (cooling off) period. I can walk in to my local sporting goods store, provide a valid california drivers license, a fingerprint, cope up a background check fee, and come back in 10 days to take possesion of the weapon. Which BTW, has to have the breach locked in the open position with a special lock for it to be leagally transportable.

for handguns, apply all of the above with the addition of proof of attendence to a handgun safety course.


As for general firearm safety, along with the aforemetioned 4 rules, there's two others i go by.

5.) Always shoot center of mass

6.) requalify on the operation of the weapon.

Once in a blue moon, i will take my home defense shotgun, remove/lock up all the live ammo, and go through the operation of the weapon with snap caps / dummy rounds. Loading, unloading, cycling the action, breach loading, etc. I do this mainly for the bennfit of my spouse whom ill probably end up proposing to in another 5 months. If anyone ever breaks into our apartment, i want to make sure that firearm is 2nd nature and familiar.

[Freiwillige]

@ Neil, It could very well have been the ammunition. I know that if your powder charge is too low it can have problems extracting. It could also have been you limp wristing although you have shot your gun with other rounds without Issue so i doubt it is your hold on the Firearm. Lastly it could just be in need of a proper cleaning. I know some guns are just downright hatefull of certain kinds or brands of ammunition. I know that the CZ-forum guys recommend staying far away from brass ammunition for extraction issues with the CZ-75b until broken in. My Christmas firearm comes out of my mothers extensive collection and has had 26 rounds through it. Two ten round clips the day she bought it and the six at the factory. So its like new! It can hold 16 rounds +1 chambered but it was bought in 2005 while Clinton's no Hi-cap law was in effect so 1/4th of my magazines are solid plastic limiting it to 10 rounds. I will be replacing those with the original 16 round magazines soon.

@ Dimicus, To help keep the firearm in memmory I clean and field strip it often. Having a gun makes you safe like having a guitar makes you a musician. Its a tool and you have to familiarize yourself with its every function. You have to learn how to utilize it effectively in any situation which you may come across with said tool. I was fortunate to grow up around a bunch of Marines who loved to go shooting. I have learned to field strip and fire many variety's of firearms and had the pleasure of seeing an M-2 50 caliber Mg in action. So having not owned many firearms I have a long history of firing a great many of them. From rifles to shotguns to handguns I've played with allot just never had the urge to own one until I was in my 30's.

Some of the Best on this list of Guns I have had the pleasure to acquaint myself with and would always recommend are the...

Sig 226 (Sidearm of the United States Navy Seals) Great in both .40 and 9mm (Will own one someday)
http://www.gunshopfinder.com/sig/p226-navy-large.jpg

Springfield Socom M1A. Again great rifle and I will own one one day.
http://www.keepshooting.com/productimages/firearms/rifles/springfield-socom-16-riflebig.jpg

Ak-47 semi automatic Romanian import

Smith and Wesson 500 magnum. A .50 caliber round handgun that knocked the .44 magnum of the list of most powerful handgun category. I can tell you this one hurts to shoot!
http://lundestudio.com/wallpaper/sw500-4-left-full-hi.jpg.

[Onkel Neal]

It could also have been you limp wristing although you have shot your gun with other rounds without Issue so i doubt it is your hold on the Firearm.

:huh: What is "limp wristing"?

[Snestorm]

:huh: What is "limp wristing"?

Allowing the muzzle to be lifted by the recoil.

[Torvald Von Mansee]

This:

http://www.whatsthelatest.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/WorldsLargestRevolverPfeiferZeliska.600_14C5B/worldslargestrevolver.jpg

Supposedly fires this:

http://www.funis2cool.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/pfeifer-zeliska-600-nitro-express-revolver-04.jpg

Personally, I think the first photo is photoshopped.

[OneToughHerring]

Not sure if it was that gun, or some other Czech gun, or maybe a Russian Makarov or Tokarev, but that one gun had pretty amazing power and durability. They managed to punch through a metal sheet of certain millimeters with it, a feat that wasn't equalled by many other hand guns.

Edit. Again I'd like to take this opportunity to expone the importance of gun safety. A lot of young guys are very into guns etc. and even if they think they are being careful, accidents still happen. I had my mishaps from which I (hopefully) learned from.

[Freiwillige]

@ Neil, Limp wristing is when you fire an automatic pistol and as the slide is coming back towards you you let the recoil kick the gun up. your wrist and hold on the firearm provides a stable enough base to let the kinetic energy of the slide eject the cartridge and slam the next one in place. When you let the recoil overpower your hold it robs the slide of some of its energy and often it doesn't have the power to eject the cartridge fully creating a "stove pipe"

A Stove pipe is when the bullet casing is not ejected fully from the firing chamber and hangs with the open end out of your pistol pinched in the slide.

It really sounds like your ammo to me.

[ETR3(SS)]

I'd have to agree with the ammo theory. I had a double feed stove pipe on my 1911 at the range when I first got it. That wasn't an easy one to clear.:nope: Was using reloaded ammo as well.

[August]

I had a reloaded round not have enough power to even push the bullet out of the barrel of my M1911. Luckly it didn't push the round far enough for the next round to go all the way into battery, or I might be typing one handed now.

[antikristuseke]

You cant even trust yourself around guns sometimes.
You could have run into serious trouble if that guy had done something with your gun. I dont know about USA laws but in Europe, when handling a gun you have to keep it in its case, disassembled, bullets in their box and carry it ONLY when you go from shooting range to home and vice versa.
Plus, you have to be member of a shooting club for at least two years to earn the right to have a gun. And then you go through psychological tests and a judge.
If you can follow all the above, you're safe from mishandlings.

That may be the case in Greece, but over here firearms laws are very different. Allso being a an active member in the Defence League makes my case even more different than most. I Have my service assault rifle and pistol at home at all times, assembled and loaded magazines nearby with a supply of loose ammo aaswell. If i were not in the defensce league it would still be wasyer for mr to own and carry pistols.

[Sailor Steve]

Personally, I think the first photo is photoshopped.
If it isn't the recoil is going to turn that guy's whole body into pulp!
:rotfl2:

[Platapus]

The prices are good and Col. Jeff Cooper considered it the finest firearm in that calibre in the world. That says alot coming from a Colt M1911 guy.


Wow to get Cooper to say anything nice about a 9mm is noteworthy! :o

[Freiwillige]

Went to the Range today! It was a beautiful day, Bright and sunny with temps in the Mid 70's.

Pulled out the a couple .22 handguns to teach my Girl a bit of gun safety and we target shot some good groups at 10 yards.

Then the CZ came out and performed better than I had expected pulling tighter groupings than either of the Glock's my sister and mother were shooting.

I only put forty rounds through her but she handled them nicely and left a big smile on my Girls face when she had her chance.

CZ-75B gets :yeah:

[OneToughHerring]

That may be the case in Greece, but over here firearms laws are very different. Allso being a an active member in the Defence League makes my case even more different than most. I Have my service assault rifle and pistol at home at all times, assembled and loaded magazines nearby with a supply of loose ammo aaswell. If i were not in the defensce league it would still be wasyer for mr to own and carry pistols.

Do you store them in special locked cabinets with the bullets in a another? We have the system where if you're active in the reserve you have the right to buy a semiauto version of the service weapon. But not sure if it's allowed to be kept at home.

I've also heard that in Latvia it's possible to pay a little money and shoot a full auto AK. I guess anything goes in the Baltics. :)

[CaptainHaplo]

Since it was mentioned, I have to say my Makarov 9mm has been my prefered carry piece for years. How do you find the balance on the CZ? I have tried the 75b compact (100mm barrel vs 120mm) and found it was not comfortable for me personally. I haven't had a chance to try the 120mm barrel version, but I look forward to it.

Are you sticking with the stock grips? Most designs fare better with rubberized grips, and they are easy to change on most pistols.

To me, the balance and SA trigger pull are the two most important "comfort" factors for how a pistol feels when fired.

[Freiwillige]

The stainless steel version already comes with better rubber grips and I like the feel. The balance is great, not to front heavy but with enough meat on her overall to help absorb the recoil a bit. The SA trigger is a dream without much pull or distance and in my opinion superior to the Glock 19C I had fun with as well today. The double action is a bit gritty and not as smooth but I expected that and cant complain to bad. I have read that usage over time really smoths things out.

I am impressed over all with the gun. I still have a soft spot for Makorov chambered pistols as my last two were and will be getting another CZ-82 next. I just love their military simplicity!

[Happy Times]

Having received my third firearm for Christmas, The First being a Polish surplus P-64 by Radom (Gone 2 weeks after I bought it thanks to my ex who decided to trade it to a dealer to support her habbit:nope:) My second a CZ-82 Czech Surplus (Gone 6 weeks after I bought it to a friend\roomate who was to hold on to it for $100 bucks so I could pay rent, When I got paid to get the gun back the next week as was per our deal, he had the gun no longer as he traded it for weed!:nope:) Man drug users are unreliable!

And now I got a CZ-75B for X-mas. I haven't been to the firing range in a bit and thought I would brush up on gun safety. Ive found four effective easy to remember rules.

1.A firearm is always loaded. (Treat it that way)
2.Never point the muzzle at anything you do not wish to destroy.
3.Never put your finger on the trigger until your ready to shoot.
4.Always be aware of your target and whats beyond it.

So now I will talk about the prolific pictures of idiots on the net who fail in most of those rules while posing for pictures. Common errors while looking gangsta for there myspace photo's are pointing gun at camera man\woman. Fingers on the trigger Etc.

One Photo has a guy pointing his new Glock at his GF and you can see the round loaded in the chamber through the barrel and his finger on the trigger! Now anybody who knows Glock knows that the only safety they have is built into the trigger. The only thing to stop that girl from meeting the God of her choice is less than 1" of trigger pull.:o

So now to the final point of this Topic. I believe in all Americans rights to own a Firearm for sport, protection or the basic exercising of their second amendment rights and from what I have seen gun control doesn't work worth a spit.

So what about having mandatory gun safety classes and a bit of training with each firearms purchase?

Buy a shotgun and have an expert spend an hour with you at the range familiarizing you with the weapon and making sure your competent with it and understand the fundamentals of safety as opposed to all these dumb laws that either take guns away or just give guns away. I mean you have to pass a driving test, why not a firearms responsibility test? Nothing too complex just some basic common sense and firearm familiarity instruction?

Just my thoughts.

I dont think that you have acted responsibly as an gun owner should.

Your points about safety in handling a gun are offcourse true.

The way you lost your previous guns is criminal negligence in nature from your part.:nope:

I would NEVER give MY guns as a pawn for a loan and cant understand why someone would???!!!

As with all or rights there are also responsibilities on the otherside and you have failed, big time.

I would think the police wouldnt be very happy with you, here you wouldnt even get a new gun for a while, if ever.

[CaptainHaplo]

Its important for our European friends to realize that gun laws in the US vary not only from their own, but also from state to state.

While I agree that Frei's earlier handling of firearms was less than responsible, such actions in the US do not mean his right to own another is somehow void. In the US, any citizen has the right to own a handgun provided they have no felony conviction or other legal issue that removes that right. This is why background checks are in place.

The majority of difference in the laws revolve around its carry and storage. A person is required, in most states, to take safety classes should they want to pursue a concealed carry permit. But ownership is the US, unlike Europe, is an ingrained right that many people chose to avail themselves of, albeit not always responsibly.

However, Frei's honesty about the earlier issues does indicate that he recognizes the mistakes made, and thus is much less likely to repeat them. Instead of castigating him for things that may have happened many years ago (since I don't think a time table was given), it would be better to simply remind him not to make the same errors.

As for European gun laws, and the desire to register and control every firearm in the US as well, I point to that Hitler used the Weimar Republic's earlier gun and ammunition registration as a means of identifying and confiscating the guns of Jews and opponents.

Both sides of the gun control issue have valid points, but the US has continually leaned toward the rights of the citizen over the rights of the government in most cases.

Its important to remember that guns don't kill people - they are simply tools - it is PEOPLE who use guns to kill others. Guns are not inherently evil, it is the people who use them badly that are. You cannot legislate away "bad" acts, but to penalize and restrict the law abiding does nothing more than put them at a disadvantage. Or, as some like to say - "If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have them...."

[Torvald Von Mansee]

If it isn't the recoil is going to turn that guy's whole body into pulp!
:rotfl2:

Maybe he could fire it w/a drawstring or something.

Anyway, it looks like a fine weapon for home defense.

[OneToughHerring]

CaptainHaplo,

the guy is pawning his weapons for some drug user who subsequently sells it off and you're hitting us with the hitler-card? Sheesh...

[CaptainHaplo]

CaptainHaplo,

the guy is pawning his weapons for some drug user who subsequently sells it off and you're hitting us with the hitler-card? Sheesh...

OK - this is a strawman arguement - and as I posted before - lets examine why.

You say he is pawning his weapons for some drug user. That is not what was stated - and you know it. Frei himself did not pawn his first weapon, but instead intrusted it to his wife - who then pawned it. While he did use bad judgement - he is not the one that sold/pawned the weapon for drugs. In the second instance he trusted a friend to hold the firearm for him, but instead that person pawned the firearm. In neither case did Frei go intentionally put his gun up for sale so that another person could get drugs. He used horrible judgement - we both agree there - but to make a claim that he is somehow "pawning his weapons for some drug user" is an outright fabrication.

As for "hitting with the hitler card" - I simply pointed out historical fact. You can dislike the US laws regarding guns, but there are historical facts that show that total gun and ammunition registration leads to the control and later inaccessibility of those firearms to the citizenry. There are also significant sources that show that crime is HIGHER where the citizenry has no open access to firearms.

We can discuss this topic OTH, but your going to have to stop over-reaching with claims that are not accurate. If you can't debate the realities, then making up things to support your arguement is going to get called out every time.

[OneToughHerring]

So what you're saying is actually a worse accusation then what I said. Horrible judgment vs. what I said, what's the difference? You do stuff like that in the past and you're likely to do similar stuff in the future.

I don't really care about the overall situation in the States, you all can shoot each other for all I care. I just don't want the same mentality to spread to my country.

[Happy Times]

OK - this is a strawman arguement - and as I posted before - lets examine why.

You say he is pawning his weapons for some drug user. That is not what was stated - and you know it. Frei himself did not pawn his first weapon, but instead intrusted it to his wife - who then pawned it. While he did use bad judgement - he is not the one that sold/pawned the weapon for drugs. In the second instance he trusted a friend to hold the firearm for him, but instead that person pawned the firearm. In neither case did Frei go intentionally put his gun up for sale so that another person could get drugs. He used horrible judgement - we both agree there - but to make a claim that he is somehow "pawning his weapons for some drug user" is an outright fabrication.

As for "hitting with the hitler card" - I simply pointed out historical fact. You can dislike the US laws regarding guns, but there are historical facts that show that total gun and ammunition registration leads to the control and later inaccessibility of those firearms to the citizenry. There are also significant sources that show that crime is HIGHER where the citizenry has no open access to firearms.

We can discuss this topic OTH, but your going to have to stop over-reaching with claims that are not accurate. If you can't debate the realities, then making up things to support your arguement is going to get called out every time.

I dont have anything against the US gun policy in general, on the contrary.

Maybe i misunderstood but i read it so that he pawned the second gun to a friend for rent money, if that is legal then im wrong in calling it illegal and i apologize.

Im not trying to preach to him, its just that i think loosing ones guns like this does a disservice to us all, even globally, that want guns to be available to responsible citizens.

[CaptainHaplo]

Horrible judgment vs. what I said, what's the difference?

I respect you don't want the views here predominant in your country. Thats your right. But to compare bad judgement with intentionally putting guns on the street for drugs and saying there is no difference is a bit of a stretch.

Thats like saying your buddy asks to borrow your car to go to work, you let him, and then he goes after work and gets drunk and kills someone. You didn't know he was going to do that. Thats bad judgement though if you knew he had a drinking problem.

Whats the difference? Compare that with taking him to the bar, getting him drunk - then putting the keys in his hand and telling him you will find another way home. There is a rather obvious difference.

Trusting someone and having that trust betrayed is alot different than intentionally committing an act you know is wrong. You tried to infer motives to Frei that you have can't prove. When that failed, you now come up with "whats the difference?" when the difference is obvious.

Instead of jumping into a discussion where you say you:
I don't really care about the overall situation in the States, you all can shoot each other for all I care. I just don't want the same mentality to spread to my country. - perhaps you should just realize that this little thread at Subsim.com isn't likely to suddenly overturn your national thinking on guns - so you can just move on. Unless of course, the statement quoted above was in fact not true - and you do care....:rotfl2:

[OneToughHerring]

I respect you don't want the views here predominant in your country. Thats your right. But to compare bad judgement with intentionally putting guns on the street for drugs and saying there is no difference is a bit of a stretch.

Thats like saying your buddy asks to borrow your car to go to work, you let him, and then he goes after work and gets drunk and kills someone. You didn't know he was going to do that. Thats bad judgement though if you knew he had a drinking problem.

If you can't tell the difference between guns and cars then the situation is worse then I thought.

Whats the difference? Compare that with taking him to the bar, getting him drunk - then putting the keys in his hand and telling him you will find another way home. There is a rather obvious difference.

Trusting someone and having that trust betrayed is alot different than intentionally committing an act you know is wrong. You tried to infer motives to Frei that you have can't prove. When that failed, you now come up with "whats the difference?" when the difference is obvious.

Instead of jumping into a discussion where you say you:
- perhaps you should just realize that this little thread at Subsim.com isn't likely to suddenly overturn your national thinking on guns - so you can just move on. Unless of course, the statement quoted above was in fact not true - and you do care....:rotfl2:

Well I have to say I do take a certain pleasure from seeing particularily nasty cases of guns being misused in the States. And there are plenty of these cases pretty much every day. That Americans themselves don't seem to care about what goes in their country and think they can wall themselves in gated communities etc. is just, as Happy Times above said, bad for the whole world.

[Snestorm]

Please don't piss off the finns too much as Sako is my favorite firearms manufacturer.

[Onkel Neal]

Well I have to say I do take a certain pleasure from seeing particularily nasty cases of guns being misused in the States.

Quoted for posterity and simple amazement.

[Happy Times]

Quoted for posterity and simple amazement.

You could print a book from those, do you keep him here for amusement value?

[OneToughHerring]

Quoted for posterity and simple amazement.

I don't think you understand how hated the US is around the world. But like I said, go ahead and shoot yourselves, if the second amendment produces a lot of dead Americans, I'm for it. :yeah:

Just some recent news.

http://www.wlwt.com/news/22184505/detail.html
http://www.wfsb.com/news/22181447/detail.html
http://www.wptv.com/content/news/centralpbc/rivierabeach/story/New-system-to-track-gunshots-in-Riviera-Beach/Ma7kXSZX-UKfLr5IbFxy6g.cspx

[Schroeder]

Aren't you the guy who is usually playing the racist card on others?
Now what would you call your last post?:nope:

[OneToughHerring]

Aren't you the guy who is usually playing the racist card on others?
Now what would you call your last post?:nope:

Are you saying Americans are a race? :06:

[CaptainHaplo]

Happy Times - the informal "loan for security" between Frei and his friend on the second case would depend on the state law regarding transfer of a firearm. Without knowing the law where he lives, I can't say if it was legal or not. However, it was his intent as he stated to recover the weapon shortly, only to find that his friend had hocked the weapon. That act - hocking the firearm when his friend did not have true legal ownership - is what is unquestionably illegal.

[OneToughHerring]

What about the paperwork? Was the weapon legally Frei's to begin with or was it a 'hot' gun to begin with? That's the feeling I'm getting from the story.

[Schroeder]

Are you saying Americans are a race? :06:
No, not at all. But isn't it usually you who is screaming bloody murder if someone expresses his dislike of certain people?
I am just wondering why someone who is seeing and pointing at racism everywhere (whether it is there or not) shows a total undifferentiated hate towards all ~310 million people who are living in a certain country.

[CaptainHaplo]

OTH - you really do make this too easy.

I read all three articles you listed. In the first, no shots were fired at all. An irresponsible person who had a gun had his taken from him through a judicial process - so what you did was prove that our system can work. Gee - you scored one for the good ole USA! Way to go! :har:

In the second, a person who had already been convicted of a crime had a firearm - thus the case has nothing to do with firearm laws since he was violating those laws by having the shotgun in his posession. However, its interesting to note that the bad guy is the only person that got shot.... If a violent criminal wants to endanger the public by having an illegal firearm and happens to get shot because of it - I say thats fine. If he happens to get killed - one less violent criminal and one less problem for our society. Seems to me to be another win!

THe last article isn't about an incident - but about an area that sees a high number of shootings - attributed to gang activities. Once again, the article has nothing at all to do with legal gun ownership or usage, but with a criminal element that ignores firearm laws.

Now we could examine legal firearms use by citizens. Here are some nice links.

http://www.wlky.com/news/22063314/detail.html (http://www.wlky.com/news/22063314/detail.html)

http://www.wzzm13.com/news/news_story.aspx?storyid=117155&catid=14 (http://www.wzzm13.com/news/news_story.aspx?storyid=117155&catid=14)

http://www.wlbt.com/Global/story.asp?S=10758963&nav=2CSf (http://www.wlbt.com/Global/story.asp?S=10758963&nav=2CSf)

http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2010/01/burglary_suspect_killed_at_she.html (http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2010/01/burglary_suspect_killed_at_she.html)

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/local&id=7201121 (http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/local&id=7201121)

http://www.click2houston.com/news/22117126/detail.html (http://www.click2houston.com/news/22117126/detail.html)

http://cbs11tv.com/local/dallas.subway.robbery.2.1403109.html (http://cbs11tv.com/local/dallas.subway.robbery.2.1403109.html)

http://www.krqe.com/dpp/news/crime/home-invasion-suspect-recovering (http://www.krqe.com/dpp/news/crime/home-invasion-suspect-recovering)

http://www.wsoctv.com/news/22122338/detail.html (http://www.wsoctv.com/news/22122338/detail.html)

http://www.kxii.com/home/headlines/80635977.html (http://www.kxii.com/home/headlines/80635977.html)

http://www.news-bulletin.com/nb/index.php/news/1309-Burglary-suspect-shot-by-Jarales-homeowner.html (http://www.news-bulletin.com/nb/index.php/news/1309-Burglary-suspect-shot-by-Jarales-homeowner.html)

http://www.mercedsunstar.com/168/story/1261133.html (http://www.mercedsunstar.com/168/story/1261133.html)

In each of these cases - a firearm was instrumental in keeping a person alive, protecting property, or injuring/killing a criminal. I don't lose sleep over the criminal elements of my country being taken out by law abiding citizens, and I in fact sleep soundly knowing that I have the same right and ability to defend my family and property - using lethal force when justified.

The facts are that an armed citizenry suffers less violent crime than an unarmed on. Look at the violent crime statistics of the US vs Europe. Even without the "manipulation" that European authorities use in reporting crimes (such as a string of burglaries in three adjacent apartments being reports as a single crime) - the US still has less violent crime by percentage. There is a reason for it....

Thanks for the initial links - its always nice when an opponent provides data that proves himself wrong and me right.

[OneToughHerring]

No, not at all. But isn't it usually you who is screaming bloody murder if someone expresses his dislike of certain people?
I am just wondering why someone who is seeing and pointing at racism everywhere (whether it is there or not) shows a total undifferentiated hate towards all ~310 million people who are living in a certain country.

If I say I am in favour of the second amendment, does that mean I am "showing a total undifferentiated hate toward all ~310 million people who are living in a certain country"?

CaptHaplo,

Hey, I didn't even mean to start a debate about this but good to know you all are really sensitive and stuff about the whole thing. Keep it up. :har:

As a response I suggest people google the gun crime/death/injury figures of US and the rest of the western world and compare them and the respective gun legislations of the various nations.

[TFatseas]

I don't think you understand how hated the US is around the world. But like I said, go ahead and shoot yourselves, if the second amendment produces a lot of dead Americans, I'm for it. :yeah:


Wow, you really are a piece of work.


@Freiwilliage, I heard nothing but good things about the CZ. I think you will be pleased.

Sounds like a very underrated firearms.

[CaptainHaplo]

Ahhh - Another strawman from the OTH fella...

As a response I suggest people google the gun crime/death/injury figures of US and the rest of the western world and compare them and the respective gun legislations of the various nations.

See - this is exactly what I was talking about. My comment was NOT gun crime/death/injury figures. What I stated was: Look at the violent crime statistics of the US vs Europe.

There is a big difference between the two - and you well know it. But hey, I guess since you can't win the debate on facts, you have to try to change the topic of the debate. Good attempt though.

Also - as I noted above - your continued presence and attempt to steer the discussion, though failing - does at least show that your earlier statement was not true. You do care!

I want you to know I am confident that your heartfelt concern, as evidenced by your involvement in the discussion, makes many people feel really all warm and fuzzy. You try to make out like you hate Americans, when really you just love us all. How.... touching.:haha:

[August]

You could print a book from those, do you keep him here for amusement value?

I'm beginning to wonder that myself. Neal has the patience of Mother Teresa.

[OneToughHerring]

There is a big difference between the two - and you well know it. But hey, I guess since you can't win the debate on facts, you have to try to change the topic of the debate. Good attempt though.

So if guns kill ~ 10 000 people in US per year while at the same time only few hundred in all European nations...this means nothing to you?

I want you to know I am confident that your heartfelt concern, as evidenced by your involvement in the discussion, makes many people feel really all warm and fuzzy. You try to make out like you hate Americans, when really you just love us all. How.... touching.:haha:Yes, I do love you, I love you to death. :DL

[Onkel Neal]

I don't think you understand how hated the US is around the world.



Actually, we really don't care, you know? You are aware, that most Americans are totally disinterested in Finnish opinion, politics, current events... as they are with most European and foreign opinion, politics, current events--you know that is mostly a European obsession with all things American that keeps you in tune with our daily affairs? Trust me, it's not a two way street. Most Americans could not cite your country's crime statistics or name the capital of any foreign nation, cept maybe France and England. And if you try to shame them with their ignorance, you may get a laugh and a shrug.



Are you saying Americans are a race? :06:



No, but "if the second amendment produces a lot of dead Americans, I'm for it" is hate speech. And we went over that, right?

Look, OTH, I realize you have some deep-seated angst toward authority, Americans, etc. But maybe you can find another forum to post that rubbish. There are times when you participate in discussions here without going around the room kicking everyone in the shins, that's why you're still here. But if you're looking to get a complete expulsion, keep it up.

Edit: let me be clear, I do not want that to sound like a threat, OTH. Just please, keep your anti-American feelings somewhere else, ok?

You could print a book from those, do you keep him here for amusement value?

No, actually I would have guessed most people would have him on their ignore list by now (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/profile.php?do=ignorelist) :)

[CaptainHaplo]

Ok - I will try not to be patronizing so that I don't create more sillyness.

To answer your question OTH - "So if guns kill ~ 10 000 people in US per year while at the same time only few hundred in all European nations...this means nothing to you" - yes it does mean something

It means that overall violent crime statistics take into account gun crimes - so by outlawing guns, you create higher OVERALL violent crime - as is seen when comparing the violent crime numbers between the US and Europe.

Ultimately it means with guns being legal, you get X amount of crime. With guns being illegal, you get Y amount of crime. Compare the numbers, and you find that X is less than Y in this case.

End result - an armed citizenry means less overall violent crime.

[Freiwillige]

Okay guys take a minute and think about what your saying! America has allot of guns and its a historical ideal in our nation good or bad. But if your going to start throwing out facts about "Evil gun murders" and "Dead American's" lets look at the fact that guns actually save lives time and time again!

Many American's shoot another person for their very survival. In fact its more common for a shooting to take place for defense than for offense! But the kicker is that only the bad side of gun violence usually makes headlines. Congress doesn't care if 80 year old Joe America shoots a young thug breaking into his farmhouse to save his wife. They care about the bad guy who shoots up a school with his automatic AK-47. Those who scream the loudest get the most attention. I know that most of the world see's America as gun toting barbarians who have daily shootouts as if it was still the wildwest! It doesn't matter to me one bit what liberals and the ultra educated think about American's when all they know is what they read.

I have never known anybody in all my years to get shot by a gun. Yet I know many that have guns. And in my experience where there are guns there is less crime. But take places like New york city or Washington DC where firearms are banned and you have a violence and murder rate that's through the roof and I can draw my own conclusions.

Texas is pretty liberal on its gun policy, In fact I have never met a Texan that did not have a gun yet I doubt the murder rate there matches places where guns are banned.

I have learned from my past mistakes, which is what they are mistakes. I do give people the benefit of the doubt and I admit I am probably too trusting. In both prior cases the outcome is not what I had anticipated. Its life and you live and learn. I am a better man today for what I have learned in the past. I love my freedom to own a gun and I look forward to pursue that en devour in as a responsible way as I can.

Happy new year to all. And if you idealize the idea of American's killing American's with firearms than it is my sincere hope that you never have the freedom to have one.

We will keep that barbaric right all to ourselves and GOD BLESS AMERICA!

[Platapus]

In fact its more common for a shooting to take place for defense than for offense!

I would be very interested in seeing your citation for this "fact".

[August]

I would be very interested in seeing your citation for this "fact".

Probably not one that you'd pronounce unbiased, but then again neutrality on this subject isn't likely to be found.

[Platapus]

Probably not one that you'd pronounce unbiased, but then again neutrality on this subject isn't likely to be found.

yeah I did not think so. But it is a spinal-cord knee jerk response of mine when the term "fact" is bantered about. :D

[Freiwillige]

http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/noframedex.html

http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/images/dgustats.gif

According to the National Self Defense Survey conducted by Florida State University criminologists in 1994, the rate of Defensive Gun Uses can be projected nationwide to approximately 2.5 million per year -- one Defensive Gun Use every 13 seconds. Among 15.7% of gun defenders interviewed nationwide during The National Self Defense Survey, the defender believed that someone "almost certainly" would have died had the gun not been used for protection -- a life saved by a privately held gun about once every 1.3 minutes. (In another 14.2% cases, the defender believed someone "probably" would have died if the gun hadn't been used in defense.)
In 83.5% of these successful gun defenses, the attacker either threatened or used force first -- disproving the myth that having a gun available for defense wouldn't make any difference.
In 91.7% of these incidents the defensive use of a gun did not wound or kill the criminal attacker (and the gun defense wouldn't be called "newsworthy" by newspaper or TV news editors). In 64.2% of these gun-defense cases, the police learned of the defense, which means that the media could also find out and report on them if they chose to.
In 73.4% of these gun-defense incidents, the attacker was a stranger to the intended victim. (Defenses against a family member or intimate were rare -- well under 10%.) This disproves the myth that a gun kept for defense will most likely be used against a family member or someone you love.
In over half of these gun defense incidents, the defender was facing two or more attackers -- and three or more attackers in over a quarter of these cases. (No means of defense other than a firearm -- martial arts, pepper spray, or stun guns -- gives a potential victim a decent chance of getting away uninjured when facing multiple attackers.)
In 79.7% of these gun defenses, the defender used a concealable handgun. A quarter of the gun defenses occured in places away from the defender's home.

[CaptainHaplo]

As much as I am pro-gun - I have to question those numbers.

For one - its a "projection" - meaning its a guess. A true study collects the various locale's across the nation reporting numbers. Also - the idea that firearms are used more defensively that offensively I would really doubt. The only way this could be true is if the "victim" simply fires first. The projection does support that - but we still don't have real numbers.

However - lets look at overall VIOLENT crime - which includes gun crimes as well as other crimes. In the US for 2008 (the 2009 numbers not being available yet) - the violent crime numbers show roughly 454.5 people per 100,000 would be victims of such crimes. This means that the violent crime "rate" is 0.004545 for the US.

Source:
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2008/data/table_01.html (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2008/data/table_01.html)

Now - lets look at England for an example of how gun control has affected violent crime. England was noted in July of 2009 by the EU as more dangerous than South Africa when looking at its violent crime rate. The numbers? 2,034 per 100,000 people would be victims of violent crime. Thats nearly 5 times higher than in the US. When taking the EU as a group, that average comes down - but only to 688.49 per 100,000 - still higher than in the US.

Sources:

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/world-news/uk-is-europes-most-violent-crime-capital-european-commission_100212368.html (http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/world-news/uk-is-europes-most-violent-crime-capital-european-commission_100212368.html)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html)

So - regardless of how you look at it - the reality is that a society that allows its citizens firearms for personal defense - is safer.

[antikristuseke]

IIRC what isdefined asvilent crime in thosestatistics is different in the US and the UK, making comparing those statistics useless. Try using somestatistics that are sure to be compareable, like murderrate per capita and rapes percapita etc.

[CaptainHaplo]

Antikristuseke - yes violent crime is defined differently between the US and Europe. However - had you looked at the links I provided - you would have noted that the US numbers of violent crime contain the following:

Murder and Non-Negligent Manslaughter
Forcible Rape
Robbery
Aggrevated Assault
Property Crime
Burglary
Larceny/Theft
Motor Vehicle Theft

The EU numbers are only three types:
Burglary
Robbery
Homicide (Murder)

So to compare "apples to apples" like you want - we would simply REMOVE the appropriate numbers of crimes from the US (since they count many other crimes as "Violent" where the EU does not). As an example - the US counts rape - and those numbers are already accounted for - but the EU doesn't. If you really want to lower the number of US crimes in the equation - this would result in an even LOWER crime rate in the US vs the EU. Since the point is proven either way, there is no reason to do the extra math.

[Tribesman]

The EU numbers are only three types
No, that isn't what your links say at all.
When the Daily Mail ran with that OMG look at the crime levels story it was shown to be misleading. If you look at the figures they actually used as a source rather than the figures they sold as a story you will find that shouting at someone is included as a violent crime.
It is nonsense categories like that which gets Britain the highest "violent" crime figures while not having the highest levels of violent crime.
Did you not wonder how a country can be 4th 5th and 13th in "the only categories" of violent crime and still manage somehow to be 1st for violent crime?


As a helpful hint, if it is a story printed in the Daily Mail there is a very strong possibility, usually bordering on absolute certainty ....that the story as written isn't true.