Noob needs help with Training Mission 4

[Turkanator]

Hello All, this is my very first posting and I just received SH4 & UBoat Missions (download copies from Amazon.com) for Christmas this year. This is my first go at the World War II Sub simulators.


I'm having a hard time with the Convoy Attack Training Mission, I'm unable to get to the freighters without getting nailed by an Escort, because I end up right in front of an Escort, I take an Escort out and the other one kills me.


I'm not 100% sure how to plot an intercept course, I understand the idea of what I need to do but I'm not sure on how much lead to give them & the correct speed to intercept them at the spot.


I have downloaded several of the Tutorial Videos from the "Sub Skipper's Bag of Tricks--Techniques, tactics, tutorials, videos" without much help on this for me anyways.

Thank you,

[Task Force]

So what are you doing... what are your speed settings...
when evadeing a Distroyer. Try to go deep and be silent.

If you want to try to loose him.

1 go silent running. (press Z I think.)
2 Keep under 2 knots (100rpm.)
3 go deep below the thermal layer.
4 ocationaly change course...

Oah, and welcome to subsim.

[magic452]

Welcome to SubSim.

You start that mission in a terrible position. No skipper would put himself in this position.
As soon as the mission loads go to periscope depth ahead 2/3 (3 knots) and silent running. May be you can get down before the escort sees you. Also there are two planes that can see you so get down as fast as you can. If he sees you do as Task Force said. Don't go silent till you pass 40'. Mark on the nav map the position of the convoy and it's approximate course on your way down. Sonar will soon pick them up and you can plan your attack form there.

Attack the freighters and leave the escorts alone if you can.

Magic

[BigBANGtheory]

I completed that mission for the first time yesterday, personally I opted to take out two of the destroyers first but it felt like the wrong thing to do I believe the mission was trying to guide you into sneaking past them.

From my own experience I learnt:

1. Don't keep your scope up for too long.
2. Use the navigation map loads and get familiar with the tools.
3. Radar was useless after you make the initial detection.
4. Those destoyers and I assume the planes also can spot you at around six nautical miles.

Question for the vetts related to this mission...

1) Does using the sonar range/ping give away your position and presence to escorts? I assume merchants are not equiped with hydrophones and therefore oblivious to the ping.

2) When I play the mission the convoy changes course all over the place making it hard to position the sub for a decent firing angle. Is that because the convoy (and convoys in general) zig zag on purpose all the time, or is it because my sub has been detected and they are taking special precautions?

[Webster]

Question for the vetts related to this mission...

1) Does using the sonar range/ping give away your position and presence to escorts? I assume merchants are not equiped with hydrophones and therefore oblivious to the ping.

yes its like sending a flare up telling the escorts where you are. also merchants can sometimes hear the ping on the hull if you are nearby so they dont have to have sonar to hear your pinging.

2) When I play the mission the convoy changes course all over the place making it hard to position the sub for a decent firing angle. Is that because the convoy (and convoys in general) zig zag on purpose all the time, or is it because my sub has been detected and they are taking special precautions?

yes they will alter course at random by design but you can eliminate this being a problem by getting in close so they dont have time to change course, also setting torpedos to high speed could help.

you could have been detected by your engine sound or your periscope was seen, if you are detected the merchants usually scatter and the escorts make a turn heading to your position.

[Turkanator]

Thank you, the for quick replies!

For a Sub Driver like any noob does, I do the dumbest thing I charge straight ahead at Flank speed with the hopes of getting to the ambush spot (the default course spot) before they do. I try to stay at periscope depth, somehow I always end nose to nose with the Lead Destoryer, here is where it goes bad to worst. Because I have the download verisons of the game I don't have the manuals or I haven't found it yet, therefore I'm not up to speed of the combat manuvers.

I just can't see a Skipper in middle of a battle pulling out the NAV Chart & plotting for a Crazy Ivan ;).

Sidenote: Does anyone know if "Das Boot" is out on DVD, I haven't seen it since I was in middle school for a class, that's been about 20 years or so.

Thank you,

[Sailor Steve]

Das Boot has been available on DVD for more than a decade. You can get the Director's Cut, which at 3-1/2 hours is an hour longer than the theatrical release, and has better sound and very good subtitles, or you can go for the 'Original, Uncut Version', which is the miniseries without the episode dividers, and is just under 5 hours long. The sound and subtitles aren't as good in that one, but the extra footage makes it the one to own.
http://www.amazon.com/Das-Boot-Directors-J%C3%BCrgen-Prochnow/dp/0767802470/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1261933011&sr=1-1
http://www.amazon.com/Das-Boot-Original-Uncut-Version/dp/B0001XAOLQ/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1261933011&sr=1-2

Crazy Ivan
Browncoat, huh? :rock:

Oh, and WELCOME ABOARD!:sunny:

[Danny252]

2) When I play the mission the convoy changes course all over the place making it hard to position the sub for a decent firing angle. Is that because the convoy (and convoys in general) zig zag on purpose all the time, or is it because my sub has been detected and they are taking special precautions?

yes they will alter course at random by design but you can eliminate this being a problem by getting in close so they dont have time to change course, also setting torpedos to high speed could help.

you could have been detected by your engine sound or your periscope was seen, if you are detected the merchants usually scatter and the escorts make a turn heading to your position.

As far as I know, convoys should be relatively straight going unless you've been detected somehow. It's quite obvious if you've been detected - the merchants do 45* turns left and right constantly. Note that the lead destroyer tends to do a zigzag pattern anyway, hunting for subs like you!

[Turkanator]

Browncoat, huh? :rock:



:confused: Browncoat? :confused: I was thinking of Crazy Ivans from the Hunt For Red October.

[Sailor Steve]

:confused: Browncoat? :confused: I was thinking of Crazy Ivans from the Hunt For Red October.
:oops:

Sorry. I was thinking of the wacky 'Crazy Ivan' spaceship maneuver from the series Firefly. The survivors of the rebel army called themselves 'Browncoats'.

That's what I get for thinking, eh?:dead:

[Webster]

As far as I know, convoys should be relatively straight going unless you've been detected somehow. It's quite obvious if you've been detected - the merchants do 45* turns left and right constantly. Note that the lead destroyer tends to do a zigzag pattern anyway, hunting for subs like you!


they change course regularly just enough so sitting back at a distance and firing your torpedos with auto targetting will miss more often then hit. when manually targetting you wil get an overall average course from your calculations so you can generally get it close enough to get a lucky hit.

they dont zig zag or anything but if you watch closely with the exterior cam they will on occassion weave to port or to starboard a few degrees then divert back to the original course so their path is in a semi-straight line but they dont go straight all the time (sort of like i do after a few drinks lol)

[Turkanator]

Gentlemen,

I'm still a really lost here, this is NOT a Training Lesson because it assumes you know way more than you (at least for me). I'm going need someone spell it out for me, How to go about beating this Lesson...


Here is what I do...

1. I do a single radar sweep to get the range and bearing of the Convoy.


2. I take her down to Periscope depth and ahead 2/3. But as soon as I start to dive to escape from the Recon Zeros and I lost all of contacts before I can plot my course and get the firing position for the Ambush.


3. So I steam down the Default Course are 1/3 or 2/3 ahead but not knowing where the convoy is really headed I end up in the wrong position to attack or right under the Lead Destroyer's nose & I'm dead meat if I let my fishes fly if I have a shoot.


Thanks,

[TomcatMVD]

IIRC, you should be able to go surfaced at ahead flank to the default intercept position without much of a hassle from the DD's. It's quite easy to outsmart them.

[magic452]

Turkanator You are right is is not a very good training mission.
You start off in a very bad position and there is little you can do other than attack the escorts first. You have already been seen by the lead DD and he is after you. You are only 7.5 miles away in a very bad position. The key to a successful attack is to be in a good position and your not in one here. Get well ahead of the target and let them come to you.
Check out this link to get a idea of how to do it.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1020754&postcount=209

My advice is to just forget it and go to a war patrol in 43 or 44 when you have radar and find your own ships and you can set up a much better attack.
Hellcat would be a good one. Don't worry about completing the mission just go to the cost of Japan or the Philippines Luzon Strait and find some good targets. When you find a target just save and you can re-shoot the thing till you get the hang of it. That's what I did. You will learn far more this way and have a lot more fun.

Magic

[BigBANGtheory]

What sort of range do you need to be thinking about diving when approaching an escort or target then (my original estimate of 6.5nm seems a little off)?

[magic452]

Depends on the situation, clear skys and calm seas 8 to 10 miles, night or bad weather you can be closer.

The main point is you must be ahead of the target and not too far off it's plotted course. Plan an intercept point about 2000 yards off the course and then let them come to you. You can just set submerged at slow speed on silent running and maneuver into a good attack position.

You could not be in a worse position than what is in the so called Training mission. The only way to catch that convoy is to go submerged at 7 or so knots and you risk detection or just take on the DDs to start with. Not exactly convoy attack training.

If I was in that position I would turn West at flank speed submerged if necessary and try to set up in a better spot. Track the convoy with radar once you get 8 or 10 miles away and can surface. The convoy turns west anyway.

That is why I suggested a War Patrol. Such as Hellcat or even Lifeguard.
In Lifeguard you have 5 big fat, unescorted, CVs to practice on. See the thread on Lifeguard.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=159594

Magic

[jerm138]

Another option would be to use the mission editor and start yourself a little further away, giving you time to set up a good ambush. There is a great tutorial for using the editor here (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=6421019045&m=1001027846&r=5681008846#5681008846). You won't need the tutorial if all you want to do is change your starting position. That will be very simple... just start the editor, open the existing mission, drag your boat to another location, and save.

I tried this 'training' mission yesterday, and I just exited the mission when I saw the ridiculous starting position. Kind-of like the torpedo training where the target ship is super-close and closing fast, leaving you virtually no time to identify the ship and set up a shot manually.

The mission editor is great for adjusting the training missions, or creating your own.

[BigBANGtheory]

Thanks guys this thread has been very helpful. :up:

[VirtualVikingX]

Welcome to SubSim.

You start that mission in a terrible position. No skipper would put himself in this position.



What WOULD a good position be in this case? I am just wondering. Happy to hear yours or anybody elses thoughts on this matter.

[magic452]

You should be about 15 or so miles away, that will give you time to set up a good shoot by tracking the convoy on radar and plot it's course and get speed using the three minute rule.

Mark the position and start the clock, three minutes later mark again and measure the distance between marks. 1 knot for each 100 yards.
500 yards = 5 knots, 10,000 yards = 10 knots etc. I do this three times and that will give you a good course line as well.

Once you have this you can set up an intercept point and be there waiting.

Magic