How well liked are modding among UBI/developers?

[kanolsen]

I just wonder if UBI look upon the modders as a benefit or a nuisance?
I mean, just look what GWX did to SH3, still there are problems which was hardcoded so the modders couldn't fix it, just create workarounds.

Is there any connection/cooperation between the modding community and the developers? If it is, they should help make the game easier to modify.

Hope I made myself relatively clear!

Kanolsen

[karamazovnew]

Ubisoft is a big nuisance to us modders. If they hadn't come around with this SH5 thing, GWX4 wouldn't have been canceled. OMG you don't think that it was, just maybe, :o INTENTIONAL?!
Just kidding. However I would like to see some feedback from a few Ubi suits here.

[mookiemookie]

One of the things I remember most vividly about the last Subsim meetup was Dan telling Kpt Lehmann and the rest of the GWX boys that even the dev team had no idea how they did some of the things they did. I'd say that's a pretty nice compliment.

I think Ubi realizes that modding extends a title's life considerably. There's not a whole lot of games released in 2005 that still have the following that SH3 has. And I'm sure SH4 will still have a strong following well into the future thanks to the talents of folks like Ducimus and the RFB team.

[Sailor Steve]

^^:yep:^^

[GoldenRivet]

There's not a whole lot of games released in 2005 that still have the following that SH3 has.

exactly ZERO at my house :yep:

[mookiemookie]

exactly ZERO at my house :yep:

I still like to fire up Civ IV here and there. Hard to believe that came out the same year as SH3.

[Méo]

modding extends a title's life considerably.

Well said! :up:

Long life to SHV, to Ubisoft Romania and to the modding community!

[GoldenRivet]

I still like to fire up Civ IV here and there. Hard to believe that came out the same year as SH3.

never played it personally,

I do play Microsoft Flight Simulator X once in a very blue moon... it was an '06 title if i remember correctly.

nothing else on my hard drive is older than SH3.

I hope i can say the same for SH5 in 2013 :up:

[THE_MASK]

I know what your thinkin , am i a modder or a mod downloader . Well, to tell you the truth, i might be both . But being as this is a silent hunter game the most awsome sub game in the world, and would blow your socks clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question: am i a modder or a mod downloader. Well, what am i , punk?

[karamazovnew]

I know what your thinkin , am i a modder or a mod downloader . Well, to tell you the truth, i might be both . But being as this is a silent hunter game the most awsome sub game in the world, and would blow your socks clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question: am i a modder or a mod downloader. Well, what am i , punk?

Famous last words: "I'm a modder :D If the link in my sig doesn't convince you, you can shoot that magnum... biatch. :haha:"

[JScones]

If Ubisoft Romania (the developer) or Ubisoft (the publisher) thought modding was an issue, they'd be waving their License Agreement in the faces of every modder here, or doing the "Oleg"...

[Undefined]

I still like to fire up Civ IV here and there. Hard to believe that came out the same year as SH3.

And it's even more harder to belive that how moddable this game is. This game is built up for modding, Sid Meier kicks ass :rock:.

[Kaleun_Endrass]

This game is built up for modding, Sid Meier kicks ass :rock:.
Yeah, you can mod with XML and Phyton... Furthermore, there is a SDK available. Hope SH5 will have one too.

[TDK1044]

I think the Devs take a keen interest in the Subsim modding community. Some of the modding here has been excellent on both SHIII and SHV. Dave's 'Living Breathing Ocean' mod was truly exceptional work in my view....and I think the Devs would agree.

I think there is a mutual respect between the Devs and the Modders which is healthy. :)

[LtCmdrMaverick]

When you talk about modding here we all presume that ubisoft have already accepted that they will allow it with SH5.

Ubisoft has a new system in place for their games 'Uplay'. This is a system where the new games are linked to it and certain rewards are given with in the game. It also makes it possible for them to charge for extra downloadable content.

I have asked the question at ubisoft forums as to whether the SH5 game will be linked to their Uplay system. They have yet to answer.

The problem if it is linked to Uplay is as to whether they would want the Mod Community to Mod the game when they could actually produce extra content themselves and charge for it??.

Does anyone here have definite knowledge that they are going to continue to allow the game to be modded...bearing in mind a lot of people like me have used WAC, GWX, TMO and other useful mods that have been porduced by the Subsim community.

Maverick

[stabiz]

There's not a whole lot of games released in 2005 that still have the following that SH3 has.

There are some (rFactor), but its thanks to the same thing: modders.

[Uber Gruber]

It doesn't matter what UBI thinks, there is no way they could stop modders from modding and to attempt to do so would be akin to commercial suicide. Licenses don't mean much in the real world.

[kptn_kaiserhof]

you said it friend

[Shiplord]

stop modders from modding and to attempt to do so would be akin to commercial suicide.
It can not be the interest of a publisher, that the customers are tied for months or even years only to one game due to mods and not buy any other games from the publisher :D

[mookiemookie]

When you talk about modding here we all presume that ubisoft have already accepted that they will allow it with SH5.

Ubisoft has a new system in place for their games 'Uplay'. This is a system where the new games are linked to it and certain rewards are given with in the game. It also makes it possible for them to charge for extra downloadable content.

I have asked the question at ubisoft forums as to whether the SH5 game will be linked to their Uplay system. They have yet to answer.

The problem if it is linked to Uplay is as to whether they would want the Mod Community to Mod the game when they could actually produce extra content themselves and charge for it??.


You raise a good point. Speaking from a purely business standpoint, If I were Ubi and truly committed to the Silent Hunter series as an ongoing concern, I may be tempted to make future games less moddable and start putting out more DLC type things.

Think about the fan base for the Silent Hunter series: its a niche product. You're probably not going to expand the user base drastically going forward. You need to make the most money that you can from the fans you do have. And since many of us are diehards, you'd probably get a lot of people willing to pony up for a hypothetical DLC pack. Sure, you're going to have some people pass, but I bet you'd have a good number of people who buy in.

Pure economics: (number of new SH fans you could expand the user base by) x ($49.99 cost of a new game) VERSUS (number of existing fans willing to buy a DLC pack) x ($7.99 hypothetical DLC price). Which one is larger?

[Webster]

hey :timeout:

dont be giving them any ideas :O:

[rik007]

For UBI it is only favorable that a strong modding community exists. It doesnot cost there something and it will keep the game alive and attractive for customer's. Everybody now expects already that modders will take care of polishing the game so that makes a buying decision easier.

[Sailor Steve]

That's a good point. How many people are asking for help with SH3 right now because they've just purchased the game? And how many have come here asking how to purchase the game? Quite a few in both cases, and largely because the modders have kept it alive for almost five years now.

[mookiemookie]

hey :timeout:

dont be giving them any ideas :O:

I know, as I was typing that, I was thinking the exact same thing. Some Ubi suit is going to read that and when it comes to pass, I'll only have myself to blame.

[Navarre]

And how many have come here asking how to purchase the game? Quite a few in both cases, and largely because the modders have kept it alive for almost five years now.
I cannot say how it is elswhere in the world but here in Germany, Ubisoft makes no money with a game that has reached the bargain bin. All the budget versions of SH3 and SH4 are not published here by Ubisoft. If a game has been discounted in price down below 25€, it is going to be published here by smaller publishers, Rondomedia or ak tronic for example.

Ubisoft had in the last half year a decline in sales of 50%.
According to media reports, Ubisoft must come up with new marketing and sales ideas for the next few months to get out of this economic crisis.

[LtCmdrMaverick]

hey :timeout:

dont be giving them any ideas :O:

Would not wish to give them any ideas..they have thought up this little gem all by themselves. Take a look at their new site...http://Uplay.com

Uplay is NOT back compatible as other forum members on Ubisoft Titles have asked...BUT they are not going to set up this system and not have it utilised.

I would not be toooooooo concerned apart from the fact that they have not answered the question about Uplay in almost a week. Not a long time you may say, BUT they have been all over the Silent Hunter Forums recently and it would only take 1 minute to deny this was to take place.

Maverick

[THE_MASK]

UPlay , what the hell is that cr@p .

[Webster]

UPlay , what the hell is that cr@p .


i dont know but its from ubisoft, check it out http://uplay.us.ubi.com/agegate

[longam]

UPlay , what the hell is that cr@p .

Looks like button masher programs you can play online. <Shrug>

[mookiemookie]

Looks like more anti-piracy measures. I think the game companies are starting to wake up to the fact that draconian measures like SecureROM, (god forbid) Starforce and "phone home" authentications are not stopping anyone. They see the need to give the user a reason to actually purchase the game. If you can get them to log in to your servers and give them freebies for achievement points they earn and you keep track of on the game company side, you can get the user to buy in while you get to authenticate the software. You're putting the pirate at a disadvantage, not by crippling their game, but by having them miss out on extras and freebies.

I'm pretty okay with the idea.

[PL_Andrev]

You're putting the pirate at a disadvantage, not by crippling their game, but by having them miss out on extras and freebies.

Wrong way. Extras and freebies in not essential of game. A better way is to sell the 'demo' with only one type of uboat, one type of enemy warship, and one type of mechant. And if you have legal verison you can upload extras: additional units + updates + critical patches.

[Arclight]

UPlay , what the hell is that cr@p .
Testing Ubisoft's "Frequent Flyer" Rewards Program With Assassin's Creed II (http://kotaku.com/5406773/testing-ubisofts-frequent-flyer-rewards-program-with-assassins-creed-ii)

Basically you earn points by unlocking achievements (or by simply keep playing it, not sure). Those points can be spend on unlocks in that or other games.


I could spend my Uplay points through an interface in Assassin's Creed II on some unlocks for the game. But, according to what I found on the Uplay website today, I can also spend those points on unlocks for the upcoming games Splinter Cell Conviction and R.U.S.E. For Assassin's, the unlocks include a PS3 dashboard theme, a new outfit for Ezio Auditore, the game's hero, the ability to hold more throwing knives or, most notably, access to a family crypt.

[Jimbuna]

One of the things I remember most vividly about the last Subsim meetup was Dan telling Kpt Lehmann and the rest of the GWX boys that even the dev team had no idea how they did some of the things they did. I'd say that's a pretty nice compliment.

I think Ubi realizes that modding extends a title's life considerably. There's not a whole lot of games released in 2005 that still have the following that SH3 has. And I'm sure SH4 will still have a strong following well into the future thanks to the talents of folks like Ducimus and the RFB team.

If Ubisoft Romania (the developer) or Ubisoft (the publisher) thought modding was an issue, they'd be waving their License Agreement in the faces of every modder here, or doing the "Oleg"...


Precisely...and I have many joint/group photos that bear testimony to a good, positive, respectful and friendly relationship between both parties. http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/thumbsup.gif

[Exakt]

I think Ubi realizes that modding extends a title's life considerably. There's not a whole lot of games released in 2005 that still have the following that SH3 has. And I'm sure SH4 will still have a strong following well into the future thanks to the talents of folks like Ducimus and the RFB team.


Yes, Ubisoft is almost like Valve, supporting most mods, quite unofficially, but haven't heard of a C&D from Ubisoft, unlike EA or VU.

Here is an example of a game that got its life extended through modding, FreeSpace 2. That game was released in 1999 and there is still a strong modding community behind it and it is still going, even 9 years after release...

[LtCmdrMaverick]

Precisely...and I have many joint/group photos that bear testimony to a good, positive, respectful and friendly relationship between both parties. http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/thumbsup.gif

And I have seen them published on the various sites dedicated to the SH series.....

I don't doubt what has gone on before but I was one of those that was gobsmacked when Infinity Ward withdrew support for Modding and dedicated servers for Modern Warfare 2.....

I am a massive fan of this series and would not want to do Ubisoft a misservice without knowing the facts and am looking forward to this impending release but Uplay concerns me so...

any chance of the 'old boys network' getting an answer about the position with Uplay??? :up::up::up:

Maverick

[Arclight]

Uplay is of no concern, see post #32 if you don't know what it is.

It's just an attempt to create a community, like Bioware did with Dragon Age and it's online services. It also tries to keep people playing by offering rewards.

[Ducimus]

My personal opinion based on past experience, I think that to the dev's, modders, and modding is a double edged sword. Without going into details, on one hand, it encouraged sales, on another it discourages sales. I have heard everything from, "Id like to buy you a beer" to, "everytime i hear that, it drives another nail in the coffin of modablity".

In the end, i think the devs have sided with modding, in that the pros outweigh the cons. Many aspects of SH4 were designed to be more easily modded, and its my understanding that SH5 will stay with that trend, with many files being as easy, or even easier to mod then before. (just scuttlebutt, don't hold me to that) Furthermore, in the past , one of the devs, has made themselves available for questions via email, of which i am grateful for. It's not often you hear of a game developer fielding emails from modders, and even offering ideas of his own.

So overall, i think modders are fairly well liked in general, but maybe not so much if you start costing them sales revenue with newer titles.

[Armistead]

Modding keeps game alive and a community strong. If not for Mods these forum would have died a long time ago with the game, because of mod's they have large forums to come promote their upcoming series.

I'm sure their marketing has debated these issues out to the end and love modders.

[FIREWALL]

If Ubisoft Romania (the developer) or Ubisoft (the publisher) thought modding was an issue, they'd be waving their License Agreement in the faces of every modder here, or doing the "Oleg"...


I'll keep this simple because I''m tired and it's late.

You have a company jaeson and you could sue someone for stealing or just ripping off your work.

In the case of the GWX team who put their heart and soul and probably more in their work, are scattered all over the world.

They couldn't come up with the money to start a legal action no matter what disclaimer they add at the end of their mod.

That unfortunately is the real world.

Hell their stuff is already on a Pirate site.

As for Oleg, He can go pound sand. There's tons of mods and reworks for IL2. And he can't stop it.

To finish. My admiration for the GWX team is boundless. They made SH-3 what it should have been. And I don't want to leave out the other modders that took it to Greatness to.

SHV might be fantastic or just smoke and mirrors, only 2010 will tell.

But SH-3 GWX GOLD will always be the standard to compare all to.

[JScones]

Yes, you must be tired, as your post has absolutely no correlation with my quote whatsoever. Pls read it again and tell me where I have mentioned the rights of modders. You'll find it's the contrary. ;)

BTW, practically every SH3Cmdr user is breaking the License Agreement...but unless I find evidence of it being sold for profit, it's not an issue. There's even mod packs (for other games) that include JSGME without my permission, but again, provided their wares are free, it's not an issue.

[elanaiba]

My personal opinion based on past experience, I think that to the dev's, modders, and modding is a double edged sword. Without going into details, on one hand, it encouraged sales, on another it discourages sales. I have heard everything from, "Id like to buy you a beer" to, "everytime i hear that, it drives another nail in the coffin of modablity".


To clarify what Ducimus says above - and you guys know I'm not here in official form - for MY part I think we owe the modders a lot. I will always push for moddability, while our titles should be groundbreaking in technology/features that no modders could achieve in general.

But everytime people say things like "with SH3/GWX I have no reason to buy SHIV" and maybe "screw ubi" there's a danger that somebody around here will say OMG stop mods. It happened. And the thing is, people mostly mean "I don't really like US submarines so I stick with the uboats in sh3".

[karamazovnew]

But everytime people say things like "with SH3/GWX I have no reason to buy SHIV" and maybe "screw ubi" there's a danger that somebody around here will say OMG stop mods. It happened. And the thing is, people mostly mean "I don't really like US submarines so I stick with the uboats in sh3".

Not all players use mods, as both SH3 and SH4 (patched) are perfectly enjoyable games. And not all players that use mods actually understand what those mods do. So yeah, some will say "screw ubi" from ignorance, not because of flag-waving. It takes time to create mods, a lot of time, mainly because the game, although moddable, lacks tools or tutorials. There are also hard coded limits that make you rethink, give up, start over, adapt, cut features and so on. Where would we have been without the S3D Editor?

Yeah, it took 3-4 years of continuous modding to get SH3 where it is now. By that time, both SH4 and UBM were out. It took 3 years to make SH4 what it is now and less than 2 years to turn UBM into something that it shouldn't have been (SH3+GWX+SH4graphics). Patience and understanding is required.

Mods are made to make the game harder and more realistic. Some of them, like late war GWX and early war TMO are so hard that they'd completely confuse any starting player and make him delete the game. Why on earth would you devs create an impossible game? What did some players expect of SH4? Germans again but HARDER than GWX? SH4 is completely different on many aspects, proof that you devs are not blind or stupid. My only problem with SH4 was the unusable Notepad in the german interface (took me 3 months to change that). It's a shame that a few players don't think about the big picture. As I said, patience is required. We're a few months before SH5 comes out, a game which I have no doubt will blow everyone away. In the meantime, I suggest all players try these:

SH3 vanilla: fun but shows it's age
SH3 with NYGM: fun
SH3 with GWX: hard
SH4 vanilla, US side: fun
SH4 with RFB: hard, on par with GWX
SH4 with TMO: very very hard
SH4 UBM, vanilla: fun but only with Automatic targeting. :O:
SH4 UBM with OM: hard, on par with GWX in almost all aspects.

All are at 100% quality and saying that one is better than another would be idiotic. Players that say they'll stick to SH3 with GWX and OLC, now have a perfect incentive to switch to SH4 (OMEGU).

But I guess this will be a good lesson for the Ubi suits. Modding, left by itself and unaided, takes too long and can interfere with future titles. You guys really had to push the limits this time, but it seems you'll deliver :up:. Might I also have another suggestion. Machinima can be a very very powerful sales tool. I strongly suggest creating some support (tools) for easy and realistic filming, interface hiding and behavior scripting to allow more films like this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouic-x7leBw. It made me play the US and forget about how much I hated the US boats :haha:

[FIREWALL]

Yes, you must be tired, as your post has absolutely no correlation with my quote whatsoever. Pls read it again and tell me where I have mentioned the rights of modders. You'll find it's the contrary. ;)

BTW, practically every SH3Cmdr user is breaking the License Agreement...but unless I find evidence of it being sold for profit, it's not an issue. There's even mod packs (for other games) that include JSGME without my permission, but again, provided their wares are free, it's not an issue.

I was tired. Nothing was aimed at you. :DL

I guess the point I was trying to make is that all the copyright and liense agreements are useless against a theif that wants to steal your stuff, package it a little differently and sell it on the internet.

Physicaly catching him to serve a summons is near impossible.

GWx team as an example. Earlier in their beginnings their work was stolen and used in an add-on for SH3, sold on the internet and at all major stores.

Gamestop, BestBuy, Fryes elec. to name a few and are still to this day on the shelves of two.

To add salt to the wound they (the thiefs) had the approval of Ubisoft.

So in closeing the point I was trying to make is nobobys stuff is safe on the wide open internet. And that is saddening. :nope:

I also want to thank you for the tools you have gave so genoursly to us at SubSim. :salute:

[FIREWALL]

As for SH4UBM I don't care for it and use the cd for a drink coaster. :DL

BUT.... I admire and applaud all the hard work that the modders big and small have done for it. :salute:

[Sailor Steve]

I personally play SH4UBM regularly, with the latest OM and OMEGU. I treasure my disc and take very good care of it.

@ Karamazovnew: That short film is marvelous. I've many times praised the water in SH4, saying that it looks like model ships superimposed on real water; but that black-and-white sequence beginning at 4:11 looks like real wartime footage. Amazing!

I disagree with some of your summations, especially that GWX is harder than NYGM, but that's personal taste at its finest. I'm about to start playing with WAC, based solely on the screenshots I've seen posted.

To the subject: Yes, modders have taken both games to new heights (or should that be depths?), but they know and have freely admitted that without the developers making the games to mod they would be nowhere.

As for one mod "making SH3 what it should have been"? I've seen people say that before, and while I agree there has been great improvement, I disgree with that statement because there still could be so much more.

Here's to you, Dan, and to your team and to SH5!:salute:

And all that praise won't stop me from grumbling about anything I don't like. So there!:p2:

[Carotio]

To clarify what Ducimus says above - and you guys know I'm not here in official form - for MY part I think we owe the modders a lot. I will always push for moddability, while our titles should be groundbreaking in technology/features that no modders could achieve in general.

But everytime people say things like "with SH3/GWX I have no reason to buy SHIV" and maybe "screw ubi" there's a danger that somebody around here will say OMG stop mods. It happened. And the thing is, people mostly mean "I don't really like US submarines so I stick with the uboats in sh3".

Best comment yet for a long time, both parts. :yeah:

[PL_Andrev]

But everytime people say things like "with SH3/GWX I have no reason to buy SHIV" and maybe "screw ubi" there's a danger that somebody around here will say OMG stop mods. It happened. And the thing is, people mostly mean "I don't really like US submarines so I stick with the uboats in sh3".

Sorry elainba, is UBI blind? Who is to blame that the players do not like SH4? Players?
Somebody in UBI ask, WHY do the people say things like "with SH3/GWX I have no reason to buy SHIV"???

1) People like play uboats.
2) SH4 1.5 is still heavy bugged (but patch 1.5 is not for free, right?)
3) People like play multiplayer. But see point 1.
4) Almost all my friends have "unknown network error" when try to play by UBI (all legal version of SH4 + UBM + no mods). 'Unsunkable submarine when destroyed on surface' bug kills every multigame on SH4. Thanks - I returned to SH3.
5) ADV mode. Good idea. But why only host can play on surface ships? No manual detection of sub kills this great idea known in DC. Of course - who is guilty? Players!
6) To play uboats on Atlantic we need mods. Sorry - Pacyfic is booring, is too big (for me).
7) No other submarines control as modders want (Italian, japanese, soviet) or hard to add. These same about SH5, right?
8) No surface ships control as modders want - these same about SH5, right?

At points 7/8 I think about single warpatrol or single player mission. After experience with OP.MONSUN I know that we don't need campaign to play with these units. We need only background.
Did UBI give it to us in SH4? Not - in SH5 "not" too.

And modability.
Mods are MAIN power of SH3/SH4. If you kill it, SH5 will be as other similar games (Battlestations, PT-Boats) - closed. Close format kills very fast these good, high-potential games. Battlestation Midway (as first my view) was perfect DC2 game - "control whatever you want". No crazy requirements, perfect internat stability, two sides. But... not moddable, without game editor, without german units.
I did no buy next Battlestation Pacyfic. I said 'thank you' to Eidos.

But - who is guilty?
Players, of course...
:damn:

Question: Is something new is SH5 what the players want? Wolfpacks? Warships control? Full adversarial mode? Control of axis and allies units to amazing multiplayer matches?
Answer: Of course! First person view and new amazing graphics.
Question: But... something new... maybe... uboats on Atlantic during IIWW???
Answer: Yes!
Question: Oh... thanks God! Thank you! I love it!

[Méo]

I think I'll start a How well liked is this Silent Hunter 5 forum among UBI/developers thread...

[Dowly]

Modders are UBI's safetynet. If their game fails, the modders will catch it and do their thing.

Tho, looking at SHIV, it looks like Dan & co. are determined to flip the finger at the modders and yell "See, we dont need your help!". :O:

[Jimbuna]

I'd like to think your right.....Ubi will always be the determining factor as to whether Dan and co have sufficient time to create a polished/finished article.

[Nisgeis]

Tho, looking at SHIV, it looks like Dan & co. are determined to flip the finger at the modders and yell "See, we dont need your help!". :O:

What does that mean exactly?

[JU_88]

SH Mods have all been a really nice bonus to improve the lastability of the series.
Its a shame when a few people seem to forget just who made it all possible in the first place..... :doh:

IMHO Anyone who declares praise for 'SH Mod team X' while slagging off UBI-is pretty retar....(ahem) short sighted.

[Jimbuna]

If it wasn't for Dan and co there wouldn't have been anything to mod/work on http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/pirate.gif

[skwasjer]

Ubi does appreciate the work of modders. They've showcased this more than once (what comes to mind is the free copy of UBM to a group of top SH4 modders, the inclusion of Leo's ROW in UBM, etc.).

I do believe they also would appreciate it if modders 'advertise' for the newest installment of the franchise, something that did not happen enough with SH4 imo. I know the reasons, and you can't ignore the fact that a group of people will always stick to the 'old' version (it happens with every game out there), but it does help the franchise if top modders (or modgroups) accept the 'new' version and go with it, just to get more people to play it and bring in more cash for future versions or expansions.

[THE_MASK]

Ubi does appreciate the work of modders. They've showcased this more than once (what comes to mind is the free copy of UBM to a group of top SH4 modders, the inclusion of Leo's ROW in UBM, etc.).

I do believe they also would appreciate it if modders 'advertise' for the newest installment of the franchise, something that did not happen enough with SH4 imo. I know the reasons, and you can't ignore the fact that a group of people will always stick to the 'old' version (it happens with every game out there), but it does help the franchise if top modders (or modgroups) accept the 'new' version and go with it, just to get more people to play it and bring in more cash for future versions or expansions.

And one not so top modder LOL .

[gimpy117]

so are there actually ubisoft devs that are members of the forum?

[urfisch]

i love this sh3-community!

:salute:

hey guys and girls...i love you all, really.

:yep:

this thread makes me recognize, i never had so much fun with a game and the people who play it. and i am gaming since end of the 80s, and modding since 1995. ubi would be stupid not letting the people mod the game. even they never released a development kit (as promised in 2005!), the people round here made a surprising game out of it. when testing my mods with vanilla version (cause of loading time) the difference is extraordinary.

:yeah:

may god bless you all and give us all the energy we need, to mod sh5 to a never seen stage of submarine simulation!!!

[Jimbuna]

so are there actually ubisoft devs that are members of the forum?

Yes, there are a few.

[LukeFF]

so are there actually ubisoft devs that are members of the forum?

elanaiba, aka Dan Dimitrescu

[THE_MASK]

Mihai Maerean

[Faamecanic]

That's a good point. How many people are asking for help with SH3 right now because they've just purchased the game? And how many have come here asking how to purchase the game? Quite a few in both cases, and largely because the modders have kept it alive for almost five years now.

Yep....very true. I just got a buddy of mine from another simulator to try sh3 with GWX.... he LOVES it.

What does that tell you when a game that is from 2005 can still attract new players.

Imagine what it could be though if Ubi had only released the SDK!

[Faamecanic]

I'd like to think your right.....Ubi will always be the determining factor as to whether Dan and co have sufficient time to create a polished/finished article.

And so far (as sh3 and 4 has shown) Dan and Co. NEVER have eonugh time. But I wont get into that here.

I LOVE meh GWX...but I will buy SH5. Its my hope it will at least be bug free from MAJOR bugs. It shouldnt be up to modders to fix major bugs (ie Type XXI batteries being messed up in the final sh3 or the bad weather that lasts for months.)

[JScones]

SH Mods have all been a really nice bonus to improve the lastability of the series.
Its a shame when a few people seem to forget just who made it all possible in the first place..... :doh:

IMHO Anyone who declares praise for 'SH Mod team X' while slagging off UBI-is pretty retar....(ahem) short sighted.
Why? Developers are paid to do a job, modders are not. I'm more than happy to criticise professionals who don't correctly or adequately do what they are paid to do. If you pay a plumber to install a toilet and he doesn't do it right, would you complain, or would you thank him for making it possible for you to mod the job yourself? Conversely, how would you react if the plumber was a friend doing it pro bono? I bet you'd be more sympathetic.

Don't be fooled - the SH series will continue as long as Ubi sees a profit in it. They won't pull the plug just because someone says they suck...heck, if that was the case Ubi would have pulled up stumps years ago, or at least after SH2. Bottom line: actions (as in number of sales as in profit) speak louder than words.

I'm not disagreeing that Ubi should be recognised for giving us something to mod, but to praise or compare them in the same way as modders is absurd, IMHO. It's apples v oranges. Ironically, I've always found it interesting that faults in SH3 were usually defended vehemently by many, yet if a mod was released with just the tiniest bug, people would jump like piranhas.

Anyway, my prediction for the future - buy an Xbox.

Ubi does appreciate the work of modders. They've showcased this more than once (what comes to mind is the free copy of UBM to a group of top SH4 modders, the inclusion of Leo's ROW in UBM, etc.).
I'm still waiting for my copy. :dead:

[Méo]

If you pay a plumber to install a toilet and he doesn't do it right, would you complain, or would you thank him for making it possible for you to mod the job yourself?

That would be a good example only if UBI was making a game just for yourself...

[JScones]

Fine. If you purchase a good and...

Oh, if I have to spell it out, then never mind... :roll:

[Sgtmonkeynads]

Yeh, thats about how I feal also. When they sat down with Sh4 as a finnished product and played it for the first time, did NO ONE realise the crews eyes were messed up? That made the game unbearable for me and I put it away for a while, untill I found the eye patch.
I am still disapointed though, I thought it was a mod to make they guys have eye patches. :arrgh!: aargh!

But.. they did give modders the canvas unto which they paint their masterpieces. Imagine GWX3 with no sh3, impossible. Or, OM without SH4.

Plus, how many copies of the games would they still be selling, without modders to fix issues. Read some old reviews of sh4 after people noticed bugs and breakers, then tell me why the company did not fix them. I am under the impression that modders did, so sorry if I'm wrong. No one will buy a broken game, but people will buy one that has a great community of modders willing to fix the problems.

[JScones]

Good point.

How many people plan on buying SH5 based primarily on the strength of its modding potential and modder support? Or, to put it the other way, how many people have shyed away from buying a game because of a lack of a strong modding community? I bet the answer is "lots".

I've certainly passed on games where I haven't seen strong user-based support. And I'm certainly no longer playing games that didn't have strong user-based support. Panzer Elite and SH3 are the longest lasting games I've ever played, both due to modder support years after the developers closed up shop and moved to the next game.

[gimpy117]

elanaiba, aka Dan Dimitrescu

huh no kidding
i always suspected but never knew for sure

[Sailor Steve]

It's been mentioned a bunch of times. I even made a joke about my not knowing it when I wrote my report on the 2008 Houston meeting.

[martes86]

I'm more than happy to criticise professionals who don't correctly or adequately do what they are paid to do.

That depends a lot on the field and nature of the proffessional... sure, sometimes, well, you can just plainly blame them (like a plummer, who works alone), but... in the case of a sim in the SH saga, who'd you blame. If we're talking bug by bug, sure, blame direcly the programmers. After all, the problem usually comes coded. But if we see it overall, with a little bit of context into it, we see that CEO's decisions (like a decision to hit the shelves sooner or spend less money), influence those of Project Managers, which in turn affect Lead Designers and Lead Programmers, which in turn affect Senior Programmers, and then Standard Programmers and all the Junior personnel. It's all a big chain, so it's definitely a mistake to put it all on one man, or to put it on the people fighting in the trenches which are on our side.

And if it's constructive, well, nobody is offended. But not all is constructive.

Cheers

[JScones]

That depends a lot on the field and nature of the proffessional... sure, sometimes, well, you can just plainly blame them (like a plummer, who works alone), but... in the case of a sim in the SH saga, who'd you blame.
Well, you've completely missed my point, but anyway...in this case you level the criticism to the entity that is responsible for releasing the game. The entity is the collection of professionals that are being paid to produce the product that you have paid for, be it "Ford", "Telecom", "Ubisoft" whatever.

Remember, a professional is not necessarily an individual, it's an entity, be it a sole trader or a multinational corporation with 100's of employees. I didn't think it necessary to provide an array of examples, but now I see perhaps I should have.

To that end, I don't think I have ever seen criticism levelled directly to an individual SH developer on this forum; certainly it would not be acceptable. However, posts criticising Ubisoft, Ubisoft developers, Ubisoft marketing etc are a dime a dozen.

Anyway, enough of straying from my point and argument.

I am curious though - how do you come up with a comment like "...to put it on the people fighting in the trenches which are on our side"? Who's on "our side"? The people making a profit off you buying their product? The individuals who are being paid a salary to make the product? No-one is on "our side". They have their own company policies, procedures and guidelines that must be followed. No matter how friendly individuals may seem, or how empathetic they may be, at the end of the day, will they lose their job for you by fighting too hard for a feature "we" want? No, they are acting in both their best, and their employer's best interests...not "ours". That's how people stay employed.

[jerm138]

I can't imagine developers NOT liking the modding community. And obviously, the modders need something to start with... it's a symbiont relationship.

As mentioned before, mods keep the interest up. Granted, UBI probably won't make much money off of anyone buying SH3 and SH4 these days (I think I paid $15 total for both) but the mods keep people around to buy the next version. If people lose interest, UBI loses the return business, which is probably significant in a niche like this.

I wonder how many people would maintain interest in a vanilla version (no mods whatsoever) for several years between titles. This is one of the big reasons I lost interest in flight simming... FSX was so bad that the best modders just stuck with the previous version, and it got boring.

And it's one of the biggest reasons they should (and I assume WILL) continue to support mods.

[JU_88]

Why? Developers are paid to do a job, modders are not. I'm more than happy to criticise professionals who don't correctly or adequately do what they are paid to do.

Sure, but Is it really justifiable for us to call Sh3 & 4 inadequate?
Consider how long most of us here have spent playing unmodded SH3 & 4, then on top of that - played them even longer because we were ABLE to mod them, thanks to a reasonably 'open file structure'.

As for your example;
A toilet either works flawlessly - or is doesnt, but we are talking about software here.
In a Simulator there are about a trazillion different variables needed to accuratly portray a slice of reality, but due to human and technological limitations -only a small portion of it can be represented in a $50 video game.
To make things worse, every fanatic who takes it seriously, just so happens to be a bloody expert on what should or shouldnt go in to that small portion (according to the gospel of himself.)

If there are things that you 'dislike' like about something you purchase, it might be the manufacturer who let you down - or it just might be that your own personal expectations were to high.

Hell, you could give Ubi Romania a ten year deadline and 1000% more budget to create an SH game, but as sure as I got a hole in my ass -there would still be unsatistfied customers and those who will want to mod/change it.

[stabiz]

Good point.

How many people plan on buying SH5 based primarily on the strength of its modding potential and modder support? Or, to put it the other way, how many people have shyed away from buying a game because of a lack of a strong modding community? I bet the answer is "lots".


Me for one. I recently passed on PT Boats for this reason.

[JScones]

So JU, you're saying that you are happy to accept a buggy product, with no complaints? And that Ubisoft should be complimented for releasing said buggy product? If so, then tell me, would you still be playing SH3 or SH4--modded or not--if no patches were released to fix all the broken features that existed upon release? Or would many of the bugs--yes, let's call them what they were, bugs--be considered serious game breakers, if not immediately then longer term?

I'd like to think that it was the community complaining to Ubisoft that gave rise to patches being released that has allowed you, me and everyone else to continue enjoying SH3 and SH4 for as long as we all have, with the supermods that have been built to take advantage of those patches. And I'm thankful for it. I'm really glad these people weren't following your lead and blowing kisses up the a**es of Ubisoft - we might still be playing SH3 v1.0 and SH4 v1.0. Well, actually, I doubt we would be... ;)

And I'm certainly glad that people have raised here, in numbers, criticism about save game problems and many other inherent problems in SH3 and SH4 that should be, nay MUST be, fixed in SH5. These aren't personal "I really want this feature" requests as you are suggesting, they're concerns about basic functionality that should work flawlessly in any game. No excuses I'm afraid. No "but the dev's my mate" subjectivity that's starting to creep in here. It's expected functionality that I, as a consumer, am paying good bucks for.

If you think that's worth rewarding, then you might want to reconsider who the "retar...(ahem) short sighted" people are, because all that behaviour does is give Ubisoft a license to repeat their behaviour with SH5, SH6, SH7, SH8 etc etc...

For anyone else struggling to see beyond the words "professional", "plumber" and "toilet", that was my point.

So I guess you're right JU, in the end we just both have different personal expectations.

[JU_88]

@ Scones, naturally we proabably do have different expectations,

The way I see it - most PC games are a tad buggy on release and have to be patched later, SH3 & 4 is no different.
I play red Alert 3 which is on patch 1.12... Yes twelve! but that is an RTS and most of the fixes are for balance issues and exploits.

If I complain about SH3 & 4, then Im gonna complain about every other PC game I purchase.
BTW If you think the SH series is bad bugwise - You should check out ArmA. :haha:

The thing is this, I accept bugs are more likely frequent games like Arma and SH, where you have a free/dynamic/sandbox type enviroment. because its not possible to test every possibility in the space of a few months.

FPS Games like Call of Duty or Driving games tend to be more solid (since they are very linier), so I expect to encounter fewer bugs in those titles as they are much easier to QA.

Going aback to SH3 & 4, I dont really remember expericening any seriously game breaking bugs - just minor anoyances . Maybe I got lucky? Or maybe my tolerence levels are higher than some. :hmmm:
Who knows....

But yeah bugs & patches are apart of PC gaming, You either accept it to a degree -or buy an Xbox I guess.

[Arclight]

Nowadays bugs and patches are as much a problem for PS and XBOX as they are for PC. ;)

[JU_88]

Nowadays bugs and patches are as much a problem for PS and XBOX as they are for PC. ;)

As games become ever more complicated, it is no surprise.
Plus with rising development costs, the situation will probably get worse - not better.
but so long as developers continue to patch - i dont see the problem.
Most software gets fixes and updates anyway, thats just the nature of the beast.

[Arclight]

As games become ever more complicated, it is no surprise.
Plus with rising development costs, the situation will probably get worse - not better.
but so long as developers continue to patch - i dont see the problem.
Most software gets fixes and updates anyway, thats just the nature of the beast.
I think that's exactly the reason why console games now need patches as well; development is becoming ever more expensive and complex, making time more and more precious.

On the plus side, publishers/developers seem to have noticed the trend; a lot of titles get delayed for some extra polish.



And indeed, as long as the support is there, I have no problem with patching. :up:

[JScones]

You either accept it to a degree -or buy an Xbox I guess.
I actually did that, just over a year ago. Instantly became addicted to Fable II, COD4:MW and COD:WAW. Since then I've bought about 12 XBOX games and 0 PC games; SH5 will be the first PC game I've bought since buying an XBOX.

It's now that if I see a game I like, and it exists on both PC and XBOX, I'll take the XBOX version every time. It's just (for me) the less hassle option, what with patches being automatically applied, no need to worry about system specs, Vista UAC, and so on.

Multiplayer seems much more robust (at least in the games I've played), with none of the connectivity issues that seem to plague some PC games. Of course, I suck at MP (by the time I've seen someone to shoot they've already blasted me into submission), but still, it's fun...

[karamazovnew]

Vista UAC

Just open the Local Security Policy and rename the admin account and enable it. If you then delete your current account and only use the admin one, you'll never run into trouble again. That's because the admin account is the only real admin account. The rest of the administrator group is just for show. I think the term is "elevated status" but... I'm not an IT guy so I can't go into any details.

I usually borrow an XBOX from a friend when there's a new game not available for PC (Assassin's Creed 2 for ex). However, I hate the gamepad. I always mistake the trigger for the button LB, LT, RB, RT, LS, RS :doh:

[WarlordATF]

I'll buy Sh5, but i will wait a few weeks to see what issues are discovered and what the modders think can be fixed. It looks pretty decent from what i have seen but i really doubt it will replace SH4 on my HD because i prefer the US Fleetboats. That said, I'll buy it just to support the Silent Hunter series so that the suits realize this franchise has a future and hopefully we will see another pacific title in the series.

As to modding, IMO they would be foolish to stop modding. I used to love Falcon 4.0, until Lead Pursuit released Allied Force and tried to stop the community from modding it. LP was a modding group who got the support to release their modded version as an actual product, but then they didn't want anyone messing with their "Masterpiece" without their approval. Alot of fans felt this was rather hypocritical and it ended up costing them some sales. I went back to original F4 for awhile and then i got bored and pretty much stop playing it altogether.

I have owned all the Silent Hunter games and mods have been a major part of my enjoyment of the series. If modding was stopped, i'd stick with the older titles until something else interested me and i would not buy any future titles. Yes i can hold a major grudge, I have only bought used EA games since they killed Motorcity online (a racing MMO) less than a year after its release. I know i am one of the few who would react like this, but why would i continue to help fund any company who mistreated its consumers?

I don't expect everything to be perfect, patches and expansions are a fact of life in PC gaming. However releasing a bugged product and preventing the fans from fixing it is unforgivable IMO. I am glad i came into SH4 a little late, because the whole buy the expansion or no version 1.5 for you would have probably soured me on ubisoft, but i'll give them the chance to show that they have learned from the past before i'll pass judgement.

[Sgtmonkeynads]

However releasing a bugged product and preventing the fans from fixing it is unforgivable IMO. .

Especially when the companies state they have no desire to fix or patch the product until a latter date that never comes.

OH... I forgot to add, when the time does come, it is a "DLC" or expansion pack that is just a buggy or broken.