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Skybird
12-11-09, 09:16 AM
I am a quite active reader, usually having 3-5 books in the work simultaneously, and this year I had a number of books that all dealt with different aspects of one and the same question, although I did not plan the books to be like that and did not become aware of their similar object of interest: from climate change over shortening resources and intoxication of the environment to financial collapses and economies heading for the centre of the spiral in their stellar debts levels – with our societies and civilisation being that obvious in danger, why is it that we still re-fuse to react with the obviously strongly recommended determination and unity, although doing so would be of vital interest for us, and decisive action would be needed to be agreed upon by all. Or in other words: why is it that we so stubbornly refuse to draw consequences from the past although we could perceive the patterns from past cycles so clearly, if only we look close enough? Why do we not learn in the face of so much opportunity to learn?

I came across several good books, which originally I seemed to have picked by random chance and random opportunity, but now see falling together into just one whole “picture”. I got some new ones, and also re-read two older ones I already had, with a slightly different, more power-political focus. And I would like to nail some summaries and thesis to the gate, since maybe it might be of interest for some. There has been a lot of hacking and slicing over capitalism and competing market philosophies, free thought and opinion, global warming, politics and economic interest, logic and ratio in this forum. So let me add just this contribution to these kinds of debates, and think about it for a moment. I will quote just brief notes about typical key factors for the historic fall of past societies, reasons for why we do not act in the face of threatening amounts of problems, and in how far this has to do with concepts and terms like rational decision-making, egoism and altruism.

I used to describe myself as a realist, and as a rational man. While the first description can support itself, I realised that with the latter I was lacking precision if leaving it to just that label alone, and that without explicitly referring to implications I silently take as natural I nevertheless always attach several supple-menting qualities to it that gives the term “being rational” (or “being reasonable”) it’s final meaning – by adding orientation to it. One thing I thought a lot about in the past weeks and months, was the need to understand that being rational and reasonable, can lead to totally different decisions and behaviour of ours, sometimes for our better, sometimes for our worse. We can work for our survival reasonably and rationally. Unfortunately we can also decide our suicide – for perfectly reasonable and rational and logical arguments that we fully understand. And this is a dilemma, because it seems to cause a major cul-tural deadlock in our global society that prevents the problems from being accepted and properly approached for solving them while there still is (or was?) time.

I do not claim credits for the following material, nor do I claim that the following ideas and thoughts are originally mine, or in any way caused by my mind. Even where I do not explicitly refer to works or authors, you better assume that somebody else has had these thoughts before me already, and that I just summarise it. It would be a deeply discouraging implication for the potential of the human race to assume for even just a second that I really could have been the first to have had these ideas – I was not, and for the most I know that by authors’ names and book titles for sure. But for the sake of more comfortable work and making this text more accessible, I will restrain myself from detailed quoting and cross reference to existing knowledge bases and works, it also increases the workload for me without really adding a big positive effect: after all, this is no paper that must qualify according to formal academic standards. So I throw it all together and hope I succeed in turning it into one overall argument and depiction.

Just keep in mind that I do not claim originality for the thoughts I summarise, and claim no personal credit for them.

Let’s begin with some general statements which may serve as kind of a guiding preamble for the rest where we go a bit deeper into the details.

First some general statements.

1. All human behaviour is egoistical in that even any rational decision-making and weighing of options depends on standards seen as valid by the individual – even where assessing if own standards shall bow to standards (or demands) of others.

2. Rational behaviour tends to be destructive in the long run, since it is based on egoistical mo-tives in the meaning of point 1.), and beyond, it favours the strong at the cost of the weaker. An economy basing on egoism as it’s prime motivation aims at preventing competition, dis-connects itself from it’s service for the community, and ultimately destroys both the com-munity and itself – doing so rationally, and as a result of rational, reasonable decision-making.

3. Rationality therefore needs complementation by altruism to evade destructive effects caused by itself, and ultimately to evade rational suicide. The weighing of altruism versus egoism again includes an egoistic element (see 1.) ), as long as altruism is no represented in a “truly self-less love” for the interest of the other, which “agape” in the understanding of Christian tradition comes the closest to. We want to differ between general altruism and agape, there-fore.

Next, some more specific statements.

4.) Any community, locally or globally, can only survive if it consumes no more resources than can be replaced naturally by the ecosphere the community lives in. The smaller the resource basis of a community, by own fault or as an environmental reality the community was confronted with from it’s beginning on, the worse it’s chance for long-term survival.

5.) A population growth/size beyond a level were sustainable management of natural resources is possible, marks the beginning of a downward spiral that ultimately must end in total collapse, if not being stopped by a decline in population size below the level of then-actual sustainable re-sources management again, which will be a lower level than before, then. If the loss and damage has become too great meanwhile, the environment from some point on cannot recover or cannot replace enough resources as would be needed to supply the population size currently in place, and the temporary losses turn into permanent losses.

6.) Permanent losses minimise future survival chances for later generations, by marking options that are no longer there since they have been consumed. All consummation of resources that do not get replaced by nature within the timeframe relevant for human evolution, like metal ores, oil, gas, are permanent losses, and will never be available again to the present or future mankind. There are resource types that - if consumed - are either sustainable or that are permanently lost from the very beginning on if consumed. Too excessive consummation of sustainable resources turns them into permanently lost resources.

We live in interesting times, to say the least.

The planet is crowded with humans like never before. The level of development and living conditions of 15% of the global population – the “happy few” in the industrialised first world, mainly the West – strictly contrasts to those that the lower 70 or 80% of the global population have to deal with, with mil-lions needlessly dying every year from starvation, disease and proxy-wars fought over precious natural resources. The reaction to misery and suffering often is either apathy, or political and religious fanati-cism, fuelling the conflicts of the present and near future. Given resources in food, like fishing grounds and fertile ground for agricultural activity, are disappearing, are eroding or have been overused, we live in a time when we realise that the practical carrying capacity of the planet maybe is much, much lower than the idealistically assumed, most ideal, theoretical carrying capacity. Global demand already seems to be beyond what the natural ecosystem can support and sustain. We have just started to understand that every intensifying of food production also intensifies the contamination of the environment, the stress put on natural resources like natural sweet water reservoirs, functioning ecosystems with their incredibly sensitive, complex balances, and the need to use pesticides and fertilizers. And often the quality of the food is the more inferior the more effort is put into intensifying the production process and lowering the end prices for the Western consumer at the same time. The level of planetary garbage mounting and in-toxication of the environment, from aerial emissions over nano-particles and chemical agents in water, ground, food and breathing air, to swimming plastic waste dumps in the oceans that reach the size of the expanse of Texas each, are already directly life-threatening in certain places, but threaten human and animal health around all the planet, now and increasingly in the future, putting the chances of the next generation more and more into question. We commit physical injury and slaughter of unborn generations.

The more comfort we have at risk, the more we seem to be willing to still doubt the climate change and global warming. – Can we really be sure that the living style we enjoy in the West can be maintained without going at the cost of the many, and ultimately, at the cost of our own future? Can we safely as-sume that it is only a question of more or less comfort when talking about climate change, ignoring that maybe in reality it is the more a question of survival the lower we are positioned in the global hierarchy? Will our thinking about justice and work-earned rewards really make a difference for our fates when we are being faced with vital resources growing thin in the global village we now live in? “If I don’t grab the nugget, then somebody else will”, and “ first let the others demonstrate their good will and best in-tention, then I’ll follow” – are these truly wise strategies – or are they maybe the repositioning of ad-dressing necessities to a place and time after our time on earth, and after our life – into the time of our afterlife? “And after us, the flood…?”

In the work of Joseph Tainter you find the argument that “complex societies” like our current one, but also historic ones that he lists as examples, should be expected to be especially capable to deal with problems and threats to their existence deriving from fluctuations in their material basis, their supply with needed resources, and productivity. Their complexity, he argues, is their problem-solving compe-tence and adaptability. He argues that when a society realises that it is threatened and that there are dan-gerous problems putting it’s survival in question, that then it would start to address the problems and eventually adapt to new conditions, if needed, and he implies that it’s range of problem-solving options is the more diverse the more complex its social and economic structure is. He also follows a thinking that says that crisis occur at times when the economical exploitation of the ecosphere a community is living in, does not produce the revenues anymore of earlier times, and productivity therefore drops.

Obviously, this reflects widespread popular thinking today, but maybe that is only because it is a self-reassuring feedback to ourselves that as long as we do not see ourselves addressing problems, the prob-lems are not really threatening – that’s why we must not act on them! Can we really be sure that we do not follow this thinking for one reason only? Because it reassures us that we do well in not changing, not acting, living in assumed eternal comfort and not being in danger at all? Isn’t that just an all too seduc-tive view on life – our life in the first world? It certainly is the easiest, cheapest and most comfortable way we could imagine for our future.

There is also parallel between Tainter and the thinking of classic economy theory (of capitalism in Anglo-Saxon interpretation), saying that the total quantity of available resources does not really matter, and things really depend on the amount of financial investments in exploitation, and in research to find modified approaches and procedures to do so. In this influential theory, monetary options decide on the material options, the problem is not a shortage in resources, but only a shortage in capital exclusively. The material reality somewhat gets neglected, like the human reality – resources, items and persons all get translated into monetary equivalents. I do not hide that I consider this theory to be very blatant bol-locks, and as being extremely dangerous both for the planetary environment, and human social commu-nities survival, and their members’ self-esteem and dignity as well.

The argument that eventually ecological collapse all alone could cause cultural and civilizational col-lapse as well, Tainter rejects. The problem I have with his position is that he is right in pointing out that the fall of some societies indeed took place under exclusion of explicit environmental factors: several historic and ancient societies as well as the modern Soviet Union could be mentioned. But Tainter tends to say that environmental factors NEVER are sufficient to cause the fall of a civilisation. And I think that is where he is erring.

However, history teaches us many lessons on complex societies that collapsed in times of crisis in gen-eral - as well as in times of explicit environmental collapses in special - although they were equipped with the needed competence and potential that should have enabled them to address, solve and survive the crisis that instead destroyed them. Therefore, Jared Diamond in direct reference and reply to Joseph Tainter focuses on the negative examples of the Easter Island, the Pitcairn and Henderson Islands, the Anasazi in Chaco Canyon, the Maya in Central America, the Vikings in Greenland, the genocide in Rwanda, the Dominican Republic and Haiti, and the undecided fate and huge environmental challenges of China, Australia and the US state of Montana. The Highland of Indonesia, the island of Tikopia and the Japanese Tokugawa shoguns he gives as positive examples for illustrating why other societies were able to react to self-constructed threats and dooming environmental challenges, and addressing them, surviving crisis and long periods of time therefore. Other examples in positive and negative could be mentioned as well, from the abandoning of the official apartheid in the United States to the fall of the Soviet Union.

But the negative examples lead us to asking this single question: why is it that societies by reasoning and despite no hint and evidence for the disaster unfolding being hidden from them, nevertheless have cho-sen for a path and behaviour that lead to their ultimate self-destruction and extinction of their popula-tion, either by non-acting or by investing into the wrong strategies for acting?

Of the authors I have read this year on these issues - mainly Arnold Toynbee, a bit of Carroll Quigley, Jared Diamond and Joseph Tainter – I found Diamond to be arguing the most convincingly, and describ-ing most precisely his observations. Some find his work repetitive – I find it is an overwhelming sum of evidence and precise, wide-spread observations and conclusions supporting his thoughts. I want to ex-plicitly point out that in the following comments I follow the structure of parts of his work very closely. The following 4-point structure in principle is the summary of one chapter from one of his books. I add the historic references as examples of illustrating value only, like he does, but leave it to just mentioning them without explaining them in depth, because that would be beyond the limit of this text. Be aware that the societies and their fate that get mentioned in just one or two sentences, he spent one, two or three chapters on to explain them in full.

Diamond in parts agrees with Toynbee. Both authors see the collapse of cultures also being caused by small elites that failed to govern the community correctly and with at least the minimum of needed bal-ance between egoism (self-centred interests: privileges), and altruism (community-focussed interest that also could include offsprings and the following generations). Both authors also agree that where you want to ensure that governors govern for the sufficient interest and benefit of the people, the people must make sure that those governing them are affected by the consequences of their governing the same way the ordinary people are affected. That’s a practical implementation of the golden rule, do as you would be done by. If governors can avoid negative consequences suffered by the many when choosing for something that benefits their personal interest, the probability that they will do that increases dramati-cally. But different to Diamond, Toynbee like Tainter and many other authors of their branches ignore or minimise the role of environmental factors in the collapse of societies.

Societies would be expected to react when they realise there are problems. But many have not, until their extinction that “not so much was caused by murder, but suicide”, as Toynbee put it.

And I have the very bad feeling – and see it confirmed when monitoring politics, economics and ecology as well as environmental developments - that our global civilisation today just repeats once again this suicidal pattern of not reacting in time – or better: of not having reacted in the past while there still has been time.

An important question therefore is: why is this so, and is the dynamic of the answer to this question still effecting our fate for the worse.

One could point at individual wrong decisions causing collective erratic developments and collective wrong decisions in the aftermath. One could hint at interest conflicts and lobbyism, group dynamics and the self dynamics of actual conditions and processes that already have been triggered, wanted or un-wanted, knowingly or unknowingly.

More systematically, there are four scenarios for why societies do not act in the face of vital problems threatening their existence:

1. A problem does not get recognised before it has become existent.

2. A problem does not get perceived as a problem or does not get realised, although it is real and does exist.

3. After realising a problem, nothing gets done in order to solve it.

4. The attempted solution fails.

Let’s look a bit closer.

1. A PROBLEM DOES NOT GET RECOGNISED OR FORSEEN BEFORE IT HAS BECOME EXISTENT.

1a) It may be because the society has no matching pre-experiences to which it could compare.
Examples are
- the introduction of rabbits and foxes and other foreign species in Australia;
- the Norse in Greenland who saw a vegetation reminding them of that in their home of Scandina-via, but did not know initially that it grew many times slower than in Scandinavia and erosion being a greater problem once they started to chop away the green and tried farming with sheep and cows. The vegetation destroyed grew much, much slower than they used to know from Scandinavia, it was not replaced as fast, the soil was exposed to the elements for longer time. Le-thal starvations in the end were the result when the Viking society collapsed;
- The Norse in Greenland not foreseeing that opening of trading routes from Europe to the Far East made their most precious trading resource, ivory, less valuable;
- The society in Greenland becoming more and more isolated from northern Europe when growing levels of sea ice interrupted shipping during the medieval cooling: Europe to which it tried to stay attached in culture and customs, as well as depending on items and goods from Europe, es-pecially metal.

1b) Earlier knowledge and experience is so old that it got forgotten, or it’s relevance for the actual problem does not get recognised.
Examples are
- the Anasazi in Chaco Canyon falling victim to eroding agricultural soil and a drought in the 12th century, since they had no writing and thus no scriptures transporting experience with earlier droughts from the past to their present;
- the Maya, whose society fell victim to a drought in the 9th century. They had a written tradition – but it exclusively dealt with heroic stories about their kings and priests, and contained no weather reports and agricultural advice;
- the oil crisis from 1973 - and gasoline-wasting SUVs becoming popular just short time later;
- a great drought in the region around Tuscon in the 50s –which was answered by a boom in build-ing golfing resorts that needed ridiculous amounts of artificial watering that caused havoc on ground water levels.

1c) Conclusions basing on false analogies
Examples are
- the Norse in Greenland faced life-threatening erosion of soils (the vegetation looked like they used to know from Scandiniavia, but the ground in Norway was heavier and more made of clay, while in Greenland it was much lighter and contained much volcanic ashes that the wind and the rains and storms could blow and wash away);
- the French Maginot Line in WWII (assuming the Germans would fought the next war by the same tactics and strategies like in the earlier war, without altering them. This wrong assumption was and still is often made in the military: that the next war would be fought the same way like the last one).

2. A PROBLEM DOES NOT GET PERCEIVED AS A PROBLEM, OR DOES NOT GET REALISED, ALTHOUGH IT IS REAL AND DOES EXIST.

2a) The cause of the problem cannot be seen, is beyond perception.
Examples are
- Australia, Montana, Mesopotamia: nutrients in the soil get used up by overfarming or erosion and washing-out; salienation of soil (Versalzung);
- Mining activity releases copper and acid leaches that pollute ground water, sediment layers, etc.

2b) Decision makers are too far away from the location where the action takes place.
- In Montana, woodcutting corporations have not sent their deciding managers to the forests they were farming 800 and more miles away, so they did not see that the high level of undergrowth was becoming a problem that allowed huge firestorms to set ablaze large areas of otherwise high trees that would not have burned as easily by themselves if they would have been surrounded by too dense undergrowth. The result was one of the greatest forest fire disasters in the history of the United States.
- Different to that, the people, living on the very small island of Tikopia (4.66 km2, population 1300) have all areas of their island in sight from everywhere, making clear to every person that whatever happened to the land and effects the one, necessarily must effect all the others, too, and that the land and it’s resources are limited. That’s why sustainability has become the total top priority in their ways of how they use their land for farming and benefiting from replacable re-sources. Strict birth control also is an indispensable precondition for their success.

2c) The problem manifests itself very slowly, in a slowly growing trend with huge fluctuation.
Examples are
- Global Warming; getting negated time and again be referring to not general trends but micro-cycles that represent just natural short-termed fluctuations, or by referring to the actual local weather report;
- the periods of droughts that killed the Anasazi and Maya civilisations;
- the cooling during the medieval age that isolated Greenland and Norse settlers more and more;
- “creeping normality”, meaning a process of yearly averages slowly but constantly falling until the general norm has constantly fallen as well, so slowly that nobody notes it;
- “landscape forgetfulness” (Landschaftsvergeßlichkeit), meaning that human mind does not become aware of constant slow changes in the landscape a person lives in. But seeing pictures of that land-scape how it was 40, 60 years ago, may reveal dramatic changes. One of the most striking examples are disappearing glaciers, or the advance of deserts all around the globe.

On the other hand, the Tokugawa shoguns had such an amount of direct control and direct power that they were able to quickly react to the very fast disappearing of forests in ancient Japan. The fast destruction to nature made the dramatic consequences obvious to the observing human eye. Today, Japan’s forests all are managed and cultivated, and cover three quarters of Japan again. Not Brazil, not North America and not Germany or Scandinavia are the most competent and successful forest farmers on Earth, but the Japanese. And their forest lives and prospers although being economically used.

3) AFTER REALISING A PROBLEM, NOTHING GETS DONE IN ORDER TO SOLVE IT.

The various motives listed here are often hard to be strictly differed from each other. Often they are mixed.

3a) Conflicts of interest.
These can result from very rationally concluding that not doing something may be profitable for oneself, although it is costly for the others. The decision not to accept responsibility for some-thing even when one has done it oneself, or not to address a problem for other reasons, therefore can be rational, nevertheless is open to attack by ethical argument.

3b) The perpetrator knows that he will get away with it.
Examples are cost-effect calculations in the face of weak jurisdiction. Again, these are rational considerations that sound logical in themselves, but are open to attack by ethical argument:
- the profit from violating a rule or legal demand may be bigger than the penalty for the violation.
- ineffective economy branches are kept running or do not get modernised, because they receive voluminous subsidies keeping them alive.
- woodcutting companies may sign contracts and pay a lease for using a certain piece of land for a limited time. Logic tells them that in that time they should make as much use of it as possible so they try to achieve the maximum quota of cutting trees. When the contract ends, the owning nation and local people are left to deal with the eroded land and long-term-consequences.

3c) Egoism
“It may be bad for you, but it is good for me.” Examples:
- instead of investing into modernisation and improving working conditions and loans for workers, a board of directors decides to raise it’s bonuses.
- A mining company moves away after giving up a mine and does not pay for cleaning the acid leaches and properties.
- a healthy company gets destroyed and it’s workers betrayed by investments funds in order to give foreign investors a maximum profit by bleeding the company white and exploiting it’s fi-nancial and economic assets beyond what it needs to stay alive and healthy: the so-called “locust plague”.

- “prisoner’s dilemma”, a known motive in social psychology, also meaning the “dilemma of shared property”. This deals with the logic of collective acting creating collective disadvantages. The individual in a group may very well be aware that doing something, like overfishing that communally-owned lake, may be bad for all others as well, but that the persons thinks: “if I do not catch those last fishes in the lake, than the other fishermen will do – I could as well catch the fish myself.”
This one is tough to solve, a solution can be to enforce quotas (but controlling them needs the
ability to project the needed force). That families may be allowed to hand on the possession of a given renewable resource from one generation to the next, may be a better solution, or a com-plementing solution, because then the owning generation has a self-interest to keep the property in good shape so that there is indeed something left that can be handed over. A small community also, as often, is at an advantage, because then everybody can see with his own eyes the dimen-sion of the community’s possessions and resources, and can see how every single man’s actions influence everybody’s ups and downs.

- Interest conflicts of egoism can also emerge if in a given community there are long-term collec-tive interests for maintaining resources, but consumer interests are opposing this and want to consume them quickly no matter long-term maintaining them. This is the classic conflict be-tween environmental protection, and the excessive exploitation of a piece of land by corporations leasing the place for short time only. You can also see it in the sometimes irresponsible mindset of the young that sometimes argues “what do I care for the far away future, I want my fun NOW!”

- Often there are interest conflicts driven by egoism between the powerful and the deciding elites, and the general population and the rest of society – especially if the elite has the means to cut off itself from the negative consequences of it’s decisions. The behaviour of greedy bankers in the finance crisis is the prototype example, or the rich families rallying around a dictator in a banana republic were the people are suppressed by the military. The exploiting of their position for per-sonal gains by the ENRON bosses could be mentioned, or the fight for reputation and prestige of the clan chiefs on the Easter Islands ruining their economy and ecology in the effort to outshine each other by building higher statues.
The probability of this happening could be lowered if making sure that those in power and mak-ing decision cannot escape the negative consequences of their decisions and must face these con-sequences like everybody else.
The reasons mentioned above so far prevented for the most any rational solutions to pressing, vi-tal problems of the present – the advantage of the few prevents them at the cost of the many, and the long-term cost of all.

- Then there is irrational behaviour in general, action and solutions get prevented by
o religion and values,
o uncontrolled population growth
o historical conservatism and traditionalism
o historic self-definition, emotional sentimentality, misunderstood “steadiness”
o the so-called “effect of lost investments”, meaning that one already has invested so much into a wrong strategy that one does not want to change that strategy if that means that all those previous investments are lost and/or cannot create reward. So one continues to in-vest even more into doing the wrong.
o “shoot-the-messengers, ignore the message”
o rejection of everybody who questions what one has grown fond of
o previous false alarms
o conflict between short-termed and long-termed interests (G.W. Bush for example made it governmental policy when he took over that his administration would ignore every prob-lem that would not have the potential to seriously damage the United States within 90 days).
o Mass hysteria
o Lobbyism and it’s propaganda
o The stress of pressure from the outside subjugates members of a group to collectively support decisions instead of thinking individually and questioning these decisions criti-cally.
o What is unpleasant, worrying, intimidating, gets successfully repressed from conscience.

4.) THE ATTEMPTED SOLUTION FAILS

There are three scenarios for that.
- Skills, abilities, resources and potentials that are available, are not sufficient for the task.
- A solution gets rejected because it is too expensive.
- A problem already has progressed too far and can no longer be tackled.

I plan to add some more stuff, on egoism, altruism, agape, reasonability and rationality, but for the moment i am done, and since it nevertheless already is a package somewhat round and complete in itself, for the time being I set up what I have so far.

Oh, and the material I had on mind when doing this:

Jared Diamond: Kollaps: Warum Gesellschaften überleben oder untergehen
Jared Diamond: Arm und Reich: Die Schicksale menschlicher Gesellschaften
Samuel Huntington: Kampf der Kulturen
Herrfried Münkler: Imperien. Logik der Weltherrschaft
Carroll Quigley: Katastrophe und Hoffnung. Eine Geschichte der Welt in unserer Zeit
Joseph Tainter: The Collapse of Complex Societies (partly, no German edition available)
Arnold Toynbee: Der Gang der Weltgeschichte: Aufstieg und Verfall der Kulturen

Skybird
12-11-09, 09:17 AM
reserved

Skybird
12-11-09, 09:18 AM
a reserved reserve, just in case

SteamWake
12-11-09, 09:44 AM
tldr... :salute:

Snestorm
12-11-09, 10:38 AM
Quite a read.
The post provides many facts and truths. It also opens the door to quite a-bit of thinking and critical analysis, which is very healthy.

I'll have to admit that the reading was slowed by a need to digest, and adjust to, unfamiliar terminology.

In wasn't difficult, while reading, to form comparisons between some of the examples given, and events taking place today. However, I'd prefer some digestion time before passing further comments.

I must add: Thank you for your time, as this must have cost you a considerable amount.

Skybird
12-11-09, 10:57 AM
I must add: Thank you for your time, as this must have cost you a considerable amount.

Nah, it's hobby. :DL A couple of evenings and every evening one or two quarters of an hour - et voila, there you are.

Schroeder
12-11-09, 11:24 AM
Wow, I managed to read it all.:doh:

Actually I guess the current problems can almost all be explained with a single word: Greed.
Greed is the reason for lobbyism.

Greed is the reason for not reacting (reacting is usually painful both to the citizens as well as to the leaders who want to be re-elected, best example is our new government and their mad idea of lowering taxes while announcing to make 100 billion € new debts next year.:dead:).

Greed is a reason for most wars (I want to rule, I want to own, I want those resources, I must be stronger than the other....etc.)

Now combine greed and convenience and you have the perfect "let's go on as we always did" scenario.

Just my spontaneous 2c.

FIREWALL
12-11-09, 11:31 AM
I'm going to copy and print it out.

NeonSamurai
12-11-09, 12:54 PM
Good read SB, I don't have any major criticism so far with my first reading.

Its also nice to be able to read what you write with out tripping over all the typos and other stuff, but you might wanna consider breaking your - key (or hitting your word processor editor) as there are many words that have - in them when they shouldn't. :03::DL

Skybird
12-11-09, 01:16 PM
Good read SB, I don't have any major criticism so far with my first reading.

Its also nice to be able to read what you write with out tripping over all the typos and other stuff, but you might wanna consider breaking your - key (or hitting your word processor editor) as there are many words that have - in them when they shouldn't. :03::DL

That - is because of the forum software messing up text format. I typed in Words, from there I need to copy to Wordpad (else you guys would not be able to read the text coloour, and from there I copy it to the board. Unfortunately, the way Words separated words at the end of the line automatically, does not get filtered out in that procedure.

Only on some occasions, I indeed do not know the correct writing indeed (longterm or long-term? it's or its? yourself or your self?). Some things i will never learn this late now.

I must confess usually I am lazy and just do not correct my typos resulting from typing too fast. No excuse for that, i really should spend some more time on that.

Anyhow, more stuff to come in the future - but not soon.

NeonSamurai
12-11-09, 02:09 PM
long-term, it's means "it is" and its is possessive (its stuff), and yourself, are the usual usages.

Anyhow this is what I was referring to: mo-tives, gen-eral, re-fuse, etc. Which made me wonder if your word processor was glitching.

Not meant as a criticism though, your capability with English is pretty close to perfect.. when you write carefully anyways. :-j

Skybird
12-11-09, 03:20 PM
Anyhow this is what I was referring to: mo-tives, gen-eral, re-fuse, etc. Which made me wonder if your word processor was glitching.

No, no glitching, these words were automatically separated because they stood at the end of the line. When copying the content to wordpad, the format changed, but these separations were carried over nevertheless.

Somewhere it can be switched off in the menues, I assume, so that no words separation takes place. Messes up the visual appearance of the text in Words, though.

Empty lines for example also do net get properly carried over. I have to enter two empty lines in words in order to get just one empty line in the forum software.

Schroeder
12-11-09, 04:21 PM
Isn't the software just called Word?:03:

CaptainHaplo
12-11-09, 09:38 PM
The inital post - while well written - is rather insulting and rather anti-Western in its tone. It can be summed up as:

"By explaining the thinking process (or lack thereof) behind the deniers of climate change, and pointing out how they simply are too caught up in their own selfishness or fear of change, those of us who embrace the problems can feel self righteous and intellectually superior. This allows us to also set aside any argument or fact from those nay sayers, as their error in thinking already shows any point they make that we don't like are irrelevant."

Or - as the old tactic is referred to, if you can't win by tearing down the facts, tear down those who present them instead. I can honestly only see this as an attempt to marginalize those who are not convinced on the issue of climate change.

I am going to start by pointing out some very basic flaws with the general premises, and go from there. First, lets deal with this:

First some general statements.

1. All human behaviour is egoistical in that even any rational decision-making and weighing of options depends on standards seen as valid by the individual – even where assessing if own standards shall bow to standards (or demands) of others.

Not all human behavior is egotistical. On the contrary, humanity has shown itself to be capable of extremes - both in selfishness and in selflessness. While our nature may be one of selfishness, our intellect allows us to act beyond that nature. From the person who puts themselves at risk for another, to the sacrifice every parent makes for their child when they could easily just say no, humanity as a whole often acts unselfishly - whether those acts are rational or not. Its also telling that the premise attempts to equate individuality and self determination with being "egotistical" - since an individual would "assess if own standards shall bow to standards of others". If it were not for the "egotism" of those who, individually, made decisions to rise against the injustice of the standards of others - the entire world would be still be supportive and accepting of such acts like slavery, women as property, etc.

Without the willingness of individuals to go against the currents, society and mankind would be nearly stagnant, and any stagnant civilization is a mere step from its demise.

2. Rational behaviour tends to be destructive in the long run, since it is based on egoistical mo-tives in the meaning of point 1.), and beyond, it favours the strong at the cost of the weaker. An economy basing on egoism as it’s prime motivation aims at preventing competition, dis-connects itself from it’s service for the community, and ultimately destroys both the com-munity and itself – doing so rationally, and as a result of rational, reasonable decision-making.

Here we go again - rational behavior is destructive - because its selfish. Yet there is proof that it need not be selfish. But take it further - or "beyond" - it favors the strong at the cost of the weak. How so? There is no context here - its just a statement thrown out there. Apparently the original author that Skybird references it to somehow thought that if he threw it out there, it might stick. And it goes further - because an "economy" (read that as any free market approach) that is based on "egotism" (aka - individualism) is destroying the community and world (apparently through global warming??)! Now - if you take the "strong" and "weak" and use them in that context - it still doesn't make a lot of sense. However, if you equate "strong" for "hard working" and "weak" for "lazy" - it suddenly makes alot of sense - and would read like this:

Any individual who does for themselves and is hard working has an advantage (strong) in any free market economy over someone who is lazy (weak). Now - let that just stew while we continue - because your going to see it tied in later as the West is further bashed.

4.) Any community, locally or globally, can only survive if it consumes no more resources than can be replaced naturally by the ecosphere the community lives in. The smaller the resource basis of a community, by own fault or as an environmental reality the community was confronted with from it’s beginning on, the worse it’s chance for long-term survival.

5.) A population growth/size beyond a level were sustainable management of natural resources is possible, marks the beginning of a downward spiral that ultimately must end in total collapse, if not being stopped by a decline in population size below the level of then-actual sustainable re-sources management again, which will be a lower level than before, then. If the loss and damage has become too great meanwhile, the environment from some point on cannot recover or cannot replace enough resources as would be needed to supply the population size currently in place, and the temporary losses turn into permanent losses.

6.) Permanent losses minimise future survival chances for later generations, by marking options that are no longer there since they have been consumed. All consummation of resources that do not get replaced by nature within the timeframe relevant for human evolution, like metal ores, oil, gas, are permanent losses, and will never be available again to the present or future mankind. There are resource types that - if consumed - are either sustainable or that are permanently lost from the very beginning on if consumed. Too excessive consummation of sustainable resources turns them into permanently lost resources.

Ok - 4 and 5 are perfectly logical and demonstrably true. In fact, we are in my own personal estimation - headed for a issue with #5 regardless of whether climate change is real or not. However, #6 - while true - is instead designed as a heart tug - think of the children and the future - stop consuming! While reasonable to a point - it fails to account for the normal progress of civilization. Or - to illustrate the point - when was the last time you went hungry because you couldn't find flint to start a fire and cook your food - all because previous generations used it up? As society moves forward, it develops new techniques of doing things that do not rely on the same old resources. A wise society insteads transitions into using new resources - but more often than not, those that argue for us to "consume" less - also want to block any attempts to use technological gains to enable us to produce and consume as we desire without harm to the environment.

We live in interesting times, to say the least.

The planet is crowded with humans like never before. The level of development and living conditions of 15% of the global population – the “happy few” in the industrialised first world, mainly the West – strictly contrasts to those that the lower 70 or 80% of the global population have to deal with, with mil-lions needlessly dying every year from starvation, disease and proxy-wars fought over precious natural resources. The reaction to misery and suffering often is either apathy, or political and religious fanati-cism, fuelling the conflicts of the present and near future.

Ok - here we see the thrust of the finger - the evil westerners (of course - that is usually meant as one country - the USA). What is ironic is that in one sentence, the claim is too many people exist, then it flips into hand-wringing over "millions" of that overpopulation "needlessly dying every year". And then there is the obligitory - we either don't care - or our political/religious fanaticism is the cause of the whole distress!

No credit for the fact that we - as individuals - give charitably more per capita than any other nation. No mention of the governmental subsidies that are granted every year to numerous under-developed countries - often only to be misused by dictators and tyrants who care nothing for their own people. No looking at those who oppress their own people and keep them starving and diseased, instead pointing at the nation and people who give freely of food, medicine and treasure to help save those lives. Our entire system of hard work has its rewards is unfair because it doesn't make everyone equally able to share the rewards.

And this isn't an insult and attack on us? Give me a break.

If Americans as a nation and people were nearly as apathetic as is claimed, we would be making the point that the more of them die, the closer the numbers of humanity get to what the global ecosystem can maintain. After all - the more that perish, the less overtaxed the system is right? But we don't make that arguement, because it would be morally reprehensible to most of us. Instead, we do what we can and shake our head at the hatred and envy that is so rampant.

The level of planetary garbage mounting and in-toxication of the environment, from aerial emissions over nano-particles and chemical agents in water, ground, food and breathing air, to swimming plastic waste dumps in the oceans that reach the size of the expanse of Texas each, are already directly life-threatening in certain places, but threaten human and animal health around all the planet, now and increasingly in the future, putting the chances of the next generation more and more into question. We commit physical injury and slaughter of unborn generations.

Again with the "do it for the children" line. You want to talk about physical injury and slaughter of unborn generations, we can discuss abortion. Again the reality is that there are ways of solving the waste problems - but the vast majority of them are opposed by the environmental lobby, not because of environmental concerns of today, but because of historical positions and fear - or could it simply be the desire to keep real solutions form happening - until nature forces the problem into a critical mass and they can thereby exert further control upon us "egotistical individuals"? After all - if solutions are found that do not strip individuals of their rights to self-determination, then the entire power grab that is in progress using climate change - is a failure.

Obviously, this reflects widespread popular thinking today, but maybe that is only because it is a self-reassuring feedback to ourselves that as long as we do not see ourselves addressing problems, the prob-lems are not really threatening – that’s why we must not act on them! Can we really be sure that we do not follow this thinking for one reason only? Because it reassures us that we do well in not changing, not acting, living in assumed eternal comfort and not being in danger at all? Isn’t that just an all too seduc-tive view on life – our life in the first world? It certainly is the easiest, cheapest and most comfortable way we could imagine for our future.

See - if your not sure global warming isn't real - if there exists even the slightest chance that the doomsday scenario might really happen - your ignorant or selfish if you choose to live in the "all too seductive" and "easy, cheap and comfortable" way you do. Stop being selfish - go build you a grass hut to live in right now. If your not willing to jump into the 3rd world - whether at home or abroad - and be counted amongst those "millions" who perish - your just selfish. We should all be ashamed of ourselves - who do we think we are, working hard for what we have?

One could hint at interest conflicts and lobbyism, group dynamics and the self dynamics of actual conditions and processes that already have been triggered, wanted or un-wanted, knowingly or unknowingly.

More systematically, there are four scenarios for why societies do not act in the face of vital problems threatening their existence:

1. A problem does not get recognised before it has become existent.

2. A problem does not get perceived as a problem or does not get realised, although it is real and does exist.

3. After realising a problem, nothing gets done in order to solve it.

4. The attempted solution fails.

Actually - there are other scenes and situations as well....

#5 - The problem isn't real to start with.
or
#6 - Reasonable solutions to the problems that would not cause a multinational regression - economically and socially, are opposed by those who want to use the "future problem" as a tool in which to enrich their own power, influence and control.

From here we launch into numerous "examples" of where things can go wrong. Pay special attention to the examples used.

2. A PROBLEM DOES NOT GET PERCEIVED AS A PROBLEM, OR DOES NOT GET REALISED, ALTHOUGH IT IS REAL AND DOES EXIST.
2c) The problem manifests itself very slowly, in a slowly growing trend with huge fluctuation.
Examples are
- Global Warming

The "reasoning" again assumes facts "not in evidence" - because the issue of GW is in dispute - no matter how much those who embrace it want to say otherwise. But when one is denouncing those with a different view as simply egotistical, selfish and uncaring, your not likely to be denounced, now are you?

3) AFTER REALISING A PROBLEM, NOTHING GETS DONE IN ORDER TO SOLVE IT.
3b) The perpetrator knows that he will get away with it.
- the profit from violating a rule or legal demand may be bigger than the penalty for the violation.
- ineffective economy branches are kept running or do not get modernised, because they receive voluminous subsidies keeping them alive.
- woodcutting companies may sign contracts and pay a lease for using a certain piece of land for a limited time. Logic tells them that in that time they should make as much use of it as possible so they try to achieve the maximum quota of cutting trees. When the contract ends, the owning nation and local people are left to deal with the eroded land and long-term-consequences.

3c) Egoism
“It may be bad for you, but it is good for me.” Examples:
- instead of investing into modernisation and improving working conditions and loans for workers, a board of directors decides to raise it’s bonuses.
- A mining company moves away after giving up a mine and does not pay for cleaning the acid leaches and properties.
- a healthy company gets destroyed and it’s workers betrayed by investments funds in order to give foreign investors a maximum profit by bleeding the company white and exploiting it’s fi-nancial and economic assets beyond what it needs to stay alive and healthy: the so-called “locust plague”.

That evil West and its evil capitalism again. While I agree its not a perfect system, and its also does need some independant and objective regulation, that regulation needs to be limited. The issue of the mining company in particular needs attention - because when it does happen - and it has - there are avenues to redress the problem. Capitalism is not the evil - the moral and ethical vacuum in which it can exist is. But wait - we aren't done!

- Then there is irrational behaviour in general, action and solutions get prevented by
o religion and values, Ok - religion and "values" prevent solutions. Lets abolish religion - and how are values going to be set? Or will there be no values? The point goes back to the self determination - give up your values to the collective group - or else your standing in the way of a "solution".
o historical conservatism and traditionalism Conservatism and traditionalism are apparently evil - because anything that differs with the new collective consciousness is an impediment apparently.
o historic self-definition, emotional sentimentality, misunderstood “steadiness” Historical "self-definition" - well yes you have your history - and I have mine - but yours is unimportant to who you are? Ever heard the saying that you either learn from your history - or your doomed to repeat it????
o rejection of everybody who questions what one has grown fond of Boy - talk about the pot calling the kettle black! This is exactly what this dissertation is trying to do - reject anyone who disputes the embraced philosophy!
o previous false alarms In the 80's - it was the coming ice age.... But if you doubt the "science" that is being forcefed due to previous errors - your to be marginalized. I guess no one ever read these people the story of "The boy who cried Wolf!"
o Mass hysteria If this is counterproductive to a solution, why does the pro-global warming side do all they can to instigate it?
o Lobbyism and it’s propaganda This cuts 2 ways - the evil corporations are not the only one's lobbying and putting out propoganda - but mention that and again your just an evil Westerner out to kill off "millions".
o The stress of pressure from the outside subjugates members of a group to collectively support decisions instead of thinking individually and questioning these decisions criti-cally. Hold everything! You mean like the scientist that admits was afraid he would lose his job if he didn't sign the "I believe in the science of global warming even after the emails were released"? That can't count as an example. After all - everything so far has been individualism and critical, independant thinking is supposed to be a bad thing! Critical thinking and individualism must only be evil if it contravenes or interferes with the best ways to grab power.....

I don't think Skybird personally meant this as the attack on the dominant Western society that it is. But to let it go unchallenged when it is so obviously flawed at so many points is not something I can do.

Snestorm
12-12-09, 05:08 AM
Ok - here we see the thrust of the finger - the evil westerners (of course - that is usually meant as one country - the USA). What is ironic is that in one sentence, the claim is too many people exist, then it flips into hand-wringing over "millions" of that overpopulation "needlessly dying every year". And then there is the obligitory - we either don't care - or our political/religious fanaticism is the cause of the whole distress!

This is something I also picked up on.

It's not just USA that gets this "Evil" label. It also gets afixed to anyone in Europe that opposes immigration. In spite of reaching, or perhaps passing, the maximum sustainable population, some insist that the fllood gates must remain open.

Europe's population is in a natural decline, as the laws of nature dictate it should be.
The super-supporters of socialism are in a panic because the number of givers are about to become outnumbered by the number of takers. Their "solution" is to import more "deprived people" from countries with a high birth rate. It doesn't solve the problem. It can only temporarily delay the end (Machiavelli), and compound the problem. The eventual price-tag of this self-serving behavior would be a european minority in Europe.

For anyone who thinks the face of a continent can't be changed, I suggest you look to North America, South America, and Australia. The original inhabitants are living at the border of extinction. Their cultures and languages are, for the most part, dead.

Incidentaly, the super-socialists seem to be applying the same "solution" to both North America and Australia. Their self serving "solution" is a ticking time bomb that grows in destructive capability.

My conclusions are based on common sense and logical thinking not hatred.

Skybird
12-12-09, 06:15 AM
There is neither a raised finger in the text I produced, nor is there talk or thinking of "evil", and the assumed bashing of the US or the West for ideologic reasons simply is Haplo's imagination. The argument is that we do not seal our doom because we are stupid or evil but that we have resonable, rational arguments for doing that. Which means that "ratio" and "reason" are no terms that are a desirable quality in themselves, but more of a tool that needs supplementing by other, additonal qualities that add orientation and intention to it. The time-scale also plays a role: we can have rational short-termed interest - that neverthelss are in threatening violation of not less (or even more) important long-termed interests.

If I really carry on with this text, i plan to spend some time looking at these things, and terms like egoism, altruism, agape, solidarity, rationality, reason, responsibility. The meaning of these terms is very context-sensitive and often not at all as obvious as popular - not to mention populist - language usage suggests.

As on population size, there is the environmental-physical-biological argument of that we are too many people, and the ethical demand that we just cannot commit genocide or sit still when millions get killed. Obviously we do the latter, but we take fire from moral arguments over that, and rightly so. What is there that needs further explanation? I often said that nature will take care of too huge population sizes the hard way (disasters, diseases, war), but from a human-moral perspective this correction towards more desirable population sizes cannot be enthusiastically welcomed by us rich "stinkers" living in wealth and comfort and security, I hope this is self-explanatory for everybody.

I also repeatedly, in different threads, gave an estimation that I consider the carrying capacity of this planet, to support human life on a general material basis not as excessive as today's Western standards, but also not on a basis so low that we would consider it to be poverty from a Western perspective, to be in the range of around 1 - 1.5 billion, if we should consume not more resources than what nature can replace within a timeframe relevant for man, and without polluting the environment so much that the total pollution level remains relatively stable instead of constantly growing. If you will a reduction of global population to that level, then you talk about the death of 6 billion people! Be careful to make such an argument thoughtlessly and without moral reflection. The biologic and physical reality is one thing, but we humans also have ethical concerns on our mind, and right so.

Interestingly, two days ago I linked to an interview with Dennis Meadows,
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,666175,00.html
who mentioned comparable estimations.


SPIEGEL ONLINE: Is it possible to have 9 billion people on the planet?

Meadows: No. Even 7 billion is too much -- at least if they are all to have an appropriate standard of living. If you think it is acceptable to have a small elite that enjoys a decent lifestyle and a large majority that is excluded from that, then the Earth can probably sustain 5 to 6 billion people. If you want everyone to have the full potential of mobility, adequate food and self-development, then it is 1 or 2 billion.

Over the years I randomly stumbled over other estimations in that range as well. 1- 1.5 billion I see as a realistic and therefore: desirable mark, in case of doubt better the lower mark. But if somebody now says "Okay, let's start with letting them die!", then my only reply is "Fine. You first, please."

You see, this conflict between realistic need and moral demand is just part of our global dilemma, and as long as you don't get 6 billion volunteers to commit collective suicide, I do not see how to solve it.

the trick to solve it would have been: to let things never detoriate that much in the past. now it seems to be too late.

CaptainHaplo
12-12-09, 11:14 AM
By all means Skybird, continue. I have no doubt that you do not see the points raised as finger pointing. In speaking with you, I have seen that you try your best to be balanced, and I respect that. Your intent is not an attack, but the points of the original writers apparently differs, regardless of whether you see it.

We can all agree there is a severe overpopulation problem. I personally cannot say that 1.5 Billion is the "ideal maximum" for the ecological system we live in, but anyone willing to be intellectually honest can see we are in a non-substainable cycle as things stand due to overpopulation.

I am fairly confident that almost all the community here would agree that genocide to kill off the excess population is an answer that is beyond morally reprehensible, and thus not an option. And your right, the solution should have been implemented a long time ago, before the numbers became higher than the limitation.

But is it "too late"? I for one don't think so. While there are ways to lengthen our viability in this system, ultimately the numbers must reduce drastically, or the ecosystem humanity relies on must expand. The question is, as a race, do we move forward to the abyss and jump in, allowing the ecological collapse to trim us back as a species, or do we slow our approach to the edge, while building a bridge over that abyss, so that we may continue to move forward as a race?

Should we choose the first, humanity will survive, but in such a regressed state that it would be nearly unrecognizable to most of us. Should we choose the second, then we need to stop arguing amongst ourselves over issues that will have little true impact on the equation - such as global warming - and instead look at the true and hard "barriers" to the survival of our species.

When it comes to "using" the resources we have, I must point out that only when they are gone will most people move away from them - out of necessity. While an unfortunate facet of our nature, it does create opportunity - because as is often said, necessity is the mother of invention.

Do continue - because I think the discussions will be quite interesting. However, when I see a flaw, or a finger point, I will bring it to light. It is not to invalidate the point of view, but to demonstrate its lack of objectivity. I personally am familiar with the philosophy that "rational" thought trades short term gains for long term problems, as well as that it lacks a moral component. However, the only alternative to rational thought - is instict. The selfish instict of man - which often times overrides his rational thought - is what got us in this mess to begin with.

NeonSamurai
12-12-09, 12:03 PM
I am only going to comment on a few things that really stuck out for me in your argument Haplo.


"By explaining the thinking process (or lack thereof) behind the deniers of climate change, and pointing out how they simply are too caught up in their own selfishness or fear of change, those of us who embrace the problems can feel self righteous and intellectually superior. This allows us to also set aside any argument or fact from those nay sayers, as their error in thinking already shows any point they make that we don't like are irrelevant."

Honestly I have yet to see any compelling evidence from the "deniers" side as you put it, that overwhelms all the evidence in support of man made climate change. Sure there are a few anomalies here and there, there always are. But the vast majority of evidence supports the theory of man made climate change. This is the key thing, as science goes by where the bulk of the evidence is, pseudo science however cherry picks a few arguments that appear to disprove the theory, and tries to present them as theory breakers. It doesn't work that way though, as science will forever be imperfect, and there will always be anomalies. Anomalies don't in of themselves disprove a theory, but they may point to some flaws which may later be overcome by improving the theory, or creating a new one which accounts for the anomalies along with everything before.

Another key thing is that most of the world's scientific community supports the theory. Yes there are scientists who do not agree, but again there always will be (there are scientists who disagree with the theory of gravity too). It is however usually telling when there is a majority consensus in the scientific community.

We could talk about the supposed falsification of data. But I have yet to see any evidence that it has happened to any great degree. I have seen one big smokescreen being thrown up by certain media people over it, consisting of misinterpretation, misquoting (out of context), etc. but I have yet to see anything that is truly damning. Perhaps though the investigation will turn up some misconduct, as I'm sure it happens. After all science is a human endeavor, and humans are flawed beings.

If you like though, we can start a new topic on the subject (I can hear the groans already :DL) and I will, time permitting, try to address any evidence you care to provide.


Not all human behavior is egotistical. On the contrary, humanity has shown itself to be capable of extremes - both in selfishness and in selflessness. While our nature may be one of selfishness, our intellect allows us to act beyond that nature. From the person who puts themselves at risk for another, to the sacrifice every parent makes for their child when they could easily just say no, humanity as a whole often acts unselfishly - whether those acts are rational or not. Its also telling that the premise attempts to equate individuality and self determination with being "egotistical" - since an individual would "assess if own standards shall bow to standards of others". If it were not for the "egotism" of those who, individually, made decisions to rise against the injustice of the standards of others - the entire world would be still be supportive and accepting of such acts like slavery, women as property, etc.Well there are some major social psychology and sociology theories that totally disagree with your claim. They actually ascribe all social actions that appear to be altruistic on the surface, to actually be egotistically motivated. One theory is that we do altruistic things to feel good about ourselves, which implies that the motivation behind the altruistic action is in fact self serving (self gratification). This is just one of a handful of prominent theories which try to explain altruistic behavior. I would also add that altruistic behavior tends to be rather rare, and that 98% of the time we act in totally egocentric behavior.

Anyhow not gonna delve too far into the theories unless you really want to, as that is a rather expansive subject.


Any individual who does for themselves and is hard working has an advantage (strong) in any free market economy over someone who is lazy (weak).If only that were true, then all hardworking people would be well off. Like my grandparents who worked very hard (you can't even imagine how hard they worked) every day of their lives, and spent a good part of it in abject poverty, often with barely enough food. Hard work does not make one successful, in spite of what the American dream claims. To be successful in a free market economy, you need to get other people to work hard for you, to make you money from their hard labor. To do that, you need capital, some luck, and often a cutthroat mentality. Then your grand kids will get lazy from inheriting your success, and waste it all being lazy and spoiled.

IMHO the American Dream is a total lie, one spawned to give the workforce hope, so they will keep working hard. The worker likes to dream that someday through hard work, he will move up and be the boss. But he never does move up, and all his hard work puts money into the boss's pocket, not his (sure he is payed, but he never gains, just maintains). Its a great idea though, make your workers think they can become the boss, and they will keep working hard and be less likely to rebel, believing that some day they will move up. The occasional story of success (often due to a lot of luck, or some very smart people) bolsters the fallacy that everyone can be successful if they just work hard. This is just one reason why I am not a big fan of the free market system.

CaptainHaplo
12-12-09, 11:42 PM
Neon,

On global warming, it is often said that there is a "consensus" on the issue. However, there are too many scientists that disagree for a "general agreement or concord; harmony" to be said to exist. In fact - here is the proof of it:

Less than half of all published scientists support global warming theory.
http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=8641 (http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=8641)

As for general data that points to errors in either the global warming theory itself - or what it means to the earth's ecology - here are some tidbits:

Greenland Ice Find Debunks Al Gore’s Global Warming Theories
http://newsbusters.org/node/13948

Global warming? It's natural, say experts
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-481613/Global-warming-Its-natural-say-experts.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-481613/Global-warming-Its-natural-say-experts.html)

Proliferation of Climate Scepticism in Europe
http://www.tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=110107A (http://www.tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=110107A)

The reality is - it is still a huge question. The recent emails that have been exposed simply bring that question into focus even more. When you have documented evidence that scientists willfully hid and destroyed original data, refused to allow independant review of their processes and computer models, and intentionally blacklisted other scientists who failed to uphold their desired view, I would say what they have done is not just "misconduct", but points to the fact that the real data didn't point to what they claim. We will see.

On the theory of altruism is truly self-centered - I am vaguely familiar with it. The reality is that you can take any action that anyone does, and find some way to claim it is selfish. A parent does for their child, only because they want that child to love them. A person compliments a co-worker on their appearance, they are either "kissing a$$" or - if the person is the opposite sex, trying to get laid. Giving to charity makes them feel better about themselves.... etc etc. In many ways, its rather a "freudian" way of thinking, though he was preoccupied with sexuality and perversion, this is tied to selfcenteredness under every circumstance. Sorry, but those who subscribe to the theory are often doing what is called "projecting" - using their own personal views of how they see themselves (often without realizing it) onto every other person. There are plenty of mental health professionals that do not ascribe to the same theory.

Now - the free market and hard work issue. The American Dream is real my friend. Too many people live it and create it every day. Answer me this - how many people become successful by being lazy in a free market society? No - hard work does not guarantee success, and yes, it takes more than just that to succeed. However, I said a hard worker has an ADVANTAGE over a lazy person - I didn't say a hard worker had a guarantee of success. Yes, some people work hard and never make it. This is undeniable. But the free market gives no guarantees to rich or poor. It does however, offer the chance to rise above - should you accept the challenge. In a socialistic economy, that chance does not exist. Thus, which is better in that one aspect?

Skybird
12-13-09, 07:38 AM
You are too uncritical, Haplo.

"Front groups"
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Front_groups

"Third party technique"
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Third_party_technique

Copying tactics from the tobacco companies' fight
http://www.citact.org/newsite/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=387

Beware Sceptics bringing "balance" to climate debate
http://www.spinwatch.org/blogs-mainmenu-29/andy-rowell-mainmenu-30/5334-beware-sceptics-bringing-balance-to-the-climate-debate

Bribing scientists
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2007/feb/02/frontpagenews.climatechange

Rupert Murdoch's and FOX News' role
http://www.desmogblog.com/murdochs-green-image-mucked-by-fox-news-misinformation

Exxon spending millions to cast doubt
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/exxon-spends-millions-to-cast-doubt-on-warming-427404.html

-------------

Example: Exxon's investement into lobbying and propagandistic scepticism (the estimations on money they spent are very conservative, btw, i remember to have seen values up to ten times as high)

http://www.exxonsecrets.org/html/listorganizations.php

http://www.scribd.com/doc/7334/Exxon-Money-2004-Key-Facts

http://www.exxposeexxon.com/ExxonMobil_politics.html

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A reminder of politics prohibiting scientists' free speech/publishing:
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=1419490n

Exxon and politics tried to manipulate the IPCC's work from the beginning on and even wanted key personnel being not sceptical enough being replaced:
http://www.nrdc.org/media/docs/020403.pdf

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Flurry of lobbying cash obscures US climate debate
http://www.mb.com.ph/node/227667/flurry-lobbying-ca

Exxon outspending Greens on lobbying
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601130&sid=aPuYDoceYMe0


A place worth to be monitored:
http://www.ucsusa.org/index.html




All the industry's lobbying efforts together rank in the billions - per year. Whole "think" tanks get founded by this money, whole media compaigns get run, whole parts of parties and goivernments get bought, whole structures inside the state's administration and offices get captured with personnel. These claimed "think" tanks are not think tanks at all, but propaganda brigades who use for the most just one most destructive tactic: to discredit science, and raising doubt, no matter where, no matter how, not even the most hilarious claim is too absurd as if it wouldn't be used in that battle, with pseudo-science getting wrapped into the claim to be real science and "balance" science" and representing consensus amongst anonymous huge crowds of true scientists.

In boxing, they have a name for boxers provoking, disturbing and destroying like this: they are called stinkers. what they lack in skill themselves, they try to compensate by trying to provoke the other in an attempt to nevertheless look good themselves.

NeonSamurai
12-13-09, 11:04 AM
Neon,

On global warming, it is often said that there is a "consensus" on the issue. However, there are too many scientists that disagree for a "general agreement or concord; harmony" to be said to exist. In fact - here is the proof of it:

Less than half of all published scientists support global warming theory.
http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=8641 (http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=8641)

Funny as I found several articles on the scientific databases which disagree with that article. Then there is the problem that no single scientific body of national or international standing has come out in dissent of GW. Unfortunately as is often the case, I can't offer them as they are in pay to view databases, in which most academic work is found.


As for general data that points to errors in either the global warming theory itself - or what it means to the earth's ecology - here are some tidbits:

Greenland Ice Find Debunks Al Gore’s Global Warming Theories
http://newsbusters.org/node/13948
This article is full of holes, it's heavily biased, and its working from the assumption of natural climate shifts only (global warming is more then just that), also the average global temperature increase claimed of 9 degrees F in the article flies in the face of most articles I have read which calculates the average temperature at about 5.5 degrees F. That makes me suspicious of the entire article.

Global warming? It's natural, say experts
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-481613/Global-warming-Its-natural-say-experts.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-481613/Global-warming-Its-natural-say-experts.html)
Ya that is already known to the scientific community that the earth goes through warming and cooling cycles and taken into account in the theories and calculations. The problem is what is happening now is going far beyond the normal natural cycles, according to virtually all the data we have.

Proliferation of Climate Scepticism in Europe
http://www.tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=110107A (http://www.tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=110107A)This article doesn't say a whole lot to me. First off the title is a dramatization, and isn't supported, as most of the scientific community according to the studies I have read supports the theories. Sure there are some dissenters, there always will be. Second I would be very interested in knowing who is funding them.

The reality is - it is still a huge question. The recent emails that have been exposed simply bring that question into focus even more. When you have documented evidence that scientists willfully hid and destroyed original data, refused to allow independant review of their processes and computer models, and intentionally blacklisted other scientists who failed to uphold their desired view, I would say what they have done is not just "misconduct", but points to the fact that the real data didn't point to what they claim. We will see.I have yet to see any actual evidence of wrong doing, just a lot of unsubstantiated claims coming from certain groups. If you have any actual evidence, please show me it as I would love to see it. I could also point to the huge swarms of false data and other crap coming from the other camp.

Oh and yes some scientific groups and individuals have been blacklisted. Mostly for committing demonstrable scientific fraud. SB covered that sufficiently though.

On the theory of altruism is truly self-centered - I am vaguely familiar with it. The reality is that you can take any action that anyone does, and find some way to claim it is selfish. A parent does for their child, only because they want that child to love them. A person compliments a co-worker on their appearance, they are either "kissing a$$" or - if the person is the opposite sex, trying to get laid. Giving to charity makes them feel better about themselves.... etc etc.Its actually found in several different theories, in 2 fields of human study. Parents love their children partly as they are genetically programed to, and the behavior is reinforced by hormonal responses. They also represent a continuation of themselves. Plus there is the socially conditioned and motivated reward of doing good by your kids, which when parents do as they have been socially conditioned to do, they naturally feel good about themselves (endorphins release).

A lot of this stuff is social conditioning. We are conditioned by our society to behave in certain ways, and when we do our brain reward ourselves (endorphins again). This is what can make such behavior egocentric, as are we acting for truly altruistic reasons, or are we really doing it for the reward we get for following social behavior.

In many ways, its rather a "freudian" way of thinking, though he was preoccupied with sexuality and perversion, this is tied to selfcenteredness under every circumstance. Sorry, but those who subscribe to the theory are often doing what is called "projecting" - using their own personal views of how they see themselves (often without realizing it) onto every other person. There are plenty of mental health professionals that do not ascribe to the same theory.Not really. Freud did certainly have an interest in human sexuality, which is unsurprising given that he came from one of the most sexually repressed societies in history (late Victorian, early Edwardian). Btw the concept of projection came from Freud himself :DL. This is actually based on much more modern research, including research using fMRI imaging of the brain showing the activated centers of the brain when doing certain things.

Now - the free market and hard work issue. The American Dream is real my friend. Too many people live it and create it every day. Answer me this - how many people become successful by being lazy in a free market society? No - hard work does not guarantee success, and yes, it takes more than just that to succeed. However, I said a hard worker has an ADVANTAGE over a lazy person - I didn't say a hard worker had a guarantee of success. Yes, some people work hard and never make it. This is undeniable. But the free market gives no guarantees to rich or poor. It does however, offer the chance to rise above - should you accept the challenge. In a socialistic economy, that chance does not exist. Thus, which is better in that one aspect?Hard work alone never guarantees success. Also hardly anyone achieves the American Dream, to become independently wealthy and successful. The vast majority slog it out day to day, never getting ahead. There is very little chance to get ahead to most people, unless they are dumb lucky, or are much smarter then average. I would also say that the smart lazy people have an advantage over the hard worker, they find the ways of getting others to do for them. There are also several lazy people who let their money work for them. To succeed in a free market system, you need to have your money work for you, not work for your money. But you need money in the first place to do that, or a hell of a lot of luck. Frankly I think intelligence in our society is a far more useful trait to have then hard work, you much more likely to go farther having that over the other, especially if you mix ruthlessness in.

CaptainHaplo
12-13-09, 11:22 AM
No Skybird - it is you who are to "uncritical".

Take a look at your own data. For example:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/7334/Exxon...2004-Key-Facts

Did you happen to do more than glance at it? It lists CORE - or the Congress for Racial Equality - as being a major fundee of environmental science! Go look at what CORE really is:
http://www.core-online.org/Features/what-is-core.htm
(also notice your link couldn't attibute any environmental statement to them)

Your link also makes a point to claim Exxon has spent - in 7 years - nearly $16 Million in "research" that is purposed to debunk climate change. Ok - lets say that they actually have -though the site's accuracy is already in question. Lets give them the benefit of a doubt. How much has been spent trying to PROVE climate change in that same time?

http://truedsicernment.com/2009/01/28/apparently-global-warming-research-needs-a-federal-bailout-as-well/
The 2009 US Congress is spending $400 Million alone on it - in ONE year!

http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/2008/04/california_to_f.html
The state of California is putting a total of $600 Million into it.

Lets not forget so called "Foundations" - like this one offering $100 Million:
http://www.todayscampus.com/articles/load.aspx?art=207

Of course - those "scientists" who are debunking global warming are doing it just for the money - selling their principles for dollars right? So what do you think Phil Jones - the head of CRU was doing all that time he was pushing this junk science on us? Could it have been collecting grant money from taxpayers around the world? Surely not, right? Think again!

'Climategate' professor Phil Jones awarded £13 million in research grants
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/copenhagen-climate-change-confe/6735846/Climategate-professor-Phil-Jones-awarded-13-million-in-research-grants.html

The reality is - follow the money. Sure companies are spending money on this. Its their livelihood. But the money they are spending pales in comparision to that which is spent continuing to "research" and force feed this bullocks to people. And the scientists pushing global warming - as the CRU emails demonstrate - have been selling their integrity and the integrity of the science behind this issue - for the "research" money it provides.

But too many people want to dismiss that as merely "inappropriate behavior" by a few people. They don't want to discuss the FACTS that data was distorted - and that the data is the same data that the UN has been using for how long to tell us this is real. Don't look at the man behind the curtain, just pay attention to me - I'm the wizard of oz! Even politicians like Pelosi are doing the same thing - obscure the problem and hide the real data and facts - by sending people off on other things - like "these hackers broke the law - we must seek justice!". Well what about the mailicious embezzelment of taxpayers money all in the name of "research" that produces an outcome that cannot be verified by independant sources????

Two of your links do exactly what I claimed your initial post does. It cast aspersions NOT on the data people provide, but instead tries to dismiss the people out of hand so that their data would not be taken into account. In fact - the one about "bribing scientists" is a grossly exaggerated and sensationalized headline. Read the story and you will see that. The one of Murdoch and Fox news - well - its a given that Fox news doesn't play by the same rules as all the other major media outlets, because it doesnt swallow the liberal agenda - so once again - it must be marginalized! Oh, but one news outlet is so damning - while how many others push this crap without ever asking hard questions of the salespeople?

Oh my - Exxon spent more on lobbying than clean energy did.... Gee, this is supposed to be a suprise? Exxon is alot bigger, therefore has more funds to spend than clean energy firms. What do you want, a "level playing field"? Why not just governmentally mandate that clean energy has to have a level playing field everywhere - including in the market!?!?

Personally, I think all lobbying should be done away with. But don't act like its some crime against humanity that a company with more money spends more. If you want to talk about crimes against humanity, we can discuss all that research money that scientists have taken and then come back for more - the whole time going "there is a crisis, we need more money - but no you can't see the data, believe us, we are scientists."

I can't speak for everyone, but human nature is admittedly greedy in general. Thus, if you want to get to the truth of the matter - follow the money. And Skybird, the majority of that money - has been flowing to the pro-Climate Change group for decades - and they have no intention of giving it up, regardless of whatever the truth may be.

Skybird
12-13-09, 02:09 PM
You imply that lobbying for economic interests and scientific research for the sake of knowledge per se are the same, and that thus publishing scientific data compares to economic lobbyism. what you ignore is the difference between science and pseudo-science (including the intention to replace the need to found one'S own argument with just discrediting the other). That reminds me a bit of what in German is called "Konfundierungseffekte" (although it is not really the same), you mistake the different nature of two qualities and try to compare them by using just one scale for both although you would need two.

I must say that I observe this habit of yours quite often, in your first reply in this thread and to NeonSamurai as well as in you thread on evolution and creationism - ignoring that the one is a scientific theory, the other is a belief. So when willing to compare the two or discuss their different content, one would imply that they could be compared on the basis of both being scientific theory. and I thought from the beginning on that this legitimation and raise in reputation for creationism was what you were after. ;)

By doing so, it can be explained why you also refer to - or imply that it is desirable to have - a "balance" between lobbying for climate scepticism over mostly pseudo-scientific claims made for economical profit reasons, and lobbying for scientific data produced by regular scientific work that - ideally - is not financed by the economy, but serves the purpose of knoweldge as a non-profitable self-interest. You - intentionally or unknowingly - ignore these differences and declare both things to be the same.

I necessarily must reject that.

Please note that I am quite aware of the academic business not being perfect in reality, and that all the human welaknesses and the individual interst for securing one's job and winning reputation by publishing, that ll these things crankle against each other. Also, many parts of the educational sector get fiannced and supported - and both means: influence - by private business and economic interests. that is the reason why I fully agree with the minoirty in Germany to have yearly fees for university edcuation: to allow the universities becoming more independent from lobbyistic funding again. that will exlcude some students of poor families from access to education, yes, and I do not ignore that. but I think that is the lesser evil, the first being more important to be adressed. I also am quite aware that the industry already has hijeacked the "green revolution" as well (energy saving bulbs), and that the pro climate-chnage-camp also can fall for unreflected lobbyism. the question however is if regular science if as effected by that as is economically lobbied pseudo-science by "sceptical" parties and the fossile-fuel-basing insdustries. And there I see a clear difference.

You also post with great confidence, and in your original reference to the text claimed with greatest, almost provocative :) naturalness many flaws to which you claimed - again with greatest naturalness - to have the needed corrections. But to be honest, I fail very often to see the relevance and consistency between the object of your criticism and the way you adress that object, that'S why I found it both so very confused (you) and confusing (me) that I did not try a reply, since the wealth of comment from you also would make it extremely time-consumming. Since you post with that great coinfidence, i must be allowed to say that I cannot see your reasons for your confidence to be so obvious as you seem to think they are. ;)

what I try to do is to put the objects of my interest in this thread - what I write about in that text - onto a basis that on the one hand is generalised enough that it has a high validity (relevance), on the other hand does not let down reliability (precision, correctness). That is always a balance you are looking for, no matter whether writing a book, or doing an experimental design (that's where the so-called reliability-validity-dilemma orignally comes from), or trying to define how much illustrating detail one needs to include without destracting from the main object. The 3 parts of the "preambel" for example originally had several additional remarks, which made it quite complex and repetitive, hiding the relevance for what I try to do here. I deleted much of it, and found that what was left was more generalised in formulation, but still by that: was releavnt in a far-reaching meaning. I planned from the beginning on to come back to these points again, if I ever manage to get it done in full planned length. Some of your criticism however seem to indicate that you do not see that relevance, mixed with some additionally erratic understandings of terms and non-relevant references that you meant to illustrate what you was after. Actually I did not find it illustrating, but spend more time with trying to figure out why the heck you were coming up with this given example now. Why needing to refer to abortion when the point is about envrionment, climate chnage and the way that threatens future generations health and survival, is especially illustratve I have with your way of arguing. You may see it as valid, to me it is: distracting.

I must say that I find it difficult and very ressources-consuming to adress your replies on a point-by-point basis, like I often use to do, usually, because our communicating modes at least regarding the intention in this thread seem to be extremely different, and I believe I also identified several habitual thinking errors of yours, like the things i tried to describe in this post, and that makes it impossible to discuss with you as long as these do not get fixed, since they are so basic. For example not making a difference between funding for science, and economic lobbyism.