Enemy crews reactions

[karamazovnew]

After countless sinking of enemy merchants I've grown tired with their complete lack of human response. Since so much trouble has gone into making our sub feel like machine controlled by a crew, I think that all ships in the game should preserve this feeling.

-Enemy crew getting killed by deck gun and AA gun fire or by torpedoes exploding near them. Especially the ones manning the guns!
-Enemy crew leaving the open deck when they're under fire unless they're doing something.
-Some indication of them fighting fires or pumping out water.
-No more dancing in the flames. If a ship is burning, it's dead, period. Even if it requires a few more rounds to sink. Fire reaching certain parts of the ship should create explosions that make additional holes in the hull.
-Command deck crew getting killed by direct fire to that area, rendering the ship less controllable (there are backup commands for rudder and engine below decks).
-Crews abandon the ship when it becomes clear that it WILL sink, either by severe flooding, massive fire, or the command deck is destroyed.
-Unarmed crews without escorts signaling you that their intention to surrender for inspection or sinking.
-The option to signal a neutral or even enemy ship that you will not attack it and signal her to pick up survivors around it.
-The option to option to "Search" enemy or neutral ships for cargo and requests to BdU for further orders.
-The ability to hear their radio signals and if they're calling for help, intention of abandoning ship or reporting your position without reason (neutral ships).
-Ability to report sinking on open frequencies, give directions or even supplies to life boats, picking op a small number of survivors, etc.

Such chivalric actions should increase morale and respect among your crew and superiors (even though such actions had been prohibited after Laconia). http://www.independent.ie/national-news/town-to-honour-wwii-uboat-crew-for-saving-28-sailors-lives-1890213.html

[Sky999]

I agree with all your points, but it is probably too much to expect from the devs. In saying that...It is SH5, we should be seeing the things on your list implemented by now.

[Sailor Steve]

SH3 was the first subsim to have crew on board the uboat at all. People complained about the way they looked and their lack of animation. It also had crew manning the guns on enemy ships, and people complained that they didn't do anything.

SH4 had animated crew walking around on the ships. People complained that they didn't actually abandon ship, or do anything special when they were under attack.

I too would like all the things mentioned; but I'm not going to complain too much if most of them aren't there.

[JU_88]

Agree with Steve, its a Sub Sim not a 'World Sim' so i wouldnt count on it.

[Stealth Hunter]

I must agree, especially after watching the new PT Boats KotS trailer. If you watch the ships, you can see crewmen running around on deck under fire (otherwise, just walking around), going into deckhouses, etc. Then, when a ship sinks, they jump off into the water and swim around. It looks amazing. Of course, Akella always was great at doing these things. It made them well known and respected when it came to naval games (like Sea Dogs and Pirates of the Caribbean). I mean, this is Ubisoft. They've got a lot more to work with than Akella in terms of manpower (and funds), this is the fifth Silent Hunter game, it's the next generation.

[iambecomelife]

After countless sinking of enemy merchants I've grown tired with their complete lack of human response. Since so much trouble has gone into making our sub feel like machine controlled by a crew, I think that all ships in the game should preserve this feeling.

-Enemy crew getting killed by deck gun and AA gun fire or by torpedoes exploding near them. Especially the ones manning the guns!
-Enemy crew leaving the open deck when they're under fire unless they're doing something.
-Some indication of them fighting fires or pumping out water.
-No more dancing in the flames. If a ship is burning, it's dead, period. Even if it requires a few more rounds to sink. Fire reaching certain parts of the ship should create explosions that make additional holes in the hull.
-Command deck crew getting killed by direct fire to that area, rendering the ship less controllable (there are backup commands for rudder and engine below decks).
-Crews abandon the ship when it becomes clear that it WILL sink, either by severe flooding, massive fire, or the command deck is destroyed.
-Unarmed crews without escorts signaling you that their intention to surrender for inspection or sinking.
-The option to signal a neutral or even enemy ship that you will not attack it and signal her to pick up survivors around it.
-The option to option to "Search" enemy or neutral ships for cargo and requests to BdU for further orders.
-The ability to hear their radio signals and if they're calling for help, intention of abandoning ship or reporting your position without reason (neutral ships).
-Ability to report sinking on open frequencies, give directions or even supplies to life boats, picking op a small number of survivors, etc.

Such chivalric actions should increase morale and respect among your crew and superiors (even though such actions had been prohibited after Laconia). http://www.independent.ie/national-news/town-to-honour-wwii-uboat-crew-for-saving-28-sailors-lives-1890213.html

I agree. At the moment, I am trying to implement a contraband searching system for my WWI Silent Hunter mod and having more complex crew behaviors would have been a real help.

I'm with you on survivors (possibly a maximum of 3-4) - hopefully the game lets us pick up important people such as captains and chief engineers for a small renown bonus. Even after the Laconia incident U-Boats were under orders to try and take captains prisoner if there were no escorts nearby. During the attack on PQ-17, for example, quite a few officers were taken captive b/c after the ships scattered it was safe for U-Boats to remain on the surface.

[karamazovnew]

Thank you all for your opinions. I'd like to point out that none of the points listed by me would require new resources. Lifeboats, picking up airmen, the decision of when a ship sinks, 3d enemy crews with animations, signaling between ships, all of these are already in the game, as are crew reports linked to the ships "We've been spotted, She's going down etc". Just a few lines of code are required to implement them. The only thing that might've sounded eye-candy was "Some indication of them fighting fires or pumping out water", but I only meant that flooding and fires should accelerate without the crew trying to prevent them, either from abandoning ship or from casualties. There's certainly enough time to look over this. Searching an enemy ship only means pulling along side your target and giving an order. 5 minutes later you are given the type of cargo, report to BdU and act according to orders. No leading of MP40 parties on the enemy ship :haha:. Ships "picking up" survivors would just stand stop in place and recieve a penalty flag if you play dirty. Again, simple codes.

[Webster]

i'll reply point by point:


-Enemy crew getting killed by deck gun and AA gun fire or by torpedoes exploding near them. Especially the ones manning the guns!
-Enemy crew leaving the open deck when they're under fire unless they're doing something.

the AI already has a trigger for detecting you so i dont see why they couldnt use the same detection trigger to have all deck crews man battlestations (clear the deck and man guns) since they would be on station and not moving around i think it would be no more drain on the engine and if anything it would ease up on the demand to NOT have them moving around anymore when at battlestations.

-Some indication of them fighting fires or pumping out water.
-No more dancing in the flames. If a ship is burning, it's dead, period. Even if it requires a few more rounds to sink. Fire reaching certain parts of the ship should create explosions that make additional holes in the hull.

agreed, fire should be treated like flooding (more time fire burns = more damage) and fires should work like flooding to so the damage level and cargo should dictate if the fire gets out of control and sinks the ship or if it goes out from simulated damage control teams.

as far as actually doing stuff like fighting fires, i think that would require some level of additional animation control from the game engine

-Command deck crew getting killed by direct fire to that area, rendering the ship less controllable (there are backup commands for rudder and engine below decks).

agreed, also they should have gun stations and crew be destroyable so you can eliminate the gunners still shooting at you inside flames or after you shoot the deck out from under them. if i hit the gun with a shell they should NOT continue shooting back at me.

-Crews abandon the ship when it becomes clear that it WILL sink, either by severe flooding, massive fire, or the command deck is destroyed.

this is already done in sh4 by damage or flooding and i want to see fire added to that too but not command deck, they wouldnt abandon ship only because of the command deck being destroyed but they would break off any offensive action and head to port ASAP

-Unarmed crews without escorts signaling you that their intention to surrender for inspection or sinking.

this would be better suited for a ww1 game, this wasnt very common to do in ww2 because your sub was too easy to get caught on the surface if you did.

-The option to signal a neutral or even enemy ship that you will not attack it and signal her to pick up survivors around it.

i see no point in it and this WOULD take away game resources for no REASONABLE purpose

-The option to option to "Search" enemy or neutral ships for cargo and requests to BdU for further orders.

sending raiding party to disabled ships before sinking them is something i would like to see if it could be used to extend patrols if food stores ran low but food stores may not be modeled into sh5 anyway so then there would be no need to board ships.

-The ability to hear their radio signals and if they're calling for help, intention of abandoning ship or reporting your position without reason (neutral ships).

i like this idea, you could use them as bait to sink the rescue ship

-Ability to report sinking on open frequencies, give directions or even supplies to life boats, picking op a small number of survivors, etc.

i see no point in it and this WOULD take away game resources for no REASONABLE purpose

[Sailor Steve]

I must agree, especially after watching the new PT Boats KotS trailer. If you watch the ships, you can see crewmen running around on deck under fire (otherwise, just walking around), going into deckhouses, etc. Then, when a ship sinks, they jump off into the water and swim around. It looks amazing. Of course, Akella always was great at doing these things.
And it has taken them how long to get it to the release point? There is a "New Screenshot" thread on the PT Boats board here dated July, 2005 - four-and-a-half years ago!

Do you want SH5 to be released in 2015?

[karamazovnew]

i'll reply point by point:

-Unarmed crews without escorts signaling you that their intention to surrender for inspection or sinking.

this would be better suited for a ww1 game, this wasnt very common to do in ww2 because your sub was too easy to get caught on the surface if you did.

-The option to signal a neutral or even enemy ship that you will not attack it and signal her to pick up survivors around it.

i see no point in it and this WOULD take away game resources for no REASONABLE purpose


-Ability to report sinking on open frequencies, give directions or even supplies to life boats, picking op a small number of survivors, etc.

i see no point in it and this WOULD take away game resources for no REASONABLE purpose

While I agree, allow me to explain.
You spot a lone merchant and you would have an option to sink it with deck gun. You approach it and signal it or shoot warning shells to make it stop. If it doesn't, or if it calls in for help, it can be treated as enemy and sunk without further warning just as before. Neutral ships might make this mistake and pay for it. However if it complies, you'll have a nice sitting duck easy to dispatch without further fuss or futile zig zaging. If the merchant is armed, you wouldn't go near it anyway so yes, after a while this tactic would be pointless. However some ships were ligthly armed and the crew had no combat experience so they could be persuaded by a few warning shots from far away.

About ships picking up survivors... I've recently attacked a convoy protected by one DD. I destroyed it with a torpedo and then surfaced to dispatch the remaining 4 british ships with the deck gun. The convoy also had 2 neutral ships. I did not touch them and marveled at their panic. In theory, they left hundreds of simulated and invisible men to die in the water. If a german sub sinks a ship beside you and then surfaces, signals you to stay calm and then turns tail and leaves you alone there's a good chance that you can trust them.

Reporting sinkings on open air to the enemy takes just one more button and only has the effect of tagging a close by ship (not more than 40 or so mile) to reply with assistance and change course (thus becoming neutral) and a few planes might also pay a visit. The boost in morale might be worth it. At least give me some sense of honor :haha:

[Lord Justice]

About ships picking up survivors... I've recently attacked a convoy protected by one DD. I destroyed it with a torpedo and then surfaced to dispatch the remaining 4 british ships with the deck gun. The convoy also had 2 neutral ships. I did not touch them and marveled at their panic. In theory, they left hundreds of simulated and invisible men to die in the water. If a german sub sinks a ship beside you and then surfaces, signals you to stay calm and then turns tail and leaves you alone there's a good chance that you can trust them.
At least give me some sense of honor :haha: Good day sir Karamazovnew, we meet again. You must tell me please, how long were these thread questions festering? By heavens man, i cheer you on, not in jest might i add. Without sounding, to set to one side, you and webster, well done. Alot of ground was covered, and many questions answered. That said, ...... i will refrain from retaliation, do not wish unrest lol, survivors idea i warm to alot. As for trusting them, would you ? Picking them up i believe is absurd, aloting some good chaps, to their needs! No, give them a good bottle of claret, and point them on the correct heading. Boarding party, another splendid idea, with the non action final report, but as Webster states for food only, if indeed low reserves to survive. one does not want to be branded with piracy,:arrgh!: thuggery at best. On the same point, so many what if scenarios could result, and with dire consequences to your boarding party. Ships company may change heart, last few seconds, Crew loss by (Enemy Crew Reactions).
Lastly, the sense of honor you asked? Iam sure you have earned. This thread Has been a worth while read for me and will continue to do so. Thankyou. :up:

[sergbuto]

I must agree, especially after watching the new PT Boats KotS trailer. If you watch the ships, you can see crewmen running around on deck under fire (otherwise, just walking around), going into deckhouses, etc. Then, when a ship sinks, they jump off into the water and swim around. It looks amazing. Of course, Akella always was great at doing these things. It made them well known and respected when it came to naval games (like Sea Dogs and Pirates of the Caribbean). I mean, this is Ubisoft. They've got a lot more to work with than Akella in terms of manpower (and funds), this is the fifth Silent Hunter game, it's the next generation.

The crew in PT Boats KotS also gets killed by the enemy fire (there are animations of that in the game) and the spot of the killed crew will be taken by other sailors. The crew comes on the deck through the hatches to man their spots so that teleportation (when the crew appears suddenly from nowhere) is mimimized. When a gunner pulls the gun trigger, his face expression changes, exactly as in real life. When the ammo clip is over, the crew reloads the gun (there animations for that as well).

When I modded some ships to appear as a player on their deck/bridge, some crew members were turning their heads towards me and looked at me. This is a generic feature which was programmed for the crew despite those ships were meant to be playable only in the third person view.

And the implementation of all these animations is quite efficient.

[JU_88]

And it has taken them how long to get it to the release point? There is a "New Screenshot" thread on the PT Boats board here dated July, 2005 - four-and-a-half years ago!

Do you want SH5 to be released in 2015?

'Nail on the head' steve.
Its a 'nice to have' which makes gun battles more imerssive I suppose
Pretty arcadey though (in a way).
Both U-boats and PT boats would get murdered horribly in a gun fight with a destroyer of any kind.
To their advantage, the PT boat has its speed and the U boat has its low profile - other than that, they are out-gunned and out-classed in every respect.
They got torpedos for a reason!

[Lord Justice]

The crew in PT Boats KotS also gets killed by the enemy fire (there are animations of that in the game) When a gunner pulls the gun trigger, his face expression changes, exactly as in real life. When the ammo clip is over, the crew reloads the gun (there animations for that as well).

When I modded some ships to appear as a player on their deck/bridge, some crew members were turning their heads towards me and looked at me. This is a generic feature which was programmed for the crew despite those ships were meant to be playable only in the third person view.

And the implementation of all these animations is quite efficient. Sir Sergbuto, Implementation, animations of head turning twisted facial expressions, of trigger happy gunners? good lord. Iam all for realism, but perhaps one should enlist in the army and stand toe to toe against the 42nd foot line infantry with 200 muskets made ready pointing your way. We are sailors in uboat, armed with torpedos as one so rightly mentioned earlier, if and when we engage the enemy, i think we should carry out our duty accordingly in the correct fashion. Iam a staunch supporter of using our superior advantage stealth, and striking a 1st volley unseen and at distance. Just my humble opinion, thank you. :)

[Stealth Hunter]

And it has taken them how long to get it to the release point? There is a "New Screenshot" thread on the PT Boats board here dated July, 2005 - four-and-a-half years ago!

Do you want SH5 to be released in 2015?

You don't really think that they spent 4 and a half years working on crew members running around on deck, do you? Read up on their dev blog. Most of that time was spent on the water geometry, ballistics, and physics. Plus, it's Akella. Again, Ubisoft has far more to work with than they do in terms of manpower and money, and quite possibly skill. We've already had characters on deck before (SH4 had them; I assume SH5 will too), all they need to do is do a few simple animations.

http://www.battlefront.com/images/stories/PTBoats/ScreensD/October-21---15.50.14.jpg

[Sgtmonkeynads]

In reference to people talking about picking up "survivors"
I remember seeing a movie in which this was asked of the captain and his response was " how many, one, a hundred".
Then they slowly backed away into the darkness.
If only I could remember what movie that was :hmmm:

[karamazovnew]

In reference to people talking about picking up "survivors"
I remember seeing a movie in which this was asked of the captain and his response was " how many, one, a hundred".
Then they slowly backed away into the darkness.
If only I could remember what movie that was :hmmm:

There has already been an entire thread dedicated to this issue. As I recall, the consensus was that neutral crews or highly valuable prisoners such as warship captains could've been transfered at supply ships or friendly ports. I was actually one of those that found this to be of little interest at that time (SH4, no word yet of SH5). Actually the captains reaction in the movie one year before Laconia (September 1942) clearly shows that the sailors were uneasy about killing enemy men, a fact that should be depicted in this historical sim. To quote wikipedia, "This event profoundly affected the operations of the German fleet, which abandoned the practice of attempting rescue of civilian survivors under the "Laconia Order" of Admiral Karl Dönitz. It was common for U-boats to assist torpedoed survivors with food, water, simple medical care for the wounded, and a compass bearing to the nearest landmass; it was extremely rare for survivors to be brought on board as space on a U-boat was barely enough for its own crew. Now Dönitz prohibited rescues; survivors were to be left in the sea. Even afterwards, U-boats would still occasionally provide aid for survivors." As I recall, my statement was : "Ability to report sinking on open frequencies, give directions or even supplies to life boats, picking op a small number of survivors, etc." I usually care more about the beginning items in any list :03:. The pickups which I would like to see in the game are done by other ships, not by the uboats. Still, the ability to actually pick up one or two people yourself might even change the way you consider behaving after each sinking. Raising a moral question after each torpedo hit might be or might not be a desirable thing. But these were my 3 cents :)

[Sailor Steve]

You don't really think that they spent 4 and a half years working on crew members running around on deck, do you? Read up on their dev blog. Most of that time was spent on the water geometry, ballistics, and physics. Plus, it's Akella. Again, Ubisoft has far more to work with than they do in terms of manpower and money, and quite possibly skill. We've already had characters on deck before (SH4 had them; I assume SH5 will too), all they need to do is do a few simple animations.
Excellent point, and I could be wrong. My point is that every time something is asked for, that's one more piece of development that has to have time made for it, no matter how little that may be. PT Boats has been in development for more than five years now, and we're still waiting. What happens when someone is playing it and notices something they think could have been better?

I stand behind my statement, even so. If this isn't already implemented, and it only takes one more month to put it in, that holds true for every 'little' thing that's been asked for. Me, I don't care if the crew abandons ship, or turns to look at me, at least to the point of calling them a "must-have". I'd like to see it all, but as I said five years ago, I would have been happy with SH2's graphics and AOD's gameplay.

[JScones]

PT Boats has been in development for more than five years now, and we're still waiting.
Still waiting? It's been in shops here since September. :hmmm: Or am I missing something?

[Ragtag]

In reference to people talking about picking up "survivors"
I remember seeing a movie in which this was asked of the captain and his response was " how many, one, a hundred".
Then they slowly backed away into the darkness.
If only I could remember what movie that was :hmmm:

Das Boot :) "one, ten, a hundred!"

[mookiemookie]

Das Boot :) "one, ten, a hundred!"

I think you missed the sarcasm. ;)

[Sailor Steve]

Still waiting? It's been in shops here since September. :hmmm: Or am I missing something?
Has it? I guess they kept me on the string so long I lost interest. Have there been many reports from people playing it?

[JScones]

Dunno. I was just shocked one day to see it in my local EB Games.

I'm tempted to buy it...but I might wait until it's a bit cheaper.