suggestions for techniques for attacking warships?

[I'm goin' down]

I have bitched and moaned about repeatedly being sunk when trying to attack warships, especially in TMO, the mod I live with. The dd's and de's find me too early in attack, and I usually never get a chance to "get my torpedoes off" in a manner of speaking. Then, once my boat is spotted I spend the rest of my short lived mission jumping around like a cowboy who is attempting to dodge pistol shots at his feet from a six shooter fired by an angry outlaw - just before he empties its chamber with a shot that finishes me.

Then ducimus, bless his soul, reposted his thread that a link to tutorial on active and passive sonar. http://www.ducimus.net/sh415/ai.htm (http://www.ducimus.net/sh415/ai.htm). Apparently RR posted it his sticky thread re Bag of Tricks after I posted the link in this forum about a week ago.

With that background, we now move forward.

I recently played a single mission from 1943, Tsungaro Gauntlet, which I believe was created by a member. After making it through the straights to the sea of Japan, I came accross the task force. The goal is to destroy its carriers.

First mission - could not intercept as the task force was running 16.5 kts.

Second mission - I replayed first mission from point of map contact. I submerged to 300 feet, followed radar until the dds passed, and surfaced to find that the carriers had also sailed by, leaving me to take on a dd, which I declined to do for reasons discussed above. I was not in position to complete the mission, so I exited stage right.

Third mission - I replayed first mission from point of map contact. I submerged to 350 feet and followed the same strategy used in the second mission, but this time surfaced earlier. Just my luck --the prime target was bearing down on my position and almost ran my boat down. I switched to aft tubes and fired four shots, and then switched to forward torpedeos and tried a hail Mary with a single shot, all of which missed. I never got a good aspect ratio although I was not far off in the calculations considering I had no time to id the carrier, prepare for the course adjustment, etc.

Fourth mission - I replayed first mission from point of map contact. I submerged to 200 feet and followed the same strategy used in the second mission, but this time surfaced when the carrier was closing from 16 degrees port at fairly long range. I set deep depth for the torpedeos, and target course at 180 degrees. I could not get a great aspect ratio because the carrier was far out, but I fired six shots and sunk the bastard. My course was off, but it made no difference in the end, as I hit 6 for 6 from the forward tubes. I used the Easy AoB mod to get range and aspect ratio.

The dds did not pick me up under the above scenarios, because my boat was below radar depth.

I still have my reserve torpedoes in the fourth mission, and as the mission continues and I am on the hunt for the other carrier.

The radar tutorial seems to be quite useful when going after warships. The downside is that it is difficult to identify and follow your target (i.e. a capital ship in a task force protected by dd's and de's) because you are submerged below radar depth if you use the strategy I employed. You can gauge speed and plot the task force course while at a long distance with map contacts on easily enough, but getting close enough to fire without being spotted is really tough. So, you submerge, follow the task force on radar, wait till the escorts pass, surface, make adjustments to the traget dials on the Attack Data Tool (as it is defined by Capn Scurvy's tutorial on High Realism), time permiting, and either engage or withdraw. Time works against you in this scenario.

Here are the ways I think an attack on a task force could work, but they are limited.

1. The technique above. You can use manual targeting with the Easy Aob. mod (i.e. avoid the dd's and de's and fire from close range, but your time to check target course, range and aspect ratio will be compromised.)
2. Gutted's constant bearing techique using the Solution Sover. (Long range, and probably outside of radar/sonar defense perimeter.) I have not tried this technique at long range, but theoretically it should work.
3. O'Kane technique. Using this technique at long range is risky because you are estimating the lead angle and the technique was intended to apply to targets at close range.
4. Cromwell technique. Long range, and probably outside of radar/sonar defense perimeter.) Time consuming to set up, but accurate at long range.
5. Easy AoB at any range as long as you can get a good aspect ratio.

Here are my questions, and I invite comments/answers, if you have something to say.

1. Are there other techniques available to avoid escorts at short range when attacking warships, assuming that the enemy is at battle stations with their radar and sonar fully operational?

2. Has anyone figured out if gutted's Solution Solver can be used to plot attacks at other than 90 degrees? If so, please post the technique. Eg. I you could use the Solution Solver at an attack angle of 45 degrees (i.e. the Cromwell technique), it provides the lead angle automatically once you input the target's speed. If so, it could be the answer to a lot of the problems arising from attacking a task force at long range (day or night attacks).

[Rockin Robbins]

Against carriers, the Dick O'Kane technique is absolutely accurate and deadly from 2500 to 3000 yards. I don't recommend 3000 yards as a fair percentage of your torpedoes will shut down before reaching the target.

If you don't like the 90º angle to the track, then using the vector analysis method will give you the correct lead angle for any approach angle to the track. Again, I'd be 2000 to 2500 yards out, torpedoes on high speed for greatest accuracy.

With the Cromwell method you have a MUCH greater chance of the target seeing the torpedoes and avoiding. I'd not use a longitudinal spread here. I'd shoot stern, MOT, bow in that order to get a divergent spread, less likely to be avoided.

I haven't updated Sub Skipper's Bag of Tricks yet. There is a bug in the forum software that isn't letting me edit any of my posts in that thread for some reason. When it's working again, I'll make the addition to the first post, which contains all the links.

[Laconic]

2. Has anyone figured out if gutted's Solution Solver can be used to plot attacks at other than 90 degrees? If so, please post the technique. Eg. I you could use the Solution Solver at an attack angle of 45 degrees (i.e. the Cromwell technique), it provides the lead angle automatically once you input the target's speed. If so, it could be the answer to a lot of the problems arising from attacking a task force at long range (day or night attacks).

Absolutely it can. Here's a demonstration using the same set-up I used in this thread (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=158799). In this attack, the target is still on a course of 341, but I've set my course to 40 instead of 70 as in the videos, meaning that when the target crosses my bow she will be at a 120 AOB instead of a 90 AOB. (I'm also attacking the battleship that's in front of me and not the cruiser that's behind me, but that's all academic.)

So, here's my data, entered into Gutted's solution solver:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v167/Laconic/AOB.jpg

My course is 40 and the target's course is 341. I've got the speed for the target (15 kn) and the speed of the torpedoes (Mk 10, travels at 36 kn). The red "periscope line" doesn't matter a whit since we're not trying to find the current AOB of the target, but right now in the solution solver the target is at the AOB that it would be if it were right in front of the bow (about 120 to port--not the right angle that you would see in a standard fast-90 attack).

You can see in the bottom-right corner that the "Shoot Bearing" box displays 24.5 degrees...that's the shooting solution for a constant bearing attack. So, in other words, if our data is perfect, we can shoot when the target crosses 24.5 and expect clean hits. Here's how the attack plays out:

I set up with a course of 40 degrees, with a 0 bearing AOB of 120 degrees:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v167/Laconic/AOB_01.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v167/Laconic/AOB_02.jpg


I set my scope to 24-25 degrees, as directed by the Solution Solver, and fire my torpedoes:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v167/Laconic/AOB_03.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v167/Laconic/AOB_04.jpg


Returning to 0 bearing, you can see the torpedoes on their straight course:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v167/Laconic/AOB_05.jpg


Hits!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v167/Laconic/AOB_06.jpg


I land five of six torpedoes. Because I was shooting straight at him (and not adjusting the torpedo course like the video) he manages to outrun the last fish, but I still inflict massive damage:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v167/Laconic/AOB_07.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v167/Laconic/AOB_08.jpg


And, as an added bonus, the errant torpedo finds a target in the far column:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v167/Laconic/AOB_09.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v167/Laconic/AOB_10.jpg


So yes, you can use the Solution Solver to find a constant bearing solution for whatever angle you like or whatever angle you happen to be on, not just 90 or 45. I was shooting at very close range, but I think this proves the theory.

[magic452]

As Laconic says gutted's little tool is just a very handy and accurate way of obtaining a vector analysis solution, it's very accurate at long ranges and any approach angle. Long range shooting is one way to beat Ducmius DD's

Laconic nice post there.

And, as an added bonus, the errant torpedo finds a target in the far column:

Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good. :up: :haha:

Magic

[I'm goin' down]

Laconic has anawered Question No. 2 of the original post.

That is an excellent presentation of the use of the Solution Solver to attack at a steep angle. It adds a dimension to the Cromwell attack. Since the attack is at close range in his example, we might want to try it at long range in an attempt to perfect it. What I envision is a long range attack at night. Assuming the same scenario as Laconic displays, the radar man will announce the target's position as it moves along its course. When it closes to 24 degrees (as its port side is crossing laconic's boat's bow), a salvo with a spread could result in torpedo impacts as the target crosses the wire at 24.5 degrees. I assume that the target's range or weather conditions when it crosses the wire prevent visual observation at that moment in time. If the attack is successful, it will be an advancement to the game. Rockin Robbins may want to consider adding it to the Solution Solver thread in his bag of tricks.

Using the Easy AoB in my hypothetical would be difficult. It is difficult to get a good estimate of range and aspect ratio at night, and often times it is not possible to see the target at all. That effectively nullifies use of the Easy Aob. With the Solution Solver the radar man should update the target's position if he is worth his salt. Since this is a constant bearing attack, range and aspect ratio are not required. With map contacts on, target speed and course can be ascertained. That is all that is needed, except for a steady hand on the torpedo firing buttons and a conservative torpedo running depth. The crew will love you.

Laconic's screen shots and explanation make a fine tutorial. You can zoom the screen to make out the messages from the radarman. Excellent job, Captain. Your reply is most appreciated.

[Rockin Robbins]

Please note that the further you get from a 90º angle to the track with the target approaching, the more likely they are to see the oncoming torpedoes and the easier it is to avoid the longitudinal spread. In the daytime, avoidance will approach 100% with a 45º approach. I would only shoot the Cromwell attack at night or in very heavy seas.

Actually the most tolerant attack for target speed and course is simply firing when the target is at a 90º angle on the bow. Yes, this means the torpedo track angle is aft of the beam, about 100º to 110º, even higher with a high speed target. Intuitively this seems wrong, but World War II analysis shows that this will actually get you more hits.

Make sure you always use high speed settings for Mark 14s. This is vital against a high speed target as you need every last speck of accuracy you can muster.

[I'm goin' down]

I was successful with one our to six shots at very long range using the Solution Solver with an AoB of 80 degress as a huge liner was moving away. I hit one out of six. The hard part is setting the precise angle on the Solution Solver when at long range. The target was doing 12.5 kts. The firing angle, therefore is based upon the average of the firing angles at 12 and 13 kts., as the Solution Solver does not calculate based upon fractions of kts. At long range, a slight error in the firing angle can result in a miss. At night, if you rely on the target crossing the wire when you hear the radioman call out the range, you will have to have a decent spread of torpedoes to hit the target. If the firing angle is 344.5 degrees, you will probably fire when the radioman calls out the target's bearing is 344 degrees. You will have to have a spread to have a hit at long range. You may not miss by much, but a miss is what it may likely be.

[Nisgeis]

Actually the most tolerant attack for target speed and course is simply firing when the target is at a 90º angle on the bow. Yes, this means the torpedo track angle is aft of the beam, about 100º to 110º, even higher with a high speed target. Intuitively this seems wrong, but World War II analysis shows that this will actually get you more hits.


For which country did analysis show that? Not for the US. Their analysis showed that attacks from ahead yielded the most hits. Firing on an AoB of 90 will mean the torpedo run length is greater than if you fired from ahead for a gyro of zero, meaning the run time is longer and any accumulated data errors will be larger.

In game of course, it doesn't help that all ships have magic brakes and ultra powerful engines for instant acceleration. That tends to spoil a lot of perfectly good shots.

[I'm goin' down]

For which country did analysis show that? Not for the US. Their analysis showed that attacks from ahead yielded the most hits. Firing on an AoB of 90 will mean the torpedo run length is greater than if you fired from ahead for a gyro of zero, meaning the run time is longer and any accumulated data errors will be larger.

In game of course, it doesn't help that all ships have magic brakes and ultra powerful engines for instant acceleration. That tends to spoil a lot of perfectly good shots.

You obvisouly failed to read the seminal work in the field entitled, Detailed Analysis of the Successful Attack Runs by Submarines in the Pacific Theater from 1941 - 1945, authored by Rockin Robbins. :haha: I am reminded of General Marshall who, after receiving a memo for circulation for the top generals, slipped in photo of a naked pin up. No one said a thing. He said that none of them read the memo.

[Armistead]

I'm still stuck on 90 degree. Course as the war goe's on, get's harder when they have radar. If I can and speed allows and it usually doe's I
will get ahead and just track until dark.

I will ID all escorts and look for the greastest weakness in the screen.
At night I will often get close enough for them to sense me or pick me up on radar, then run away. This usually pulls many of the dd's. Even if I have to dive, I'm almost always far enough to go flank and usually leave
the dd's searching 3000 yards behind. If I can stay submerged and attack I will or if I can suface I will and attack where the dd's are missing.

The only silly thing about the game is once you're detected most always they slow way down and start zigging making them easy targets.

One thing I've noticed attacking is within 1500 yards of a dd the second my scope breaches the surface is usually when I'm pinged or spotted. I will often set up my attacks and if they stay on course, I'll shoot by sonar bearings on the attack map, using okane and obvious having info before they get close. Works great. Usually the lead dd has past and then i'll use easy aob.

I just had my best patrol. No refits. I caught a good convoy and then joined in on the battle of Surigao straits...also found the center force the next day, but all out be then.



http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu235/Armistead1424/SH4Img2009-12-06_060922_484.jpg


http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu235/Armistead1424/SH4Img2009-12-06_060930_234.jpg
After I got the Sub and attacked a large convoy, I barely made it to Surig. for the battle..Got 5 in the first Fuso, 3 in the next...Now, I admit the US fleet helped out attacking some of the ships, leaving some CA's dOW that I finished off..About 150K tons.

[Nisgeis]

I'm going down, I've read through what you put again and it sounds like your main problem is not setting the attack up right, because you seem to be losing track of where your targets are. It sounds like that anyway, if you have a look and see you are about to be run over. Have you tried plotting the course and speed of the task force, then close the range to track as fast as possible by sterring directly towards its closing point? This should allow you to plot how far you are from the intercept point at the very least and let you know when to put your scope up.

If the Task Force is only going 16.5 knots, then you can always surface and do an end around, if you are out of position, as long as you keep them well hull down and travel along a parallel course. They won't change course or speed, so are very easy to predict, unlike in real life, where they'd spoil your day with a random zig.

[I'm goin' down]

If the Task Force is only going 16.5 knots, then you can always surface and do an end around, if you are out of position, as long as you keep them well hull down and travel along a parallel course. They won't change course or speed, so are very easy to predict, unlike in real life, where they'd spoil your day with a random zig.

I could have done a better job plotting. I only ploted one ship in the task force, and their were three rows.

As for the second paragraph, I do not understand the first sentence. End around? I know what that means in football, but not in an attack scenario. And "hull down" is beyond my comphrehension. But the first paragraph is very good advice and is appreciated. Let me know about the second paragraph, first sentence please. I can use all the help I can get.

[Nisgeis]

Er, well, I don't know anything about American Football, but I understand that it means the same thing and that's where the term comes from. It means to get ahead of the target and then turn in, so you can intercept the target. Hull Down means that the hull is well down below the horizon, so only the tops of the superstructure is visible, that way they won't be able to see you, as your hull and conningtower will be below the horizon (except in SH4, the horizon doesn't work, the ships just sink into the water instead - round earth, flat sea!). Your radar profile will also be a much smaller area.

Oh yes, and if you can get reliable plots, you can use the TDC's PK unit, which will tell you where everything is, even underwater and will tell you range and everything else. Once you get to a certain point, NOT using the TDC is perhaps more difficult than using it. I always use the TDC. Never leave port without it.

[gutted]

glad to see some captains enjoying my tool. Makes those few long nights of power coding all worth it. hehe.

And yes, it can be used for targets at any angle.. that was the puropse of the program.

but here's a heads up incase you missed it:

I uploaded the final version of the tool a few days ago. It was ready for many weeks ago, but i had intended to add a feature that RR wanted, but never found the time. So instead of sittting on it any longer, i uploaded what i had. The version still shows as 1.3.2 however, as i forgot to increment it before uploading.

It fixes a conversion display bug in the distance chart, and adds the ship length browser to the speed solver.

[I'm goin' down]

Laconic has gone berserk and posted the above thread wherein he attacks two ships simultaneously. Forward tubes launched using TDC (I assume he is using the Easy Aob mod) and aft using the Solution Solver (he does not provide the name of either the mod or the program, but it is pretty obvious). He sinks a BB and Cruiser! That is some serious ass kicking.:yeah:

[Laconic]

Laconic has gone berserk and posted the above thread wherein he attacks two ships simultaneously. Forward tubes launched using TDC (I assume he is using the Easy Aob mod) and aft using the Solution Solver (he does not provide the name of either the mod or the program, but it is pretty obvious). He sinks a BB and Cruiser! That is some serious ass kicking.:yeah:

I have the Easy AOB mod installed, but it's not critical for my AOB solutions in the TDC. I was set up at a right angle, so that when the target passes my 0 bearing I know that its AOB is 90 degrees. From that, it's easy to find the AOB at whatever bearing I'm looking at it...if 0 bearing is 90, 10 bearing is 80, 20 bearing is 70, 30 bearing is 60, and so on. Makes setting up a good AOB a snap, as long as you're at a right angle to the target's course.

And yes, I did use Gutted's fantastic tool to get the shoot bearing for the other target. There's a credit in the video descriptions. Excellent work on that, Gutted!

[Laconic]

After I got the Sub and attacked a large convoy, I barely made it to Surig. for the battle..Got 5 in the first Fuso, 3 in the next...Now, I admit the US fleet helped out attacking some of the ships, leaving some CA's dOW that I finished off..About 150K tons.

Holy goodness, that's a lot of kills...

[Tweety]

That is a very cool solution solver that Laconic show how us how to use. Is there a way to incorporate this into SH 4 UBM. I don't have enough experience in modding, just little things I'm trying to learn. I have 3deditor and photo shop that I have been using to learn.

Any modders that can point me in the right direction

Thanks and happy new year
keep the great mods coming.

Mark

[gutted]

That is a very cool solution solver that Laconic show how us how to use. Is there a way to incorporate this into SH 4 UBM. I don't have enough experience in modding, just little things I'm trying to learn. I have 3deditor and photo shop that I have been using to learn.

Any modders that can point me in the right direction

Thanks and happy new year
keep the great mods coming.

Mark

It's a standalone program i created. It can be used with ANY subsim. Use it on a laptop or ALT-TAB out of the game to use it.

here's a 6 part video of a completely visual attack demonstration with it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTt2GsHDCjw

download it here:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=1358

[I'm goin' down]

gutted....laconic... they are both nuts! See posts 15 and 16 above. A BB and cruiser from the fore and aft tubes in a single and almost simultaneous attack! The inmates are loose and running the asylum!:wah:

[Tweety]

Thank you gutted will check out the video. I have download solution solver. Now i just have to find and sink em.

happy new year everyone