Why do American SubSimmers more often than not.. [Archive]

Aramike

11-30-09, 01:56 AM

..seem to be right of center, even far right of center, politically?

Is it just the nature of the beast, i.e., who might have an interest in military history and simulations?I don't see that. I think its about an equal distribution ideologically.

Besides, think about it: people rarely take note of ideas they agree with, having made that their political landscape. On the other hand, when that landscape of green brush suddenly finds itself amongst blue bushes, those bushes tend to stand out and dominate the landscape, regardless of how prevailant they are.

And finally, do understand that even much of the American political left is far more to the right of your average European.

OneToughHerring

11-30-09, 02:08 AM

..seem to be right of center, even far right of center, politically?

Is it just the nature of the beast, i.e., who might have an interest in military history and simulations?

Well war kind of polarizes opinions. Men tend to think of politics through war. In the US war is a kind of nice and externalised thing, US has never really had warfare on it's soil, or at least not in the modern time if counting civil war and the wars with the native Americans, so their attitude toward war is kind of lighthearted.

PeriscopeDepth

11-30-09, 02:12 AM

On any military sim forum right of center is going to be the norm. All the hippies are out doing whatever it is hippies do. :)

PD

onelifecrisis

11-30-09, 02:40 AM

On any military sim forum right of center is going to be the norm. All the hippies are out doing whatever it is hippies do. :)

PD

Labelling all left-wingers "hippies" (something I see often here) is like labelling all right-wingers "fascists". I think in most cases neither is true. Good point about military sims though.

Also +1 to what Aramike said about the US left-wing being a lot more right-wing than most of Europe.

PeriscopeDepth

11-30-09, 03:01 AM

Labelling all left-wingers "hippies" (something I see often here) is like labelling all right-wingers "fascists". I think in most cases neither is true. Good point about military sims though.

Also +1 to what Aramike said about the US left-wing being a lot more right-wing than most of Europe.

I was being facetious. Probably considered a hippy myself by many of my fellow citizens' standards.

And like you said, I would probably considered a fascist by many of the Europeans here.

The world is a funny place. :D

PD

Torplexed

11-30-09, 04:29 AM

..seem to be right of center, even far right of center, politically?

Is it just the nature of the beast, i.e., who might have an interest in military history and simulations?

I bet 95% of the Americans who post on subsim never display their political stripes being far more interested in the subject of naval games and simulations. The same goes for Europe and other nationalities. Usually, just the most politically outspoken left and right show up in GT.

JU_88

11-30-09, 04:58 AM

I bet 95% of the Americans who post on subsim never display their political stripes being far more interested in the subject of naval games and simulations. The same goes for Europe and other nationalities. Usually, just the most politically outspoken left and right show up in GT.

Yeah I'm with you on that,
I been thinking I will stay out of future political threads on this forum, since my dirty center-left liberal views tend to go down like a lead balloon amongst some of our neo-conservatives friends here. :haha:
Its pointless to argue anyway, Its not like anyone is willing to be educated by anyone where politics are concerned.

Most of us are so stubbon and proud in the politics department, at the end of the day we will believe what we have been conditioned / brought up to believe.
Even if solid evidence is presented that we are somehow how wrong, we will just go in to denial mode in order to defend our views.
Human nature....

meh -Stick to submarines and everything is just fine :D

Torplexed

11-30-09, 05:21 AM

Yeah I'm with you on that,
I been thinking I will stay out of future political threads on this forum, since my dirty center-left liberal views tend to go down like a lead balloon amongst some of our neo-conservatives friends here. :haha:
Its pointless to argue anyway, Its not like anyone is willing to be educated by anyone where politics are concerned.

Most of us are so stubbon and proud in the politics department, at the end of the day we will believe what we have been conditioned / brought up to believe.
Even if solid evidence is presented that we are somehow how wrong, we will just go in to denial mode in order to defend our views.
Human nature....

meh -Stick to submarines and everything is just fine :D

What's funny is that it's sometimes easy to forget how new all of this is. How many of of us were regularly conversing everyday with people on political matters in nations oceans or continents away twenty or thirty years ago? We may find each others opinions jarring at times, but I venture to guess that there is some subtle cross-pollination of ideas and opinions going on as well. Time will tell. ;)

CaptainHaplo

11-30-09, 07:30 AM

Most data available indicates that when it comes to US military members, former members and retirees, the split is about 60% / 15% when asked to identify themselves as Republican / Democrat. Most of this data comes from polled Officers, though anecdotal data (always suspect) puts the number for enlisted at around 50/20.

Overall, the reasoning is fairly straightforward. On average, democrats are seen as "weak" on military spending and related issues. I am not saying this is an accurate view, or innaccurate - only how it is generally viewed. It is statements such as "I voted for it before I voted against it" by Sen. Kerry, as well as historical party positions, that lead to this perspective. Republicans however are seen as willing to spend on average more for the military. Again, historical party stances and votes, as well as individual leaders (such as Reagan) demonstrate why this view is generally accepted.

Just like any other group, if a particular party is more apt to give you a bigger slice of the pie, you are more likely to support them. This is the same logic used by those who pander to illegals, or lobbyists.

Skybird

11-30-09, 08:02 AM

the military shows a traditional trend towards the conservative side of the political spectrum, and to some degree that may see kind of a parallel in the field of military simulations, too, but I would not bet on it. this board had seen 37+ thousand members over the past 10 years, I think - but how many of these do post or did post in GT? A very small fraction only. Thus, the impression you gain from the GT forum, statistically-methodologically is not representative. GT sees an audience were interest in general politics, history, and other non-subsim-related stuff is overrepresented.

Torvald Von Mansee

11-30-09, 08:13 AM

On any military sim forum right of center is going to be the norm. All the hippies are out doing whatever it is hippies do. :)

PD

Probably over at JamBase, posting in their forums (except they're not posting, as they're all high!!!! :har:)

Biggles

11-30-09, 08:20 AM

the military shows a traditional trend towards the conservative side of the political spectrum

Aye, or that what people seem to think. I remember I was labeled as an extreme conservative just because I was extremely interested in history. Don't really see the connection tbh.

SteamWake

11-30-09, 09:00 AM

America as a nation is center right.

AVGWarhawk

11-30-09, 09:33 AM

the military shows a traditional trend towards the conservative side of the political spectrum

99.9% agree. :yeah: Perhaps it follows suit with simulation games that are based around military strategy.

Rilder

11-30-09, 11:01 AM

I for one refuse to align my self to any political party.

Méo

11-30-09, 11:01 AM

Well war kind of polarizes opinions. Men tend to think of politics through war. In the US war is a kind of nice and externalised thing

Agree, and the most pathetic thing is that those who take the decision to go to war never really tasted it... all they got is a pretty comfortable point of view. :damn:

IMHO war is only cool on pc.

US has never really had warfare on it's soil, or at least not in the modern time if counting civil war and the wars with the native Americans, so their attitude toward war is kind of lighthearted.

On the other hand, here in Canada we never really had war on our soil neither and we're mostly anti-war. So i guess it's part of their culture. :hmmm:

Skybird

11-30-09, 11:13 AM

Canada is not strong enough to have anything to win by waging wars. That's different with the US (see that after WWII the US nbever launched a war aginst an enemyassumed to be of equal military potency). Also, the US was/is driven by a missionising spirit to turn the rest of mankind into something functioning by the american model. the British empire once behaved like that, too. although in the end it was not about civilising all mankind by British standards, but about: wealth, economic dominance, and power.

If your only tool is a hammer, you tend to see every challenge or problem as a nail.

FIREWALL

11-30-09, 11:36 AM

Méo

11-30-09, 11:42 AM

Canada is not strong enough to have anything to win by waging wars.

I was talking about the canadian people not the about the country. But i 100% agree with the rest of your post.

SteamWake

11-30-09, 11:56 AM

They stay in GT while occasionally going to a sim thread to manuver it into a political discussion.

I dont recall seeing any of that :hmmm:

FIREWALL

11-30-09, 12:02 PM

I dont recall seeing any of that :hmmm:

Yeah Right. :har:

Shearwater

11-30-09, 01:21 PM

I don't see that. I think its about an equal distribution ideologically.

Besides, think about it: people rarely take note of ideas they agree with, having made that their political landscape. On the other hand, when that landscape of green brush suddenly finds itself amongst blue bushes, those bushes tend to stand out and dominate the landscape, regardless of how prevailant they are.

And finally, do understand that even much of the American political left is far more to the right of your average European.

I think that sums it up.
I'd like to add: Maybe it has to do with the fact that a lot of political threads here are criticising government policy, and the current POTUS just happens to be from the political left (at least by American standards, as far as I can tell from my European perspective). To parahrase Aramike in a way: you're much more likely to start a thread about something you don't like than vice versa.
I haven't been on this site during the Bush years, but I can imagine that the rants were just about as frequent.

frau kaleun

11-30-09, 01:37 PM

I for one refuse to align my self to any political party.

To paraphrase Will Rogers, I'm not a member of any organized political party either.

(wait for it...)

I'm a Democrat.

:D

Oberon

11-30-09, 02:58 PM

http://instantrimshot.com/

GoldenRivet

11-30-09, 03:24 PM

You know... i really think it is pretty equally spread out.

I consider myself a right winger

but...

my views

1. I dont want to go to work all day long and pay a boat load of taxes into "welfare" or health care for everyone else. You work for your own health care and welfare as far as im concerned.

2. I want the government to stay out of my firearms... it should be none of their business what i have in my closet.

thats really about it.

Sailor Steve

11-30-09, 04:28 PM

I was one of those hippies...then I joined the navy and went to fight a war...then I protested against that same war...then I laughed at the environmentalists of my day...then I fought for the environment...now I consider myself a Demican Republicrat God-Fearing Atheist Communist Fascist Socialist Libertarian. My views on abortion and gay rights get me labelled a Flaming Liberal, but my opinions on guns and the economy make me a Knee-jerk Conservative. Rush would call me a fence-sitter, but I'm much nearer the right-left-middle than I am to the middle-left-right.

Oh, I don't take drugs anymore (except for the prescription ones, and those only because my doctor makes me), but I am still a hippie - or at least I look like one this week.

JU_88

11-30-09, 05:19 PM

Platapus

11-30-09, 06:16 PM

I like to refer to myself as a "Recovering Republican"

One of the problems with being a moderate is that there are no extremes. :nope:

How can I call myself a Far-Moderate? That just doesn't make any sense. :D

The only thing we have is Moderate Moderate. But damn it, I am an extreme moderate and I demand a title like the rest of the political nut cases! :rock:

August

11-30-09, 06:21 PM

I'm just an American and reject such labeling.

JU_88

11-30-09, 06:30 PM

I'm just an American and reject such labeling.

Your quite right, and you know what? I belive i personally have some what labled you in a recent GT thread,
It was wrong for me to do so - and I believe I owe you an apology for that.:oops:

Shearwater

11-30-09, 06:31 PM

I consider myself a Demican Republicrat God-Fearing Atheist Communist Fascist Socialist Libertarian.

Steve's a Commie Nazi :o!

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/2153/commienazis.jpg

I KNEW IT :shifty: ...

Oberon

11-30-09, 06:36 PM

What was that quote:

Sam Donaldson: "Mr. President, in talking about the continuing recession tonight, you have blamed mistakes in the past and you have blamed the Congress. Does any of the blame belong to you?"
Ronald Reagan: "Yes because for many years I was a Democrat."

I like the idea of an extreme-Moderate...I think we should moderately lobby for the creation of this category.

And Steve...that post was priceless :yeah:

Oberon

11-30-09, 06:39 PM

Actually...I just found one more quote that is actually better than the one before:

Ronald Reagan: "You and I are told increasingly we have to choose between a left or right. Well I'd like to suggest there is no such thing as a left or right. There's only an up or down: man's old -- old-aged dream, the ultimate in individual freedom consistent with law and order, or down to the ant heap of totalitarianism. And regardless of their sincerity, their humanitarian motives, those who would trade our freedom for security have embarked on this downward course."

:salute:

August

11-30-09, 07:39 PM

Your quite right, and you know what? I belive i personally have some what labled you in a recent GT thread,
It was wrong for me to do so - and I believe I owe you an apology for that.:oops:

No you don't. All we have to go by is the information at hand.

Sailor Steve

11-30-09, 11:22 PM

The only thing we have is Moderate Moderate. But damn it, I am an extreme moderate and I demand a title like the rest of the political nut cases! :rock:
"All things should be taken in moderation - especially moderation!"
- I can't find who said it, but I've heard it all my life

Ducimus

11-30-09, 11:56 PM

Most data available indicates that when it comes to US military members, former members and retirees, the split is about 60% / 15% when asked to identify themselves as Republican / Democrat. Most of this data comes from polled Officers, though anecdotal data (always suspect) puts the number for enlisted at around 50/20.

Before my enlistment, and during my first year in service, I was a gung-ho NeoCon and something of a gun nut. Couldn't wait to own all these bad ass rifles and pistols i always wanted, go overseas, kick ass and take names. Several years, and a few unpleasant visits to other countries later, i found myself sitting right smack in the center, equally disgusted of both poltiical parties, a desire of Isolationism, and i don't particularly care to own a sh**pot of guns anymore.

Remember that joke about "Patton for president" (http://www.mrgriff.com/Patton.htm)? How i wish that were true.

Sailor Steve

12-01-09, 12:52 AM

Remember that joke about "Patton for president" (http://www.mrgriff.com/Patton.htm)? How i wish that were true.
Never heard that one. I like it!:salute:

geetrue

12-01-09, 01:11 AM

It's really simple. :yep: SubSim GT is a political Soapbox with a large audience for some, that can't be heard anywhere else.

They stay in GT while occasionally going to a sim thread to manuver it into a political discussion.

When SH5 is released GT will be a ghost town as it was when SH4 was released.

GT is fellowship with like minded people that like to out think AI or lan partners in submarine simulations WWII German and USA diesel boats to LA class SSN's.

It's a place where you can take a break and read another captains mind in what and how he thinks ... a very good cross section of an international audience visit here.

A place where you can sharpen your wits, make your point and move on or stand and fight like a mule.

I like it here ... course I don't have to read anything that would spoil my dinner ... :cool:

Blacklight

12-01-09, 02:35 AM

You know... i really think it is pretty equally spread out.

I certainly don't see it that way. I think us lefty liberal types are definitely in the minority here. Either that or the "Righties" are just more vocal in these forums than the lefties.
Hasn't a poll been done in the past to determine the percentages ?

onelifecrisis

12-01-09, 03:02 AM

Remember that joke about "Patton for president" (http://www.mrgriff.com/Patton.htm)? How i wish that were true.

Hmmm. From the article...

Let me start by saying that effective immediately, foreign aid to those nations on List 2 ceases immediately and indefinitely. The money saved during the first year alone will pretty much pay for the costs of the Iraqi war.

The American people are no longer going to pour money into third world hell-holes and watch those government leaders grow fat on corruption. Need help with a famine? Wrestling with an epidemic? Call France.

Actually those first year savings would barely scratch the surface of the cost of the Iraq war. Is that the joke? Maybe I'm just not getting it cos I'm not American. :hmmm:

JU_88

12-01-09, 06:00 AM

Before my enlistment, and during my first year in service, I was a gung-ho NeoCon and something of a gun nut. Couldn't wait to own all these bad ass rifles and pistols i always wanted, go overseas, kick ass and take names. Several years, and a few unpleasant visits to other countries later, i found myself sitting right smack in the center, equally disgusted of both poltiical parties, a desire of Isolationism, and i don't particularly care to own a sh**pot of guns anymore.

Remember that joke about "Patton for president" (http://www.mrgriff.com/Patton.htm)? How i wish that were true.

Have to say I somewhat given up on Politicians too.
Party (A) Will say anything to get in to power, then later blame all their failures on Party (B) - the previous govenment
.....repeat for eternity

They are so predictable, its become boring.

onelifecrisis

12-01-09, 06:22 AM

Have to say I somewhat given up on Politicians too.
Party (A) Will say anything to get in to power, then later blame all their failures on Party (B) - the previous govenment
.....repeat for eternity

They are so predictable, its become boring.

I don't rest my hopes on politicians, but rather on the "political system" or whatever you want to call it.

Tactical voting FTW! :yeah:

Méo

12-01-09, 12:16 PM

IMHO, too many people base their political views on common sense rather than deep reflection which can oftenly be misleading.

Life is not just as simple as it seems...

Ducimus

12-01-09, 03:56 PM

Hmmm. From the article...

Actually those first year savings would barely scratch the surface of the cost of the Iraq war. Is that the joke? Maybe I'm just not getting it cos I'm not American. :hmmm:

That article is several years old. I don't think we were in Iraq for very long at the time it was written.

onelifecrisis

12-02-09, 02:42 AM

That article is several years old. I don't think we were in Iraq for very long at the time it was written.

The Iraq war has so far cost the US 25 times its total annual foreign aid contribution. Lets say the nations on list 2 comprise half of the latter, in which case that's 50 times. Are you saying the article was written 49 years ago? :hmmm:

Jimbuna

12-02-09, 07:22 AM

I don't rest my hopes on politicians, but rather on the "political system" or whatever you want to call it.

Tactical voting FTW! :yeah:

Billy Connolly: "Don't vote, it only encourages the bas*ards"

onelifecrisis

12-02-09, 08:07 AM

Billy Connolly: "Don't vote, it only encourages the bas*ards"

:haha:

Platapus

12-02-09, 06:21 PM

Just remember, you can lead a man to congress
But you can't make him think.

FIREWALL

12-02-09, 07:52 PM

Hmmm. From the article...
Is that the joke? Maybe I'm just not getting it cos I'm not American. :hmmm:

:har:

August

12-02-09, 08:33 PM

CaptainHaplo

12-02-09, 11:41 PM

Platypus - thats a good one! :yeah:

Aramike

12-03-09, 12:47 AM

The Iraq war has so far cost the US 25 times its total annual foreign aid contribution. Lets say the nations on list 2 comprise half of the latter, in which case that's 50 times. Are you saying the article was written 49 years ago? :hmmm:What August said.

Besides, what makes you think that the rest of the world is ENTITLED to our "foreign aid"?

Last I checked, we can do whatever the hell we want to with our money. If the rest of the world is seeing the hard-earned dollars of Americans, it should be grateful - DESPITE what THEY think our spending should be.

onelifecrisis

12-03-09, 07:53 AM

If there's something wrong with my adding up (wouldn't be the first time) then pointing out where the mistake is might be more helpful than sarcasm.

Last I checked, we can do whatever the hell we want to with our money.

I never said otherwise. I just think its a shame when you delude yourselves that you (a) are doing things with it which you in fact are not, and (b) could do things with it which you in fact could not.

August

12-03-09, 08:21 AM

I just think its a shame when you delude yourselves that you (a) are doing things with it which you in fact are not, and (b) could do things with it which you in fact could not.

I'd say that depends on (a) what we are doing with it and (b) what we should be doing with it.

There are many of us that feel this money could be better spent at home on our own people.

lambda*sqrt(u*x)

12-03-09, 08:57 AM

As a colleague at work said to me: "You're the only pacifist I know who owns guns and always plays combat simulations!"

...and I'm also vegetarian *hrhr*

onelifecrisis

12-03-09, 09:04 AM

There are many of us that feel this money could be better spent at home on our own people.

Again, I never said otherwise. I'm just saying don't kid yourselves that your 0.2% foreign aid contribution could be used to fund your war. It wouldn't.

AVGWarhawk

12-03-09, 09:09 AM

Your welcome OLC! :har:

Now you need this:

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q62/avgwarhawk/knuppel2.gif

The money we spend on foriegn issues is all for the oil. :03:

August

12-03-09, 09:11 AM

Again, I never said otherwise. I'm just saying don't kid yourselves that your 0.2% foreign aid contribution could be used to fund your war. It wouldn't.

Well maybe not totally, but imo it would still be much better spent here at home instead of giving it to ungrateful foreigners, and I include the money we give to the UN in that.

frau kaleun

12-03-09, 09:18 AM

As a colleague at work said to me: "You're the only pacifist I know who owns guns and always plays combat simulations!"

As John Mellencamp once said, "Just because I'm against the war don't mean I won't kick your ass."

:D

onelifecrisis

12-03-09, 09:25 AM

Your welcome OLC! :har:
:DL

Now you need this:

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q62/avgwarhawk/knuppel2.gif
I do? :o

AVGWarhawk

12-03-09, 09:28 AM

:DL

I do? :o

No, for your sig man! Put them together in your sig. :D You certainly do not need a beating. The GT forums are here for that if you do need a beating :up:

onelifecrisis

12-03-09, 09:30 AM

No, for your sig man! Put them together in your sig. :D You certainly do not need a beating. The GT forums are here for that if you do need a beating :up:

Oh, lol. Nooo, I wouldn't want that in my sig... though I'm tempted to send it in a PM to... no! No! Bad OLC! :rotfl2:

AVGWarhawk

12-03-09, 09:36 AM

:har:

Don't take the GT forums to seriously. It will only make you lose your hair prematurely. :03:

mjs80

12-04-09, 12:14 AM

I'm not sure of my political leaning i have just what i need: 30.06 and 12 gauge and dogs, a dachshund and two german pointers for hunting. i don't need full automatic weapons.. but i'm a leftie still :D

CaptainHaplo

12-04-09, 07:18 AM

:har:

Don't take the GT forums to seriously. It will only make you lose your hair prematurely. :03:

And I have been blaming it on the kids all these years!

Jimbuna

12-04-09, 01:35 PM

http://onlyfunnyjokes.com/bestoftheweb/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/image021.jpg

Cohaagen

12-04-09, 02:53 PM

I don't think it's true to say that many US Subsimmers are right-wing - barely-disguised chauvinism would be a better description. Loving the sound of your own voice might also have something to do with it. Then again, there are so few places to discuss US politics on the internet, aren't there?

More importantly, I think Skybird and August should get married and have a politically ambiguous baby. Aramike and Steamwake could be stand-by sperm donors. Neal Stevens to read the vows.

No smart-ass speeches at the reception, though - politics is a serious business.

gutted

12-04-09, 05:31 PM

On any military sim forum right of center is going to be the norm. All the hippies are out doing whatever it is hippies do. :)

PD

yup, go to world war 2 online's off topic and you'll find the same thing.

i think the reason is that most left wing liberals really aren't into history or wargames.

it's just an ideological difference i guess.

Torvald Von Mansee

12-05-09, 01:34 AM

As a colleague at work said to me: "You're the only pacifist I know who owns guns and always plays combat simulations!"

...and I'm also vegetarian *hrhr*

That's disturbing, as I'm the same. Well, except I'm not quite a pacifist (really, violence is wonderfully decisive tool), but I DO have guns and play combat sims and am a vegetarian.

Torvald Von Mansee

12-05-09, 01:37 AM

gdogghenrikson

12-13-09, 07:14 AM

well I took a test and got this
http://www.politicalcompass.org/facebook/pcgraphpng.php?ec=-5.12&soc=-3.90

gdogghenrikson

12-13-09, 07:15 AM

oops the test is found here

http://www.politicalcompass.org/test

Onkel Neal

12-13-09, 10:59 AM

More importantly, I think Skybird and August should get married and have a politically ambiguous baby. Aramike and Steamwake could be stand-by sperm donors. Neal Stevens to read the vows.

Pheww! Got out of that one clean. :timeout:

Sailor Steve

12-13-09, 03:25 PM

well I took a test and got this
We've had that test here many times, the most recent being only a month or so ago. I'm pretty near perfect.:rotfl2:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a325/SailorSteve/pcgraphpng-1.png?t=1260735857