Winter War 70th anniversary

[Happy Times]

The 70th anniversary of the start of the Winter War is being commemorated in 2009.

"It began with a Soviet offensive on 30 November 1939, three months after the German invasion of Poland and the start of World War II, and ended on 13 March 1940 with the Moscow Peace Treaty. The League of Nations deemed the attack illegal and expelled the Soviet Union on 14 December 1939."

Winter War Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War

Telegrams from each day of the Winter War
http://www.mil.fi/perustietoa/talvisota_eng/

The Battles of the Winter War
http://www.winterwar.com/mainpage.htm





Order of the Commander-in-Chief N 1


Commander-in-Chief headquarters
December 1, 1939

In 30.11.1939 the President of the Republic has appointed me the Commander-in-Chief of the Finnish Armed Forces.

The brave soldiers of Finland!

I am starting the execution of my duties in the moment when our centuries-old enemy has attacked our country again. The trust to the leader is the first condition of the success. You know me and I know You and I believe that each of You is ready to fulfil his duty even by the cost of his life.

This war is nothing else than continuation of our Liberation War and its final act.

We shall fight to protect our homes, our religion and our country.


Mannerheim.



Order of the Commander-in-Chief N 34
Commander-in-Chief headquarters
March 14, 1940

Soldiers of the glorious Finnish army!

Peace has been concluded between our country and the Soviet Union, an exacting peace which has ceded to Soviet Russia nearly every battlefield on which you have shed your blood on behalf of everything we hold dear and sacred.

You did not want war; you loved peace, work and progress; but you were forced into a struggle in which you have done great deeds, deeds that will shine for centuries in the pages of history.

More than fifteen thousand of you who took the field will never again see your homes, and how many those are who have lost for ever their ability to work. But you have also dealt hard blows, and if two hundred thousand of our enemies now lie on the snowdrifts, gazing with broken eyes at our starry sky, the fault is not yours. You did not hate them or wish them evil; you merely followed the stern law of war: kill or be killed.

Soldiers: I have fought on many battlefields, but never have I seen your like as warriors. I am as proud of you as though you were my own children; l am as proud of the man from the Northern fells as of the son of Ostrobothnia's plains, of the Carelian forests, the hills of Savo, the fertile fields of Häme and Satakunta, the leafy copses of Uusimaa and Varsinais-Suomi. I am as proud of the sacrifice tendered by the child of a lowly cottage as of those of the wealthy.

I thank all of you, officers, non-commissioned officers and men, but I wish specially to stress the self-sacrificing valour of our officers of the reserve, their sense of duty and the cleverness with which they have fulfilled a task that was not originally theirs. Thus theirs has been the greatest sacrifice in this war in proportion to their numbers, but it was made joyfully and with an unflinching devotion to duty.

I thank the Staff Officers for their skill and untiring labours, and finally I thank my own closest assistants, my Chief Commanders, the Army Corps Commanders and the Divisional Commanders who have often transformed the impossible into the possible.

I thank the Finnish Army in all its branches, which in noble competition have done heroic deeds since the first day of the war. I thank the Army for the courage with which it has faced an overwhelming superior enemy equipped in part with hitherto unknown weapons, and for the stubbornness with which it held on to every inch of our soil. The destruction of over 1,500 Russian tanks and over 700 enemy aircraft speaks of deeds of heroism that were often carried out by single individuals.

With joy and pride my thoughts dwell on the Lottas of Finland - their spirit of self-sacrifice and untiring work in many fields, work which has liberated thousands of men for the fighting line. Their noble spirit has spurred on and supported the Army, whose undivided gratitude and respect they have achieved.

Posts of honour have also been those of the thousands of workers who, often as volunteers and during air-raids, have worked beside their machine for the Army's needs, or laboured unflinchingly under fire, strengthening our positions. On behalf of the Fatherland, I thank them.

In spite of all bravery and spirit of sacrifice, the Government has been compelled to conclude peace on severe terms, which however are explicable. Our Army was small and its reserves and cadres inadequate. We were not prepared for war with a Great Power. While our brave soldiers were defending our frontiers we had by insuperable efforts to procure what we lacked. We had to construct lines of defence where there were none. We had to try to obtain help, which failed to come. We had to find arms and equipment at a time when all the nations were feverishly arming against the storm which sweeps over the world. Your heroic deeds have aroused the admiration of the world, but after three and a half months of war we are still almost alone. We have not obtained more foreign help than two reinforced battalions equipped with artillery and aircraft for our fronts, where our own men, fighting day and night without the possibility of being relieved, have had to meet the attacks of ever fresh enemy forces, straining their physical and moral powers beyond all limits.

When some day the history of this war is written, the world will learn of your efforts!

Without the ready help in arms and equipment which Sweden and the Western Powers have given us, our struggle up to this date would have been inconceivable against the countless guns, tanks and aircraft of the enemy.

Unfortunately, the valuable promise of assistance which the Western Powers have given us, could not be realised when our neighbours, concerned for their own security, refused the right of transit for troops.

After sixteen weeks of bloody battle with no rest by day or by night, our Army still stands unconquered before an enemy which in spite of terrible losses has grown in numbers; nor has our home front, where countless air-raids have spread death and terror among women and children, ever wavered. Burned cities and ruined villages far behind the front, as far even as our western border, are the visible proofs of the nation's sufferings during the past months.

Our fate is hard, now that we are compelled to give up to an alien race, a race with a life philosophy and moral values different from ours, land which for centuries we have cultivated in sweat and labour. Yet, we must put our shoulders to the wheel, in order that we may prepare on the soil left to us a home for those rendered homeless and an improved livelihood for all, and as before we must be ready to defend our diminished Fatherland with the same resolution and the same fire with which we defended our undivided Fatherland.

We are proudly conscious of the historic duty which we shall continue to fulfil; the defence of that Western civilisation which has been our heritage for centuries, but we know also that we have paid to the very last penny any debt we may have owed the West.


Mannerheim

[Stealth Hunter]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_9cHkMILP4_A/Su8p3GFJJOI/AAAAAAAABHc/yywQlkVuUD4/s800/fdccax.jpg

[OneToughHerring]

Yea well, why did Stalin send Ukrainian etc. troops unsuited to winter warfare in summer gear in a suicidal frontal march which wasn't even an attack. Usually when attacking there should be a 10/1 superiority in numbers, given those odds the results weren't that amazing.

And once the interim peace was achieved why did the Finns start the Continuation war with the general intent of prolonging World War 2.

[Biggles]

http://www.christiangunther.se/blogg/wp-content/uploads/699450.jpg
:yep:

[Biggles]

Woops, double post sorry...

[Biggles]

Christ, triple post! Not my day today:shifty:

[Dowly]

And once the interim peace was achieved why did the Finns start the Continuation war with the general intent of prolonging World War 2.

So... what happened to the russian bombing raids and artillery attacks from Hanko "aimed at german targets" on June 22 and June 25? Or to the fact that Finland sent numerous telegrams to Moscow on June 22 saying we are to remain neutral after Russian bombers attacked finnish shipping, which went unanswered and ultimately lead to Moscow cutting communications with Helsinki? :hmmm:

[Jimbuna]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_9cHkMILP4_A/Su8p3GFJJOI/AAAAAAAABHc/yywQlkVuUD4/s800/fdccax.jpg

Testimony to how well the Finnish forces performed. :salute:

[Raptor1]

Actually, I believe the casualty figures in that picture are quite a bit higher than reality.

[Torplexed]

Hey ya Soviet basterds! Marshal Mannerheim says; "Merry Christmas!" :)

http://www.warchat.org/pictures/winter_war.jpg

[Kptlt. Neuerburg]

There is only on word that can discribe the Finnish Armed Forces during the Winter War. SISU!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-m4tALfqyME
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Raate_road http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ror8ZtwGhYQ&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4LK2nIqGTM&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnjL0zx2r-8&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSlAuPOUew4&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbndUSHL9A0&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pi3hq8MDlI&feature=fvw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pi3hq8MDlI&feature=fvw
And some photos from the Finnlanda House in West Palm Beach, Florida of which my grandfather is president.
http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/5572/picture017r.jpg
http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/326/picture019.jpg
http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/482/picture019t.jpg
http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/971/picture020u.jpg
http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/1720/picture022bt.jpg
http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/4408/picture021b.jpg

[Dowly]

Actually, I believe the casualty figures in that picture are quite a bit higher than reality.

There isnt any official figures for russian casualties. An russian research team went thru every available documents and came up with 126 875 KIA and 265 000 wounded. Mannerheim gives an approximate number based on the number of divisions destroyed to be ~200 000 in his memoirs.

[Raptor1]

There isnt any official figures for russian casualties. An russian research team went thru every available documents and came up with 126 875 KIA and 265 000 wounded. Mannerheim gives an approximate number based on the number of divisions destroyed to be ~200 000 in his memoirs.

The 'official' figure from the Soviet government was 48,745 dead, which is, of course, nonsense.

100,000-200,000 would be a realistic estimate. That picture gives a total of over 600,000 Soviet dead and missing, which I do believe is far from any logical estimate.

[Dowly]

@Raptor

Yes, 600k is way too high. :yep:

Yea well, why did Stalin send Ukrainian etc. troops unsuited to winter warfare in summer gear in a suicidal frontal march which wasn't even an attack. Usually when attacking there should be a 10/1 superiority in numbers, given those odds the results weren't that amazing.

I dont know what you have been reading, but I'd recommend to use a different source in the future. :03:

The 44. division was sent to reinforce the 163. division that was engaging Finnish troops around Suomussalmi. The 44. was reinforced from numerous other divisions that were in the area and they though it would be a joyride to the Suomussalmi area and from there they'd push all the way to Oulu (44. div had all kinds of parade stuff with them, instruments, craploads of condoms etc). But in reality, around the time the 44. crossed the border, the 163. was living it's final moments, surrounded and cut off. Because of this, the russians though finns to be much farther to the west than they actually were and thus they didnt move accordingly through the Raate road, but instead they though they were safe.

What else the russians didnt know was that finns had wired their own comms to the russian's and could listen to every communications that was going on between the russian forces.

And lastly, the weather was mild in the opening days of January, it only got worse when the battle between finns and the 44. division had already started. (January 3 saw the temperature drop to -17C, when on the January 4 it had suddenly dropped to -37C)

[OneToughHerring]

Yes...? I don't exactly know what you're trying to say with that first answer about Hanko.

edit. Yea ok now I get it, you're trying to lay the blame about Finns marching off to build a 'Greater Finland' on the things you mentioned. I get it now.

As for the second one, what was decisive was the way the Soviets attacked, with either completely faulty info or a deliberate slaughter orchestrated by Joseph S. Once the Soviets got their act together it was a different deal although by then the focus of the war had changed. Finland was a kind of sideshow in WW 2. :-?

Kptlt. Hellmut Neuerburg,

interesting stuff.

[Raptor1]

Yes...? I don't exactly know what you're trying to say with that first answer about Hanko.

He means that Finland did not start the Continuation War. The Soviets launched large-scale bombing operations on June 25th, followed by artillery bombardment, which they claimed was against German targets only but in fact only hit Finnish targets. The Finnish parliment was just about to reaffirm Finland's neutrality on the same day but the Soviet bombing changed that decision.

[Letum]

Kptlt. Hellmut Neuerbur (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/member.php?u=230962):
Those Images are far to big for the forum. Could you link them instead please?


Interesting history Finland has.
Always between rocks and hard places.

[Kptlt. Neuerburg]

Kptlt. Hellmut Neuerbur (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/member.php?u=230962):
Those Images are far to big for the forum. Could you link them instead please?


Interesting history Finland has.
Always between rocks and hard places. Ok I resized the photos.
And its very true that Finland has had a long and difficult history, considering that both its Sweden and Russia where fomer owners of Finland. Finnish History in a nutshell: Finland was a part of the Swedish Empire. During the 18th Century two wars between Sweden and Russia, Finland was occupied twice by Russia the first time from 1714 to 1721 and again from 1742 to 1743. Then from 1809 to 1918 Finland was a Grand Duchy of the Russian Empire. Then in 1939 Russia attacked Finland in what is now know as the Winter War. Then after a year of peace with Russia, they attacked Finland a second time in 1941-44 during the Continuation War. At the end of the Continuation War Finland and Russia where at peace, but then Finland went to war to remove any German forces still in Finland which is know as the Lapland War which lasted from 1944 to 1945. What I find really intersting is just the amount of support that Finland recived in its wars agianst Russia not only from other Scandinavina Counties but from Germany,England, The United States and many others.:salute:

[Snestorm]

Kptlt. Hellmut Neuerbur (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/member.php?u=230962):


Interesting history Finland has.
Always between rocks and hard places.

Right where the swedes put it.

[Happy Times]

Yea well, why did Stalin send Ukrainian etc. troops unsuited to winter warfare in summer gear in a suicidal frontal march which wasn't even an attack. Usually when attacking there should be a 10/1 superiority in numbers, given those odds the results weren't that amazing.

Most of those troops where from northern parts of Russia and equipped accordingly, some even from Siberia. For exsample the Dolin ski brigade that was complitely annihilated.

I think 1/3 is a more common ratio mentioned in attack, wich the russian exceeded in most places. They had the 1/10 ration and even more in most weapons. Like with circa 7000 tanks and 4000 airplanes still in the end of the war against Finland.

It really makes you rather pathetic when you say, "given those odds the results weren't that amazing".

On 11/30/1939 These forces were in the Leningrad Military District:

14th Army- based at Murmansk/Kandalaksha (hqs from 33rd RC)
14th, 52nd Rifle, and 104th Mt. Rifle Divisions

9th Army- 47th RC- 122nd, 163rd Rifle Divisions
Special RC- 54th Mt. Rifle Division

8th Army- 1st RC- 139th, 155th Rifle Divisions
56th RC- 18th, 56th, 168th Rifle Divisions
In Reserve- 75th Rifle Division

7th Army- 50th RC- 90th, 142nd Rifle Divisions
35th Tank Brigade
19th RC- 24th, 43rd, 70th Rifle Divisions
40th Tank Brigade
10th TC- 1st, 13th Tank Brigades
15th Mot. Rifle Brigade
In Reserve- 49th, 123rd, 138th, 150th Rifle Divisions
20th Tank Brigade

Other Forces in LMD- 65th RC- on Estonian border Narva/Pskov
11th, 16th Rifle Divisions
88th Rifle Division- at Arkhangelsk


These are the Divisions that came for the War, from other MD's

52nd RD- from Belorussian MD
122nd RD- from Belorussian MD
163rd RD- from Moscow MD
139th RD- from Belorussia MD
155th RD- from Kalinin MD
138th RD- from Kiev MD
150th RD- from Belorussia MD

Not yet mentioned the 44th RD is on it's way from Kiev MD

Also these Divisions had just been created in the Fall of 1939

88th RD- in Leningrad MD
104th Mt. RD- in Leningrad MD
168th RD- in Leningrad MD
123rd RD- in Kalinin MD, and just moved to LMD
142nd RD- in Kalinin MD, and just moved to LMD

RKKA divisions added during the Winter War.

During 12/1939- 136th Rd. from Moscow MD
4th Rd. from Byelorussian MD
164th Rd. from Kalinin MD
34th Tank Br.
10th Rifle Corps HQs from Byelorussian MD
13th Army HQs from Leningrad MD
47th, 49th, 116th, 136th, 311th Artillery Rgts.

During 1/1940- 84th Mot. Rd. from Moscow MD
113th Rd. from Byelorussian MD
80th Rd. from Kiev MD
62nd Rd. from Kiev MD
50th Rd. from Byelorussian MD
17th Mot. Rd. from Moscow MD
8th Rd. from Byelorussian MD
60th Rd. from Kiev MD
11th Rd. from Leningrad MD
168th, 375th, 495th Artillery Rgts.
8th Rifle Corps HQs from Odessa MD
15th Rifle Corps HQs from Kiev MD
23rd Rifle Corps HQs from Byelorussian MD
28th Cavalry Rgt.

During 2/1940- 95th Mot. Rd. from Odessa MD
7th Rd. from Kiev MD
51st Rd. from Odessa MD
86th Mot. Rd. from Volga MD
42nd Mot. Rd. from Leningrad MD
173rd Rd. from Volga MD
25th Mot/Cavalry Division from Leningrad MD
37th Mot. Rd. from Siberian MD
87th Rd. from Kiev MD
97th Rd. from Kiev MD
128th Rd. from Ural MD






And once the interim peace was achieved why did the Finns start the Continuation war with the general intent of prolonging World War 2.

1941 the attacker was still USSR and the general intent of Finland was to get back what was stolen.

It was USSR that started the WW2 with the general intent to invade Europe and the world.

[Happy Times]

Ok I resized the photos.
And its very true that Finland has had a long and difficult history, considering that both its Sweden and Russia where fomer owners of Finland. Finnish History in a nutshell: Finland was a part of the Swedish Empire. During the 18th Century two wars between Sweden and Russia, Finland was occupied twice by Russia the first time from 1714 to 1721 and again from 1742 to 1743. Then from 1809 to 1918 Finland was a Grand Duchy of the Russian Empire. Then in 1939 Russia attacked Finland in what is now know as the Winter War. Then after a year of peace with Russia, they attacked Finland a second time in 1941-44 during the Continuation War. At the end of the Continuation War Finland and Russia where at peace, but then Finland went to war to remove any German forces still in Finland which is know as the Lapland War which lasted from 1944 to 1945. What I find really intersting is just the amount of support that Finland recived in its wars agianst Russia not only from other Scandinavina Counties but from Germany,England, The United States and many others.:salute:

Actually there have been tens of wars against Russia over the past thousand years. Finlands population has sometimes halfed because of these invasions.
The century that Finland has been officially part of Russia, 1809-1917, was achieved by granting autonomy to Finland. In short, his pact was broken from the Russian side and finally led to the proclamation of Finlands independence and the War of Indepedence.

[OneToughHerring]

Most of those troops where from northern parts of Russia and equipped accordingly, some even from Siberia. For exsample the Dolin ski brigade that was complitely annihilated.

And yet when the Soviets got their military in shape the situation changed considerably. Also, the average soldiers weren't interested in fighting against Finland, hence partly the low morale of the troops. Finns on the other hand deduce this to about the inferiority of the Soviets.

Personally I can't see anything to be proud about being the ally of the biggest war criminal of recorded history.

I think 1/3 is a more common ratio mentioned in attack, wich the russian exceeded in most places. They had the 1/10 ration and even more in most weapons. Like with circa 7000 tanks and 4000 airplanes still in the end of the war against Finland.

It really makes you rather pathetic when you say, "given those odds the results weren't that amazing".Yea because they weren't. When the Soviets had a genuine interest in achieving a goal like, for example, winning the World War, they achieved it. A sideshow like the wars against Finland weren't really that important and served more as a kind of prelude to the real fighting which was to come.

I think if anything the wars that Finland fought against the Soviets only served to keep the World War going on longer then necessary keeping the Holocaust and all the other needles bloodshed continuing longer then necessary. And Finland had it's own concentration camps where Soviet civilians perished by the thousands.

1941 the attacker was still USSR Nope.

and the general intent of Finland was to get back what was stolen. With the help of Nazi-Germany Finland wanted to build a Greater Finland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Finland). Didn't work out.

It was USSR that started the WW2 with the general intent to invade Europe and the world.lolwat?

[Dowly]

OTH, you're lack of knowledge of your own country's history will amaze the generations to come.

PS. I see you still havent taken my advice to consider changing your sources. Please do it as soon as possible.

[Happy Times]

And yet when the Soviets got their military in shape the situation changed considerably. Also, the average soldiers weren't interested in fighting against Finland, hence partly the low morale of the troops. Finns on the other hand deduce this to about the inferiority of the Soviets.

Your cathing straws.
This is getting ridiculous, you really have to be indoctrinated not to see the inferiority of the Soviets in this war.
Or the whole system actually, compared to western democracy, they ultimately lost.

Personally I can't see anything to be proud about being the ally of the biggest war criminal of recorded history.

That would be who?

When the Soviets had a genuine interest in achieving a goal like, for example, winning the World War, they achieved it. A sideshow like the wars against Finland weren't really that important and served more as a kind of prelude to the real fighting which was to come.

So it was a only a clever strategy to loose for a few years and need support from allies to start winning later.
And great deception to deploy most of its armed forces against Finland to hide how it wasnt very important.
:hmmm:

I think if anything the wars that Finland fought against the Soviets only served to keep the World War going on longer then necessary keeping the Holocaust and all the other needles bloodshed continuing longer then necessary. And Finland had it's own concentration camps where Soviet civilians perished by the thousands.

Finland didnt start WW2, Finland didnt fight for or against anything but Finland.
Those were the cards dealt to us.
And the people in charge did their best, in the interest of the citizens on Finland, based on the knowledge at that time.

Personally i think you are a snotty prat leeching out of a state that most citizens are proud to be part in contributing and building.

[OneToughHerring]

Like what for example? About the Finnish concentration camps? They did exist.

[Dowly]

Like what for example? About the Finnish concentration camps? They did exist.

Yes, and nobody has said otherwise. What is your point? :roll:

[Kptlt. Neuerburg]

Just remember that these camps detained the Reds (aka the Communists) at the end of the Finnish Civil War, not in the way many people think concentration camps where used for in Nazi Germany. That and the Soviets where very inferior to the Finns in battle. For instance note the PPHS-41 SMG. This SMG first appered as the PPD-40 which was a Soviet copy of the Finnish SMG which is in the second photo that I posted. The Soviets used its massive number of troops, tanks and planes to try to roll over the Finns, and the Soviets might have used the best troops that they had in that region but not the best equipment or tactics. For example the Soviets used the T-26 instead of tanks like the T-34, using the improper uniforms in winter conditions brown istead of white, ect, ect.
The Soviets greatly underestimated the Finns in there tactics, skill in improvising weapons(Molotov Cocktail named after the Soviet Foreign Minister V.M. Molotov, and the Skipole Knife), and the the greatest weapon the Finns had was the knowing thier own countrys terrain.

[Torvald Von Mansee]

Yes, and nobody has said otherwise. What is your point? :roll:

I feel sort of like I'm watching an argument between two Americans arguing about our Civil War from different sides, but not having enough information to understand!!!!

[HunterICX]

Not only where they ill equiped but also poorly led due that the great purge in the 30's eliminated any competent/capable military leadership they had.

HunterICX

[Biggles]

Not only where they ill equiped but also poorly led due that the great purge in the 30's eliminated any competent/capable military leadership they had.

HunterICX

Indeed. As further proof of this, just look at the horrifying losses the Red Army took in -41, after Barbarossa. For the same reasons, more or less.

[Dowly]

Indeed. As further proof of this, just look at the horrifying losses the Red Army took in -41, after Barbarossa. For the same reasons, more or less.

IIRC, the losses for the Red Army during the WWII were something like 80% of all 20-35yo men. :doh:

[Biggles]

IIRC, the losses for the Red Army during the WWII were something like 80% of all 20-35yo men. :doh:

This I know nothing about, but they did indeed take losses of quite an enormous scale.

Wikipedia described the losses (in dead) for the Russian army during Barbarossa (June 22-December 5) as over 800 000. And that's only in the first 6 months of the "Great Patriotic War". By the end of the war, 26 600 000 people from the U.S.S.R. had died with the war as a direct cause. :nope:

[Raptor1]

Not only where they ill equiped but also poorly led due that the great purge in the 30's eliminated any competent/capable military leadership they had.

HunterICX

Indeed, when led properly, the early/pre-war Red Army could achieve great victories, such as Zhukov's Khalkhin Gol counteroffensive in August, 1939.

Also, superior numbers, tanks and equipment are useless without proper doctrines (This was evident as far back as the Battle of the Somme), and the Soviet ones were clearly lacking during the early months of the Winter War.

Oh, Dowly is referring to a certain year (Can't remember which) which a great precentage of the population that was born in died in the war.

[OneToughHerring]

I guess my problem is not so much with Finland emerging out of the Winter War unconquered, even victorious to an extent. My problem is with the myth of the Winter War used as a kind of military propaganda tool for various political aims.

I admit that I don't know much about the Winter War even if it is relatively close historically and I got to know my mother's father who was there. Never met my father's father who was there too, he died too early. However I don't necessarily believe what others tell me about the war either. It seems we learn new things about the war and the political motives behind the various decisions every year. We learn these things through neutral historical research. With time our opinions about the war change.

Russia today is different from the Soviet Union, it still has some of the same problems. It's a big country with lots of really should I say problematic neighbours. Where US has to deal with Canada and Mexico, Russia has a much more flammable situation on it's borders 24/7/365.

[OneToughHerring]

Oh I'm sorry, I must have missed this. Allow me to retort. :)

Your cathing straws.
This is getting ridiculous, you really have to be indoctrinated not to see the inferiority of the Soviets in this war.
Or the whole system actually, compared to western democracy, they ultimately lost.

Yes but the Soviets did win the war and the USSR came to an end only after they themselves decided to put an end to their system of government. It was socialism that whooped nazi's butt, that and the eastern 'untermench'.

That would be who?Finland of course, with Nazi-Germany.

So it was a only a clever strategy to loose for a few years and need support from allies to start winning later.
And great deception to deploy most of its armed forces against Finland to hide how it wasnt very important.
:hmmm:No it wasn't a clever strategy, it was just the Soviet military on the road to becoming the winner of WW2 and defeating the instigator of the war the west helped to build and was unable to defeat by itself.

Finland didnt start WW2, Finland didnt fight for or against anything but Finland.
Those were the cards dealt to us.
And the people in charge did their best, in the interest of the citizens on Finland, based on the knowledge at that time.

Personally i think you are a snotty prat leeching out of a state that most citizens are proud to be part in contributing and building.Why did Finland give it's own citizens and also pow's to extermination camps in Germany? Why did Finland have it's own concentration camps? Why did so many pow's die in Finland's pow camps?

[Kptlt. Neuerburg]

OTH the concentration camps that the Finns used where used to hold Finnish Citizens who had anything to do with communism. As for Prisoners of War where held in proper pow camps in accordance with the Genva Covention. As how the Finnish Military treated theses pows is a different story.
@ Torvlad Von Mansee I'm a Finnish-American on my Mothers side and both of my Grandparents lived through both the Winter War and the Continuation War as civilans after fleeing their homes in Karelia before the Soviets attacked.

[OneToughHerring]

No, I'm talking about the camps that were used to hold Soviet citizens (http://www.hs.fi/english/article/President+Halonen+rejects+compensation+for+Russian +detainees+at+Finnish+wartime+concentration+camps/1101978357994). Wikipedia. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_concentration_and_internment_camps#Continu ation_War)

I used to live close by to a place where there used to be a pow camp for Soviet pow's during WW2. Today there is just a big cemetary there that holds the thousand + prisoners who perished in that camp. There used to be mistreatment of the prisoners there, 'beating allies' where camp guards used to beat the prisoners who ran down a gauntlet of the guards who were beating them. Prisoners died from various causes.

It's true that during Winter and Continuation wars Finnish people with leftist or alledled leftist connections and/or sympathies were put in prison, in special containment etc.

[Happy Times]

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Originally Posted by Happy Times
Your cathing straws.
This is getting ridiculous, you really have to be indoctrinated not to see the inferiority of the Soviets in this war.
Or the whole system actually, compared to western democracy, they ultimately lost.

Yes but the Soviets did win the war and the USSR came to an end only after they themselves decided to put an end to their system of government. It was socialism that whooped nazi's butt, that and the eastern 'untermench'.

They won with the help of deliveries raw materials and products from USA, without it they would have lost.


USSR set out openly to defeat the western democratic market economies, in a battle of the systems and ideologies.
It developed into Cold War, they lost.





Quote:
That would be who?

Finland of course, with Nazi-Germany.

The Communist Party and USSR 1917-1991 takes that title.







Why did Finland give it's own citizens and also pow's to extermination camps in Germany? Why did Finland have it's own concentration camps? Why did so many pow's die in Finland's pow camps?

Finland didnt give any of its citizens to German extermination camps.
The POWS were traded for Finns, Karelians and Ingrians from German occupied areas.
Concentration camps were common in all countries during ww2.
Malnitrution, not forced labour or executions.