The Boxer

[GoldenRivet]

Hypothetical Situation

Lets say you want to be a professional boxer.

Your only goal in life... your dream... is to become a world class fighter known to all around the globe. To take relentless beatings to the face, head and torso day in and day out all for the sake of the title.

and someone - we will just say God - told you:

"Ok... you will be one of the best fighters in your class, almost everyone in the boxing world will know your name, the glory and the money and the girls and the golden gloves... all yours... everything you ever wanted out of this dream of yours will come true...


... but you will die as a result of the lifestyle before you see your 26th birthday."

would you do it?

Francisco Rodriguez Dead at age 25

I have never understood why these men have the desire to climb into a boxing ring, or an MMA cage or any other arena and rather pointlessly beat the living crap out of one another's heads.

his fatal injury no doubt the result of repeated blows to the head. :nope:

why?

Sorry to boxing fans but i have never seen this as sport... and i have never understood it.

[Torplexed]

Boxing has been in slow decline for years. It's largest demographic is males 50+. There have been no charismatic champions for a long time. I doubt if most could name the current heavyweight champ without some quick research. There's still too much gambling and corruption. The field is crowded with too many weight classes. To see a major bout you have to pay $60 on cable and they're usually guys you've never heard of. Frankly, the best athletes having viewed the career of Muhammad Ali, avoid boxing because of the horrific physical toll it takes, so boxing doesn't get the best athletes anymore.

I don't boxing think will die out completely, but it'll probably become one of those more marginal sports like horse racing, if it hasn't already. The younger generation will probably gravitate towards gaudier fighting events like pro wrestling and the cage matches, marginalizing it even further.

[AVGWarhawk]

Boxing was over for me when Ali retired. He was the greatest and will remain so in my pea brain.

[Rockin Robbins]

We do it all the time. We sneer at the Japanese sumo wrestlers killing themselves by mutating their bodies in unhealthy ways.

Meanwhile, the nasty secret is that the average lifespan of your garden variety NFL lineman is about 45 years! Five years of glory--15 years of physical misery from the accumulated injuries and death at half a lifespan. That's just great! I daresay sumo wrestlers do better than that...

Yet, how much glory do we heap on these suicide warriors? How many healthy, physically capable kids are devoting all their dreams, thoughts and energies to attaining a position of death today?

Hell! We won't permit people to smoke because it MIGHT subtract five years from their lives, but we make heroes of people willingly sacrificing 30 to 45 years! Yay us:rock:!!!!

Need we talk about rock musicians?

[nikimcbee]

Thank god for shuffleboard!:yeah::woot:

I never really got interested in boxing. I remember all that fuss over tyson's first fight(?), the one where it was over in like 30 seconds TKO:o

[Jimbuna]

Boxing was over for me when Ali retired. He was the greatest and will remain so in my pea brain.

Agreed.....apart from the 'pea brain' part :DL

[AVGWarhawk]

Agreed.....apart from the 'pea brain' part :DL

I knew there was a reason I like ya! :DL It is that quick wit! :up: I watched Ali when I was a wee lad. Ali was the boxer's boxer.

[GoldenRivet]

We do it all the time. We sneer at the Japanese sumo wrestlers killing themselves by mutating their bodies in unhealthy ways.

Meanwhile, the nasty secret is that the average lifespan of your garden variety NFL lineman is about 45 years! Five years of glory--15 years of physical misery from the accumulated injuries and death at half a lifespan. That's just great! I daresay sumo wrestlers do better than that...

Yet, how much glory do we heap on these suicide warriors? How many healthy, physically capable kids are devoting all their dreams, thoughts and energies to attaining a position of death today?

Hell! We won't permit people to smoke because it MIGHT subtract five years from their lives, but we make heroes of people willingly sacrificing 30 to 45 years! Yay us:rock:!!!!

Need we talk about rock musicians?

I can agree with a lot of that.

where we dont see eye to eye is the smoking thing.

I'm personally glad they have outlawed smoking in public places in my town.

its not the smoker's health i am worried about... its mine.

though i fully support one's right to smoke (i even enjoy a good cigar once every 18-24 months)

i cant say that i much appreciate cigarette smoke puffing around all over my family and myself while we are trying to enjoy dinner.

Cigar and Pipe smoke generally has a pleasing aroma and depending on the brand can be almost incense like - cigarette smoke on the other hand... most brands just have a rather unpleasant odor which stings the nostrils with a kind of bitterness.

if im hanging around in a bar, a strip club, on a camp site or on an aircraft tarmac - i certainly dont mind cigarette smoke as in those certain situations it is almost expected.

of course all of this is just my opinion - many might disagree.

but there is a time and a place for a smoke, and a classy restaurant at 6pm is not the place nor the time.

as far as football players go, it is a rather destructive lifestyle, and depending on the position you play you can walk away with broken limbs or a concussion... however injuries that could be considered "immediately life threatening" are exceptionally rare in the game of football.

in the cage or in the ring of boxing where the objective is to knock your opponent out cold by repeatedly crushing his face or skull - yeah - something about that seems most unwise.

when i played football i never walked onto a field expecting to get hurt, and the only injury i ever suffered was a cut about 1/4 inch long on my right hand after it made contact with the sharp edge of a chin strap button on an opposing player's helmet. several seasons of play - one "minor injury".

i think when a boxer inters the ring... everybody knows someone is going to get hurt in virtually every single match.

A lot of things happen when you take a forceful impact to the head... a lot of those things can kill you instantly... others can take a few days to kill you slowly.

[August]

Let's face it folks. Life is fatal.

What kind of world would this be where there are no boxers, sumo wrestlers or NFL linemen? Where nobody does anything that might shorten their lives?

But as GoldenRivet asks in his hypothetical situation: "would you do it?"
Well the truth is there are plenty of young guys out there who would make that choice and do it eagerly.

[nikimcbee]

here's more great info about boxers:
http://www.boxerworld.com/

:hmmm:

[Rockin Robbins]

And that, August, is an excellent point. It's time that we agree that our lives are ours, to spend as we wish. The default position of man should be freedom, with restraints on that freedom only in case of injury to others.

Yes you may solve a problem by taking away someone's freedom to act in a way you believe is harmful to themselves. But the law of unintended consequences takes over when you do. For every intended consequence of that action there will be three unintended consequences. Two of them will be bad. In this case one of the unintended consequences is that you are granting others the right to deny YOUR freedom. And I can tell you that some of that denial will definitely be unjust. The solution is worse than the problem.

[nikimcbee]

okay, what was the thread about?
http://ihasahotdog.wordpress.com/files/2008/07/funny-dog-pictures-boxer-with-gloves.jpg

http://images.clipartof.com/small/26539-Clipart-Illustration-Of-A-Tan-And-White-Boxer-Dog-With-Cropped-Ears-Fighting-With-Red-Boxing-Gloves.jpg


You're a pug! geddouttahere!
http://pounddesigns.com/images/pugboxer.jpg

A famous boxer?
http://images.inmagine.com/img/designpics/dp004/dp1811198.jpg

[Platapus]

What kind of world would this be where there are no boxers, sumo wrestlers or NFL linemen?

Honestly, pretty much the same.

Concerning the original topic, as long as all the participants enter the activity knowing the risks, and are able to make reasonable efforts to mitigate the injuries; as long as they are fully and completely witting, it is their choice.

With boxers starting earlier in life though I wonder if the participants are truly witting to the risks?

Anyone remember the poem: Who killed Davey Moore, why an' what's the reason for?

[Rockin Robbins]

All of us make unknowing decisions that affect the rest of our lives. We have no right to make witting decisions. We do have an obligation not to induce others to make unwitting decisions when we posses the knowledge they need to make a better one. But if they want that knowledge and make a decision contrary to what we think wise, we STILL do not have the inherent natural right to deny their freedom to make a wrong decision so long as the only injured party is them.

Justice is a fallacy. Expectation of justice is insanity.

[OneToughHerring]

We do it all the time. We sneer at the Japanese sumo wrestlers killing themselves by mutating their bodies in unhealthy ways.

Meanwhile, the nasty secret is that the average lifespan of your garden variety NFL lineman is about 45 years! Five years of glory--15 years of physical misery from the accumulated injuries and death at half a lifespan. That's just great! I daresay sumo wrestlers do better than that...

Yet, how much glory do we heap on these suicide warriors? How many healthy, physically capable kids are devoting all their dreams, thoughts and energies to attaining a position of death today?

Hell! We won't permit people to smoke because it MIGHT subtract five years from their lives, but we make heroes of people willingly sacrificing 30 to 45 years! Yay us:rock:!!!!

Need we talk about rock musicians?

Good points, didn't know that about the NFL linesmen. There is a saying here, "An athlete/sportsman never sees a day when he/she is healthy", meaning that they suffer throughout their careers and often forever after it.

However, there is this philosophical thought by Nietchze, "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger". If fear of sports makes people not do sports then they will destroy their healths through things like obesity, heart and coronary disease etc. which could be said to be even more damaging.

I've never boxed but I did play some football (soccer for americans) ice hockey and something called bandy in the juniors and with friends and in school. I remember one time when I went to the boards and was on the ice and saw these skates moving about an inch from my face and started thinking how smart it is.

[August]

Honestly, pretty much the same.

I completely disagree. A society that eradicates such things would be bland indeed.

[GoldenRivet]

I agree they should have the right - im not saying they shouldn't have the right to box, or bungee jump, or play Russian roulette.

I'm just saying that in my opinion - a lot of that stuff seems foolish.

perhaps i have far too great an instinct at "self preservation"

perhaps it comes with my job of being a professional pilot and flight instructor... my job is to ask myself before every flight "what can i do to prevent my passengers and myself from getting injured or killed today?"

I have only been in a few fist fights in my life.

won a couple - lost a couple - but it certainly is not something i would intentionally climb into a ring and do before an audience.

take another example

motocross racer Jeremy Lusk... he had barely started living his adult life when he was killed during a motocross jump.

I wont call the man stupid - apparently he was doing what he loved to do - however - i will say that you wouldnt find my arse whirling 50 feet through the air upside down, holding on with one hand on a dirt bike.

life is risky business.

I agree with you guys that if you don't live your life - it is wasted.

but if you live it so hard as to die in your early 20's... is that not also a waste?

[OneToughHerring]

won a couple - lost a couple - but it certainly is not something i would intentionally climb into a ring and do before an audience.

How do you know you've won a fist fight that doesn't take place in a ring?

At least around here boxers quite often get pretty good compensation, have doctors who attend to them, get an athletes pension. If one is a boxer in some country where there is no athletes pensionsystem then I guess it can be pretty unrewarding stuff.

[GoldenRivet]

How do you know you've won a fist fight that doesn't take place in a ring?

When the other guy has a broken nose, a bleeding eye and is crying in the fetal position and you are in more or less the same condition as when you started swinging.

[OneToughHerring]

When the other guy has a broken nose, a bleeding eye and is crying in the fetal position and you are in more or less the same condition as when you started swinging.

Yea one might think so. But having found out, there aren't any rules in fighting that has no rules. So win one day and next day you'll meet the whole club meaning there might be more rounds then just one. And basicly no rules.

Also there's that pesky law that says, at least around here, that the one who does more damage will have to pay more if and when the case goes to court. Even if the other guy "started it".

[Sailor Steve]

No. If I knew beyond all doubt that a certain activity would kill me at a certain point, I wouldn't do it. But we never know that. It's a risk, yes, but a certainty?

I have never understood why these men have the desire to climb into a boxing ring, or an MMA cage or any other arena and rather pointlessly beat the living crap out of one another's heads.
For the same reason that young men go to war. It's a thrill, there are reasons and excuses, and it's always the other guy who's going to die, not me.

[kiwi_2005]

nothing wrong with boxing, helps release alot of anger built up. Best thing for a young man is to get in a ring and go a few rounds - far better than going to a bar and drinking a few rounds.

[OneToughHerring]

nothing wrong with boxing, helps release alot of anger built up. Best thing for a young man is to get in a ring and go a few rounds - far better than going to a bar and drinking a few rounds.

Yea I agree. Even if one only does the calisthenics/shadow boxing/cardio stuff and not the actual fighting/sparring then it's a good sport for both men and women. Gives confidence and is good for people of all ages.

[August]

No. If I knew beyond all doubt that a certain activity would kill me at a certain point, I wouldn't do it. But we never know that. It's a risk, yes, but a certainty?


For the same reason that young men go to war. It's a thrill, there are reasons and excuses, and it's always the other guy who's going to die, not me.

Yeah although they rarely admit it, young men are often convinced of their immortality.

[Oberon]

Bingo, I mean if you're asking why people box, then you might as well ask why people go to war, or play NFL or any other sport which incurs physical damage, not so long ago a report claimed that 'heading' a football increases the likelihood of brain damage. Take from that what you will.
However, at the end of the day no two people on this Earth are exactly alike, and while I agree Boxing certainly doesn't have the appeal today than it used to in the days of Ali, or even Tyson and Bruno (although the recent news about the short Brit who took down that tall Russian gave me a grin, talk about David and Goliath) but surely it's better in the ring between two guys who want to fight, than in the street between a guy who wants a fight and an innocent passer by, something which we see a lot of in the UK these days.

Kiwi and OTH are quite right in a way, it's no surprise that in the British Army and I'm sure the US Army too, there is several boxing teams, quite competative ones too, and they can be put to good use with some people who have, shall we say, a more aggressive streak than others, and the discipline instilled in a) the army and b) the training for boxing. Actually, come to think of it, I think they also used to put in chaps who had confidence problems, help build them up, that kinda thing. I don't know if it still goes on in the British Army...probably too much red tape, but I'm pretty sure that twenty-thirty years ago the chaps used to go in the ring.

I've never boxed, never will, and have no particular desire to, however I understand that there are those that do, and to them I say, good luck, so long as they know what they're getting themselves into and accept that, then good luck to 'em. :salute:

[GoldenRivet]

I've never boxed, never will, and have no particular desire to, however I understand that there are those that do, and to them I say, good luck, so long as they know what they're getting themselves into and accept that, then good luck to 'em. :salute:

I agree.

wonder how his widow and infant daughter feel about it though? :shifty:

The point i was trying to make...

such a waste at just 25 years old.

of course we all take risks just climbing into the shower in the morning... but while taking a shower is not a particularly risky activity; boxing and ama fighting are inherently dangerous, lethally so.

[Oberon]

The armed forces are also a deep risk, and people younger than 25 die in it, boxing is just one such example of high risk sports, although it's probably one of the most publicised of them, but Ice Hockey is another pretty brutal game at times although it has better safety features. Base jumping, bull riding, cliff diving, cliff climbing (and I mean the nutters without the ropes). It is pretty darn selfish though to do this if you have a wife and kids though, and it's about that time that the gloves should be hung up if not before hand. Although in some peoples case, it's their sport that brings in the money for their lifestyle, look at the Rooneys and the Beckhams, their sport opened up the gateway to their life and admittedly now they can probably bring in as much money off the pitch as they can on it they are still living the life of riley because of a sport which can be dangerous, not as dangerous as boxing, obviously, but still can cause serious injuries at times, likewise rugby players, moreso in fact.
It's a bit of a catch-22 really, but I do agree with the sentiment you bring up on the dependents of people in high risk sports.

[GoldenRivet]

good points you have made oberon.

on the other hand... very few people join the military or perform some other highly dangerous job for the "sport" of doing so.

[August]

I'm thinking more about the average person. I regard voluntarily risking ones neck as an important character building life experience for a young man.

[GoldenRivet]

I'm thinking more about the average person. I regard voluntarily risking ones neck as an important character building life experience for a young man.

true

but to what end?

voluntarily risking one's neck for the purposes of national security or to protect the innocent or to provide for the betterment of mankind etc

thats one thing

but what about voluntarily risking one's neck for the sake of seeing their name in lights? or winning a $50,000 purse to spend on a sports car?

motivation says a lot about the intent and about the sort of "character" the indivudual will be building too

[Oberon]

good points you have made oberon.

on the other hand... very few people join the military or perform some other highly dangerous job for the "sport" of doing so.

True, true, and equally some people do not take up boxing purely for sport. Some might live in an area of economic downturn and find that they can earn money whacking other people for the entertainment of others and since they enjoy a bit of a punch up outside the pub of a Friday night, it's a better prospect than signing on, or in the days of old, going down the pit or in the mills where your average live expectancy was probably not that far off the average boxers.
Of course, in the current era such circumstances are becoming fewer and farer between and, as has already been stated, boxing has seen a decline over recent years, but street violence has risen, is that unbridled rage that might have gone into the ring, or into the army in years past the same that stalks the streets at night with a tin in its hand ready to 'kick off' at someone who looks at them 'funny'? I know where it would be better served than on the local council estate and that is in the ring where a measure of self-discipline could be taught alongside anger releasing fights. However, this is travelling outside the moral dillemma which is the question we have asked ourselves and into more defined scenarios. To some people sport is not a 'sport' it is a way of life, it is like art, artists don't paint because they feel like it, they paint because they want money for their work for the most part, and it is perhaps at that point where sport and art, stop being sport and art and become a job.
I once asked my grandfather, who is quite a talented artist on the quiet, why he didn't do it professionally, and he replied to me that he enjoyed painting, he'd go down to his little garden shed and pass the hours behind a canvas at his own leisure, but if he had to do this to a deadline, he couldn't do it as well as he does because it would no longer be leisure, it would be work and work is very rarely fun! :haha:
However, on the flip side, no-one says that you have to remain a boxer or artist for the rest of your life, but I fear that it is human nature to always want a little bit more, and once money flies in, common sense often flies out...and thus it's always a case of 'The next match will be my last'.

There is one other aspect I think that should be addressed though...

Who is truely at fault for the death of a 25 year old boxer though? The boxer himself, or the audience that continues to pay the boxing trade? Would people continue to box professionally if there was no money in it?

Something to think about while I try and figure out what I've just typed because I'm rambling again because it's 2:09am.... :hmmm: