Deceased Crew Members / How will crew deaths be simulated? (threads merged)

[Lord Justice]

havent played sh3 for quite some time, but i recall bury crew at sea question. just curious to know what mixed reactions ie choice one would do if implemented in sh5.?? forgive me if this has already been posted!! (1st lets forget proper procedure if i may) fling the rule book away for a moment, we all know its a serious sim and such it should remain, but would love your input on this. In sh3 i sent deceased crew members to the bottom if KIA at start , mid patrol, but near end i popped them into aft torpedo room, returning them to loved ones on home soil lol. now i know we have first person mode and can visit all sub rooms, plus torpedo storage and all, call me morbid if you may but what would you do??? and if this option were to be in sh5, would storing corpse of crew members have an effect on morale?? positive and negative? if bury at sea, would it be a simple disaperence of said crew member? or some kind of object on the nav map floating or sinking perhaps. ie corpse, flag, symbol, etc. iam not in any way endorsing this to be included into the sim as so many have such strong objections, guess iam after opinions. As captain of your vessel, :shifty: bury at sea ? or take home to family!! ???

[Ducimus]

I think your reading into a video game too much. :88)

[Ilpalazzo]

Shark food minigame.

[simsurfer]

call me morbid if you may but what would you do??? and if this option were to be in sh5, would storing corpse of crew members have an effect on morale?? positive and negative?

Have you ever smelled a body that has been dead for a couple of days, even at room temp?

I didnt think so.

Effect on crew moral? You Must be joking.

[Lord Justice]

lol u think?? sh3 came up with the basic idea, whats wrong with colder torpedo tube? having said that yes we all tend to get deep in this forum, but i do like your view albeit somewhat vague.

[Ducimus]

The sight of a comrade in arms getting mangled alone is enough to hurt moral. Seeing blood so thick pouring out of a persons head like someone pulled the drain plug from an oil pan alone is enough to hurt moral. Or seeing a huge, thick blood pool dry, and crack like a bucket of paint. Yeah, try and wash that off, blood stains like a sonofabitch. All that would hurt moral, Let alone the stench of a dead body.

Again, this is just a video game. Some folks want to take this "immersion" thing a little bit too far.

[Webster]

body overboard asap or if not then out the torpedo tube but off the boat they go.

this is ww2 and theres no morgue with freezers onboard :nope:

[Lord Justice]

Again, this is just a video game. Some folks want to take this "immersion" thing a little bit too far. lol and what about the some folks that want to see saucer eyes of pure fear during depth charges, bodies being ripped apart on life rafts by gung ho AA gunners!! calm yourself man read the thread i said i do not endorse this idea but would love input, and well thats what this thread sure gettin but its a y or no question iam not putting arms and limbs on floor for all to see lol:damn:

[Ducimus]

I am calm. Takes a bit more then this silly topic to get my dander up. I was only illustrating how stupid i thought the topic was, only i was being nice about it.

But since you want input on it, here's my unvarnished input.

Stuff like this, is the bane of a simulation. Your original post is the posterchild of eyecandy over gameplay. I run into this crap all the time as a modder. People putting eyecandy over gameplay. To such a degree they want eyecandy, they'll break gameplay functionality that took days, weeks or months to get right, just for the sake of the much lauded eye candy. Too many People define "immersion" through eyecandy, and gameplay takes a back seat. It is no surprise that now we have a discussion about storing dead bodies on a new title that will be rendered like a first person shooter.

And yes, im being calm and rational, you wouldn't like me when im angry. :rotfl2:

[TwistedFemur]

This thread has that sinking feeling

[Lord Justice]

I am calm. Takes a bit more then this silly topic to get my dander up. I was only illustrating how stupid i thought the topic was, only i was being nice about it.


Stuff like this, is the bane of a simulation. Your original post is the posterchild of eyecandy over gameplay. I run into this crap all the time as a modder.

And yes, im being calm and rational, you wouldn't like me when im angry. :rotfl2: Who made u god? silly topic lol look at ur eyecandy location Davy Jones Locker:haha: as for crap these forums are for simmers to unite discuss and help all ideas wanted, did any one say accepted!!! you starting to make me annoyed now wee man!! modder with such tenacity to frown upon any unfit suggestions?? ok got your point and bravo on the little speech , perhaps we sould all kneel to the knights of the round table first with our suggestions and ideas??? aye you would like that!!

[Reece]

Well, when you press "Bury the dead button" like in SH3 you could have a small movie come up showing a sea burial from the U-boat deck with German flag covering the corpse etc, just another silly thought Ducimus!!:yep:

[Ducimus]

Whatever. Have fun daydreaming about dead bodies on a submarine. :haha:

edit:
Well, when you press "Bury the dead button" like in SH3 you could have a small movie come up showing a sea burial from the U-boat deck with German flag covering the corpse etc, just another silly thought Ducimus!!:yep:

Nothing wrong with that. One quick movie and it's done with. The whole storing of the dead on a sub is a bit of a stretch though.

Not to mention a complete waste of development time. What would you rather have the devs work on, eyecandy or functionality? err.. wait a minute.. nevermind, i forgot where i was. :shifty:

[Lord Justice]

to be honest both, eyecandy sells, functuality works, to much eyecandy yes would loose the plot , to much functuality become mundane mechanical robots order to the book!! its no your cup of tea fair doos !! did i ask it to work no, do i care no, did i ask if one would decide on bury at sea ,or take deceased crew home, yes, you swayed the thread, with bad intentions, swaped it all about.

[Reece]

You are correct Ducimus, it's the same with movies, in the old days the eye candy was poor but the stories were great, nowadays the eye candy is excellent but the stories are generally crap, I definitely prefer the story (functionality) over eye candy,:yep: now if they could make both excellent ... as the Fonz would say ... Heyyy!!:yeah:

[Torplexed]

call me morbid

Consider it done.

[karamazovnew]

How can you call dead bodies in the freezer "eye-candy"?!! But the original question is not without merit (altough Dulcimus thinks otherwise). What happens to a dead crew, does his model simply dissapear? Do other crew members drag him somewhere else? And what about the injured? Can crew die while the medic tries to operate them? And what about the medic? does he run from injured to injured? Does he triage? Does he go personally to atend to incapacitated crew? This isn't eye candy, it's an issue that was created by the whole FPS camera thing. The devs must deal with such issues. And if there is a body somewhere, even if for just a few hours, it's normal they should think about where the poor fellow should be put. And let's face it, throwing him along with oil and debris out of an empty torpedo tube (although bad for morale) would be a good tactic in the first part of the war.

[JScones]

In all my SH3 playing days I have only ever had all dead or none dead, never some dead.

Now while I find this whole concept about priority #20, karamazovnew does raise some valid points. Recognising FPS for what they are, when someone gets shot "you" can usually patch them up. Quite arcadish (run over to injured man, press A, followed by X, followed by Y and voila!), but nonetheless possible.

So if I cop critical damage and choose to go for a look-see, what will I find? Will there be a bloodied body there waiting for me to drag him, or at least order another crewman to drag him, or will the game automatically take care of him, waiting only for me to give the "dispatch" order? This is a conundrum that the devs have created. They may not have even thought about it to this level.

And another thing, not all U-boats had qualified medical staff, at least beyond first aid. Injured crew tended to be dropped off at a milk cow docking, as the milk cow usually had higher skilled medicos. This adds another element of complexity to the whole idea. We know SH5 has milk cows, but will it also allow you to offload injured or sick crew? :hmmm:

Again, not stuff I personally care about, but as the devs have chosen to go down this path...

[Reece]

In all my SH3 playing days I have only ever had all dead or none dead, never some dead.In SH3 Haven't you ever been shot at by aircraft and one or more on the conning tower men are killed, they show up dead (red) in the crew screen, right click on them and you have the option to bury them at sea.:yep:

[Ilpalazzo]

There were times where I left dead guys on the boat because I thought they were injured.

I'm not expecting a whole lot from the animations or anything. I wouldn't be surprised if the dead just disappeared. If there is a medic that does anything I'll bet you'd only ever see him bandaging the same guy over and over.

Here's another idea; Soylent Soup. The delicious taste would raise morale.

[Reece]

Here's another idea; Soylent Soup. The delicious taste would raise morale.Not me, would just make me go green!!:oops::dead: Excuse me while I pewk!!:doh:

[oscar19681]

I wonder why you couldnt bury a dead crew member at sea in sh-4 . I thought it was realistic in sh-3

[mookiemookie]

How can you call dead bodies in the freezer "eye-candy"?!! Because it's getting bogged down in minutiae that doesn't serve any real purpose. If the crewmember is dead, he's dead. Click him and choose the bury at sea option. That's it. Done, finished, over. If you want to get really slick with it, splice in a little cut scene of a shrouded body being slid over the side. In my opinion, it's stupid to waste time and effort doing anything else.

[Alex]

it's stupid to waste time and effort doing anything else.

I agree.

[FIREWALL]

In the few books I have that mention a death while on patrol.

They were buried at sea.

The only circumstance different was while leaving port and attacked by planes they and boat turned around and returned to port with dead.

I think SH-3 had it right. Keep it simple. Toss em over the side. :O:

[Ducimus]

You are correct Ducimus, it's the same with movies, in the old days the eye candy was poor but the stories were great, nowadays the eye candy is excellent but the stories are generally crap, I definitely prefer the story (functionality) over eye candy,:yep: now if they could make both excellent ... as the Fonz would say ... Heyyy!!:yeah:

I do believe eyecandy has its place, but functionality should always be held in greater priority over eyecandy. The instant eyecandy meets or exceeds the priority value or development time of functionality, what we'll probably end up with, is a Micheal Bay 'splosions version of a submarine game.

Because it's getting bogged down in minutiae that doesn't serve any real purpose. If the crewmember is dead, he's dead. Click him and choose the bury at sea option. That's it. Done, finished, over. If you want to get really slick with it, splice in a little cut scene of a shrouded body being slid over the side. In my opinion, it's stupid to waste time and effort doing anything else.

Exactly!

[Sailor Steve]

Real life experience: While I was a radioman on a destroyer in Vietnam, we regularly did fire-support for the marines. In one instance they had two killed and one wounded, and asked us to transport them to Da Nang for proper disposal. For three days and two nights we had two body bags in one of our reefers. For hygenic reasons we took all the food out of that reefer and jammed it into the other one. I was serving my month as a mess cook (waiter and busboy) at that time. We never had to go near that reefer, but it was still spooky and creepy. I certainly wouldn't want uncooled bodies anywhere on my boat.

[pythos]

My educated guess is that once someone had passed, and the boat was more than half a day out from base, then the body would be buried at sea. Reason being, that a body starts decomposing once life functions stop. The vapors (yes there are vapors) are threats to health. A u-boat did not have much in the way of refrigerating units, certainly not big enough to store the deceased.

Now for some here that really ripped into the OP. He has a valid point. People did die on these boats, either from enemy action, or disease. IT HAPPENED.

The reference to the blood and gore of shooting up life boats was just mean. Though perhaps that should be implemented, and there being a HIGH probability of the crew turning in such a monster (which the Germans did do to such commanders). And your captian getting hung or shot.

In sh4 there was no burial at sea option, and I one time had to cruise with 5 dead crew members (killed by that god awful stupid bug where crew stayed on the bridge, even though the boat was under water, and a bomb went off killing all the bridge crew.) I felt that was just so unrealistic. I could not burry them.

Putting them in a torpedo tube I would think would be a very bad idea I would think. Unless the idea was to eject them out into the water.

[Webster]

Putting them in a torpedo tube I would think would be a very bad idea I would think. Unless the idea was to eject them out into the water.

yes, that was the point. as i explained in my post when i made the statement, if you couldnt surface for whatever reason then the torpedo tube was the only way to get them off the boat.

the way i view the handling of dead bodies in the game is like the wat they handle going to the head, both are necessary and both are facts of life but both are equally not needed to be represented in the game at all nor should there be a need to see blood and body parts all over like a game of doom 3.

Now for some here that really ripped into the OP. He has a valid point. People did die on these boats, either from enemy action, or disease. IT HAPPENED.

i agree with you on this because it is an interesting topic of discussion even though my personal opinion is it shouldnt be in the game.

[Platapus]

would storing corpse of crew members have an effect on morale?? positive and negative?

Might make the soup a little chunkier and filling. :D

[Reece]

Might make the soup a little chunkier and filling. :DMmmmm .... that "other white meat"!!:yep:

[Lord Justice]

i agree with you on this because it is an interesting topic of discussion even though my personal opinion is it shouldnt be in the game.Thank you, my sentiments exactly, i posted for opinion of choice,and mere discussion for another scenario. it took one guy to mix up the original post, indirectly iam the morbid butcher of my own crew. pepole are to quick to assume without properly,and i mean carefully reading the original WORDING of the stated post. i mentioned not endorsing the comment, and taking the seriousness aside for a moment yet still some jump on the band wagon to mix up and cojur there own recipe of negative thought. well that said iam now the proud captain of an ice box morgue sailing to collect dead from various wolfpacs. ii aim to please lol, well some intresting topics albeit more fror the worst under misinterpetation and failure of correct read. Having said all and finger wagging finished iam curious to the guy who said he never lost any crew or all at same time in sh3, not singler, did you never use aa guns or deck guns ?? :arrgh!:

[kptn_kaiserhof]

have you all ever been to a funaural not a joyful time

but if you see it as buriul vs smelly corpse i say buriul

[Sevrin]

If you are having substantial crew casualties, something is wrong...

It should amount to no more than: click, bury, done.

Blood spurting everywhere like something taken from a Monty Python skit, is probably not something we will (or should) ever see in Silent Hunter.

[Lord Justice]

blood, what blood? me thinks you need to surface and inhale some pure air. :88)

[Sevrin]

blood, what blood? me thinks you need to surface and inhale some pure air. :88)


Nah man, we're hanging below the thermal layer with some lava lamps and Jimi Hendrix 8 tracks... :|\\

http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx43/sevrin2009/groovy.png

[Lord Justice]

:woot:lol, nice one

[Sky999]

I'm wondering If we can see the crew die? Will we see them get locked in a flooded compartment and drown while banging on the door?

Will we see a crew member be killed by an aircraft's machine guns and slump into the sea from off the deck?

Will we see a shell pierce the sub and kill a crew member, and having his corpse stay where he fell instead of just slowly vanishing?

I'm not saying a lot of gore, just allowing us to see them die. It wouldn't mean an adult rating, even PG games have deaths, I mean we are sending hundreds and hundreds of men to their graves, we should be able to see ours die as well.

It'll really be immersion breaking If all of a sudden a guy we are talking to just vanishes into thin air and we are just told 'so and so has died'. It didn't matter as much before but now that we can move about freely around the sub, it would be stupid to go to so much effort to immerse the player and then just have your crew *poof* and vanish. :-?

[TDK1044]

The game rating would change if the Devs were to show crew deaths on the sub. This would impact sales. The death of crew members on the decks of some enemy ships can be shown at a distance because of the sub's position in relation to the ships that it is attacking.

I wouldn't expect to see sub crew deaths.

[GoldenRivet]

I wouldnt expect it either.

However, one thing i didnt like about SH3, when a crewmember is dead, he is just red.

With all parts of the sub accessible it would be a real disappointment if you searched the whole boat and this crew member was just "gone" and no longer anywhere to be seen.

I would say that in a bunk, with a sheet pulled over his head would work.

There he would remain until you surface, order all stop, and physically click the body.

at this time a short burial at sea sequence would take place.

Perhaps render 5 or 6 crew on deck sliding his body overboard before heading back below or someting... nothing fancy.

AT A MINIMUM: you should be able to right click the body on the crew management screen and select "Burial at sea" option. and then the crewman simply disappears.

[DarkFish]

I think some limited death animations will be included.
They were already in SH4, just watch your crew being machine gunned during an air attack. First they get a small wound, like a bullet in their arm but they can still work. Next they get seriously wounded and can barely stand anymore. If they get even more damage they'll drop dead and will keep lying there.

[Sky999]

Again, this is just a video game. Some folks want to take this "immersion" thing a little bit too far.

It's not a game, its a 'simulator'. It's purpose is to simulate life on a submarine, letting crew members 'vanish' into thin air to simulate their death is terribly immersion breaking.

[ETR3(SS)]

It's not a game, its a 'simulator'. It's purpose is to simulate life on a submarine, letting crew members 'vanish' into thin air to simulate their death is terribly immersion breaking. It's a game, based on the fact that the simulation is and always will be no where near what the real thing is.

[Sky999]

It's a game, based on the fact that the simulation is and always will be no where near what the real thing is.

I'm certain that isn't the basis of the game. :har:

[PL_Andrev]

This is very interesting topic, but SH5 is a submarine simulator whose goal is to sink the enemy - no arranging funerals for killed in action.

[FIREWALL]

So they should have a morbid setting huh ? :dead:

TDK1044 says it all. :yep:

[PL_Andrev]

AT A MINIMUM: you should be able to right click the body on the crew management screen and select "Burial at sea" option. and then the crewman simply disappears.

And what if you do not right click?
Will you swim with crew's bodies on deck?

Solution known in SH4 is good.
In this game we do not do many thinks which really happened (f.e. checking uboat position etc). In my opinion the game should concentrated on sinking enemy, no arranging funerals for killed in action.
After sinking enemy ship I put "return to course" and "time compression"...
It is no time to funerals etc etc.
This is no reality, men. ;)

Next topic on SUBSIM:
How will captain wounds & death be simulated?
:D

[FIREWALL]

[quote=FIREWALL;1205274]In the few books I have that mention a death while on patrol.

They were buried at sea.

The only circumstance different was while leaving port and attacked by planes they and boat turned around and returned to port with dead.

I think SH-3 had it right. Keep it simple. Toss em over the side. :O:[/quot

Is this horse still being beaten to death ?

Ubisoft is not going to put a detailed death in a video game.

It's called A SALES KILLER.

It's always the same everytime it gets close to release date.

The Posts get stupid and more lame.:O:

[FIREWALL]

This is very interesting topic, but SH5 is a submarine simulator whose goal is to sink the enemy - no arranging funerals for killed in action.

:up::up::up: :salute:

[Sky999]

I'm amazed at some of the answers you guys are writing. I thought this was called 'subsim'?

This is a simulator, this isn't an action game.

If all you want to do is blow up ships then go and buy Battlestations Midway.

The idea of this game is to simulate the life and actions of a U-boat crew. We follow them on their journey, manage their shifts, promotions etc...

Obviously the goal of the crew is to sink as many ships as possible, but If that's all you think is needed in the game then why even bother:

- Finding the enemy.
- Plotting courses
- Moving the ship (why not let the AI do all the work?)
- starting us off in port?
- Letting us go to different rooms and the deck?
- Letting us use instruments?
- Giving us miscellaneous features?

Using the logic of:

In my opinion the game should concentrated on sinking enemy, no arranging funerals for killed in action.



...we might as well just start of right next to a convoy, have AI steering and only be able to use the periscope, If sinking ships is what a 'submarine simulator' is about.

The game rating would change if the Devs were to show crew deaths on the sub.

This is going to be what, a 12? a 15 rated game? Even 12 rated games have deaths in them, think for a second just how many games involve deaths and killing, 95% If not more do. The only time games have ratings as high as 18, which I assume is the rating you are worried about it recieving, Is if they have nudity or insane amounts of gore. SH5 will have neither I'm sure.

This will be a 15 at the worst, and that only singles out young kids who will either:

- buy it anyway, because lets be honest, assistants in shops really don't care about age restrictions.

or

- become completely bored of it because they wanted an 'action' game not a simulator.

Regardless of what you guys think, to me If a game calls itself a simulator and markets itself as one, then it better 'simulate' the experience of being on a submarine to the best of the developer's abilities.

[GoldenRivet]

I'm amazed at some of the answers you guys are writing. I thought this was called 'subsim'?

This is a simulator, this isn't an action game.

This is where i am in perfect agreement with you

where some players "return to course" and set maximum "Time Compression" to the next engagement...

some of us DONT do that. some of us have played out entire patrols on 1x compression - it is there under those most extreme of simulated conditions that little card games, in game books, crew interaction - and yes - even burials at sea would have done much to add to the depth of the game

If all you want to do is blow up ships then go and buy Battlestations Midway.

To this, my response is the generally accepted tone of subsim.com on this issue... that is "to each his own". If the arcade play style best represents what you are looking for in a subsim... so be it... ubi has done a great job of making these games scalable to various skill levels.

The idea of this game is to simulate the life and actions of a U-boat crew. We follow them on their journey, manage their shifts, promotions etc...

Obviously the goal of the crew is to sink as many ships as possible, but If that's all you think is needed in the game then why even bother...

...we might as well just start of right next to a convoy, have AI steering and only be able to use the periscope, If sinking ships is what a 'submarine simulator' is about.

again... I agree.

Much to the chagrin of hard core subsimmers... there are those who reflect this exact play style you have described.

one the one hand, we should embrace them as brethren skippers.

on the other hand, we should push developers to adapt the scalability of the subsims to accommodate as many player types as possible... and IMHO this DOES include the arcader all the way up to the guy who locks himself in his room, eats from cans, refuses to shave, and rubs salt on his flesh to get the fullest appreciation for the experience. :rock:

Regardless of what you guys think, to me If a game calls itself a simulator and markets itself as one, then it better 'simulate' the experience of being on a submarine to the best of the developer's abilities.

I agree again. (im starting to like this new guy)

One of the features i enjoyed about brothers in arms... you developed a sort of appreciation / friendship or fondness of certain characters in the game.

when the game killed these characters off - there is a slight sense of regret and sadness over the death of the character.

IMHO - SH5 would benifit greatly from such a similar feature.

[TDK1044]

I'm amazed at some of the answers you guys are writing. I thought this was called 'subsim'?

This is a simulator, this isn't an action game.

If all you want to do is blow up ships then go and buy Battlestations Midway.

The idea of this game is to simulate the life and actions of a U-boat crew. We follow them on their journey, manage their shifts, promotions etc...

Obviously the goal of the crew is to sink as many ships as possible, but If that's all you think is needed in the game then why even bother:

- Finding the enemy.
- Moving the ship (why not let the AI do all the work?)
- starting us off in port?
- Letting us go to different rooms and the deck?
- Letting us use instruments?
- Giving us miscellaneous features?

Using the logic of:




...we might as well just start of right next to a convoy, have AI steering and only be able to use the periscope, If sinking ships is what a 'submarine simulator' is about.



This is going to be what, a 12? a 15 rated game? Even 12 rated games have deaths in them, think for a second just how many games involve deaths and killing, 95% If not more do. The only time games have ratings as high as 18, which I assume is the rating you are worried about it recieving, Is if they have nudity or insane amounts of gore. SH5 will have neither I'm sure.

This will be a 15 at the worst, and that only singles out young kids who will either:

- buy it anyway, because lets be honest, assistants in shops really don't care about age restrictions.

or

- become completely bored of it because they wanted an 'action' game not a simulator.

Regardless of what you guys think, to me If a game calls itself a simulator and markets itself as one, then it better 'simulate' the experience of being on a submarine to the best of the developer's abilities.



The argument as to whether the Silent Hunter series consists of sims or a games has been discussed in many threads here at subsim. My own view is that Ubisoft markets Silent Hunter as a sim, but they deliver it as a game. Take all the impressive mods out of Silent Hunter IV, and how much of a sim is it in reality?

You could apply the criteria you speak of to something like Microsoft's Combat Flight Simulaor. In that sim, you could shoot as many bombers as you like, but you won't ever see the crew bailing out of a burning plane. You could fly low over an enemy airfield and go short sighted looking for people to shoot.

Silent Hunter V will not offer you the ability to visually interact with dead and dying crew members. If that's a deal breaker for you then don't buy the product.

[FIREWALL]

Is this another thread of " All agree to my way or I'll cry ":wah:

[GoldenRivet]

Silent Hunter V will not offer you the ability to visually interact with dead and dying crew members. If that's a deal breaker for you then don't buy the product.

I dont think anyone is touting it as a "deal breaker".

however the point brought up - is an interesting one.

traditionally, when a member of the crew is killed - he simply ceases to exist within the game.

it would be a nice addition for the hard core players to have at least some sort of outlet for acknowledging the deceased crewman.

be it a simple right click with a "burial at sea" option

or be it a complex, drawn out 1x time compression affair of assembling hands on deck and conducting a very small ceremony.

dead bodies - like live bodies - take up space aboard the boat.

in SH3/4 we drive for weeks on end with a "red" dead crewman in a bunk.

but what do we see if we are now given the ability to walk past that very bunk?

nothing?

there are some very deeply envolved players that will want to see something... even if it is a folded uniform and personal effects.

[TDK1044]

Oh, I'm not against a visual reference to the fact that a crew member is now deceased. I don't even mind the right click burial at sea option, I just don't want to end up having to micro manage dead crewmen like we had to micro manage live crewmen in SHIII. That would be tedious beyond belief.

[FIREWALL]

Is their a Funeral Home Simulator ? :dead:

[Sky999]

Is this another thread of " All agree to my way or I'll cry


No

I just don't want to end up having to micro manage dead crewmen like we had to micro manage live crewmen in SHIII. That would be tedious beyond belief.

It's not that much of a problem, Ideally we wouldn't have any casualties. It can't be too much of a time consuming thing to have a quick burial cinematic/seeing crew members die during an attack. If you're like me and play using 1x only, then it's makes no difference, it only adds to the experience.

I hope we have an official answer on this because I am eager to know, regardless of whether we see crew members die and lie dead in the sub, or they just *poof* and vanish, how they will die. You have to agree that now we can walk around it would really take the immersion away to have a crew member just *poof* and he's gone.

there are some very deeply envolved players that will want to see something... even if it is a folded uniform and personal effects.

Exactly, I will never be a ww2 U boat captain, but I'm willing to spend my money to simulate it as best as possible. It's the little details that make it worth buying. I can blow something up on 99% of games out there, I'm buying this partly for the action but also for the experience of hardly breathing while diving deeper and deeper to escape depth charges, getting attached to certain crew members and feeling actual sadness when they die. It's these little things that make the game.

The original point has somewhat drifted, I originally was sayign how I wanted to see crew members 'fall over dead' to put it bluntly. I hope now we can walk around the sub, we won't suddenly see our crew members vanish into thin air. That would take you right out of your immersion zone.

[Sailor Steve]

There's already a thread on this subject, right here on the front page.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=158334

[ichso]

If you're like me and play using 1x only

During the whole ... patrol ? :o

[GoldenRivet]

During the whole ... patrol ? :o

Sometimes.

rarely, but sometimes yes.

[Méo]

If you don't get what you're looking for, please remember that:

The thing is that if Silent Hunter would include everything you guys have requested, it would truly be a WORLD simulation, which would be fine by me, but would take forever to implement. The only possible approach is to take it one step at a time. And as you can already see, SH5 is a way bigger step than SH4.

Your idea, which is not a bad one, is probably not a priority.

I agree with Steve, there's already a thread on this subject.

[DarkFish]

The original point has somewhat drifted, I originally was sayign how I wanted to see crew members 'fall over dead' to put it bluntly. I hope now we can walk around the sub, we won't suddenly see our crew members vanish into thin air. That would take you right out of your immersion zone.
exactly, but as i said we already have that feature in SH4. Your crewmembers do 'fall over dead' and stay there for a while. I can think of no good reason why UBI would suddenly drop that feature.

[Lord Justice]

It's not that much of a problem, Ideally we wouldn't have any casualties. It can't be too much of a time consuming thing to have a quick burial cinematic/seeing crew members die during an attack. If you're like me and play using 1x only, then it's makes no difference, it only adds to the experience.


It's these little things that make the game.

The original point has somewhat drifted, I originally was sayign how I wanted to see crew members 'fall over dead' to put it bluntly. I hope now we can walk around the sub, we won't suddenly see our crew members vanish into thin air. That would take you right out of your immersion zone. my sentiments exactly, i posted deceased crew members, as a casual off the record topic, and even expressed it so. The sad thing is pepole will rip into you wether or not they agree, just to get there ebb in. if you read my op on the thread, then it suddenly gets ripped into disected, and iam suddenly a morbid butcher with crew members limbs, blood spurts everywhere, etc i laugh now at the time it got heated as they swayed the thread so much with the mention of deceased. Besides all that i entirely agree with you, and golden rivet, with some kind of small caption with a sheet covered ,may i be allowed to say corpse!! as for the point of death, iam not really intrested, but having that slight extra responsibility during the so called quiet times, on 1 compression, makes it that little bit more special, i applaud your tact and wording on this idea toward responses, i wasnt so cool, bravo, :rock: if you intrested read my thread on page 2 called Promotion And Medal Presentation, it brings up some very good and valid points, once again giving that extra little special encentive in this super sim. but once again the old cleche pops up, there ace card, the devs have more to do with there time.

[TDK1044]

If the Captain's log was interactive, then you could make a log entry of a death aboard the sub and leave it at that. :)

[GoldenRivet]

another good point.

[karamazovnew]

if you read my op on the thread, then it suddenly gets ripped into disected, and iam suddenly a morbid butcher with crew members limbs, blood spurts everywhere, etc i laugh now at the time it got heated as they swayed the thread so much with the mention of deceased.

Well your post was a bit morbid as it asked the question of what to do with the bodies and if morale would drop if we kept them in the hot and humid air. However not everyone there made fun and as I said there, in going the FPS way, the devs need to have a solution for crew deaths, injuries and burial at sea. Since their purpose is to make you work with your crew and trust them in war, their deaths also play a role in immersion. I for one can't stop showering my Watch officer and Sonar guy with medals and promotions after each patrol. And sometimes I even care about the engine guys and forward torpedo loaders. I sure put them to work :haha:. I hate to loose them.

[Pacific_Ace]

"in SH3/4 we drive for weeks on end with a "red" dead crewman in a bunk."

I thought I remembered a burial at sea option if you clicked on dead crew in SH3? Or perhaps I am remembering AotD?

[GoldenRivet]

If you are having substantial crew casualties

in the entirety of my SH3 experience... I have probably lost 10 or 12 crewmen in the line of duty.

(excluding of course those patrols which resulted in all hands lost)

In each of those cases, it was almost always a case of air attack.

still, thats 10 to 12 times you would be required to deal with something like this.

[GoldenRivet]

"in SH3/4 we drive for weeks on end with a "red" dead crewman in a bunk."

I thought I remembered a burial at sea option if you clicked on dead crew in SH3? Or perhaps I am remembering AotD?

yes but he just vanishes.

would be nice to witness some sort of fanfare... anything.

also when the actual death occurs in SH3... the 3d rendering of the crewman just vanishes into thin air.

would be nice to see them slump at their stations etc. (nice in the way of eye candy, not nice in the way if their demise)

[Sky999]

yes but he just vanishes.

would be nice to witness some sort of fanfare... anything.

also when the actual death occurs in SH3... the 3d rendering of the crewman just vanishes into thin air.

would be nice to see them slump at their stations etc. (nice in the way of eye candy, not nice in the way if their demise)


BINGO, give this man a cigar! :salute:

I'm talking full frontal seeing them die, we are in the control room during an attack, suddenly a shell rips though and a crew member next to you gets thrown to the floor dead. To compromise I'm willing to accept blood and gore is not needed If it runs the risk of raising the game rating.

That combined with the new FPS would make this game insanely immersive.

Without it there would be a lack of immersion with your crew, we all get attached to certain crew members, especially those who have made it through so many patrols, when so many others may have not come back. To have the game tell you that the guy you have grown attached to as your faithful navigator has just vanished into thin air, is a slap in the face to the immersion the player would have found himself in prior to this.

Maybe I'm an old softy but I have to admit I do get attached and I enjoy promoting my men, knowing who's best at what etc...

Again to have an old sea dog who you have promoted through the ranks, trained and have served with since your first patrol to suddenly just disappear with no mention, or regard for his death is also a slap in the face. I don't mind him dying, but I want there to be some kind of memorial or something. They go to all the effort of animating the crew, then we go to all the effort of promoting then and upgrading their skills, then its just, 'sorry he died, you didn't see it, but it happened... carry on'.

I have been rude and havn't acknowledged a previous poster who mentioned that the ability to see deaths was already implemented in SH4.
If this is true then I am hopeful they will carry it on to SH5, and I hope these deaths were not just viewable on the deck, I hope you could see men die inside the sub as well.

In the end we'll all have to wait and see what the devs implement. It's probably too late in the development for them to change it, but I hope they read this thread and take people's opinions onboard.

[GoldenRivet]

of course its not that we want to see our men die.

its just that - in the event that they do die during patrol... its incredibly detracting from the sense of realism for them to just suddenly be GONE without a trace.

imagine all the call of duty games - if the soldier next to you takes a hit - he doesnt just go *POOF* into thin air.

[gordonmull]

Flipping heck folks. This is about WAR. People die.

From this and another similar thread, some people seem to think that you sail about launching bunches of flowers at ships, there's an explosion of petals and everybody gets whisked away in an invisible silver cloud to a paradise.

A u-boat simulator should simulate war. If I go on a war patrol I expect my men may get wounded or killed, although I hope they will not and I will work hard to make sure they stay healthy. The reality is that in this theatre of war, as most of us know, three quarters of the crews did not return. I doubt it was pleasant for them to see their comrades and friends having bits blown off them and getting washed overboard and countless other horrors.

Death should be in the game. It's the whole purpose of being at war. You're out to kill the enemy or be killed.

And I am not an eye candy, X-box junkie that needs gore .(Currently about to start replaying Elite FYI :smug:). Still I'd also say it's not a MAJOR fault if a bit of 'Oh hell Frehnsenn just got his head removed by shrapnel' was missed out. I just think it would be more immersive with it in.

Phew!! Rant over!

[GoldenRivet]

Flipping heck

http://images.fanpop.com/images/image_uploads/Napoleon-Dynamite-napoleon-dynamite-117747_356_367.jpg

[irish1958]

I'll tell you this: if that idiot watch officer doesn't get his ass out of the rack and get up on deck when the boat surfaces, we won't have to simulate his demise.:arrgh!:

[Lord Justice]

here here, a theatre of war.:salute:

[Task Force]

I always thought that that was stupid, that even in SH4 crew didnt actualy have a death animation, just a injured one...

I see nothing rong with death animations... hundreds of other games have them... Im sure it could be optional for those who dont want it...

[Elder-Pirate]

This may not be for the "faint of heart" fans here. :rotfl2:

Although this is not a death scene of Sgt. Baker from "Brothers in Arms-Hell's Highway", I would not mind seeing this of one of my fellow ship mates when he got too close to a shell/shrapnel. Of course for the squeamish of this thread maybe there could be an option for blood/no blood. :arrgh!:

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y116/oleman/PoorBaker-1.jpg

If any of you have played this then you have seen blood and all sorts of body parts laying around but then again that's war.

Sure glad I didn't tell my Skipper of the USS Sarsfield EDD 837 to not have any blood & gore while on our cruise.


EDIT: BTW guess whom the Publisher was for this one?

You got it............UbiSoft.

[ETR3(SS)]

Do we really need two threads going simultaneously about this? :06:

[DarkFish]

imagine all the call of duty games - if the soldier next to you takes a hit - he doesnt just go *POOF* into thin air.
nope, in CoD:WaW you can shoot their limbs off, burn them alive using your flamethrower or stab a bayonette straight through their hearts. And that all with extensively modeled death anims
I always thought that that was stupid, that even in SH4 crew didnt actualy have a death animation, just a injured one...hmm, i recall seing crewmembers lying dead on the deck:hmmm:
or is all that CoD:WaW playing screwing up my memory now already?:rotfl2:

[Task Force]

nope, in CoD:WaW you can shoot their limbs off, burn them alive using your flamethrower or stab a bayonette straight through their hearts. And that all with extensively modeled death anims
hmm, i recall seing crewmembers lying dead on the deck:hmmm:
or is all that CoD:WaW playing screwing up my memory now already?:rotfl2:

no, just a injured... every fiew seconds they would act like they are looseing there balance...

[Elder-Pirate]

Do we really need two threads going simultaneously about this? :06:



No, you go to the other one and we will stay here.:arrgh!:

[Webster]

Do we really need two threads going simultaneously about this? :06:

agreed, but i dont want to close it so this thread was merged with "Deceased Crew Members" thread

[GoldenRivet]

agreed, but i dont want to close it so this thread was merged with "Deceased Crew Members" thread

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWaLxFIVX1s

:haha:

[JScones]

From this and another similar thread, some people seem to think that you sail about launching bunches of flowers at ships, there's an explosion of petals and everybody gets whisked away in an invisible silver cloud to a paradise.
:rotfl2: Oh man, that is priceless. :up:

[Pacific_Ace]

yes but he just vanishes.

would be nice to witness some sort of fanfare... anything.

also when the actual death occurs in SH3... the 3d rendering of the crewman just vanishes into thin air.

would be nice to see them slump at their stations etc. (nice in the way of eye candy, not nice in the way if their demise)

Ahh ok. It's interesting to me how many people take the way crew deaths are to be handled very seriously and I have to admit its something Ive never thought much on.

@ Gordonmull: This " From this and another similar thread, some people seem to think that you sail about launching bunches of flowers at ships, there's an explosion of petals and everybody gets whisked away in an invisible silver cloud to a paradise." is totally brilliant! :salute:

[Lord Justice]

Ahh ok. It's interesting to me how many people take the way crew deaths are to be handled very seriously and I have to admit its something Ive never thought much on.
A fine volley of words, when you kill a man it costs nothing to be polite, after all we captains indeed have thier blood on our hands, poor fellow.:salute:

[PL_Andrev]

The captain is a member of the uboat crew.
Can the captain (player) be vulnerable to injury / death from artillery fire, deck fire, explosions of depth charges?

[GoldenRivet]

The captain is a member of the uboat crew.
Can the captain (player) be vulnerable to injury / death from artillery fire, deck fire, explosions of depth charges?

In all previous versions of SH he was impervious to enemy fire...

It would be nice to see that changed in SH5, but it's not something im counting on, nor is it something i would consider a "deal breaker" if this feature was not included.

[Lord Justice]

The captain is a member of the uboat crew.
Can the captain (player) be vulnerable to injury / death from artillery fire, deck fire, explosions of depth charges? Off the record, then quite simply i fear the sim would reach a calamitous end. You do present a fair question, that said would the devs agree to such an absurd halt to all thier work? For the record, unfortunately i cannot give a definitive answer, sorry.:)

[gordonmull]

The captain is a member of the uboat crew.
Can the captain (player) be vulnerable to injury / death from artillery fire, deck fire, explosions of depth charges?

It would make sense. I hope the devs will include something like this because it's facet of realism, although I don't see it happening. I do reckon it could be pretty frustrating sometimes though e.g. a 2 year career ended by a stray bullet.

Incidentally does anyone know if many RL kaleuns were KIA without the loss of their boat?

[GoldenRivet]

It did happen though however rare.

found this one:

http://www.uboat.net/men/muetzelburg.htm

There was also the commander who killed himself during patrol aboard U-505.

But in my brief research i had trouble finding a large number of Kaleuns who died at sea without the loss of the boat.

as an option in SH5... it would be something that would be a one in a million thing to have happen... but it might serve to make players more cautious in surfacing next to a DD to duke it out with guns.

[gordonmull]

Unlucky. Not even in combat.

I agree - in game it would certainly make you think twice after it happened once!

[mookiemookie]

But in my brief research i had trouble finding a large number of Kaleuns who died at sea without the loss of the boat.


Commander casualties without the boat being lost:



Radke of U-657 was killed during training
Rasch of U-106 was wounded in '42
Muetzelburg was killed as you mentioned
Cremer of U-333 was wounded in '42
Neubert of U-167 was wounded in '43
Saar of U-957 was killed
Reeder of U-214 was wounded in '43
Zetzsche of U-591 was wounded in '43
Lauzemis of U-68 was wounded in '43
Hartmann of U-441 was wounded in '43 (along with every other officer)
Markworth of U-66 was wounded in '43
Kluth of U-377 was wounded in '43
Techand of U-731 was wounded in '43
Krueger of U-631 broke his hand in '43
Zschech of U-505 killed himself
Heinrich of U-960 was wounded in '44
Leu of U-921 was killed doing the same thing as Howard Gilmore on the U.S. side....saved his boat by getting everyone down the hatch but was too wounded to make it down himself and so told them to "take her down" without him.
von Roithberg of U-989 was wounded in '44
Heinrich of U-299 was wounded in '44
Riekeberg of U-637 killed himself after being wounded in '45
Bungards of U-3012 was wounded and later died during training
Wachter of U-2503 was killed in '45

[GoldenRivet]

Commander casualties without the boat being lost:



Radke of U-657 was killed during training
Rasch of U-106 was wounded in '42
Muetzelburg was killed as you mentioned
Cremer of U-333 was wounded in '42
Neubert of U-167 was wounded in '43
Saar of U-957 was killed
Reeder of U-214 was wounded in '43
Zetzsche of U-591 was wounded in '43
Lauzemis of U-68 was wounded in '43
Hartmann of U-441 was wounded in '43 (along with every other officer)
Markworth of U-66 was wounded in '43
Kluth of U-377 was wounded in '43
Techand of U-731 was wounded in '43
Krueger of U-631 broke his hand in '43
Zschech of U-505 killed himself
Heinrich of U-960 was wounded in '44
Leu of U-921 was killed doing the same thing as Howard Gilmore on the U.S. side....saved his boat by getting everyone down the hatch but was too wounded to make it down himself and so told them to "take her down" without him.
von Roithberg of U-989 was wounded in '44
Heinrich of U-299 was wounded in '44
Riekeberg of U-637 killed himself after being wounded in '45
Bungards of U-3012 was wounded and later died during training
Wachter of U-2503 was killed in '45



This list is a bit misleading... as it includes suicides, deaths by accidents some of which occurred while ashore or during training activities and injuries while at sea.

The criteria as I understand it to be is:

Commander of the boat Died or was killed at sea on a combat mission leaving the rest of the crew to return to base on their own (with an acting commander)

That list should look more like this IMHO


Muetzelburg was killed as you mentioned
Saar of U-957 was killed
Zschech of U-505 killed himself
Leu of U-921 was killed doing the same thing as Howard Gilmore on the U.S. side....saved his boat by getting everyone down the hatch but was too wounded to make it down himself and so told them to "take her down" without him.
Riekeberg of U-637 killed himself after being wounded in '45
Wachter of U-2503 was killed in '45

[mookiemookie]

I specifically left off accidents while ashore and only a couple of these cases were during training. The vast majority were injuries or deaths suffered on war patrol.

[sourisnoir]

In SH3 I spend my time happily and completely immersed in the act and art of destroying enemy shipping and then trying to get away alive. It was only when the boat was sinking that I wished that I'd paid more attention to damage control specialist Hans.

I never really gave this situation much thought until this thread - but I think that as the SH series moves toward FPS graphics and crew representation it will become increasing impossible to keep them out of MY experience - whether I like it or not.

Years ago I did play another classic sim in which the crew got alot of my attention and I did feel somewhat attached to them. When they got hurt or killed it had an immediate impact on the mission. I think that a look-back at the way that sim handled injury and death is interesting. Here's a montage I found on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCvO99Kl92Q (Ignore the first 30 seconds or so)

The 'medic' graphical interface and the written dialogue is interesting as well.

Stallwort

[GoldenRivet]

I specifically left off accidents while ashore and only a couple of these cases were during training. The vast majority were injuries or deaths suffered on war patrol.

I realized this after re-reading more of the info on U-boat.net

however, some of those injuries seemed rather minor... in other words, a few of those injuries would not have prevented the Kaleun from commanding the boat.

the question which originated this facet of the discussion more or less was... can the commander be killed? or injured so severely that you will no longer be able to command the boat

[mookiemookie]

however, some of those injuries seemed rather minor... in other words, a few of those injuries would not have prevented the Kaleun from commanding the boat.

Sure. I was just being nitpicky. :O:

[Lord Justice]

however, some of those injuries seemed rather minor... in other words, a few of those injuries would not have prevented the Kaleun from commanding the boat.

the question which originated this facet of the discussion more or less was... can the commander be killed? or injured so severely that you will no longer be able to command the boat 10 days into patrol, "Oh no, came all this way, to get shot by a bullet from berlin, ZEISLER shoot the damn aircrafts"!! :)

[Sniper297]

MookieMookie pretty much covered my take on this;

"Because it's getting bogged down in minutiae that doesn't serve any real purpose"

I play a bunch of different simulators, including flight sims and train sims, and the micro crew management I had seen previously in one of the attack helicopter sims - too tedious to be any fun. I forget whether it was SH2 or SH3, but in one of them I thought the whole thing was ludicrous - if I'm supposed to be the captain, I expect my officers and chiefs to set some kind of watchbill instead of me personally having to tell each man when he's supposed to go to sleep.

The most recent train simulator I'm playing they also got bogged down in minutiae that doesn't serve any real purpose - huge focus on the doors of passenger cars opening and animated people walking on and off the train when stopped at a station, and they spent so much development time on that they left out assorted physics and freight train operations.

To me this is the same thing, I don't care about the gore one way or the other but for realism it's about as necessary as simulating picayune details like crewmen brushing their teeth or representing all the scraping and repainting of the boat.

[PL_Andrev]

To me this is the same thing, I don't care about the gore one way or the other but for realism it's about as necessary as simulating picayune details like crewmen brushing their teeth or representing all the scraping and repainting of the boat.

Except that in SH you actually have 4 types of actions:
- Mission briefing
- Test ship (tightness, damage in the draft)
- Contact with the enemy (attack or escape)
- Special mission objective (recon, supplies, spies)

Everything else is "time compression x8192 - there is no place for swimming in the ocean, personal hygiene, consumption and cleaning the deck.

But possibility of injury / death of the captain (player) is part of the attack the enemy or your - this detail should be implemented.

This is senseless when you attack a merchant with high number of AA guns. Merchant's crew kill all your crew on the deck but the captain (you) stands at the gun, and shots to the ship again and again...

[JScones]

If I'm stupid enough to stand on the bridge and watch approaching aeroplanes then I deserve to "die" in much the same fashion that my watch crew does.

[karamazovnew]

True... Although I propose we have enough health to survive a few rounds. Maybe even a direct hit from a DD. I also think that crew deaths should be better implemented on our target ships. Heroic allies manning the guns amidst a wall of flame and direct deck gun and aa gun fire is just stupid.

[Apocal]

I forget whether it was SH2 or SH3, but in one of them I thought the whole thing was ludicrous - if I'm supposed to be the captain, I expect my officers and chiefs to set some kind of watchbill instead of me personally having to tell each man when he's supposed to go to sleep.

Fixed in SH4. Minor issues with how damage and crew are handled when topside areas are 'hit' while submerged, but it's a fairly realistic depiction of Condition III manning.

The only real issue I have with SH4's crew management is that it's possible and desirable to have a boat full of nothing but chiefs and officers. But that's pretty minor, more or less eye candy, it just happens to bother me personally.

[Lord Justice]

If I'm stupid enough to stand on the bridge and watch approaching aeroplanes then I deserve to "die" in much the same fashion that my watch crew does. Sir JScones, if i may be so blunt to ask for redress of this rhetorical statement? as iam indeed somewhat befuddled. Thank you.:hmmm:

[GoldenRivet]

MookieMookie pretty much covered my take on this;

"Because it's getting bogged down in minutiae that doesn't serve any real purpose"

I play a bunch of different simulators, including flight sims and train sims, and the micro crew management I had seen previously in one of the attack helicopter sims - too tedious to be any fun. I forget whether it was SH2 or SH3, but in one of them I thought the whole thing was ludicrous - if I'm supposed to be the captain, I expect my officers and chiefs to set some kind of watchbill instead of me personally having to tell each man when he's supposed to go to sleep.

The most recent train simulator I'm playing they also got bogged down in minutiae that doesn't serve any real purpose - huge focus on the doors of passenger cars opening and animated people walking on and off the train when stopped at a station, and they spent so much development time on that they left out assorted physics and freight train operations.

To me this is the same thing, I don't care about the gore one way or the other but for realism it's about as necessary as simulating picayune details like crewmen brushing their teeth or representing all the scraping and repainting of the boat.

Here is where i respectfully submit that you are mistaken.

We [those who support this idea] are not talking about telling the men when to eat, sleep, have fun, attack etc.

that is not at all what this conversation is about.

this conversation is about two things

1. If i am standing next to my watch officer and an errant bullet strikes him dead should he...

A. Vanish into Thin Air in an instant

B. Blink red and white and have little "X"s placed over his eyes with a frownie face

C. Fall dead on the spot and begin to spew blood from the wound.

2. Once the character in game has died do you...

A. Simply select a "burial at sea" option and he vanishes from the roster and crew management screen

B. Click a "burial at sea" option and when you surface next... a 10 second animation of the burial will be shown

C. Leave him laying in the bunk for the remainder of the patrol

The correct answers are 1C and 2B [Could go either way between A&B]

We dont want to organize a funeral party, pick out the floral arrangment, coordinate a candle light vigil at local sunset or any of that goofy crap

but when the man next to you is killed - for realisms sake - YOU SHOULD SEE HIM DIE!

simple as that.

I could give a crap about the "funeral' or "burial at sea" - who cares - but when Im standing on the bridge at 1x compression... and a plane streaks out of nowhere spewing 40mm machine gun fire onto the watch tower... MEN - WILL - DIE... and when they do i dont want them to simply *POOF* out of existance... they should fall dead on the deck.

thats the point a lot of us are trying to make

[Lord Justice]

but when the man next to you is killed - for realisms sake - YOU SHOULD SEE HIM DIE!

simple as that.

I could give a crap about the "funeral' or "burial at sea" - who cares - but when Im standing on the bridge at 1x compression... and a plane streaks out of nowhere spewing 40mm machine gun fire onto the watch tower... MEN - WILL - DIE... and when they do i dont want them to simply *POOF* out of existance... they should fall dead on the deck.

thats the point a lot of us are trying to make Sir golden rivet, thankyou for showing such intrest, clearly you are a learned member with strong opinions, and indeed you may. Iam in agreement with most of your points, but one has to wonder! what then is to be become of the deceased crew member? now a vagabond hitching a lift, will you simply submerge, to save the burial? :hmmm:

[GoldenRivet]

what then is to be become of the deceased crew member? now a vagabond hitching a lift, will you simply submerge, to save the burial? :hmmm:

I would imagine that you would simply snap out a quick salute as you slam the hatch and go under.

make a note in the log "Burial was at sea" and thats all anyone else has to know about.

[Sniper297]

Oh, I agree with the principle, it's just a question of how far do you want to take it, and what would you be willing to sacrifice to get it? There's always a limit to these things, "Daikatana" and "Battlecruiser 3000AD" are famous examples of computer game flops that got bogged down in unimportant details while attempting to simulate everything. If you change to the external cam and get close to the target, you see men standing on deck who are suddenly laying down dead as soon as the torpedo hits - lame, but that's how it's programmed, men standing up and men laying down. Gun crews are also silly, the target is "destroyed" so the gun returns to the straight position, if it rolls over they cling like flies to the vertical deck until the gun goes under water, then they disappear.

Question is how much development time and kilobytes should be allocated to that type of animation? Half a dozen or so animation frames of the men falling down in between the standing up and laying down good enough, or do we want ultra realistic death agonies for each of the crewman? Should the gunners continue firing as long as the gun is above water and reasonably level for a while, then abandon ship? Do we want oil soaked men swimming around in the water along with the lifeboats? If the developers have to take a year to do all that and leave out the wolfpacks, is that what we want?

That's what this discussion is really about, and why some think the premise is silly, how much of available resources should be devoted to something that you're gonna watch once, say "cool!", and then never bother to look at again? It's really about compromise and what is and is not important to the actual gameplay, and you'll never get complete agreement from all hands on that for any game.

[Sky999]

Here is where i respectfully submit that you are mistaken.

We [those who support this idea] are not talking about telling the men when to eat, sleep, have fun, attack etc.

that is not at all what this conversation is about.

this conversation is about two things

1. If i am standing next to my watch officer and an errant bullet strikes him dead should he...

A. Vanish into Thin Air in an instant

B. Blink red and white and have little "X"s placed over his eyes with a frownie face

C. Fall dead on the spot and begin to spew blood from the wound.

2. Once the character in game has died do you...

A. Simply select a "burial at sea" option and he vanishes from the roster and crew management screen

B. Click a "burial at sea" option and when you surface next... a 10 second animation of the burial will be shown

C. Leave him laying in the bunk for the remainder of the patrol

The correct answers are 1C and 2B [Could go either way between A&B]

We dont want to organize a funeral party, pick out the floral arrangment, coordinate a candle light vigil at local sunset or any of that goofy crap

but when the man next to you is killed - for realisms sake - YOU SHOULD SEE HIM DIE!

simple as that.

I could give a crap about the "funeral' or "burial at sea" - who cares - but when Im standing on the bridge at 1x compression... and a plane streaks out of nowhere spewing 40mm machine gun fire onto the watch tower... MEN - WILL - DIE... and when they do i dont want them to simply *POOF* out of existance... they should fall dead on the deck.

thats the point a lot of us are trying to make

You said it all man, you said it all. This is the point so many of us are trying to make, read this post carefully, this guy get's it.

[gordonmull]

Sniper 297: It boils down to the fact that there are crew on deck on enemy ships and the player uboat. All I'd like to see is a graphical representation of healthy/wounded/dead. I don't care if the anims are a bit naff - as long as the visual indicator is there (SHVI and VII can take care of the finer points!). Men dying is not a suplerfluous part of war, it is the whole point of war.

As far as Ai vessels go I'd far rather a DD, burning from bow to stern, with dead men hanging off the guns, even if it's the same dead men on every gun on every DD as long as I don't have to put up with the asbestos lined DD gunners we have in SH3 who seem to be still capable of ripping me apart while they are being slow roasted.

Just a thought - it would be nice if the crew on target ships were not only destructible but able to be suppressed with the flak, or dare I say it, a machine gun brought up to the bridge. Pipe dreams, I know...

[Zonke]

Sniper 297: It boils down to the fact that there are crew on deck on enemy ships and the player uboat. All I'd like to see is a graphical representation of healthy/wounded/dead. I don't care if the anims are a bit naff - as long as the visual indicator is there (SHVI and VII can take care of the finer points!). Men dying is not a suplerfluous part of war, it is the whole point of war.

As far as Ai vessels go I'd far rather a DD, burning from bow to stern, with dead men hanging off the guns, even if it's the same dead men on every gun on every DD as long as I don't have to put up with the asbestos lined DD gunners we have in SH3 who seem to be still capable of ripping me apart while they are being slow roasted.

Just a thought - it would be nice if the crew on target ships were not only destructible but able to be suppressed with the flak, or dare I say it, a machine gun brought up to the bridge. Pipe dreams, I know...

I fully agree!! Such things as AI gunners not being able to use a gun engulfed in flames would be nice. These things are certainly not just eye candy since a DD burning badly might make the decision to surface and finish him with the gun sensible..
The visual representasion of people die'ing does'nt matter to me very much, as long as they die when they would do so in real life.

I'd very much like if the captain (me/you) could die as well, the career does'nt have to end in that case though you'd simply continue playing as the second in command I think. When you get to port you either "recruit" a new captain or promote the second in command to captain..

[gordonmull]

I'd very much like if the captain (me/you) could die as well, the career does'nt have to end in that case though you'd simply continue playing as the second in command I think. When you get to port you either "recruit" a new captain or promote the second in command to captain..

I like that idea. Losing a valued captain would be quite a blow to the boat.

...but I also like DiD!

Either/both would be options to have.

[TarJak]

The issue of deaduns is already well dealt with in most FPS shooters. Guy gets hit he falls down dead, end of story for that character. No need for additional gore etc. Effectively the same could be done for drownings etc. althought that might just look a little weird unless there is visible 3d compartment flooding.

What happens in SHV is the more interesting question. Do you a) have a 2d management screen to "bury" the corpse> or b) have a 3d FPS burial process of some kind?

I'd be happy with option a for simplicities sake as I don't think it needs to be any more detailed than that. Ditch the body in the 2d screen and the deadun is no longer there in FP view.

[GoldenRivet]

What happens in SHV is the more interesting question. Do you a) have a 2d management screen to "bury" the corpse> or b) have a 3d FPS burial process of some kind?

I'd be happy with option a for simplicities sake as I don't think it needs to be any more detailed than that. Ditch the body in the 2d screen and the deadun is no longer there in FP view.


Either way would be fine with me... as long as the deadun can be seen in the act of transition from "Live-un" to "dead-un" i think the issue would be settled.

[Lord Justice]

What happens in SHV is the more interesting question. Do you a) have a 2d management screen to "bury" the corpse> or b) have a 3d FPS burial process of some kind?

I'd be happy with option a for simplicities sake as I don't think it needs to be any more detailed than that. Ditch the body in the 2d screen and the deadun is no longer there in FP view. Sir TarJak, This answer you speak of is almost why i started the thread. A quick burial scene must be included. Quite simply it happened, and its respectfull. If one chooses to add to the thread then so be it and thankyou. Very content now, no pun intended, but i perhaps feel its time to put a lid on it. lol Special thankyou from me to Webster for merging, and keeping it open for debate. :yeah:

[looney]

How did "B17 2 - The mighty eight" handle it?

It had it flaws but crew management wise it ruled.

personally I'd say:
-no gore
-dead/heavily wounded in bunk (maybe with or without sheet over his head)
-in 1st person view, a dead or wounded man should collapse and perhaps with an icon show if he is dead or wounded. Then give an order to put him on a bunk to get a crew member administre 1st aid.
-On crew management screen an option to bury at sea with either 2d view or a short 3d sequence (option).

[GoldenRivet]

I found B-17 the mighty eighth to have excellent crew managment.

If you put it on anything less than "full autonomous" it could be a rather tedious task in managing the crew.

for example, if a fire breaks out in the radio room... the radio operator is NOT going to just sit there in real life and wait for orders to fight the fire.

thats one thing i didnt like about it.

however, i do agree with you on B-17TME... great crew managment.

If a crew member was killed or seriously wounded, another crew member would drag him out of his crew position and sit him somewhere close by.

the wounded man would just sit there, sort of slumped over and unresponsive.

[looney]

I found B-17 the mighty eighth to have excellent crew managment.

If you put it on anything less than "full autonomous" it could be a rather tedious task in managing the crew.

for example, if a fire breaks out in the radio room... the radio operator is NOT going to just sit there in real life and wait for orders to fight the fire.

thats one thing i didnt like about it.

however, i do agree with you on B-17TME... great crew managment.

If a crew member was killed or seriously wounded, another crew member would drag him out of his crew position and sit him somewhere close by.

the wounded man would just sit there, sort of slumped over and unresponsive.

Yups that was what I meant I don't need perfect death struggle from my crew but somethin more than a small picture would be great. And like others stated we don't suffer that many dead crew (all or nothing mostly, but until catastrophical sinking no dead) Mostly from watchcrew/gunners, inside almost never. So a simple collapsing inside (and perhaps outside) is more than enough. Then a simple dragging to the conning tower and after that in his bunk, the sick normal dead with blanket over his head. Perhaps with a crewmember administring first aid (from behind only seeing small movements of his hands etc etc).

P.s. I haven't played B17 2 in ages so i can't remember all :)