Really Irritating

[Knox]

Hey Guys,

Something is reallllly irritating me since I have jumped into the Pacific Theater(SH4). That is magnetic detonation or contact influence as it is called in SH4.

I remember the magnetic detonation in SH3, so I know I need to send a fish in on the contact influence setting about 5 meters below the enemy's hull/keel. Then boom, right?

Not really. I've spent a good amount of time trying to get under the keel detonations and ALL of my torpedo's run right under the keel and do nothing! I've tried setting it to contact only but it still does nothing. I am using MK 14 Torps.

Was this pose to be fixed in patch 1.4?(I am not running the UBoat addon). Or is there a fix somewhere?

I want some cool keel shots...:cry:

[Rockin Robbins]

Cool keel shots with American torpedoes are about the same as cool keel shots in German U-Boats: almost forget about it. Both had similar magnetic exploders in real life. Neither worked and both sides ended up shutting the blasted things off because they couldn't fix them.

The American Mark 14 had three separate defects at the start of the war. You see, it was a copy of the German torpedo and it was copied so well that they copied its defects too! The Germans, however, fixed those problems back in 1939, while the Americans tested their whiz bang magnetic detector exactly twice (one of those times it failed to work), assumed the torpedo would work just the same with a warhead full of water as it would work with twice the weight of explosive, and a couple of other defects the Germans had. It was the middle of 1943 before the American torpedoes worked right.

In the meantime, COMSUBPAC says you're to blame there and if you would just shoot your torpedoes accurately you'd get some hits. You know, back in Groton you showed promise in training school. If you'd just apply that knowledge instead of getting all rattled out there, you'd be getting your booms. Maybe you're just not command material? BUORD also sends their regards and agrees that it is all your fault, you incompetent dufus.

Pssssst! Captain, if you shut down your magnetic pistol and set those puppies on the surface, your aim will suddenly get better. Don't say I told you!

[Munchausen]

:cool: In other words, it's not a bug in the game. It's a simulation of how U.S. torpedoes actually functioned (or failed to function) during various periods of the war. Btw, you can successfully use magnetic exploders if you follow instructions outlined elsewhere in this forum.

[AVGWarhawk]

Now you can sense the frustration the skippers had.

[Knox]

Guess I am just used to Magnetic Detonation in SH3, where it ALWAYS worked.

I guess I will stick with contact :hmmm: :-?

[SteamWake]

A few other 'flaws' with the Mk14 you should be aware of.

A high failure rate when set to 'fast' speed.

A high failure rate when contacting its target at 90 degrees.

----->| doink ----->/ Kaboom

They always run lower than what you set them for due to the erronious test results RR pointed out.

So set em shallow, slow, and at an angle :salute:

We are lucky enough to know all this. Imagine how the skippers felt back in the day when everyone was telling them "Theres nothing wrong with the equipment its the operator at fault".

[Rockin Robbins]

Guess I am just used to Magnetic Detonation in SH3, where it ALWAYS worked.

I guess I will stick with contact :hmmm: :-?

By the way, German magnetic detectors were at least as bad as ours and SH3 is badly inaccurate on that one. Also, U-Boats had roughly the same constraints on firing multiple torpedoes as we did.

No two torpedoes were allowed to be fired less than about ten seconds apart. There were no SH3 style spreads. The reasoning was the same on both sides. A premature explosion with all torps fired together would explode all the torpedoes in the spread, making a spectacular dinner bell for all escorts in the area for no possible gain for the sub. With torps a sufficient distance apart, a single premature explosion had no bearing on whether the others in the spread hit and damaged their target. At least then when the sub got plastered they could feel like they earned it!

SH3 is full of similar bugs that never get any mention at all. It is as if because the subject is a U-Boat no flaws are allowed to be acknowledged in the game at all. I never could understand that attitude.

By the same token, the devs corrected many of those bugs in SH4 and have only received grief as players compare game behavior with the "perfect" SH3. Most peculiar!

[SteamWake]

Dont forget the occassional circle runner ;)

[looney]

Dumb question, what is the so called 'fan'shot Herbert A Werner is talking about in Iron Coffins? I always thought they where salvo shots.

Thus different gyroangles according to the 'fan'setting on the TDC? I know the Commander or 1WO would call the fire and the torpedo men would press the lever to fire.

[nikimcbee]

I believe the German magnetic torps were hypersensitive. (See Norwiegan Campaign)

Fan shot vs Salvo. The (Faecher?) shot was a shot where they fired all 4 tubes at over lapping targets, hoping to hit one if the others missed. I know what you're talking about, I can look it up at home when I get off work.:know:

[nikimcbee]

Plus, the mk 18 was a copy of the kraut eel G7e, so geuss what, it had the same problems:doh:

[nikimcbee]

If you want a good source for torp problems, see Clay Blair's U-boat War vol 1 or Silent Victory(?) for US. It goes into A LOT of detail regarding torp issues.:salute:

[Jten]

At close ranges I'll improvise a spread with 5 degrees rudder at 1-2 knots and zero gyro angle as I start firing. Right/left rudder depends on target motion.

[SteamWake]

At close ranges I'll improvise a spread with 5 degrees rudder at 1-2 knots and zero gyro angle as I start firing. Right/left rudder depends on target motion.

Hey thats pretty aswome never thought of that. ! :salute:

[Sailor Steve]

That is magnetic detonation or contact influence as it is called in SH4.

I remember the magnetic detonation in SH3, so I know I need to send a fish in on the contact influence setting about 5 meters below the enemy's hull/keel. Then boom, right?

Not really. I've spent a good amount of time trying to get under the keel detonations and ALL of my torpedo's run right under the keel and do nothing! I've tried setting it to contact only but it still does nothing. I am using MK 14 Torps.
Unless I'm missing something and nobody else noticed it, there's a major flaw in your assumption. Magnetic is "Influence", and contact is contact. You may be using both, which is normal, but if you have it set to Contact only then the magnetic is disabled, and you need to actually hit the target to make it work. Five meters below will never explode.

[Knox]

Unless I'm missing something and nobody else noticed it, there's a major flaw in your assumption. Magnetic is "Influence", and contact is contact. You may be using both, which is normal, but if you have it set to Contact only then the magnetic is disabled, and you need to actually hit the target to make it work. Five meters below will never explode.


I am setting it to contact Influence, not contact.

I wasn't aware of the horrible torpedo efficiency, and the fact that it was not accurate in SHIII.

Is there acoustic torpedoes in this game?(I assume not..).

Thanks guys! :up:

[Ducimus]

I am setting it to contact Influence, not contact.


Contact/influence (or magnetic) means that both pistol types are active. it will explode on contact, OR by magnetic field. Also remember your dealing with feet with the imperial system, not so much as meters. US specs for various settings were in feet. 5 meters is entirely too deep, that's roughly 15 feet, and the torpedo would under run the target. 1 to 2 meters is what your looking for ( 3 to 6 feet)


I wasn't aware of the horrible torpedo efficiency, and the fact that it was not accurate in SHIII.

Oh yes, it's one of the greatest scandals in the history of warfare. Wiki page if your interested:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_14_torpedo

Page on German problems
http://www.uboat.net/history/torpedo_crisis.htm
Main difference is the germans weren't mired in buearcratic BS and got the problem solved much quicker:



Is there acoustic torpedoes in this game?(I assume not..).


You assume much. :D The US acoustic homing torpedo (http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WTUS_WWII.htm) (scroll down to "mark 27") was based on a nasty ASW weapon used during the war that does not appear in SH3. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_24_Mine)

[Rockin Robbins]

The Germans also took that torpedo to war in 1939. They had a three year head start to find and fix the problems. But they did have all the defects identified and fixed still in 1939. Took us 18 months of war to get the job done for pretty much identical defects.

[Knox]

Contact/influence (or magnetic) means that both pistol types are active. it will explode on contact, OR by magnetic field. Also remember your dealing with feet with the imperial system, not so much as meters. US specs for various settings were in feet. 5 meters is entirely too deep, that's roughly 15 feet, and the torpedo would under run the target. 1 to 2 meters is what your looking for ( 3 to 6 feet)



Oh yes, it's one of the greatest scandals in the history of warfare. Wiki page if your interested:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_14_torpedo

Page on German problems
http://www.uboat.net/history/torpedo_crisis.htm
Main difference is the germans weren't mired in buearcratic BS and got the problem solved much quicker:




You assume much. :D The US acoustic homing torpedo (http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WTUS_WWII.htm) (scroll down to "mark 27") was based on a nasty ASW weapon used during the war that does not appear in SH3. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_24_Mine)


I'm going to have to thank you Ducimus. :yeah: Sometimes I overlook certain things. One being that SHIV uses imperial units, therefore I was setting the depth VERY high.

I fired up the torpedo training mission to test my errors. I came up with this:

http://i33.tinypic.com/14j4zsh.jpg

According to the recognition manual, Draft is 22. I tried a few settings. Set the running depth at 24 for torpedo 1, 23 for 2, and 22 for 3.

Torpedo's 2 and 3 hit. That(above) was the result of torpedo 3 running at the ships keel depth. I suppose the torpedo's not so good reliability ran it deeper.

But, that is the closest I have come to a keel shot, and probably the closest I will ever come.

Now only if I could get the ships to sink a little slower(but not as slow as NSM).

[SteamWake]

Is there acoustic torpedoes in this game?(I assume not..).

Thanks guys! :up:

Yes there are, there horribly slow and have the pesky little flaw of picking yourself up as a target. :cool:

RR has a little trick called 'cutie on a leash' but I will let him describe it.

I personally have never had much luck with them other than just lobbing them out into the middle of a convoy once they have broken up.

[Sailor Steve]

The Germans also took that torpedo to war in 1939. They had a three year head start to find and fix the problems. But they did have all the defects identified and fixed still in 1939. Took us 18 months of war to get the job done for pretty much identical defects.
Actually the German magnetic exploder problem wasn't solved until December 1942, over three years after the problem first cropped up.
http://www.uboat.net/history/torpedo_crisis.htm

The Germans also had problems with depth-keeping, and also with higher-ups blaming the kaleuns for making excuses for bad shooting. And the Germans experienced a roughly 25% failure rate with the early magnetic exploders.
http://www.uboataces.com/articles-wooden-torpedoes.shtml