View Full Version : are our silent hunter games really realistic?
cjbeattie
11-15-09, 07:31 PM
Hi guys
If this has been asked and answered then I apologize in advance…
I was watching the convoy attack scene from 'Das Boot' the other night and what is very noticeable is how un-accurate our sims have it !
Pressing the torpedo button to release the actual torpedo? According to 'Das Boot' the captain doesn’t have buttons to release the torpedoes..
If Das boot is accurate then we need also the crew to convoy your orders through the ship until the torpedo is fired… Having this will make the game so much more realistic..
With number 5 being through the eyes of the captain I think these questions have to be answered..
If the crew look at you like in the video (and that isnt just sales-spin) then that will be very creepy!!!
CJB:)
Torplexed
11-15-09, 07:49 PM
Hi guys
If this has been asked and answered then I apologize in advance…
I was watching the convoy attack scene from 'Das Boot' the other night and what is very noticeable is how un-accurate our sims have it !
Pressing the torpedo button to release the actual torpedo? According to 'Das Boot' the captain doesn’t have buttons to release the torpedoes..
If Das boot is accurate then we need also the crew to convoy your orders through the ship until the torpedo is fired… Having this will make the game so much more realistic..
I always considered pressing the button the same thing as giving the order. It's not like there are innumerable corridors, stairwells and bulkheads between you giving the order and somebody pressing the switch in real life. Your orders don't have that far to be conveyed. Frankly, no sim can ever be very realistic as sitting comfortably behind a keyboard you are rather far divorced from the difficult strains and conditions of wartime shipboard life.
Takeda Shingen
11-15-09, 08:17 PM
Also, be advised that Das Boot, although accurate by cinematic standards, is anything but a moving textbook. Be careful when using it as citation.
Torplexed
11-15-09, 08:37 PM
Maybe it's just me, but I fail to understand the reverence that 'Das Boot' seems to elicit from many on this site. It's almost as if it were a religion to some. Where does that come from? :hmmm:
Me neither. I always enjoyed the movie/mini-series, but always enjoyed the novel it's based on more. It's my understanding that Das Boot author Lothar-Günther Buchheim had some differences with the film's script, but that could be due to his difficult personality too. However, Das Boot like a lot of WW2 films, accurate and inaccurate tend to draw people into the subject matter.
Stormfly
11-15-09, 09:22 PM
...its allready modded, i added a more realistic torpedo launch process (chain of command sounds and fireing delay) to our CSP Special Edition of LSH3 V4 :smug:
SteamWake
11-15-09, 09:28 PM
Wait a minute... which is more realistic.. A movie or a game :hmmm:
Frankly I believe both take 'libertys'.
Hylander_1314
11-15-09, 09:56 PM
Well, all simulators or games can do, i they are done correctly, is give you a rough in of what it was like to go out and do this stuff. We lack the stench, the pale skin from week upon week of lack of being in the sun, the food rotting the salt spray and all the things that went with the job that we are spared, unless someone is very extreme in how they play the game. But then I would have to say, you need a girlfriend, or boyfriend depending on gender and or preferences, or have way tooooooo much free time on your hands. So in the end there is really no way a game or simulator can realistically capture every little detail. It is impossible.
mookiemookie
11-15-09, 10:14 PM
We can hope that the torpedo firing sequence will be accurately portrayed in SH5. From what I know, the captain (or IWO in the case of a surfaced attack) gave TDC input data from his observations through the periscope (or the IWO's observations through the UZO) and the weapons officer would input the data. once the order was given to fire, the weapons officer would actually punch the button, not the captain or IWO. I'm fine with it as it is though. The same end result is achieved.
And Hylander - Thomas Jefferson never said that. The term "deflation" used to describe an economic concept didn't exist in his day. :know:
If Das boot is accurate then we need also the crew to convoy your orders through the ship until the torpedo is fired… Having this will make the game so much more realistic..
I guess you're trying to give rise to discussion here (which is not a bad thing), but to me it's one detail among other (of course it would be cool).
The real feature that will make the game so much more realistic is still uncertain. :damn:
tomoose
11-15-09, 10:50 PM
As mentioned, it's impossible to make a simple PC game fully realistic. It's really up to the gamer himself on how "realistic" he/she wants to make the game. i.e. 100% settings, external view/cameras on or off etc. Some elements are simply left to the imagination.
For what it's worth, I find SH4 Speech to be another way to add a touch of "realism" and/or immersion. Saying "Come left 45 degrees" into my headset microphone and hearing the response "Aye, aye sir, new course xxx degrees" is kinda cool. Fortunately there's noone else in the house to hear me apparently speaking/yelling to myself, LOL.:yeah:
Highbury
11-15-09, 11:34 PM
As mentioned, it's impossible to make a simple PC game fully realistic. It's really up to the gamer himself on how "realistic" he/she wants to make the game. i.e. 100% settings, external view/cameras on or off etc.
This again shows that "realism" is very subject indeed. At 100% you are performing tasks a captain rarely would, if ever (manual torp plotting for example).
It will never be realistic enough for some people unless they are getting spray flying out of their monitor at them on the bridge, and some will feel the game's already too "hardcore" of a sim for them the way it is. /shrug
If you get water in your face standing on the bridge or not or if you use voice command or not has to do with immersion and not realism I thinks.
When speaking of realism, such things as damage modeling, ships performance, weather, navigation, AI difficulty etc has more to do with realism than whether you press a button to launch the torpedo or whether you press a button to simulate the captain saying "LOS" and someone else presses the button that launches the torpedo :P
Immersion is VERY important though, often more important than realism I thinks..
But I'd certainly like more realism in some areas (especially damage modeling and ships/boats performance).
If you get water in your face standing on the bridge or not or if you use voice command or not has to do with immersion and not realism I thinks.
When speaking of realism, such things as damage modeling, ships performance, weather, navigation, AI difficulty etc has more to do with realism than whether you press a button to launch the torpedo or whether you press a button to simulate the captain saying "LOS" and someone else presses the button that launches the torpedo :P
Immersion is VERY important though, often more important than realism I thinks..
But I'd certainly like more realism in some areas (especially damage modeling and ships/boats performance).
I would say that immersion in a simulation is based on realism (of course it will never be 100% realistic).
Keyfeatures = realism = immersion
Lot of details = lot more realism = a more immersive game
I guess we will have to rely on the modding community to have a more immersive game. ;)
SH is realistic enough to make an enjoyable game which is all it is at the end of the day.
Pressing a button to launch a torpeedo just makes the process managable via a user interface on screen, remove the buttons / UI and how do you propose we control anything?
perhaps by giving an order? which subsequently would still have to be done via a menu system, no?
Unless we use voice activation - but personally i dont want to shout at my PC like an idiot. :oops:
Which ever way you look at it you still are still using a keyboard and mouse to control a Virtual Uboat which is made up of a bunch of geometry on a flat screen display.
IMHO thats not very realistic either... anyways...
Like Silent Hunter, Das Boot and Iron coffins are all 'based on real events' but are designed primarily for entertainment.
Niether of them are very credible from a historical point of view.
Hylander_1314
11-16-09, 01:30 PM
As mentioned, it's impossible to make a simple PC game fully realistic. It's really up to the gamer himself on how "realistic" he/she wants to make the game. i.e. 100% settings, external view/cameras on or off etc. Some elements are simply left to the imagination.
For what it's worth, I find SH4 Speech to be another way to add a touch of "realism" and/or immersion. Saying "Come left 45 degrees" into my headset microphone and hearing the response "Aye, aye sir, new course xxx degrees" is kinda cool. Fortunately there's noone else in the house to hear me apparently speaking/yelling to myself, LOL.:yeah:
tomoose, with voice activation, can you set it up so that if you give an order like say, steer right standard rudder 10 degrees, and come to course 320? Is that possible so the helmsman doesn't use that graduating full rudder and slowly returns to rudder amidships. The reason I ask, is that at full rudder, or the harder you turn, the more speed you lose.
Thanks in advance for any info.
nikimcbee
11-16-09, 02:02 PM
Me neither. I always enjoyed the movie/mini-series, but always enjoyed the novel it's based on more. It's my understanding that Das Boot author Lothar-Günther Buchheim had some differences with the film's script, but that could be due to his difficult personality too. However, Das Boot like a lot of WW2 films, accurate and inaccurate tend to draw people into the subject matter.
You are correct, there is a book about this (I have it at home) that talks about LGB relationships with some of the u-boats captians. (he's not a popular guy) I'll look it up when i get off work.:salute:
Sailor Steve
11-16-09, 08:34 PM
If Das boot is accurate then we need also the crew to convoy your orders through the ship until the torpedo is fired… Having this will make the game so much more realistic..
I couldn't find a photo of the panel, but I can pretty much guarantee that the torpedo firing controls are very near the TDC, in the Control Room. By the time an order was passed to the torpedo room the solution would be lost and it would miss every time. For night attacks from the Bridge the order is shouted into the speaking tube which leads directly to the Control Room.
The way it has always been done in these games is the most realistic you can get without using voice control.
Jimbuna
11-17-09, 06:31 AM
The SH series are games, nothing more.
They will never replace the realism of actually being in a given situation in RL terms.
What the simulation gives you is a sense of immersion and (hopefully) a plausable sense of realism.
Personally, I wouldn't like to have to rely on voice commands.
I consider these games a tool to give us a very rough idea of the decision process a U-boat captain would go through during WWII. Like when to crash dive, how to attack, silent running or not etc.. etc..
We don't get the feel, the smells, the fear of knowing we might die at any moment, and all those other things the real guys went through.
So, like most wargames, not very realistic, but a good educational/learning tool.
THE_MASK
11-17-09, 07:17 AM
The game has to be fun to play as well . The balance sh4 had regarding playability and realism was pretty good but could have been a bit more polished regarding the realism aspect .
kptn_kaiserhof
11-17-09, 07:38 AM
i highly agree no voice command
Randomizer
11-17-09, 01:10 PM
Tilting at the realism windmills...
It never seems to occur that realistic game is more oxymoronic than either jumbo shrimp or military intelligence. Likewise tying Das Boot, a movie based on a novel written by an artist whom was not even a qualified submarine officer as the standard for SH realism seems somewhat out of place as well.
I would submit that in most issues you bring your realism with you rather than expecting the developers to hand it to you on a silver platter. Realism, that is to say simulation as opposed to entertainment is about what you do and not what you see. The SH franchise is capable of realistically simulating certain aspects of WW2 submarine combat but only if the player wishes to impose historicallly realistic restrictions on himself.
Many mods make simulation easier than stock and a number of well written tutorials feature techniques and doctrines that were used in reality and that also work in SH. Some do not and never will. Kudos to the authors and modders for sharing their visions regardless.
Many of the entertaining things that some players enjoy are not at all realistic in a historical sense, a few examples follow.
Harbour raids seem popular but other than Prien at Scapa and Kals at Fedala the entire U-Boat force conducted virtually no harbour attacks with torpedo or gun. To be sure, enemy harbours were entered to conduct mine laying but personal accounts indicate that was one of the worst duties a submarine could draw. SH does not simulate minelaying so conducting conventional harbour attacks in SH may be entertaining but it is hardly realistic.
How many times do gamers wander around freely while on patrol? The reality was that submarines, particularly U-Boats were at the far end of a very tight HF radio leash. Based on posts on this Forum, few (none?) send daily position reports but this was done by real U-Boats virtually up to the last year of the war. Boats transiting to their patrol areas would have to report when crossing prearranged lines of position but how many players actually do. Players don't because the AI BdU is not programmed to respond intelligently to player reports (SH4 with RSRD and TMO is generally far superior to SH3 any mod in this regard) and because radio use tends to bring on the wrath of Coastal Command. That, however was a U-Boat fact of life so keeping radio silence before the summer of 1944 is not at all realistic in most situations.
Sonar only attacks? Fun and satisfying in SH but doctrinally out of place after Feb 1942 in the Pacific and in any boat but a Type XXI in the U-Boat Waffe.
Who actually dives deep after firing acoustic torpedoes or pattern runners and stays deep until after maximum run-time as per U-Boat attack doctrine?
How many players actually plan their patrol in advance, the departure, routes to be taken and return date?
If you wish realism and a better simulation of submarine warfare it requires the player make an effort to conform to the techniques and doctrines that real commanders used on patrol. This means doing some homework a bit deeper than merely reading or watching Das Boot for the umpteenth time.
On the other hand, how anybody uses any of the SH franchise is entirely a personal matter. It can be hugely entertaining, hence the popularity of external cameras and graphic enhancements. Imposing high levels of doctrinal realism takes some of the fun from the game and there is certainly no obligation to do so. Real submarine warfare was hardly fun for the participants and so a truly realistic simulation is unlikely to be too entertaining; they are called games for that very good reason.
However one should look at realism not as something that is merely seen or the inclusion of some mundane bean-counting exercise but rather you acting in conformance to the doctrine and training in effect at the time and place that is being gamed out. You might find this approach to SH more challenging but less pure entertainment.
Probably have P.O'ed enough members by now so I'll shut up.
Likewise tying Das Boot, a movie based on a novel written by an artist whom was not even a qualified submarine officer as the standard for SH realism seems somewhat out of place as well.
/agree
I don't understand the 'Das Boot' worship myself...
Sailor Steve
11-17-09, 02:11 PM
Tilting at the realism windmills...Probably have P.O'ed enough members by now so I'll shut up.
Yeah! Starting with me! Frassarassasassa...
Actually, that may well be the best expository on realism in gaming I've ever read. I usually do try to make daily position and weather reports, or at least write in my log that I did. I also never reload torpedoes while in combat (steep dive angles can have catastrophic results) or in any kind of bad weather unless I'm very deep.
The point I would like to add concerns the very word: realism. The word was first used by the art world in the early 1800s, and various dictionaries define it as "Treatment of forms, colors, space, etc., in such a manner as to emphasize their correspondence to actuality or to ordinary visual experience", "The representation in art or literature of objects, actions, or social conditions as they actually are, without idealization or presentation in abstract form", and "An attempt to make art and literature resemble life".
The Online Etymology Dictionary says this:
realism
1817, from real (adj.), after Fr. réalisme or Ger. Realismus, from L.L. realis "real." Opposed to idealism in philosophy, art, etc. In ref. to scholastic doctrine of Thomas Aquinas (opposed to nominalism) it is recorded from 1826. Meaning "close resemblance to the scene" (in art, literature, etc., often with ref. to unpleasant details) is attested from 1856.
So a game can of course never be real, but it can be, by definition, realistic; and realism is a valid term for what we seek in our sims. How realistic do you want it? The real question in any historical game is "How real does it feel?" That's why we speak of immersion. While we can never have it truly feel real without some kind of 'Holodeck' technology, we can get very close to true-to-life operations with what we have today.
As for Das Boot, it definitely has its own version of 'realism', in that it comes closer to making us feel like we're there than any other movie has so far. For that reason I think most of us stand by it as the mark to hit for that type of movie, but of course like most of us I criticize the operational mistakes when compared with known actual sources.
Webster
11-17-09, 04:47 PM
just how real is real life anyway? can anyone prove real life is realistic? :06:
how can anyone really think a "game" should be as real as real life, real life is often too boring to make a good game anyhow.
Takeda Shingen
11-17-09, 05:01 PM
A real life? Where can I download one of those?
Jimbuna
11-17-09, 05:14 PM
Try going to the same place I went for mine :DL
http://www.disneyfrontier.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/12/disneyland_sign_generator.jpeg
Platapus
11-17-09, 06:19 PM
Unless you play with a suicide pill next to you so that Dead is truly Dead, there is no way any video game can come ANYWHERE near the realism of war. :nope:
A few of us here have been in combat situations, and it is nothing like a game. :nope:
THE_MASK
11-17-09, 06:54 PM
You need a benchmark for realism in pc games . What is the most realistic pc game out there and then compare SH4 to that . SH4 with 100% realism and all cameras off and TM or RFB seems to be pretty high in realism when you are under attack by depth charges .
Ducimus
11-17-09, 07:49 PM
/agree
I don't understand the 'Das Boot' worship myself...
Don't bother, you'll drive yourself nuts. Standing back and looking at it objectively, i find it a complex issue to examine. Kinda interesting really, I think one could write a book studying this. The degree that Das Boot and the novel "Iron coffins" are held as what is tantamount to sacred religious texts despite innaccuracies is at times amusing, if not astonishing. I have to admit, i bought into it hook, line, and sinker for awhile myself. I snapped out of it while playing SH3, and had a moment that made me realize i had lost historical perspective.
As to Randomizer's post, that was one of the better posts ive read on subsim.com in quite awhile.
Snestorm
11-17-09, 09:44 PM
Tilting at the realism windmills...
Probably have P.O'ed enough members by now so I'll shut up.
It sure would be nice if you'd try to get people P.O'ed more often.
The results are outstanding. Great write!
Ilpalazzo
11-17-09, 09:45 PM
zomg! The U571 movie was the most realistic submarine thing ever.
Don't bother, you'll drive yourself nuts. Standing back and looking at it objectively, i find it a complex issue to examine. Kinda interesting really, I think one could write a book studying this. The degree that Das Boot and the novel "Iron coffins" are held as what is tantamount to sacred religious texts despite innaccuracies is at times amusing, if not astonishing. I have to admit, i bought into it hook, line, and sinker for awhile myself. I snapped out of it while playing SH3, and had a moment that made me realize i had lost historical perspective.
As to Randomizer's post, that was one of the better posts ive read on subsim.com in quite awhile.
Lol, don't get me started on 'Iron Coffins'. I'm surprised he didn't throw in a giant squid or dinosaurs... :haha:
Ducimus
11-17-09, 10:41 PM
Lol, don't get me started on 'Iron Coffins'. I'm surprised he didn't throw in a giant squid or dinosaurs... :haha:
The bit about being impressed into the French Foriegn legion toward the end was more horse schitt then i could swallow. I've heard from people who've met Herbert Werner that he's pretty much an arrogant egotistical ass. As i recall even the uboat veteran organizations have disowned the guy. And yet the book is put on a pedestal. Go figure. :O:
As uboat accounts go, i think this one was probably more down to earth of the mainstream books most have probably read:
http://www.amazon.com/Steel-Boat-Iron-Hearts-Goebeler/dp/1932714316/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1258515082&sr=8-1
I like how the author didn't deny any of the average germans feelings about Hitler or the politics of the day. To quote, he says a few times, "I am no chameleon!" That in my mind gives him crediblity, where as most accounts popularlized that i have read seem to either indirectly deny, or totally ignore anything related to the regime they served.
JScones
11-18-09, 02:44 AM
Likewise tying Das Boot, a movie based on a novel written by an artist whom was not even a qualified submarine officer as the standard for SH realism seems somewhat out of place as well.
/agree
I don't understand the 'Das Boot' worship myself...
I am absolutely perplexed at the status that Das Boot has around here. It seems that if it wasn't in Das Boot it didn't happen. And if it was in Das Boot, then SH5 will be cr@p unless it's in it too.
Obviously primary sources are just too boring for some.
Sigh. :doh: :roll: :nope:
Rockin Robbins
11-18-09, 07:43 AM
Realism is how WE play the game. SH5 is as real as it's going to get as the design was frozen months ago and nothing we say has anything to do with what they have already made. (whatever that is)
I am absolutely perplexed at the status that Das Boot has around here. It seems that if it wasn't in Das Boot it didn't happen. And if it was in Das Boot, then SH5 will be cr@p unless it's in it too.
Obviously primary sources are just too boring for some.
Sigh. :doh: :roll: :nope:
I'm glad I'm not the only one who shares that opinion, I was almost afraid to say anything about it!
Last time I watched Das Boot (or tried to) will be my last. 290 minutes of watching the crew debate nazi politics or staring at flies on the bulkheads is a bit much!
In my view that movie is boring, an hour too long, and depressing.
@ Ducimus:
Iron coffins was VERY hard for me to accept as factual, about 1/3 thru that book it just seemed to completely defy reality. His endless 'conquests' of the women of France and Germany was absurd and out of place I thought.
sharkbit
11-18-09, 09:36 AM
Tilting at the realism windmills...
It never seems to occur that realistic game is more oxymoronic than either jumbo shrimp or military intelligence. Likewise tying Das Boot, a movie based on a novel written by an artist whom was not even a qualified submarine officer as the standard for SH realism seems somewhat out of place as well.
I would submit that in most issues you bring your realism with you rather than expecting the developers to hand it to you on a silver platter. Realism, that is to say simulation as opposed to entertainment is about what you do and not what you see. The SH franchise is capable of realistically simulating certain aspects of WW2 submarine combat but only if the player wishes to impose historicallly realistic restrictions on himself.
Many mods make simulation easier than stock and a number of well written tutorials feature techniques and doctrines that were used in reality and that also work in SH. Some do not and never will. Kudos to the authors and modders for sharing their visions regardless.
Many of the entertaining things that some players enjoy are not at all realistic in a historical sense, a few examples follow.
Harbour raids seem popular but other than Prien at Scapa and Kals at Fedala the entire U-Boat force conducted virtually no harbour attacks with torpedo or gun. To be sure, enemy harbours were entered to conduct mine laying but personal accounts indicate that was one of the worst duties a submarine could draw. SH does not simulate minelaying so conducting conventional harbour attacks in SH may be entertaining but it is hardly realistic.
How many times do gamers wander around freely while on patrol? The reality was that submarines, particularly U-Boats were at the far end of a very tight HF radio leash. Based on posts on this Forum, few (none?) send daily position reports but this was done by real U-Boats virtually up to the last year of the war. Boats transiting to their patrol areas would have to report when crossing prearranged lines of position but how many players actually do. Players don't because the AI BdU is not programmed to respond intelligently to player reports (SH4 with RSRD and TMO is generally far superior to SH3 any mod in this regard) and because radio use tends to bring on the wrath of Coastal Command. That, however was a U-Boat fact of life so keeping radio silence before the summer of 1944 is not at all realistic in most situations.
Sonar only attacks? Fun and satisfying in SH but doctrinally out of place after Feb 1942 in the Pacific and in any boat but a Type XXI in the U-Boat Waffe.
Who actually dives deep after firing acoustic torpedoes or pattern runners and stays deep until after maximum run-time as per U-Boat attack doctrine?
How many players actually plan their patrol in advance, the departure, routes to be taken and return date?
If you wish realism and a better simulation of submarine warfare it requires the player make an effort to conform to the techniques and doctrines that real commanders used on patrol. This means doing some homework a bit deeper than merely reading or watching Das Boot for the umpteenth time.
On the other hand, how anybody uses any of the SH franchise is entirely a personal matter. It can be hugely entertaining, hence the popularity of external cameras and graphic enhancements. Imposing high levels of doctrinal realism takes some of the fun from the game and there is certainly no obligation to do so. Real submarine warfare was hardly fun for the participants and so a truly realistic simulation is unlikely to be too entertaining; they are called games for that very good reason.
However one should look at realism not as something that is merely seen or the inclusion of some mundane bean-counting exercise but rather you acting in conformance to the doctrine and training in effect at the time and place that is being gamed out. You might find this approach to SH more challenging but less pure entertainment.
Probably have P.O'ed enough members by now so I'll shut up.
Excellent post. :yeah:
I look at the games(SH3/SH4) as entertainment. I try to follow realistic doctrine to a certain extent(loading externals on the surface in calm weather and stopped, no reloading during combat, not fighting it out on the surface with aircraft, etc.) but I will admit I stray from doctrine as well(external camera to look at the pretty boats, freelancing fom assigned area, etc.). It is a game for enjoyment. I admit that I free lance, to a certain extent, from my assigned area once the 24 hour time frame has gone by and I do other things that may not be entirely in historic context.
I think the greatest enjoyment of the game is the challenge of finding a target, setting up the approach, getting in position, firing the torpedoes, and hitting the target(hopefully), all using manual targeting. Secondly is the evasion from the escorts afterwards. Thirdly, I want to experience some of the challenges that RL commanders faced, especially as the war progresses. I want to see what it was like, within the limitations of the game, of patrolling from 1943 onward and just surviving.
With a lot of the historical limitations that I set on my own, I don't get 100k ton patrols, but I probably get higher tonnage patrols over time than was historically accurate. (My Black Sea career has netted more tonnage in 5 patrols than the historical tonnage combined by all of the Black Sea boats, which the realism side of me finds dissapointing in a way.)
Sailing around for weeks without spotting something in your assigned area and returning to base, while historically accurate, would get old pretty quick and the game will quickly gather dust. My gaming time is limited and I want to make the most of it.
:)
cjbeattie
11-18-09, 09:41 AM
You guys have great points all taken but by saying its ‘only a computer game’ is missing a point.. Its actually a simulation or meant to be . Hence to be as realistic to the real thing as possible!
A prime example of this is ‘Flight Sim X’ from Microsoft after several patch’s and a new graphics card to run the dam thing its suppose to be the benchmark in flight sims so much so that I read somewhere that Vietnam or some other country is actually using it to train its pilots… now that is so much more than a computer game its a ‘sim’ :DL
So if a ‘event’, ‘sound’ or ‘sequence’ can be added then like from my first post regarding the firing sequence from das boot movie it should be added to the game..If that is indeed a realistic attack though from what some of you write is it is far from accurate…
Why do people hold 'das boot' in high regard?
We have of text and pictures this is all we have really to enlighten us to the world of the uboat. And the actually journalist on u96 was there when making so you would of thought it would be accurate.. (wishful thinking perhaps)
The guys who said earlier that is not accurate could you please post a link so I can read, that will be a sad day as I though the director of “das boot’ was out to make a 'realistic life on a uboat' film.. Oh well :wah:
Also Das Boot do’s go a long way ‘language’ wise using slang etc, so my partner tells me who is from Hamburg … she tells me its very authentic for northern Germany..Not many films modern day go that far.....
Anyways fingers crossed sh5 gets close to Das Boot then I will be very pleased accurate or not…i just hope my system runs it the new screenshots look fantastic..:O:
Randomizer
11-18-09, 11:32 AM
cjbeatty wrote:
You guys have great points all taken but by saying its ‘only a computer game’ is missing a point.. Its actually a simulation or meant to be . Hence to be as realistic to the real thing as possible!
A prime example of this is ‘Flight Sim X’ from Microsoft after several patch’s and a new graphics card to run the dam thing its suppose to be the benchmark in flight sims so much so that I read somewhere that Vietnam or some other country is actually using it to train its pilots… now that is so much more than a computer game its a ‘sim’ :DL
Actually CJ, I think you have misunderstood what the point being made is and your Flight Sim example is solid evidence of that. These are Games that are capable of Simulating certain aspects of their chosen subject. A good subsim allows you to use tactics and techniques that were used in the event to manage approaches and attacks using a submarine. As a simulator, that's about as far as you are ever likely to get unless you build your own submarine control room simulator and fill it full of trained minions.
There is no realism if you choose not to learn and use these tactics and techniques regardless of how pretty the graphics might look or what kind of noises it makes.
Detailed simulation tends to be tedious but instructive, playing down the simulation aspect is why games are fun.
As with flight sim, if you fail to properly flightplan, practice simulated airmanship, learn real-world navigation techniques and conduct approaches and transitions using published procedures you are not simulating real flight but merely playing at flying.
One might be more enjoyable but the other provides a much greater sense of accomplishment in my opinion.
FIREWALL
11-18-09, 11:41 AM
Some of you expect or demand too much for $50.00
If Sh5 had everything and/or did everything you all want it would cost $500.00 or even more.
I think "Realism" better start with the Players being a little more realistic. :O:
sharkbit
11-18-09, 01:04 PM
I've always hated the term "realism" settings in SH3/SH4. I think a more apt term is "difficulty" settings.
:)
Wasn't there a "realism" setting back in orginal SH that was over 100%? :haha: Yes, it's "more real than real!"
Randomizer
11-18-09, 01:22 PM
Wasn't there a "realism" setting back in orginal SH that was over 100%? :haha: Yes, it's "more real than real!"
Heh, heh, that was the Advanced Combat setting if I recall, giving the escorts more umph. But at least in SH1 you could shut down all your radars, control your internal lighting and your diesel fuel was measured in gallons.
But at least in SH1 you could shut down all your radars, control your internal lighting and your diesel fuel was measured in gallons.
Exactly, love to see those details (and others) be restored. Miss being able to 'rig for red'. :|\\
We should make a distinction between realism and accuracy.
Accuracy is more about dive times, destroyer turning radii, plane
bombing accuracy etc.
Realism includes all of that, but also things like not being able to move
the camera beyond the first person and not having little red triangles.
For example, an abstract physics simulation can be accurate, but never
realistic. At least that is my reading of the terms.
That in mind, I think that SH3 is selective in it's realism and makes
genuine, and usually successful, attempts at accuracy.
Exactly, love to see those details (and others) be restored. Miss being able to 'rig for red'. :|\\
Why would you want to rig for red unless it was night time?
Sailor Steve
11-18-09, 02:23 PM
I'm glad I'm not the only one who shares that opinion, I was almost afraid to say anything about it!
Last time I watched Das Boot (or tried to) will be my last. 290 minutes of watching the crew debate nazi politics or staring at flies on the bulkheads is a bit much!
Gee, and I watch the 452-minute version at least once every year or so, sometimes more often. I don't find that version boring at all. On the other hand, I have no illusions about it being real. As I said 'realism' is an art term for an accurate depiction of life, and in that regard Das Boot is probably as close as we're ever going to see in a popular movie. Their attention to technical detail in the reconstruction of the boat itself, as well as the moving platform technique of filming the interior scenes make it well worth owning and watching on a regular basis.
But it is only a movie, and shouldn't be used to judge accuracy in a different format, i.e. a game or sim.
Subsim <<<<<<<<<<<<o>>>>>>>>>>>>> WorldSim
Geuss which one we are getting :hmmm:
Webster
11-18-09, 04:42 PM
Some of you expect or demand too much for $50.00
If Sh5 had everything and/or did everything you all want it would cost $500.00 or even more.
I think "Realism" better start with the Players being a little more realistic. :O:
very well said :up:
Carotio
11-18-09, 05:41 PM
Pressing the torpedo button to release the actual torpedo?
AFAIR from the subsim meet, that's exactly what we saw, a torpedo launch button, just as it was in previous versions.
And IMHO that's good enough. :salute:
For more realism, use your imagination: just shout "Torpedo los" in front of your monitor, while pressing the small digit area of a high-res screen with your cordless laser-guided mouse....
Snestorm
11-19-09, 01:18 AM
AFAIR from the subsim meet, that's exactly what we saw, a torpedo launch button, just as it was in previous versions.
And IMHO that's good enough. :salute:
For more realism, use your imagination: just shout "Torpedo los" in front of your monitor, while pressing the small digit area of a high-res screen with your cordless laser-guided mouse....
For added realism one can follow the above given directions, without the mouse.
JScones
11-19-09, 03:16 AM
Also Das Boot do’s go a long way ‘language’ wise using slang etc, so my partner tells me who is from Hamburg … she tells me its very authentic for northern Germany..Not many films modern day go that far.....
But what's this got to do with anything? It's a common misconception that U-boat crews came primarily from Northern Germany. The majority actually came from central Germany, principally Saxony.
Why would you want to rig for red unless it was night time?
Moreso the converse...
1. Because at dawn or dusk one doesn't want to be dictated to by a computer saying "just two more minutes" while you're setting up a shot.
2. Because regardless of the time red lights are not relevant at 200m when you are trying to avoid a destroyer.
3. Because red lights are only needed just prior to surfacing or reaching periscope depth, to allow the bridge crew or Kaleun's eyes time to adjust to the darkness.
4. Because later in the war bridge crew were issued goggles, thus largely eliminating the need to rig for red (remembering that crew sleeping areas were always darkened, regardless of time, except for battle stations).
just how real is real life anyway? can anyone prove real life is realistic? :06:
how can anyone really think a "game" should be as real as real life, real life is often too boring to make a good game anyhow.
I agree. We're all just living in the Matrix anyways. But some refuse to believe this, they rather swallow the blue pill...
Yes and dont use toothpaste, they use that to control us! :haha:
I'm glad you know about the 'toothpaste' too. :shifty:
Quick, tin foil hats on!
LoL - the N.W.O conspiricy theorys are just silly (the prospect of Western based one world govenment.)
Not only would 80% of the population of Middle East and south Asia rather die than submit to such a thing.
But can you ever imaging China or Russia just willingly giving up there soveriegnty? Not in million years! they'd fight us (the west) to the last man and rocket.
If Such a new world order ever does exist, there sure wont be many people left to live in it.
there wouldnt be much 'world' left, let alone 'order'. :haha:
Sorry, drifting OT here....
If it was realistic, we would be murdering non-virtual sailors instead of the binary ones. So I'm glad it's not.
Sailor Steve
11-20-09, 09:14 PM
I agree. We're all just living in the Matrix anyways. But some refuse to believe this, they rather swallow the blue pill...
If the life I have is the best the Matrix can give me, I'd rather just be dead.:dead:
Uber Gruber
11-21-09, 07:35 AM
You are masters of your own lives....you hold the strings.:03:
Jimbuna
11-21-09, 12:16 PM
You are masters of your own lives....you hold the strings.:03:
Unless of course your little more than a puppet :hmmm:
DES_SNIPER
11-21-09, 12:43 PM
Every media takes liberties. No book, movie, show, or game can be 100% true to life.
Books are written as the author's point of view, with always has biased.
Movies most always take liberties for the understanding of the audience, or for action, simplification, for cinematic scope, (some of those shots in das-boot were almost impossible to film), and pure difficulty and budget of filming.
TV shows are worse than movies on those points and more.
And last, games, There is no way to accurately recreate enemy AI, ships reactions, weather...well basically all of the real world...that is if this isn't the matrix...spookuler :o
If they could create 100% realistic game most of the time, we would be bored to death:yawn:
johan_d
11-21-09, 06:31 PM
LoL - the N.W.O conspiricy theorys are just silly (the prospect of Western based one world govenment.)
Not only would 80% of the population of Middle East and south Asia rather die than submit to such a thing.
But can you ever imaging China or Russia just willingly giving up there soveriegnty? Not in million years! they'd fight us (the west) to the last man and rocket.
If Such a new world order ever does exist, there sure wont be many people left to live in it.
there wouldnt be much 'world' left, let alone 'order'. :haha:
Sorry, drifting OT here....
Welcome in the world of FALLOUT3.. another 'realism'
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