Rough nite...

[Sevrin]

But more TMO fun... :D

http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx43/sevrin2009/close.jpg?t=1258133228

http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx43/sevrin2009/dd.jpg?t=1258133252

http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx43/sevrin2009/dd2.jpg?t=1258133286

http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx43/sevrin2009/crew.jpg?t=1258133314

http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx43/sevrin2009/crew2.jpg?t=1258133340

http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx43/sevrin2009/hit.jpg?t=1258133366

[Ducimus]

Sometime next week, it's gonna get rougher. :D

http://www.ducimus.net/sh415/ygun_pattern_01.jpg

[SteamWake]

Gulp :oops:

[Sevrin]

Cool, bring it! :D

http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx43/sevrin2009/ddsunk.jpg?t=1258167644

:arrgh!::arrgh!:

[Rockin Robbins]

:har: I just watched a great episode from Victory at Sea showing those ghastly Y-throwers in action.

I'll never forget my first encounter with one of Ducimus' Y-throwers during a test session. Silent running and reluctant to be the first to blink, the DD approaches. The bearing is changing and increasing in rate of change. He's going to pass safely to starboard, we'll just sit and.......
KaBOOOOOOOMMMMMM!!!!! die.

[Sevrin]

:har: I just watched a great episode from Victory at Sea showing those ghastly Y-throwers in action.

I'll never forget my first encounter with one of Ducimus' Y-throwers during a test session. Silent running and reluctant to be the first to blink, the DD approaches. The bearing is changing and increasing in rate of change. He's going to pass to starboard, we'll just sit and.......
KaBOOOOOOOMMMMMM!!!!!
die.

:o:o:o

[G2B]

Sometime next week, it's gonna get rougher. :D

http://www.ducimus.net/sh415/ygun_pattern_01.jpg


:yeah: Great were all in deep poop, (says the A-ganger)

[Ducimus]

I'll never forget my first encounter with one of Ducimus' Y-throwers during a test session.

Was this test anytime recently (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1202436&postcount=9)? :D

edit:
I have to say, what i did with those throwers is devilishly simple, and yet im kinda proud of my creativity with that. I hope those escorts end up in the same category and work out as well as those "evil airplanes". I do worry though if it might be a bit much. Sometimes i wish i was modding for the atlantic, i could go whole hog and not feel the least bit like "maybe this is too much". lol

[Wilcke]

Nope, if you get caught you deserve to get hammered bring it on. Remember, everyone has read the books and they know all the secrets, time to put an end to the 'gamers'.

This really adds that great unknown, you roll the dice turn left, right or straight ahead. One of these choices will get you killed, sweet.

[magic452]

You will get your chance to mod the ATO soon enough :yeah:

Magic

[Freiwillige]

Was this test anytime recently (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1202436&postcount=9)? :D

edit:
I have to say, what i did with those throwers is devilishly simple, and yet im kinda proud of my creativity with that. I hope those escorts end up in the same category and work out as well as those "evil airplanes". I do worry though if it might be a bit much. Sometimes i wish i was modding for the atlantic, i could go whole hog and not feel the least bit like "maybe this is too much". lol

Now Ducimus you know I have nothing but respect for you brother and if your modifications fall within the boundaries of historical capability I am all for it. But sometimes I think people love the game being harder just for the sake of being harder (Sadomasochists) but if its any harder than the real fleet boat boys had it I am not really interested. Now don't get me wrong I love what you do its just for me this is a Sim and while any Sim is far from perfect the closer it is to how it was the happier I am.

So for gods sake don't make it any worse than it was just for the sake of saying "My mod is hardest". Make it as it was easy or hard as I am no expert. Either way Im sure I will use your stuff as I always have despite the challenge. ll I am saying is be careful of the "Yes make it harder boys" which there seems to be no shortage of for the sake of taking away all historical fact.

Im sure my opinion will make me less popular but its my 2 cents none the less.:arrgh!:

[Rockin Robbins]

Well, TMO never did claim to be a realism mod. (I encountered the Y-throwers right after you first put them on any ship, about a year ago if I recall). Escorts can and will locate you precisely below the layer without ever pinging you. They will answer the dinner bell from 2000 yards when you are at silent running and with a bad aspect ratio. Already, lots happens in TMO that didn't generally happen in real life.

It's still not up to the brutal Atlantic scene, especially with the most popular mod configuration. But it's darned challenging. It WILL get you killed and you can do everything right just to die. But that was real warfare too.

It can be argued that TMO, by giving you unrealistic danger, makes you play the game realistically. The real guys didn't know the capabilities of their enemies at all. We can just do research and game the system.

Or some bright modder reads that the vast majority of boats survived the war so he mods depth charges so the outcome is about the same percentage. Unfortunately, this means that a depth charge can explode on deck and you just continue on because it takes multiple hits even to damage you, several to kill you. Knowing this, you stay at periscope depth as the DD passes over, calmly sending one up the poop chute after he passes, knowing his DCs are harmless. Can you call that realism without laughing?

Realism isn't a static and well defined target. Its a frustrating and hidden target. In spite of that, TMO doesn't pretend to be realistic. In fact, it sneers in realism's general direction!:D

[Bubblehead1980]

Well said Robbins, you beat me to it.I maintain TMO does pretty well in the realism department for most part.Sure a little is booted in order to boost gameplay, such as making the escort's sensors a little better than they were but it's okay with me, because it keeps the game challenging.The reason I don't fool with other mods, although they are excellent in their own way, is because the escorts are just too easy for me.

Long ago in stock I figured out how to con my sub into ideal attack position as well mastering manual targeting. I learned the various tactics etc from reading many books.TMO made me go back to school a bit lol, to deal with the convoys zigging and the tougher escorts, but since i've been playing TMO almost a year, 90% of the time conning into a good or even ideal position is easy and somewhat effortless to be honest, most of the time anyway.

The thing that keeps me playing TMO is that the escorts are an actual threat, esp as you get into 43 and 44.Sure it may fudge realism slightly sometimes when they pinpoint your sub at 500 feet when thermal layer was at 200 and you are on silent running moving at 1 knot and one well placed charge can take out your sub instead of it being beaten into submission, how it was done most of the time, but hey it makes for unrivaled gameplay.However, one well placed charge could take out a sub, look up the USS Lagarto.

The Japanese escorts were not all pushovers as it seems many around here think.Sure, their tactics and technology were behind a bit earlier in the war, but they were still a threat then.As war moved on, they began running more and better escorted convoys which sank many of the subs the US lost during the way.Then you have the lucky ones who were nearly destroyed such as the Seahorse, Halibut etc and others like the Drum who were heavily damaged(conning tower had to be replaced)


That is all:salute:

[Ducimus]

You will get your chance to mod the ATO soon enough :yeah:

Magic

No i'm not. :03: I don't see myself moving to sh5. I'll be staying in SH4. Only way i would go to sh5, is if a box magically appeared on my doorstep without my knowledge. But i have too much time invested into this game to leave it for another uboat game. SH3 kinda burnt me out on uboats for quite awhile.


So for gods sake don't make it any worse than it was just for the sake of saying "My mod is hardest". Make it as it was easy or hard as I am no expert. Either way Im sure I will use your stuff as I always have despite the challenge. ll I am saying is be careful of the "Yes make it harder boys" which there seems to be no shortage of for the sake of taking away all historical fact.


Oh don't worry, i do have my limits. I would never make the game what i refer to as "atlantic hard", thought i could easily do so. Read further down.

Well, TMO never did claim to be a realism mod.

-snip---
It's still not up to the brutal Atlantic scene, especially with the most popular mod configuration. But it's darned challenging. It WILL get you killed and you can do everything right just to die. But that was real warfare too.

It can be argued that TMO, by giving you unrealistic danger, makes you play the game realistically. The real guys didn't know the capabilities of their enemies at all. We can just do research and game the system.

--snip--
Realism isn't a static and well defined target. Its a frustrating and hidden target. In spite of that, TMO doesn't pretend to be realistic. In fact, it sneers in realism's general direction!:D

Sorry for the cherry picking RR, but i felt this was a good time to reiterate a point, cause i don't want people to run around saying bad things about my brainchild. I define realism, by the player behaving realistically. As historical accuracy goes, i will try to be "in the ball park", but i will generalize a little bit in order to hit my desired goal of getting you the player to behave realistically.

As historical accuracy goes, while i may generalize some aspects, i won't ever deliberatly stray too far from historical fact. The new Y guns being one example, one class of ship DID have that many throwers, so up to that many was possible, though i wouldnt go sticking that many throwers on every damn tin can in the game. I want those type C/D's to inspire fear, so the Y guns on them, fudged by a factor of 2 extra, seemed like a good way to do it.

Now I always have thought that this is both a game, AND a sim, and it is sometimes tricky to maintain that balance, but it's a balance i strive for, and im usually worried about leaning too far over in one direction or another. So far, i think ive maintained a good balance. If i was to put a figure on it, id say 70 to 75% historical accuracy in order to maintain a simulation, and 25 to 30 % artistic license in order to facilitate an entertaining game. But again, the end goal is to get the player to behave as a skipper would have, and since you play the part of a submarine skipper, id call that a successful simulation if you end up behaving like, or have the same fears/frustrations as one in game.

[Webster]

I define realism, by the player behaving realistically. As historical accuracy goes, i will try to be "in the ball park", but i will generalize a little bit in order to hit my desired goal of getting you the player to behave realistically.


i think this is the hardest thing for people to understand sometimes is that some things in this game just arent ever going to be reaistic and to get an end result that comes "close" to a realistic outcome or experience then you sometimes need to cancel out one unrealistic element with your own realistic element in order to make it closer to how it was in real life.

there is such a "huge" difference between realism and what is realistic for modders to be able to achieve within the game.

[Rockin Robbins]

And consider this: no matter how "realistic" the game is by whatever standard you wish to use, WE are NOT realistic. With our 20/20 hindsight encyclopedic knowledge of World War II, we game the system, making perfectly realistic content into an arcade game silly season!

Knowing that our torpedoes will run 10' deep in the early war, we game the system, setting the dratted things on the surface. Knowing the magnetic sensors don't work, we shut 'em down when real captains risked their careers when they dared to do that.

Using the external camera or the event camera we watch the torpedo pass under the target and adjust. The real sub crew didn't know whether they missed ahead, behind or under, only that there was no boom. We can diagnose our shooting with great precision and apply remedies. Much of what they thought was happening just wasn't. Their adjustments made the problem worse.

We know for a fact that two properly placed torpedoes will hit almost exactly where we aim them and that they will sink our target. So we fire two per victim and move on efficiently. The real sub crews shot spreads of four so they could get a couple of hits. When they hit two shots they often had to follow up to close the deal.

Many, many targets were left damaged but not sunk. We get all pouty if we make three booms and the target stays on the surface. We even write nasty posts complaining about the damage model. Just about every target we hit goes down.

And the most ludicrous part of all: the real men in World War II hated being there. They were scared, they could die out there, there was no help if they were tagged and disabled. The happiest day of their lives was when they could leave the war. We love the game, aren't scared at all and charge around as if we could get blown to smithereens and just restart the game.......oh........actually we CAN do that, can't we?

The most unrealistic part of SH4 is US!:haha:

[G2B]

And consider this: no matter how "realistic" the game is by whatever standard you wish to use, WE are NOT realistic. With our 20/20 hindsight encyclopedic knowledge of World War II, we game the system, making perfectly realistic content into an arcade game silly season!

Knowing that our torpedoes will run 10' deep in the early war, we game the system, setting the dratted things on the surface. Knowing the magnetic sensors don't work, we shut 'em down when real captains risked their careers when they dared to do that.

Using the external camera or the event camera we watch the torpedo pass under the target and adjust. The real sub crew didn't know whether they missed ahead, behind or under, only that there was no boom. We can diagnose our shooting with great precision and apply remedies. Much of what they thought was happening just wasn't. Their adjustments made the problem worse.

We know for a fact that two properly placed torpedoes will hit almost exactly where we aim them and that they will sink our target. So we fire two per victim and move on efficiently. The real sub crews shot spreads of four so they could get a couple of hits. When they hit two shots they often had to follow up to close the deal.

Many, many targets were left damaged but not sunk. We get all pouty if we make three booms and the target stays on the surface. We even write nasty posts complaining about the damage model. Just about every target we hit goes down.

The most unrealistic part of SH4 is US!:haha:

I would have to agree here, unless you show some real restraint in your actions to avoid all of the above mentioned advantages, I know I can't.
So having escorts with a bit more aggressiveness is not unfair. In fact trying to evade escorts makes the sim, otherwise it's just fishing in a barrel with dynamite.

Surprises like the Q-ship (have not ran into yet) or well trained escort captains keep you on your toes. I have not installed 1.8 yet, waiting for my current career to come to a tragic end, but I think I read Bungo Pete is going to be out and about a bit :up: Now I'm not asking for anything here, just a thought, it would be interesting to have a small squadron of 2 or 3 smaller escorts roaming about some of the choke points. Nothing on the Captain Walker scale but enough to keep you thinking should I go for the single ship or that small convoy on my radar? That would make for a good surprise :o As a matter of fact that happened to me int the slot, 5 destroyers cruising in. Yes they were running supplies but still we had an interesting surprise when visual was made. That made for one of the most exciting attacks I had done.

[magic452]

*I think that ducimus has hit a very good balance between realism and game play and as far as forcing you to act as a real captain goes he sure accomplished his mission. I don't do things that I did in stock, you just can't get away with that kind of stuff in TMO.

Rockin Robbins hit the nail on the head. Realism is how you play the game and Ducimus has forced you to play it right. His evil airplanes are a perfect example of this.

I had attacked a fat convoy and was trying to do a run around but the planes keep forcing me down, made a difficult task of it. Between the planes and course changes it took all day. Made a night attack and started another run around, by the time I could get set up it was daylight again and I had to duck a plane and lost my good set up. Did it all over again and finally got off some good shots.

The point is the planes and course changes forced me to plot the convoy's course and try to guess when and by how much they would alter their course and then try to figure out a good intercept point. It was challenging but a whole lot o" fun. :up:

While admiring my handy work on the cam "aircraft spotted sir". I had missed the radar call. Just about ruined a very good day.

Thanks for the evil planes, they make the game fun. The same goes for the evil DD, if you are in no danger of being sunk the game gets boring real fast.

Just as a though I think G2B has a good idea with the small hunter/killed groups. Could seriously alter the way you patrol certain areas by forcing you out of the choke points.

I think I will be playing SH4 with TMO long after SH5 is released.

Thanks again Ducimus mission accomplished. :yeah::yeah:

Magic

[tomoose]

I would have to agree with RR. The game can be as realistic as YOU make it. Ducimus' TMO, for me, helps along those lines. I play at 100% realism. No external views etc. I find the game bloody frustrating at times but in a twisted way it makes it more enjoyable, LOL. Maybe it's just the masochist in me, LOL.
If I miss a target, I try to figure out what went wrong. With no external view, this is a challenge in itself. I normally fire at least 3 torps at a given target with a fourth on standby ready to adjust if I miss and am able to determine the cause from the periscope.
I find TMO to add the right amount of challenge given the way I play it.:salute:

[jazman]

As it's said about literature, you can tell more truth with fiction.