View Full Version : The Night Surface Attack
beartooth91
11-10-09, 04:26 PM
Has anyone been able to successfully attack Japanese merchantmen on the surface at night ? Ideal firing range is around 1000 yds, yet anytime I get under 1200 or so, I get detected.
I believe RR did so in one of his tutorials in fact. :woot:
I've done it, although nothing like roaring through the middle of a convoy amid exploding tankers. Decks awash is a must.
Sure have :rock: best conditions for it are little or no moon, cloudy or the one I like best FOG, sea conditions factor in also rougher seas help hide your wake (I think) decks awash, dead slow if sea is calm.
Had one instance of some really thick soupy fog, dead calm seas with a merchant approaching on radar. Plotted course to intercept and waited, cruising about 1 knot. If I had not been on the bridge we would have missed em. As it was the crew never saw it passing about 300 yards across our bow, I could barely make out the shape as they passed :oops:
They never saw us either but they lit up the sky when the DG opened up on em.
Bubblehead1980
11-11-09, 12:56 AM
beartooth, are you running stock?
Night surface was always rather difficult (far more than it was in RL) in the stock game.Mods like TMO, it is much more possible, I do it all the time.
That being said, 1200 yards is too close, in night surface action I tend to fire from 2000-3500 yards depending on moonlight, if a great moon or large escort screen and have Mark 14's will fire from 4-5000 yards.Plus you have time to try and get away before torpedos hit and escorts are alerted, if any are present.I never use decks awash, i think that is a somewhat foolish notion myself, but everyone has their way.I tend to do it the historical way, because its possible.Plus I am on diesels and can speed away quickly if needed.Only once have I been spotted, took a deck gun hit that damaged my sub but i managed to survive after 12 hour depth charging(dove because was trapped) then limp home, a risk you take using NSA.
There is no one rule, have to size up your situation but the following may help.
Moonlight is the big issue, scan around from bridge, look for the moon.General rule for me is, half moon or less, I go for night surface, more than half moon, may shadow the convoy and go for the dawn periscope attack or consider a long range surface attack.If a full moon, night periscope attack is an option.
Speed, I move at ahead 1/3 when enemy is in visual, rarely more, this produces little or no wake, reduces visibility.I disagree with some that heavy seas helps, because you are still breaking into the seas and water pours from the side of your sub, just not helpful.Dark nights with calm seas and moving at 1/3 is best.
If attacking a convoy, consider the number and position of escorts.If no escorts on the flanks, your job is easier.you can close in and let the convoy pass in front of your for that perfect shot.However, if escorts on flanks, may have to fire with an angle so you can get out of there before escort spots you.Remember, subs are fragile and deck guns from escorts can make you have a very bad day.
Any more questions, just ask.Good luck.
Rockin Robbins
11-11-09, 09:36 AM
Yes, the John P Cromwell video, lousy as it is :haha: was kept in that condition because it featured the first successful daylight surface attack I've ever done. It was done with TMO installed and I thought that aside from the John P Cromwell instructions itself, the absolute proof that it was possible was also useful. If I remember, the star of the show was Mr Fog.:D
That being said, 1200 yards is too close, in night surface action I tend to fire from 2000-3500yards depending on moonlight, if a great moon or large escort screen and have Mark 14's will fire from 4-5000 yards.
That works in the game, but was not done in real life -you would have needed a super acurate firing solution for it, and count on the target not zigging or doing anything strange after you shoot-
In real life they got very, very close undetected in moonless nights, the german uboat accounts -which were the ones who practiced it more- talk of few hundred metres, even 200 metres sometimes, being able to see the crew of the merchant on the deck.
The main reason for this is not just the light, but also the relative heigth of the submarine and merchant. Almost any merchant's main deck was already higher than the uboat's, and when looking from above downwards, the submarine mergues with the sea. Instead, when looking from the submarine upwards, the merchant is much better silhouetted against the sky, no matter how low the light is.
I tweaked my sim.cfg file accordingly, to allow me doing night surface attacks in more historical conditions :up:
beartooth91
11-11-09, 10:51 AM
I'm running v1.4 with TMO and RSRDC v370.
That works in the game, but was not done in real life -you would have needed a super acurate firing solution for it, and count on the target not zigging or doing anything strange after you shoot-
In real life they got very, very close undetected in moonless nights, the german uboat accounts -which were the ones who practiced it more- talk of few hundred metres, even 200 metres sometimes, being able to see the crew of the merchant on the deck.
The main reason for this is not just the light, but also the relative heigth of the submarine and merchant. Almost any merchant's main deck was already higher than the uboat's, and when looking from above downwards, the submarine mergues with the sea. Instead, when looking from the submarine upwards, the merchant is much better silhouetted against the sky, no matter how low the light is.
I tweaked my sim.cfg file accordingly, to allow me doing night surface attacks in more historical conditions :up:
And that's my recollection (range). 2500 seems a long ways out, historically, but, I'll have to check my books (Find 'Em, Chase 'Em, Sink 'Em; Thunder Below, Clear The Bridge, and Death At A Distance). In the event I decide to tweak the sim.cfg file, what are the appropriate sections ?
AVGWarhawk
11-11-09, 12:09 PM
Go at slow knots and deck awash as others stated.
At the risk of an embarrassingly stupid question, what depth is considered 'decks awash?' :oops: Just tower visible, decks barely visible?
Rockin Robbins
11-11-09, 12:26 PM
In a fleet boat it is about 30-32 feet. You want to be the deepest you can be and still have the diesels running. At decks awash you can actually run WFO without fear because you can't go faster than 10 knots in that configuration anyway.
AVGWarhawk
11-11-09, 12:50 PM
In a fleet boat it is about 30-32 feet. You want to be the deepest you can be and still have the diesels running. At decks awash you can actually run WFO without fear because you can't go faster than 10 knots in that configuration anyway.
:yep::D
Bubblehead1980
11-11-09, 01:59 PM
Beartooth, I have read all the books you listed as well, they did tend to get a little closer.However, in the game, most of the time if you get 1200 yards off a convoy on surface, they will spot you, 2000 is a good compromise and historically accurate because not every sub got 1200 yards off , that was ideal, they often used radar to help locate and track targets(their radar was much better than in the game)so firing from 2000 was possible and done plenty of times.
SH 4 allows you to apply many real world tactics and all but there are limitations.However, on dark nights I have had escorts come as close as 900 yards and not spot me(I was at a dead stop on surface) so really depends on the moonlight.I was not decks awash either, I like to be on surface so can go to flank speed when needed.The sub is low to water anyway.
I believe one of the other benefits of decks awash is if things go terribly wrong:doh: you can dive a little quicker, a few seconds could make all the difference.
breadcatcher101
11-11-09, 11:03 PM
I play stock 1.5 and have done it on dark nights (no stars). Got to within 1200 yards on a convoy using low speed at normal depth.
The real excitment starts when the torpedoes hit and light up your boat like a Christmas tree. Every deck gun in range opens up on you.
The real excitment starts when the torpedoes hit and light up your boat like a Christmas tree. Every deck gun in range opens up on you.
Gone horribly wrong :har:
I play stock 1.5 and have done it on dark nights (no stars). Got to within 1200 yards on a convoy using low speed at normal depth.
The real excitment starts when the torpedoes hit and light up your boat like a Christmas tree. Every deck gun in range opens up on you.
You should be long gone and on the opposite side of the convoy by then my friend!
That works in the game, but was not done in real life -you would have needed a super acurate firing solution for it, and count on the target not zigging or doing anything strange after you shoot-
In real life they got very, very close undetected in moonless nights, the german uboat accounts -which were the ones who practiced it more- talk of few hundred metres, even 200 metres sometimes, being able to see the crew of the merchant on the deck.
The main reason for this is not just the light, but also the relative heigth of the submarine and merchant. Almost any merchant's main deck was already higher than the uboat's, and when looking from above downwards, the submarine mergues with the sea. Instead, when looking from the submarine upwards, the merchant is much better silhouetted against the sky, no matter how low the light is.
I tweaked my sim.cfg file accordingly, to allow me doing night surface attacks in more historical conditions :up:
Care to share those numbers? Salud!
You must play with the values in the file "Sim.cfg", located at Data/Cfg
I am currently running these, but I constantly tweak it if I feel that I get detected too easy:
[Visual]
Detection time=120.0 ;[s] min detection time.
Sensitivity=0.05 ;(0..1) min detection threshold double detection time.
Fog factor=1.0 ;[>=0]
Light factor=2.8 ;[>=0]
Waves factor=1.5 ;[>=0]
Enemy surface factor=75.0 ;[m2]
Enemy speed factor=15 ;[kt]
Thermal Layer Signal Attenuation=2.0
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