Tougher escorts?

[Matt86]

Started playing a week or so ago, stock 1.4 with RE and a few small realism/improvement mods but I'm finding the escorts too easy. Ive installed Kakemanns improved escorts (elite) mod which promised a 'Das boot' feeling but their still way to easy to escape. On the surface I get spotted easily and torpedoes are avoided combined with devastating gunfire but when I'm underwater and running quiet I'm invisible without even help from a thermal layer. To get any dangerous attention I need to surface or make unreasonable amounts of noise. Is there any other way to improve escorts? And maybe make depth charges more damaging/numerous? It seems escorts drop so few and even a very close hit does little damage.

I'm tired of going through entire patrols (successfully too) without any damage! Help!

[Freiwillige]

First off, Anti submarine warfare was really lacking in Japan. Training was sub par and so was doctrine. A few escort captains learned the ropes but far and wide its a different war than in the Atlantic.

Japanese lookouts especially at night were some of the best.

Early war the Escorts were a Joke and destroyers were looked at as Fleet screens and only mildly in the dishonorable role of ASW platform.

Long story short. You will devastate them as we did historically!

Try TMO mod if you want to fear for your life and have superhuman escorts and aircraft hunt you to extinction if you aren't super cautious

[Torplexed]

Ive installed Kakemanns improved escorts (elite) mod which promised a 'Das boot' feeling but their still way to easy to escape.

I'd recommend the TMO mod too. But submarine warfare in the Pacific should never be Das Boot. This was a struggle in which one skipper, Sam Dealey in his career sank 5 destroyers, a feat most German skippers were considered extremely fortunate to do once. You're on the winning offensive side, not the slink away to maybe survive the war losing side. ;)

[Matt86]

Good points! Iv just installed RSRDC for 1.4 and im not sure if its the mix of ships or better ships but there is a noticeable difference. No more coasting in under the escorts undetected. Will definately try TMO too, thanks guys.

[Ducimus]

I feel compelled to say that TMO, and "Das Boot", have very little in common. Yes the escorts are harder, but they are not superhuman, nor is the mod what i would consider "atlantic hard". Although i will concede that anyone who hasn't played SH3/4 for a couple of years, the AI may seem superhuman, but it really isn't.

[Faamecanic]

Ducimus,

I your opinion ...how does your mods DD/DE AI compare with GWX 3.0? I find GWX to be the right combination of realistic difficulty, but not impossible.

for example in GWX 3 I just hit a convoy from 3,000 m away (1943), while torps where headed the merchants way, I changed course 180 deg (to put my aft to the DD escorts), an dove to 270 - 300 m (I vary my depth to confuse the DDs).

I had 3 DDs on top of me VERY quickly after sinking a large tanker... took me 7 game hours to finally elude them. Just when I thought I escaped their net PING PING... here they come again!

Like I said above...I love challenging escorts... but have played some mods where the escorts where super human. You could never escape more than 1 escort in some mods. In GWX if there are 3 or more your chances arent good. At least one sites listening on hydrophones, while the others run around with active sonar. But its not impossible either via good depth changes, direction changes etc etc...

[Bubblehead1980]

TMO's AI represents tough but not superhuman escorts, which I believe is a better representation of reality than pushover escorts.


I understand that Japan, esp in earlier part of war was way behind on ASW but they improved and were not quite as lackluster as it seems some out there think, they crippled and destroyed quite a few US subs, esp in mid 43 to the end of the war their ASW doctrine improved.Examples being USS Seahorse and USS Halibut.Halibut was damaged so severely in late 1944 after an effective depth charging that she never made war patrol again, damaged too severely to justify repair.Seahorse was severely damaged as well in 1945 by depth charges, believe she never made war patrol again either.The losses were pretty high in 43, 44 and 45 even, not all but most were lost to escorts.

Germany operated many more subs than the US, and they lost many more.For the 250 or so subs the US had at some point, losing 52 is quite a high loss rate(okay take out couple boats who grounded themselves).Then factor in those so severely damaged they were retired from combat, they were lost in a sense, they were not long useful against the enemy in war.All losses at enemy hands were to Japanese, not other nations(as far as i can tell) So Japanese ASW was not as lackluster as some think.

TMO's escorts are largely ineffective in early war(why i use the harder escort mod when playing 41-42 and early 43) but once hit mid 43 or so, the escorts get better and better at their job.Pretty much how it was.

[Ducimus]

Halibut was damaged so severely in late 1944 after an effective depth charging that she never made war patrol again, damaged too severely to justify repair.

Read the book on that. "Take her deep" was the name of it i believe, written by the Halibut's captain if i remember right. Summation was they were the first recorded victim's of Japanese use of MAD. Many in the CT and CR heard an odd noise, which was soon followed by a very accurate depth charging. Such that it was, that the pressure hull in the conning tower was dented inward, (how much so i don't remember but it was substantial), and the conning tower had to be abandoned for fear the bulkhead would collapse. There's a bit more to this story, but the end result was the Halibut was unsafe to submerge after this incident and had to be retired.

[Bubblehead1980]

I plan on reading that book ducimus, take it it's worth it?

I went on my little soapbox there because i believe some have the impression that the Japanese ASW was ineffective and nothing to worry about, which is just wrong.

Any good links on MAD?

[Ducimus]

I plan on reading that book ducimus, take it it's worth it?
...
Any good links on MAD?

I thought so. I read what i can to gain as much insight as possible. As for MAD, you'll find all sorts of info here from the horse's mouth.
http://ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/USSBS/IJO/index.html
Search that page for "convoy", "escort", "mad" or "protection" and read the article.

Ducimus,

I(n) your opinion ...how does your mods DD/DE AI compare with GWX 3.0?

That is an interesting question, but your asking the difference between apples and oranges. The difference here is not in modders or a modders ability to make sound choices on sensors and mod them correctly and fairly - but in sensor's, what is appropriate or too much for the given theater, differences in game engine, and enviromental effects.

There's a rough spot in a couple places, but overall what ive done i feel is challenging enough, fair, and theater appropriate. Your question would be a fairer question to ask if I and GWX were both modding the same theater. That, and honestly, i haven't played GWX since 1.03 i think. So i have no knowledge of their current AI settings. But If we were modding the same theater, then i would say, (based on my knowledge of GWX 1.03), that i could make far better AI adjustments from what ive seen.

[Faamecanic]

Fair enough ducimus.... I will just give TMO a whirl then and decide for myself.

As far as the difference between GWX 1.03 and 3.0...there is a world of difference. Just the fact the AI sub hunters use teamwork to hunt is amazing (1 DD sits and listens at your last pos, while 2 or 3 active sonar search).

I guess my question was more or less asking, is your mod like some I have seen where if a DD gets a lock on your position, they never seem to loose that lock and your are dead. By your reply it seems that is not the case, that while the AI is better its not invincible. Again I will just download the mod and give her a spin around a patrol or two.

[Bubblehead1980]

No the TMO AI is not one where it gets a lock and never loses it, depends on sonar conditions but even in ideal you can fool them, but they are tough.TMO escorts use teamwork.One will sit quietly and listen while other drops charges on you.

I found the "Dykers method" of evasion(named after Skipper of USS Jack, Tommy Dykers) to be the best method to evade TMO escorts.Since I began using it, they have not destroyed me or crippled me, caused minor damage by lucky charges but thatll happen now and then, sometimes a lucky one will sink you, name of the game.

Dykers method is a constant slow turn and change of direction.Silent running 1 knot, right full ridder.This part is my own doing and is something must do to avoid charges in TMO, DD charges in pinging roaring overhead, go to rudder amidships, you hear the splashes of charges, ahead flank, start the timer...make run of 60 seconds, all stop, left full rudder(in this case, but go whatever opposite of the rudder setting you had before the speed burst) let the momentum from the run carry you through, once speed drops to 1 or 0 knots, back to one knot.After some time and the submerged zigging, they will lose you.Also need to go pretty deep usually, just puts space between you and the charges, gives you time to evade.I believe Ducimus said he designed TMO so player would have to push the limits of the boat, well usually you have to.

[Powerthighs]

Dykers method is a constant slow turn and change of direction.Silent running 1 knot, right full ridder.This part is my own doing and is something must do to avoid charges in TMO, DD charges in pinging roaring overhead, go to rudder amidships, you hear the splashes of charges, ahead flank, start the timer...make run of 60 seconds, all stop, left full rudder(in this case, but go whatever opposite of the rudder setting you had before the speed burst) let the momentum from the run carry you through, once speed drops to 1 or 0 knots, back to one knot.After some time and the submerged zigging, they will lose you.Also need to go pretty deep usually, just puts space between you and the charges, gives you time to evade.I believe Ducimus said he designed TMO so player would have to push the limits of the boat, well usually you have to.


Thanks, good info!

[Faamecanic]

No the TMO AI is not one where it gets a lock and never loses it, depends on sonar conditions but even in ideal you can fool them, but they are tough.TMO escorts use teamwork.One will sit quietly and listen while other drops charges on you.

I found the "Dykers method" of evasion(named after Skipper of USS Jack, Tommy Dykers) to be the best method to evade TMO escorts.Since I began using it, they have not destroyed me or crippled me, caused minor damage by lucky charges but thatll happen now and then, sometimes a lucky one will sink you, name of the game.

Dykers method is a constant slow turn and change of direction.Silent running 1 knot, right full ridder.This part is my own doing and is something must do to avoid charges in TMO, DD charges in pinging roaring overhead, go to rudder amidships, you hear the splashes of charges, ahead flank, start the timer...make run of 60 seconds, all stop, left full rudder(in this case, but go whatever opposite of the rudder setting you had before the speed burst) let the momentum from the run carry you through, once speed drops to 1 or 0 knots, back to one knot.After some time and the submerged zigging, they will lose you.Also need to go pretty deep usually, just puts space between you and the charges, gives you time to evade.I believe Ducimus said he designed TMO so player would have to push the limits of the boat, well usually you have to.

Yep good info.... I remember reading that with GWX 3.0 when depth charges are going off you still couldnt go flank ahead as the DDs would still hear you. This was explained as a SH3 game engine flaw and not reflective of real life.

Not sure if this really is true of SH3... and if it is, is this something SH4 fixed (DDs being deaf during DC attack)?

[Bubblehead1980]

The depth charges exploding themselves do not mask your sound but the roar of the enemys engines DO mask your sound while they are close.In RL sonar conditions were crap for a few minutes after the explosions of depth charges, which often helped subs escape.This is not mirrored in the game, which takes away realism but im actually kind of glad its like that, would be rather easy to lose them.

Hope you find the Dykers method helpful.