Windows 7 & Silent Hunter 4

[ATR-42]

comments, tips, suggestions, experience?

Just installed Windows 7 Pro 64 bit and want to get SH4 back on the machine.

after reading http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1089335&postcount=1 which relates to vista, Warhawk recommends creating a new folder in the C drive for the install... and thats really about it.

do i need to follow the instructions for Vista? or just run the install and let it rip?



Rig Specs:
EVGA780i
E6700 duo
creative xfi gamer
EVGA 8800GTS
4gig of ram


ps. after being dedicated to xp since 2001, im lovin' win7 ;)

[Satchrat]

HI.
My first post here :yeah: just wanted to say that i run SH4 on W7 without any problems at all :woot: (Tried 1.4 and 1.5) Let it rip my man!

Finaly something i have the answer too :rotfl2:

[irish1958]

Since Windows7 is based on Vista, I decided to install all my games in a separate folder. I could see no downside from doing this and suspected a lot of grief in I didn't.

[ATR-42]

Much appreciated guys, thanks...

i'll push this one step further...

has anyone used MutliSH4 to accomplish dual SH4 installs on windows 7?

[jazman]

I have Win7 Pro x64, and an NVIDIA 8600 GT. I have had great trouble installing NVIDIA's video drivers, and have re-installed the OS once, and finally have managed to clean off all the NVIDIA stuff I installed and reverted to the driver supplied with Windows. You can't mess with the AA and AF settings with it, so I'm not even going to try to put SH4 on this box.

(The trouble began after I installed the 186.84 drivers, and couldn't change flat panel scaling, and tried to upgrade to 191.07, and everything went to pieces. I've been doing this for years, and tried everything. The trouble is with installing the NvCpl.dll, according to the event log.)

For those itching for some shiny new OS, I recommend waiting a while, usually SP1.

[ATR-42]

im a little surprised your experience has been a PITA...
ive been really, really impressed with the transition to Win7.

i did a clean install of Win7, unplugged it from the internet, installed, motherboard, video and sound drivers, in that order and the entire install went off without a hitch. the graphics seem to be plugging along.

that being said, i have not installed SH4 yet, or run any games or tweeked graphics in the Nvidia control panel.

I will likely get into this in the next day or so.

is the bios on your mother board and graphics card up to date? did you download the drivers from nvidia directly?

i was surprised how well the nvidia drivers set up on win7 after i was done installing everything.

[jazman]

im a little surprised your experience has been a PITA...

...

i was surprised how well the nvidia drivers set up on win7 after i was done installing everything.

I have tried everything. You'll have to trust me, but I just about overheated a Google server farm.

[ATR-42]

lol good luck! I'll report back :)

[irish1958]

MultiSH4 (and SH3) work well under windows7 on my computer. I have a Nvidia 9800m GTS video card with one Gb of memory. I have been happy with the 186.84 driver so I haven't upgraded to the 191.xxx.

[Highbury]

For those itching for some shiny new OS, I recommend waiting a while, usually SP1.

I have to disagree. With the amount of public testing that W7 has had..

Almost every second windows is a "fixed" version of the last one. 98 was an improved 95, XP an improved Me, and 7 an improved Vista. I am no Microsoft fanboy, but I don't think people need to wait on 7 like with older Windows versions in the past.

I use all kinds of mix and match peripherals for flight sims (stick, rudder, pedals.. all different brands) and nothing on my PC had any trouble in Win 7 compared Vista. Everything has worked well from the start.

[Red Devil]

I am not even going to go down the Win 7 road yet as I have been told it requires a clean install, and I have so much stuff on my pc, its unbelieveable.

[ATR-42]

Red Devil,
I upgraded from XP to Win7, it does require a clean install. Vista to Win7 is 'inline' upgrade meaning you dont have to back up.

well im gonna put SH4 on the rig now and i'll report back...

[Red Devil]

Thanks, maybe my informant was muxed ip?

[ATR-42]

thread drift warning ;)

there are lots of mixed up informants, i thought i had my ducks in a row for what exactly i needed to buy until the BestBuy employee added his 10 cents which completely threw me off, and was wrong! I spent lots of time on my phone in the store, back on the web re-clearing the muddy waters. The BestBuy floor rep stated that XP was not a qualifying OS for the upgrade price (which it is). A XP to Win7 does require a complete overwrite, for the install (which is good anwyays). If you buy the 'upgrade' and have win XP, XP must be installed on the hard disk prior Win7 allowing the clean install. I paid the extra bones to just buy the full retail (non upgrade) version so in the future when i build another PC i dont have to install XP first, install on a blank HD. if your going from XP you're going to have to do a clean install anyways, no matter which license you buy, its all the same, its a matter of the value of your time.

i found this Licensing grid very helpful, id post the full graphic but its huge...
http://i.zdnet.com/blogs/license-and-media-matrix.png?tag=col1;post-1514 (http://i.zdnet.com/blogs/license-and-media-matrix.png?tag=col1;post-1514)


full article here from ZD net
http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=1514

[Red Devil]

ATR thanks for that, so I presume my OEM Vista on an HP computer can be upgraded to 7 without anything being removed?

Regarding video decoders, I have div x installed, amybe thats what you need???

[ATR-42]

Red,
I believe you are correct. you can purchase the upgrade, do an inline update (without backing up). by looking at that chart I'd venture to say if you buy a new PC down the road youd still be able to install win7 on it using the license you're going to buy.

[Red Devil]

The thing with Direct x is that you can install it from the cd, then it runs off and does an update, or should do, either manually or via win update.

[ATR-42]

All subs up and running :)

i'll save you guys some trouble with win7 install, mostly obvious stuff that i foolishly overlooked.

- prior to installing SH4, go to microsoft and install directx (duh for me missing that)

- for some reason my DVD drive didnt initially recognize the SH4 dvd, a reboot fixed that.

- i ran the install program from within the CD and allowed SH4 to install into the default directory. Same goes for Uboat add on. I ran the installer as admin. During the DVD inital install in only checked install SH4 and windows media player codecs (not sure if i needed to add the codecs or not) but i left everything else unchecked.

(i run two copies for Sh4, one for US and other for German)

- from windows made a copy of the SH4 folder and renamed it, i put MultiSH4 in the copied directory.

- Ran MultiSH4 as an admin and also verified both SH4.exe's were set up to run as admins as well.

- JSGME was next, and the mods didnt take when i launched the game, JSGME needs to be run as an admin for it to work when you install JSGME, and when you run it from the root folder or the mods wont take. do this BEFORE enabling any mods. (this is clearly stated in the read me, which i did not read) :damn: :D

good luck guys happy sailing, so far single player ops on win7 seem just as fast if not smoother than under winXP. Gonna tweek graphics card now. Edit 2, was able to tweek Nvidia control panel and set up Mouse. no problems SH4 runs great!

EDIT 3
setting the mouse up was a PITA, im running a Logitech MX Revolution using SetPoint v4.8 with uberoptions.
in order to get setpoint to 'switch tasks' and allow your custom mouse button mappings for SH4 it needs to run as an administrator. However UAC in Vista and Win7 is set up so that no program can run as an administrator when the OS starts up. So it wont auto start on boot. The fix for this is to set setpoint to run as Admin, then move it from startup to another folder, then create a Task for windows to run Setpoint as a scheduled task when you login (startup). These two web sites are what I referenced, and it worked like a charm.

http://slickdeals.net/forums/showpost.php?p=6480998&postcount=1

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=91724

[ColonelSandersLite]

Almost every second windows is a "fixed" version of the last one. ... XP an improved Me

Wrong, xp was built off of windows 2000 (NT Kernel), not ME. In fact, if you're unfamiliar with 2k and load it up, it's almost identical to xp. XP has a new splash screen, new visual themes, and a few new technical capabilities you'd have to dig to find, but that's about it really.

2k was a good solid and *very* stable OS. ME was a greedy POS. In tech circles, for those of us that where around to remember ME, it's remembered as a very bad joke. If memory serves, Microsoft even dropped support for ME before they dropped support for 98. The very fact that Microsoft outright dropped it in favor of the NT kernel, when they're usually persistent to the point of stupidity, speaks volumes.

[jazman]

Here's the story:

I did another fresh install (I got Win 7 Pro x64), maybe third time's a charm. I had been trying to install a couple of Windows Live apps, and they were failing on installer problems. Argh, a corrupt Win Installer install?? So, try again.

I installed apps in a different order, and I eventually get failures with the Windows Installer (reported as error 1719 in the Event Log). I went through all the rigamarole trying to fix up my Windows Installer (msiexec.exe). Yet this app, which had installed in a previous Win 7 setup, was now failing. Ugh.

I looked around in the registry. Serendipity: for the Windows Installer service, there is a registry REG_DWORD called WOW64 and it was set to "1". I changed it to "0", stopped the Windows installer service (even though set to Manual, it starts when needed, and it was started), and my 64-bit app installed fine. So that was it with all my installer problems (and probably caused my NVIDIA install / uninstall problems at the start).

So one of my apps had tweaked this value, as I was working down my list of things to install, and didn't re-set it, and the 64-bit app that was failing to install was trying to use the 32-bit Windows Installer, and that didn't work. I have a Win XP x64 box, and have never seen this. I'm tickled that I figured this out on my own, although I would have been very happy to have found this tip on the web.

FYI, the 64-bit binaries for OS things are in C:\Windows\system32, and the 32-bit binaries are in C:\Windows\SysWOW64. Yeah, that's Microsoft. (And there's a similar thing in the registry, go down the Wow6432Node branch to find 32-bit registry stuff.)

So I still have a minor NVIDIA glitch. I'm using the drivers supplied by MS, not ones I fetched from NVIDIA and installed. I set the flat panel scaling, and it works, but the NVIDIA Control Panel doesn't show the setting right, it always shows "Use my display's built-in scaling", but if go through selecting a different one, clicking "Apply", and saying "Yes" in the confirmation dialog, it actually is set to what I set, no matter what the control panel shows.

[Red Devil]

I have a GeForce 9400 GS 1 GB Ram built in (might be more?) and it was a bit dodgy at first, so I downloaded the latest driver direct from Nvidia and - sweet as hell, runs beautifully. The old line, always use the latest drivers is oh so true.

[ATR-42]

not sure what ive changed, but SHIV went from working fine to not even launching at all..

when i launch SH4 as admin, the spinning wheel comes on, then just goes back to mouse arrow. nothing changes, and nothing happens, for a split second a folder pops into task bar but it goes away immediately.

if i open the task manager i can see SH4.exe running as a process and occupying a considerable amount of memory but thats it. :cry:

---Edit---
Completely Uninstalled and reinstalled with no saved prior data, and it did not fix the issue

anyone?

---Edit 2--- SOLVED ---
ugh, that just took 3 hours to figure out...
after messing with countless graphics settings, uninstalling, reinstalling, digging into all sorts of strange things.. i ended up changing the ONE setting change i made two days ago since the SH4 last worked... DPI ?!

whenever i set custom text size larger than the preselected 125%, SH4.exe will launch in the task manager process but the application wont show. I tried, 130, 135, and 140, all failed. the only ones that worked were Display text DPI preset of 100% or 125%

i was looking forward to a few hours of playing but now i just need a beer to calm down...

[Red Devil]

The biggest problem when trying to solve a dodgy game is that the person replying needs to know as much about the home system as possible, so that he may spot a glaring answer not prominent to the poster.

Make
Processor
Video Card & RAM
RAM on MB
DVD/CD drive

and anything you may think is relevant.

Not trying to teach anyone to suck eggs, its just that sometimes we forget .......................

[ATR-42]

When i make changes to the Nvidia control panel under either global or SH4.exe it doesnt seem like they are really taking effect.

SOME are, cause i can bring the frame rate down by changing some of the settings, but i should be able to bring SH4 to its knees by cranking the AA and AF waaay up, and if i had to guess it doesnt look like AA or AF is past 2x, if anything at all.

the graphics did clean up really nice after making some changes but i dont think the heavy hitting settings, AA and AF are adjusting properly...

Nvidia 191.07 64 bit
8800GTS

[TopcatWA]

I'm now running Windows 7 Ultimate 64-Bit & all I did to get SHIV to run smootlhy was to do a complete clean install, setup the options of my
previous saved games & transpose the SH4 (saved games) into My Documents folder & that completed the installation apart from reloading
my mods back on via JSGME.

All my drivers are what I have had installed on my previous O/S WinXP Pro Corp Edition
64-Bit.

Cheers

[Red Devil]

My screen is locked on 60mhz. Its a flat screen 19 inch ACER monitor.

[dbf574]

I am not even going to go down the Win 7 road yet as I have been told it requires a clean install, and I have so much stuff on my pc, its unbelieveable.

Unless you're talking about programs, Microsoft has an extraction tool that works great... you'll need an external HD.
I just went from XP 32bit to Windows 7 64bit, the extraction tool placed the contents of my 'Documents' folder in their proper locations as well as the other folders I had designated for transfer. It was pretty much painless 'clean' install since the 7 automatically installs all required drivers that Microsoft has on file during the OS install. Couldn't load SHIII, but SH IV loaded effortlessly. As did World in Conflict.
Has anyone gotten SHIII to work?

Windows 7 64bit
Core2Duo E6450 3.00GHz
EVGA GeForce 8800 GTS 512
4 Gig Ram (Crucial 4-4-4-12)
Raid 0 setup (C), with a "Games" HDD (G)
Samsung 2233sw 21.5" monitor

[Red Devil]

Just to clarify, you extracted folders to the external HDD, then used the same tool to 'extract' them back again after clean install?

Whats the url for this interesting tool?

[irish1958]

Has anyone gotten SHIII to work?

Yes, but you need the disc without Starforce to get it installed.

[dbf574]

Just to clarify, you extracted folders to the external HDD, then used the same tool to 'extract' them back again after clean install?

Whats the url for this interesting tool?

Yes, just go to the microsoft website and view the "upgrading to Windows 7" section and the proceedure is all there. The tool is also on that site:rock:

[dbf574]

Yes, but you need the disc without Starforce to get it installed.

Thank you, I guess that I'll have to go and purchase a more recent edition. Got mine when it first came out.

Will the GWX work also?

Again, thank you:salute:

[Rockin Robbins]

Now, it IS possible to upgrade XP to 7 without the clean install bit. However, it is a two step process, which I will eventually follow.

First, the upgrade from XP to Vista is an inline upgrade with programs and settings remaining in place. You can upgrade to an evaluation version and don't even have to register Vista, you'll not be using it!:D

Now you have a temporarily crippled computer, using the operating system from hell. Not to worry, that will change in a short time.:up:

Now upgrade your unregistered, unused Vista to Windows 7. Voila, no reinstalls, no data porting, just a two-step inline upgrade. It reportedly works fine and I've read several accounts from people who have done it.

I have Acronis True Image so I can restore the original XP if anything goes wrong. Backup is recommended no matter what your upgrade path is. With backup you can do this without fear. That's important. Fear inspires boneheaded moves sometimes.:O:

Once I upgrade, now that I have my printer driver situation solved, my only incompatibility will be Acronis True Image, which I will have to upgrade. If I have to restore XP, I have a boot CD to do that with.

It sounds like fun but I'm in no hurry to upgrade from an operating system I'm happy with. XP still rocks!

Did you say the extraction tool transfers applications and their associated registration settings, not just data?

[dbf574]

Now, it IS possible to upgrade XP to 7 without the clean install bit. However, it is a two step process, which I will eventually follow.

First, the upgrade from XP to Vista is an inline upgrade with programs and settings remaining in place. You can upgrade to an evaluation version and don't even have to register Vista, you'll not be using it!:D

Now you have a temporarily crippled computer, using the operating system from hell. Not to worry, that will change in a short time.:up:

Now upgrade your unregistered, unused Vista to Windows 7. Voila, no reinstalls, no data porting, just a two-step inline upgrade. It reportedly works fine and I've read several accounts from people who have done it.

I have Acronis True Image so I can restore the original XP if anything goes wrong. Backup is recommended no matter what your upgrade path is. With backup you can do this without fear. That's important. Fear inspires boneheaded moves sometimes.:O:

Once I upgrade, now that I have my printer driver situation solved, my only incompatibility will be Acronis True Image, which I will have to upgrade. If I have to restore XP, I have a boot CD to do that with.

It sounds like fun but I'm in no hurry to upgrade from an operating system I'm happy with. XP still rocks!

Did you say the extraction tool transfers applications and their associated registration settings, not just data?

If the question was directed at me, it will contain your files and settings. You'll be able to verify by going to the Microsoft website and you'll need to review their instruction on "Upgrading from Windows XP to Windows 7". It worked great for me, Easy Transfer doesn't move your programs, only your files and settings, then you'll need to reinstall your programs by hand after Windows 7 installation is complete.
It's cheaper doing it this way!:yep:

[Faamecanic]

Almost every second windows is a "fixed" version of the last one. 98 was an improved 95, XP an improved Me, and 7 an improved Vista. I am no Microsoft fanboy, but I don't think people need to wait on 7 like with older Windows versions in the past.


Actually WinXp was an improved and more friendly version of Windows NT.

I just installed Windows 7 as a dual boot with my XP until I determine if all the games I play work. Dual boot setup was easy as pie.... I did have to split my system drive (which you can do inside Vista's Drive manager.. but not with WinXP) using a VERY cool Linux based freeware program called GParted Live. Basically it makes a Linux bootable CD so you can boot with the CD and your system drive is unmounted and able to shrink its size.

With that said the ONLY problem I have encountered with Win 7 is it will not recognize one of my 4 partitions. Win XP sees all (WinXP partition, Win7, Games, and the one that wont recognize is my Downloads (drivers, music, game patches). Looks like I will have to move that 100+ GB of data onto an external drive and reformat that partition.... grrr...

[TopcatWA]

Faamecanic wrote:
Quote:
"With that said the ONLY problem I have encountered with Win 7 is it will not recognize one of my 4 partitions. Win XP sees all (WinXP partition, Win7, Games, and the one that wont recognize is my Downloads (drivers, music, game patches). Looks like I will have to move that 100+ GB of data onto an external drive and reformat that partition.... grrr... "

I had a similar problem when I installed Win7 & to solve the problem I went into Computer Management-Disk Management & found that the hard drive with the unrecognised partition was listed, so I did a refresh & renamed the partition......problem solved.
This may work for you.

Cheers

[moscowexile]

dbf574 asked: "Has anyone gotten SHIII to work?"

I have. Installed SHIII GWX3.0 Gold with additional mods yesterday without any problems in my bought the day before yesterday new rig that has the following specs: MS windows 7 Home Basic, AMD Athlon II X4620 Processor, 4.0GB RAM, NVIDIA GeForce GT230.

Most of this day (Christmas Eve) I've been trying in vain to install SH4 1.5 modded with RFB and RSRD.

Very disappointed.

Am still scouring the web trying to find out how I can overcome this incompatibility problem.

[moscowexile]

Got it loaded into Windows 7 but without any mods.

I am now downloading RFB and RSRD again to make sure that I have no uncorrupted files and then I shall add them one by one and see what happens.

I finally got the whole modded SH4 1.5 loaded today but kept getting CTD after a couple of minutes into historical battles after having speeded up the game whilst cruising.

I got it loaded by first going to the Nvidia control panel and zeroing or switching off all Nvidia tweaks and adjusting the game using the game options. I thought I had cracked it, but then CTD.

I shall report again on how things develop with the newly downloaded mods.

[Webster]

Just to clarify, you extracted folders to the external HDD, then used the same tool to 'extract' them back again after clean install?

Whats the url for this interesting tool?


you may want to consider upgrading your HDD at the same time since the 32mb cache HDD with 500 GB capacity are only $50-60 or $80-100 for 1TB drives these days

if you have an older drive its very likely to only be an 8mb cache or at best a 16mb cache

that is what i am doing, after installing windows i plug in the old drive and simply copy all files to the new disk and im done. i also know 100% certain i wont lose any files this way.

[moscowexile]

I have solved the mod problem: in rebuilding SH4 5 + RFB + RSRD I had inadvertently installed the wrong RSRD mod. However, contrary to what I had repeatedly been told by Microsoft forums and others on the web, namely that SH4 could only work on Windows after a virtual Windows XP program had been installed and that such a program could only be installed into Windows 7 Premium and higher, I found out that the procedure I have already described above would allow SH4 to be installed in Windows 7.

It seems to me that Microsoft is all too often in the habit of informing its customers of incompatibilities that can be fixed if one searches for information on the web. For example, I was told both by HP and Microsoft that my old faithful HP LaserJet 1012 would have to be ditched: not true! I got it up and running with MS7 thanks to advice found in different web forums. Likewise my old HP ScanJet 3400C.

My advice to others who feel that they are being forced into buying new software is: don't throw in the towel too early! There's often a way to sidetrack these so-called incompatibilities.

[green_abobo]

i got it to install on windows 7 no problem. it wont run proprerly though. i'm guessing it has something to do with the display settings.

as soon as the initial load screen pops,the screen goes black,and it shows a little VGA indicater in the upper-right hand corner of the flat panel monitor. i can hear the audio,and it is running under task manager.

i read in another thread to make sure the install IS NOT the default directory that the game suggests.

same drive,just not the program files folder.

any ideas?

here's some specs:

------------------
System Information
------------------

Operating System: Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit (6.1, Build 7600) (7600.win7_rtm.090713-1255)
Language: English (Regional Setting: English)
System Manufacturer: Compaq-Presario
System Model: AU884AA-ABA CQ5205Y
BIOS: Phoenix - AwardBIOS v6.00PG
Processor: AMD Sempron(tm) Processor LE-1300, ~2.3GHz
Memory: 2048MB RAM
Available OS Memory: 1918MB RAM
Page File: 1907MB used, 1929MB available
Windows Dir: C:\Windows
DirectX Version: DirectX 11
DX Setup Parameters: Not found
User DPI Setting: 120 DPI (125 percent)
System DPI Setting: 96 DPI (100 percent)
DWM DPI Scaling: Disabled
DxDiag Version: 6.01.7600.16385 32bit Unicode

---------------
Display Devices
---------------
Card name: NVIDIA GeForce 6150SE nForce 430
Manufacturer: NVIDIA
Chip type: GeForce 6150SE nForce 430
DAC type: Integrated RAMDAC
Device Key: Enum\PCI\VEN_10DE&DEV_03D0&SUBSYS_2A6C103C&REV_A2
Display Memory: 825 MB
Dedicated Memory: 121 MB
Shared Memory: 703 MB
Current Mode: 1440 x 900 (32 bit) (60Hz)
Monitor Name: Generic PnP Monitor
Monitor Model: 905W
Monitor Id: SVA1992
Native Mode: 1440 x 900(p) (59.887Hz)
Output Type: HD15
Driver Name: nvd3dumx.dll,nvd3dum
Driver File Version: 8.17.0011.9621 (English)
Driver Version: 8.17.11.9621
DDI Version: 9Ex
Driver Model: WDDM 1.0
Driver Attributes: Final Retail
Driver Date/Size: 1/11/2010 23:03:33, 11862120 bytes
WHQL Logo'd: n/a
WHQL Date Stamp: n/a
Device Identifier: {D7B71E3E-4090-11CF-1956-670A1CC2C535}
Vendor ID: 0x10DE
Device ID: 0x03D0
SubSys ID: 0x2A6C103C
Revision ID: 0x00A2

this is not my computer,but a common household one,so i'm not too familiar with it. it appears to have enough ram and processing speed to run the game.

any suggestions/revelations are greatly appreciated in advance.

[ATR-42]

Start changing your resolution settings... U just need to get your display driver and silent hunters resolution to match up.

I had a problem similar to this. Once u get them to play nice you'll see the menu and will be able to adjust the game resolution. Also make sure your directx has been and is installed properly.

[green_abobo]

i tend to agree with you,still wrestling with it.

the beginning "ubi/time" movies run,then the video croaks.the title screen will appear if i alt/tab out of the application,i can hear the audio,just a video problem,as it vanishes after a second.

i have installed it w/ the DX9 option,in a separate folder other than program files. i dont understand how having two direct X versions can be beneficial though. i now know you need DX 9 to run SH4,but it must be conflicting with DX 11.

the crazy thing being,it acts the same way it did before i did a re-install complete with DX 9.

i keep telling myself it's something minor that i'm over-looking. it's also a bit dis-heartening to know that eventually,XP will be a fossil, and i will be forced to try and get this game to work with windows 7.

on the bright side,this is good practice anyway.

[ATR-42]

In the nvidia control panel start turning OFF all the frills too, like AA and AF. Make changes under both the program AND global in the control panel.

[Armistead]

Programs know what ver of DX to use. You can have multi installs without conflicts..

[countvonaltibar]

Managed to install SH4 onto windows 7 and seems to be playing without any issues so far, excellent!

[Red Devil]

its been ok on mine for a long time now Quad core Win 7