Who Broke The Deck Gun?!

[Commander Gizmo]

I have noticed on many occasions that my deck gun seems to have it's aim a bit off. Usually this is just a little bit off on the horizontal axis, though it can at times be so bad that the targeting reticule does not even cover the actual location the shell will hit. Rather than fire at the point to which my targeting HUD is pointing, it fires at a spot up to 800m offset. This doesn't apply when firing without zooming. It also appears to change quite a bit between shots at times and when rotating the gun.

Can someone clue me in as to what causes this in game and how to fix it? Several searches turned up little useful information.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Are you using GWX?

If so are you using any other mods placed on top of GWX?

[Mopy]

This happens to me as well. Stock GWX3, no other mods. I asked a few months back and got no replies. I remember it happening in stock SH3 though, so maybe it's leftover from that.

It's fine at the start of a mission, but the more I use it, the more it skews and skews left/right to the point where my shots aren't even hitting at 700m at the first zoom level. It seems to get worse the more I use the gun within that mission. I have a feeling it may be to do with when the gun gets 'stuck' while you're rotating.

Either way, my solution is just to use it until it breaks, then fire without the zoom. Not useful for long range, but still. :salute:

[Commander Gizmo]

I find the same solution, which sucks. I am running GWX, and I have plenty of other mods installed. However, this happened with just GWX installed, vanilla SH3 and WSM, which has other guns/ships entirely. I have noticed that it seems to be lessened by rotating the gun directly over the bow and gets worse sometimes if the gun is rotated fully port or starboard. Therefore I think it might be an issue with a setting somewhere for adjusting the zoomed angle vs the actual rotation of the gun.

Any suggestions along that route perhaps?

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Okay guys. Some Silent Hunter history for you both.

With un-modded/stock SH3... ALL deck guns and ship-mounted guns were what we used to refer to as "laser-guided." (as were the depth charges)

NONE of the above weapons should strike their target with pinpoint accuracy with each firing as they did more often than not.

ALL GUNS IN GWX (both player-operated and AI-operated) have had the "laser guidance" INTENTIONALLY REMOVED... in both the horizontal and vertical (deflection and azimuth) axis'.

Furthermore, even with this arrangement, they are far more accurate than they should be when directly manned by the player. You should let your crew do the shooting with both deck guns and AA to achieve an effect which is closer to what it was in reality.

Also, the state of the environment will influence the accuracy of said fires. (sea state etc.)

Accuracy DOES NOT cumulatively degrade as you continue to fire. There is a minimum and maximum margin in the code.

These matters along with depth charge accuracy and sensor modifications were among the most rigorously tested during development of GWX.

Some rounds will hit and some rounds will miss. The best way to increase accuracy is to GET CLOSER TO YOUR TARGET before opening fire.

If you feel that perfect accuracy "sucks"... then good. All it means is that I did my job well.

Deck guns on U-boats were never intended to be a primary armament as it is. They were meant to finish off wounded prey.

Solution: Hold fire until you are within 1000 meters of the target. Shooting at a speck on the horizon doesn't work anymore and will only cause you to waste ammo.

[Lt.Fillipidis]

Actually this isnt quite what Cmdr Gizmo said.
I experienced the same thing too.
Sometimes the shell goes WAY over to the left/right from where we aimed.
And after that, the same. Again and again and again until i zoom out.
One thing i noticed though is that when this happens, the deck gun barrel seems to lean inner or outer of the center of the aiming lens.
As far as i know, the barrel and the lens were fixed so increasing or decreasing the angle between them isnt right.

[Commander Gizmo]

I appreciate the history lesson, I assure you. However, what you describe is known to me and not the issue I am describing.

The problem is that the gun simply fires off of the axis every time. I can still hit the target as accurately as I want simply by moving the center of the zoomed view over by the amount the gun has been offset. The only time the offset changes is when zooming in or out. Therefore, if I stay in the zoomed view, I can hit a target with all the accuracy I want so long as I remember which notch of the horizontal aiming lines represents the actual position of the gun. This is not dependent on distance except that the higher zoom level does not always have enough view to even cover the actual firing position of the gun.

Further, I have noticed this to be up to 30 degrees (estimated by eye) from the center of the zoom view to the actual firing direction of the gun (at a range of 4-5km that can be as much as 800 meters it seems). This is so bad that if I fire a shell from the gun without zooming and then immediately zoom in, I cannot see the target at all!

The amount of offset seems to change each time the gun is manned or the zoom is changed. It also appears to change as the gun is rotated (which I hold as the most likely source of the issue to begin with), resulting in a greater offset the closer to 90 degrees from the bow/stern line.

[Letum]

Yes, I have had this issue too.
it's not an issue about accuracy, but one of offset.

Interestingly, it seams to be worse at some gun azimuths than others.

Defiantly not what you are talking about Lehmann.

[SeaWolf U-57]

Yes I have seen this too I don't think anyone can claim credit for this no matter how hard they try ..Its nothing to do with the game as We say it should be Gang.
it also happens if you are depth Charged or have a slight collision also after air attack.
its like the sight is off-set.
It also happens in stock.
its best just to let the gun crew take over as they still shot ok.

Edit.. its a bit like when you look through the Binoculars and then return to normal veiw the Horizon is also off-set

[Iranon]

I'm getting the same issue from time to time, and I don't think it's related to an intentional reduction of deck gun accuracy because that would be... incredibly badly done, especially by the high standards of GWX.

Shots go off in the horizontal axis by far too much for an intended accuracy decrease especially at short range; it seems to have something to do with the offset rather than the angle. It's is also far too consistent/reproducable; as has been said you can still hit accurately if you take into account by how much the gun is off. The only thing this could model accurately is a broken/misaligned gun; not even operator error makes sense as the crew should either do this all the time or never.

There is some odd behaviour in the vertical axis that may or may not be intentional... sometimes the gunner apparently attempts to shoot down the moon, even in perfectly calm water.
This is slightly less jarring because that could be explained away by wave action (although it seems to be completely independent of the boat movement modeled in-game) and because it's not consistent - you can't simply fire at half the distance and rely on this error.

In either case, the current situation is that most shots are very accurate (not an expert, but more so than I would expect) and a few are so wide that I'm surprised I haven't shot my own conning tower off yet.

[Mopy]

things

:timeout:

I'm not criticising the job you did with anything - it's a stock issue, not a GWX specific problem, and it's very different from what you describe.

[Freiwillige]

Yes if you are in rough sea's (As rough as you can and still man deck gun) or if your decks awash and you are rotating your gun to the target. Then when ever a wave washes over the bow the gun stops for X amount of seconds than continues till aimed at target.

Now here is the underlying issue. The gun stops do to the wave issue but the sight keeps calculating the turn as if it was separate.

So if the gun stops .5 seconds the sight is off .5 seconds to the right. And remains that way till next patrol.

Its hard to explain but it is as I said. Ive tested it. Best bet is to let the crew man the gun if the waves are choppy.

[JScones]

Add another one to the list of people who have experienced this. I must admit, I never really thought about it and just assumed it was me. At least I know better now.

@Freiwillige, your explanation is easily understood here....and very plausible too. :up:

[Commander Gizmo]

Freiwillige, at first I thought the same as you. However, playing WSM where my guns are always available I have had this happen as well. My entire gun crew is fully decorated with medals and never gets tired so there is no reason for the gun to ever experience the event you describe. Thus, I wonder if it has more to do with rotating the view faster than the gun can move, which happens frequently.

Also, there is some odd behavior where certain azimuths are more offset than others as was previously mentioned. I have found no consistency with this as to which direction pointing the gun will get you the best results.

Another part of the puzzle is that simply going to the bridge (or other view) and back to the gun as fast as possible or with hours in between both result in a different offset.

[Weiss Pinguin]

I have to say, I don't think I've ever experienced this. Then again I've rarely manned the guns in marginal weather, and I usually let the AI crew man the cannons. (There's just something godlike about sitting in the conning tower pretending to direct your guncrew :smug:)


I know that's not very helpful, but I just thought it was really interesting that so many others had seen this and I hadn't. If you let the guncrew work the cannon, do they still fire far left/right of the target?

[SeaWolf U-57]

I have to say, I don't think I've ever experienced this. Then again I've rarely manned the guns in marginal weather, and I usually let the AI crew man the cannons. (There's just something godlike about sitting in the conning tower pretending to direct your guncrew :smug:)


I know that's not very helpful, but I just thought it was really interesting that so many others had seen this and I hadn't. If you let the guncrew work the cannon, do they still fire far left/right of the target?

Only if you are playing GWX then their settings will cause the gun to miss more often
the only way you will see what we are talking about is if you look through the gun sights yourself

[Kpt. Lehmann]

My apologies for apparently misunderstanding, guys. (It wasn't my intention to come across sounding 'angry' or anything like that.)

You are correct that the modifications we made to the guns were minimal and very conservative.

Is this issue consistent?

Can anyone post the bearing angles (from the bow in degrees to port or starboard) that the problem seems to be worst? (Also, noting the bearing angles at which the problem seems to be least, may also be helpful.)

I don't know what I'd be able to do about it... if anything at all, but maybe someday an idea will land on my desk.

Finding the time for anything extra these days is rather tough.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

AHHH!!! Now I think I understand. (Text conversation is so limited in capability. It was my impression that the actual accuracy of the gun was the issue... when the matter appears to relate only to the view through the sights being wonky in some situations.)

SeaWolf-U57 hit the note I needed to hear... because there is a close comparison available as he pointed out.


As SeaWolf-U57 pointed out with the binoculars: "its a bit like when you look through the Binoculars and then return to normal veiw the Horizon is also off-set "

Sometimes when you are on the bridge and you are looking through your binoculars at various objects, scanning the horizon etc... when you return to normal view looking straight ahead... you may sometimes see the the horizon is stuck at a wierd angle. (As if someone just broke your neck!)

The way to correct that is to left click on your bridge officer and then right click... BANG the horizon and default bridge view is back to normal.

Possible solution: When your gunsights apear to be offset, pop onto the bridge, left click on your bridge officer and then right click away from him.

Theoretically when you return to the deck gun, the view should be corrected.

(It would seem to be adviseable to avoid targetting objects at extreme limits of azimuths/bearings to the deck gun... as it appears that camera angle limits apparently don't match perfectly with the deck gun's full range of motion.)

[SeaWolf U-57]

I must admit I never tried that as all I did was allow a two -four degree off-set of what the sight is saying to make a hit.
it happens now and then and with any type of U-boat just like the Horizon thing and no doubt when you want it to happen it wont :salute:

[Jimbuna]

Yes if you are in rough sea's (As rough as you can and still man deck gun) or if your decks awash and you are rotating your gun to the target. Then when ever a wave washes over the bow the gun stops for X amount of seconds than continues till aimed at target.

Now here is the underlying issue. The gun stops do to the wave issue but the sight keeps calculating the turn as if it was separate.

So if the gun stops .5 seconds the sight is off .5 seconds to the right. And remains that way till next patrol.

Its hard to explain but it is as I said. Ive tested it. Best bet is to let the crew man the gun if the waves are choppy.

I think you've hit the nail squarely on the head.....this phenomena has long been an issue, but sadly an issue that has never been resolved.

[Letum]

Has it always been an issue?

I don't remember it in the early days.

[Commander Gizmo]

I can't say that I have ever experienced the bridge view issue. In fact, I am nearly positive I have never heard of it before. I will try the officer clicking trick and see what that does. I'll report the results of course. I can also play with the degrees of rotation and report on that too.


@Jimbuna: I can confirm with out any doubt that in WSM my gun has never had any trouble rotating while I was manning it. This makes sense when you consider that the guns operate in any weather and are far above the water level. This being the case, I think it makes it difficult for the bad weather issue to be the entire problem.

[Ilpalazzo]

Yeah I know of this problem. I thought everybody did. I believe I have had it in stock game. Hard to remember though:doh:

Super annoying, when it happens I just let the ai shoot for the rest of the patrol. I kinda preferred letting them do their job anyway.

Definitely gotta try that clicking on the watch guy thing..

[Commander Gizmo]

I have to say, there are few things sweeter than nailing those annoying torpedo boats with guns the size of their boat. I just love that. :D

[Task Force]

I know of this bug. It is where the sight is off afiew degrees to the left or right when aiming...

[Mopy]

Possible solution: When your gunsights apear to be offset, pop onto the bridge, left click on your bridge officer and then right click away from him.

Theoretically when you return to the deck gun, the view should be corrected.

Thanks for the idea, I'll give that a shot on the next patrol :up: Oddly I've never seen the Binocular equivalent occur.

[Commander Gizmo]

After some basic testing on my last patrol, I can say that the officer click trick did not effect my problem in any way.

What is more, the gun's offset was not there when rotated directly to towards the bow but was largest when the gun was rotated 90 degrees port or starboard.

Could the issue be solely camera related? Perhaps it can be fixed by playing with the zoomed camera data?


The issue could also be caused by the player manning the gun while the crew is rotating to a target. Perhaps the data just doesn't update fast enough and leaves you with an offset when you click into the gun view?

[GrumpySub]

Undoubtably way besides the point in terms of this thread, but for what it's worth I've always found firing the deck gun from the fully zoomed out view far more preferable anyway. Not only does it mean that you have to get much closer to your target before opening fire, but you can also use the u-boat's natural port-starboard and up-down rocking and bobbing motion to score hits below the target's waterline, by timing your shot as the barrel dips down.

[Commander Gizmo]

You have a great point there, and I use that same method quite often. But unfortunately most of my targets are shooting back. I especially find approaching battleships rather difficult in my destroyer.

[GrumpySub]

You have a great point there, and I use that same method quite often. But unfortunately most of my targets are shooting back. I especially find approaching battleships rather difficult in my destroyer.

Isn't it u-boat fighting tactics 101 never to engage in a surface gunnery duel with a target that can shoot back? :)

[Weiss Pinguin]

Isn't it u-boat fighting tactics 101 never to engage in a surface gunnery duel with a target that can shoot back? :)
Ah, but U-boat fighting tactics don't apply to destroyers ;)

[GrumpySub]

Ah, but U-boat fighting tactics don't apply to destroyers ;)

I don't know about that. If I was a destroyer captain I wouldn't see the point of even trying to engage in a shoot-out with a battleship! Are we talking about a mod here that converts u-boats to destroyers?

[Weiss Pinguin]

Yup, Chinese U-47's Warship Mod. It's pretty cool if you want a change of pace, I really wish proper submarine AI was ingame so we could play as the other side for a while. (Still hoping someone will remake Destroyer Command someday) Alas, though, we have to make do with surface engagements alone, which is exciting anyways. :smug:

[Commander Gizmo]

Ok, now that I had the chance I did some tests in perfect weather. Wind speed 0, boat at complete stop in open ocean. Not so much as a wave to effect my aiming.

Gun fires with offsets of exactly one mark to the right of center at full zoom in my 1934 Destroyer (VIIB). I find that rotating the gun to any angle yields the exact same result. Same results at 17 knots in same weather conditions.

So far, angle does not come into play and the officer click trick does nothing for me. Perhaps I'm not doing it right. You just click on the WO to talk to him and then right click to back out, yes?

[Ilpalazzo]

Yeah he's not working for me either.

[sh3rules]

I know this thread is quite old but some of us are still playing this flawed masterpiece. Has anyone found a solution/workaround for this? I have some experience with modding in case someone would tell me which files to change.