Turkey: an ally no more

[Skybird]

http://frontpagemag.com/2009/10/27/turkey-an-ally-no-more-by-daniel-pipes/print/

My thoughts exactly. I am most irritated that I did not see German media covering this. turkey was already a difficult partner before the fundamentalist AKP took over in 2002. Since then, the fundamentalists around Erdogan have caused a 180° turnaround of the Kemalist state doctrine of keeping state and islam separate, and have silently and massively mobbed secularists out of state offices, and brought orthodox Islamists into position. It seems the miliuzary failed it's constitutional duty to protect the state aginst islamic takeover - by having accepted too many of the West idiotic, stupid, incompetent demands for being more nice to Islam.

thankfully, chances have become smaller in the past months that Turkey ever makes it into the EU (even the Ahtissaris of this world will not stay in office forever). However, the idea of Turkey making it into the EU is a bigger nightmare now then it was ever before.

[Tribesman]

Daniel Pipes:doh:

[Shearwater]

To be fair, the Kemalist hardliners aren't exactly what I would want to have in the EU either. I wouldn't want to have a state in the EU in which the military still controls (or feels entitled to control) large parts of the government, but the perspective of a new member that is more and more drifting towards fundamentalism is, of course, even more disturbing.
Turkey closening its ties with Iran is a worrying development indeed, but it's just another reminder of why to me a EU membership is out of the question.

[PeriscopeDepth]

They were only an ally to the West because we (NATO during the Cold War) needed them throughout the Cold War and for our aerial policing of Iraq in the 1990s. Now we don't need them for either, and both the Turks and the West know it. Currently they have absolutely no leverage for gaining acceptance into the EU other than Euro PCness, which probably isn't enough to get them in.

Western acceptance of Turkey as an equal has been a goal of the Turks since shortly after WWI. The inability for the pro Western Turkish factions to execute on that for 80+ years has more or less killed the desire for Western integration IMO.

[Skybird]

Western acceptance of Turkey as an equal has been a goal of the Turks since shortly after WWI.

Considering the history of centuries before, I would not say they are looking for equality, but for dominance. You can see that in the repated attacks on europe as well as the claim of Islam not to be an equal amongst equals, but to be the one dominating all others, and in the way turkish nationalism and the Turkish government as well as the Turkish ministry for religion impertinently interferes with internal German politics in order to botzh strengthen Islam in Germany and increase the influence of Turkey inside Germany. All Imams they send to Germany are from their religion ministry (a ministry for propagating religion? so much for secularism), and they strictly oppose any idea of the German government to raise German Imams that should replace the Turkish religion ministry's influence in Germany and foster integration of Turkish immigrants. It's a damn shame that the Germans do not slam the door in the face of that ministry. Not to mention Erdogan having openly called for Turks in Germany to actively resist becoming integrated and instead strengthen Turkey in Germany (while he was on a visit in Germany last year).

I would have given that damn sucker the boot and kick him out, hopefully causing one of the biggest diplomatic rows of the decade by doing so.

First time I heared of Erdogan was when he was released from prison 1998 or 99. I searched some information about him then and then immedately thought: "Damn, why haven't they kept him behind locked doors? This guy is gonna give us some trouble." Well, he surely did, regarding Germany as well as regarding Israel and the whole EU. Not to mention that he let the Americans run against shut doors too during the war. Not too mention that he has wakened sleeping islam in Turkey again, too, which never was gone or deleted under Ataturk, just went into kind of wintersleep. And I cannot say this reawakening does Turkey any good. It never does. It sends their society backwards in time. You can see it on all levels of national administration and the legal system.

And the crowds now applaude it - this is the greatest change since I have been there myself in the early/mid nineties. The burgeoisie opposing orthodxy seems to shrink, like the authority of the military also wanes - systematically undermined and challenged by the fundamentalist government party AKP.

[PeriscopeDepth]

Considering the history of centuries before, I would not say they are looking for equality, but for dominance. You can see that in the repated attacks on europe as well as the claim of Islam not to be an equal amongst equals, but to be the one dominating all others, and in the way turkish nationalism and the Turkish government as well as the Turkish ministry for religion impertinently interferes with internal German politics in order to botzh strengthen Islam in Germany and increase the influence of Turkey inside Germany.
And I think you hit on the root of (IMO), crisis between Islamic countries and the West. The West has economically, militarily, and technologically dominated Islamic countries for centuries now; in no small part due to the rigidity of Islamic culture.

Moving away from that rigidity is very hard for many governments in Islamic countries. Because many of them ascended to power by being holier than their political opponents. Which works very well if the conditions are right in any country. Stepping away from the "holiness" that brought them to power, while necessary for integration into the Western world and reaping its economic benefits, can only be tried with half measures for many "hardline" Islamic governments.

Lucky for the ChiComs that they were never elected, created their own young religion, and they are still in power to shape it how they wish.

PD

[nikimcbee]

Jar my memory how all of the Turks wound up in Germany anyway. We talked about it once in German class, but that was a long time ago. More or less, it was a labor shortage (from the War) wasn't it?

[Tribesman]

More or less, it was a labor shortage (from the War) wasn't it?
No the guest worker program came with the worker shortage from partition coupled with the economic boom in the early 60s.

[Skybird]

Jar my memory how all of the Turks wound up in Germany anyway. We talked about it once in German class, but that was a long time ago. More or less, it was a labor shortage (from the War) wasn't it?

Not really labour shortage in general, but shortage in lowe-end jobs that Germans did not wish to work in themselves. However, the expectation was from the beginning that the "guest workers" indeed would be temporary guests only, and would not stay forever. And that'S how it was with most of the Italians, Greeks and Yugoslavs that came. Most Italians meanwhile went back, since long, so did most of the Greeks and Yugoslavs. Also, especially with the italioans we got alomng very well, so with the Greek. The cultural closeness shows there, that simple. These three nation'S guests also fitted in nicely nevertheless, and did not cause Germany any troubles. Those who stayed, are fully integrated and nobody has antipathic sentiments against them. The GDR's guest workers were not coming from turkey, but Vietnam. But again, except the famous Vietnamese cigarette crime gangs, the vietnamese do not give us any headaches and live unobtrusively amongst us. - The Turks however never meant to got back, and they stayed for themselves very much from the beginning on. They resisted to integrate themselves and they saw little need to learn the language. and very early on their nation demanded special deals on them from the German governments, that nobody else ever got or even has demanded.

Helmut Schmidt is maybe the most respected politician alive in Germany today, a specimen of this nowadays almost extincted species of true "statesmen"; although he is very old, he still gets heared, and usually his political analysis still are sharp like laserbeams and simply brilliant and right up to the point, and his moral assessements do not lack in value compared to his political comments. But even he admits that the German policy on guest workers was a terrible mistake, and a total misjudgement by the German government, and he confesses to be guilty to have contributed to this mistake himself while having been chancellor. He one called the Multi-Kulti dream of germany to be the biggest illusion since the war. He said that especially with regard to the Turks.

It is an inherent claim of Islam that wherever it puts its foot on the ground, that ground by that now is of Islam's and shall NEVER be given up again. While the single individual may not think and be concerned about these longterm policies that derive from Islamic dogma, these individuals neverthelss get used as kind of foot soldiers by those being aware of the inner dogma of Islam and actively trying to spread it in the world. the Turkish religion ministry certainly always has been amongst these background players. turkey also wanted to find relief from its high population pressure by forming kind of colonies in europe that both help to spread turkish influence in europe and help to enforce turkish entry into the EU - due to the already existing huge Turkish communities especially in Germany. The desire of Turkey to become strong, is always a two-sided thing: it derives from the Islamic dogma, but also from a strong inner-Turkish nationalism of old style and fashion. Nationalism and national pride, going hand in hand with Islam, are very strong in Turkey. I have several not so pleasant memories of it from my times there.

Ironically, the guest worker thing has reversed totally. Today, we do not get guest workers from Spain anymore. But Germans move to Spain and Holland and Denmark and even Poland to find work there that they could not find in Germany, or with only too miserable a payment. :D

Well mobility is all nice and well, but if you have tro be ready to crisscross a whole continent for a job, then imo something is wrong.

[baggygreen]

I've only ever considered Turkey was viewed as an ally of convenience. Their embracing of their more traditional counterparts should come as no surprise to anyone.

Ever so slightly off topic, but a thought came to me last night and I want to run it past you for some thoughts.

Islam is where christianity was 500 or even 400 years ago. Note I'm not calling them backward, so please hear me out.



their religion is the preeminent driving force behind all they do.
women for the most part have so few rights compared to menfolk
the 'enlightened' clergy decide whats best for the populace (somewhat generalised, i know)
islam is expanding from its traditional base to encompass more and more of the world. It is imposing itself on the populations of the new lands it is encountering, much like those in the new world and asia.

It stands to reason I suppose, that Islam is acting in a similar fashion to christianity, albeit several centuries later - both stem from judaism, and islam came several centuries after christianity.

What it also does is provide for an interesting discussion I think on the course or evolution of religion, which i suspect I'll cover in a university paper early next year.

thoughts?

[Tribesman]

It is an inherent claim of Islam that wherever it puts its foot on the ground, that ground by that now is of Islam's and shall NEVER be given up again.
I can see why you like Daniel Pipes, you both come from the same tree.

I've only ever considered Turkey was viewed as an ally of convenience.
All allies are allies of convenience really.