extreme waves (size and wavelength)

[rosentorf]

I think in SHV we need to have larger waves (higher and larger wavelength so it won't look ridiculous). This of course this means there must be a larger area wave pattern. It would also have the advantage of more realistic looking water from high altitudes in external camera view.

Yes, yes, I know this will suck your computers performance dry but I really want to feel like a nutshell in a big atlantic storm...Das Boot -style!!!:rock:

Correct me if I am wrong but this can not be hard to implement? Or at least make it moddable (moddable size of wave-pattern!?) as an option for users with high end machines.

let the oceans be mean and angry!

[ivank]

Agreed

[Task Force]

yea, in real life the waves in the ocean can be 50+ feet...

[THE_MASK]

15m/s waves in sh3 and 4 were pretty big but you dont get any perspective because of crappy graphics and wave model . Hopefully with photo realistic sub exterior and better modelled waves , the ocean will feel big with large waves .

[Sailor Steve]

Agreed, and I agree about the wave period (wavelength). It is possible in the Atlantic to have very high waves, but with such long periods that small boats ride them better than large ships. On the other hand, as soon as you enter the Channel the waves become much shorter and choppier, so much so that sailors can tell when they've made that transistion even when not in sight of either shore.

I would like to see the differences in different oceans properly represented - North Sea shallows, much calmer Mediterranean and Caribbean and like that.

[rosentorf]

It is possible in the Atlantic to have very high waves, but with such long periods that small boats ride them better than large ships.

That's exactly what I am going for. A perfect wave should "lift" a u-boat up significantly and the boat should accelerate or decelerate like surfing the waves.
I assume this would also affect periscope depth resulting in a more floating behavior when submerged. I doubt it was like it is now in SH4 where you stay at a seemingly exact depth anytime even is you conning tower surfaces every once in a while.

[Sailor Steve]

Yes, SH4 had the "riding the rails" problem. SH3, on the other hand, had your boat moving around quite a bit at periscope depth. You had to get down to 50 meters or so before it calmed down.

[rosentorf]

Yeah I noticed that in SH3 you have a stronger "boat in water"-experience. I still have it installed with GWX3. Unfortunately I do not like to play it as the TC is very low (I changed it to higher values but my PC can't take it - SH4 actually runs better on my computer regarding TC) and it takes forever to get to the action.
Another thing are the loading times...they always make me go back to SH4 after a short while.

This is why I have strong hopes on SHV as I do not like the u-boats in SH4.

[iambecomelife]

I also want to see vessel behavior in sheltered waters modeled correctly. I live near a port city, and the only vessels that bob in sheltered waters are tiny personal watercraft. Even small ships should stand still. There are usually a couple of container ships there and I've never noticed them moving while at anchor - even the small 400-450 foot vessels. Until Thomsen created his "Thomsen's Ships" mod for SH3, tankers and freighters moved like corks, regardless of the seastate & location. It can't be too much effort for the devs to get things correct right out of the box.

[Méo]

I think in SHV we need to have larger waves (higher and larger wavelength so it won't look ridiculous). This of course this means there must be a larger area wave pattern. It would also have the advantage of more realistic looking water from high altitudes in external camera view.:rock:

Agreed, this would be MAJOR improvement.

I would like to see the differences in different oceans properly represented - North Sea shallows, much calmer Mediterranean and Caribbean and like that.

Fingers crossed! :yep:

[Ilpalazzo]

I hated the way the boat behaved in the big waves. Like it was just hovering at a certain height, regardless of what the waves were doing. I want them to make that experience look realistic. It was embarrassing riding in the big waves in SH4. I tc right through it just so I don't have to look at it. Calmer sea's looked so nice (when they weren't jiggling!) that I would enjoy just leaving that view in real time on my monitor for some time.

While we're at it, how about the crew looking like they are actually affected by the waves/weather? I super hated how they would just disappear when the wave got to big, and then magically reappear when it was acceptable to them. I also hated when they would forget to disappear and would just stand there like nothing is happening when they were underwater. I'd rather they just not be there at all if those are my options.

We need a better rough sea experience all around. The wave, boat, and crew just aren't doing it right.

[Méo]

We need a better rough sea experience all around. The wave, boat, and crew just aren't doing it right.
I couldn't agree more, this should be one of the top priorities (just below wolfpacks :O:).

[JScones]

Yes, yes, I know this will suck your computers performance dry but I really want to feel like a nutshell in a big atlantic storm...Das Boot -style!!!:rock:
I'm sure the big Atlantic storms in Das Boot were simulated so can't qualify as a POR for authentic Atlantic storms. ;)

I'd be happy if waves were tied to both weather and region, much like what Sailor Steve has already stated.

[W_clear]

You want to have larger waves ?

We can be adjusted larger waves at SH4,But the game gave us the biggest wind velocity is -15 m,you can see the Beaufort scale:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaufort_scale.

So wind speed of larger waves should be greater than 30 meters.SH5 able to do that?:06:

[rosentorf]

@JScones
I know Das Boot does not show a "real strom" but look at this one if you not already know it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfEo6E6nElE&feature=related

IMO these qualifiy to create a Das Boot-like situation as in this vid the ship is much larger than a u-boat. Of course I won't expect Leutnant Werner to magically appear next to me on the bridge screaming at the sea. :haha: And it does not need to look exactly the same.

When seeing this and other vids I realise that huge waves must affect hydrophone at periscope depth right? I think this is not modelled in SH4 or is it?

[rosentorf]

AAAANNND....it should be modeled that you have to navigate accordingly to the waves...If waves are to strong you can be damaged,injured or tipped over by the waves if you go parallel. I am not a first hand mariner but I would assume this. But maybe this does not apply for u-boats.

@W_clear:
Hey there...I really like your stuff that you have made for SH4. Thanks for that. I just hope that in SH5 they not only allow higher amplitudes but also longer wavelength to the water surface. Like an additional pattern to the "small" wavepattern we already have in SH4 that will be added. And this one must be of an much larger area than the small patch of waves that exists in SH4 or it will never work.

[kiwi_2005]

Yes very large waves - big huge rolling waves :rock:

[Sailor Steve]

I also want to see vessel behavior in sheltered waters modeled correctly. I live near a port city, and the only vessels that bob in sheltered waters are tiny personal watercraft. Even small ships should stand still.
This has been one of my major complaints for a long time. The very word "harbor" means shelter or protection, even when not in a naval context: "They harbored the fugitives". Likewise "haven". They make harbors specifically so there won't be any waves.

AAAANNND....it should be modeled that you have to navigate accordingly to the waves...If waves are to strong you can be damaged,injured or tipped over by the waves if you go parallel. I am not a first hand mariner but I would assume this. But maybe this does not apply for u-boats.
This is true. Running parallel to the waves causes the ship to roll - possibly even roll over. In a really bad storm a whole convoy would turn into the wind (and waves) and use just enough power to keep themselves stationary in that direction. This practice is called "heaving to". Into the wind is always safest.

And a surfaced u-boat would also do the same, for the same reasons. Rolling over might not sink a u-boat, but it would certainly cause anything not tied down to come loose, and maybe even some heavy things that are bolted down - like engines. Certainly the bridge crew wouldn't enjoy the experience very much.

[java`s revenge]

Here look at my post,

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=157243

[Hitman]

This is true. Running parallel to the waves causes the ship to roll - possibly even roll over. In a really bad storm a whole convoy would turn into the wind (and waves) and use just enough power to keep themselves stationary in that direction. This practice is called "heaving to". Into the wind is always safest.


And also it isn't very recommendable to show your stern to the incoming huge waves, at least not in a sailing ship! :o You have a large tendency to lose control of the ship when a big wave is pushing behind your a**s and the bow has an enormous tendency to dive under the water, even if you are not on a submarine!

Bow against the wind/sea is the safest practice :up:

[rosentorf]

Imagine if that was possible to model, it would add a whole new dimension to convoy attacks. You'd have to tack/beat/run the course you actually want to go to intercept (Can I use these terms like this? I meant zig-zagging in case the mean course you want to go is perpendicular to the wind/parallel to the waves).

This would make you much slower and you had to really spend a lot of time on the bridge navigating - or an autopilot like your Navigator :O:

[tonschk]

You want to have larger waves ?

We can be adjusted larger waves at SH4,But the game gave us the biggest wind velocity is -15 m,you can see the Beaufort scale:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaufort_scale.

So wind speed of larger waves should be greater than 30 meters.SH5 able to do that?:06:


:yeah: thank you W_Clear for your very good mods in SH4 :yeah:



.

[kapitan_zur_see]

I couldn't agree more, this should be one of the top priorities (just below wolfpacks :O:).

I second that very much!!! It is to me of top priorities as it does very much for the immersion factor

[Sailor Steve]

And also it isn't very recommendable to show your stern to the incoming huge waves, at least not in a sailing ship! :o You have a large tendency to lose control of the ship when a big wave is pushing behind your a**s and the bow has an enormous tendency to dive under the water, even if you are not on a submarine!

Bow against the wind/sea is the safest practice :up:
Yes, the dreaded 'following sea'. Part of the control loss is due to the fact that the sea pushing against the stern negates the rudder, which needs water moving over it to function.

Imagine if that was possible to model, it would add a whole new dimension to convoy attacks. You'd have to tack/beat/run the course you actually want to go to intercept (Can I use these terms like this? I meant zig-zagging in case the mean course you want to go is perpendicular to the wind/parallel to the waves).

This would make you much slower and you had to really spend a lot of time on the bridge navigating - or an autopilot like your Navigator :O:
I never thought of that! It would also make convoys harder to intercept if they were changing course to keep the wind ahead of them.

[IanC]

Silent Hunter 1 had slower top speeds in bad weather. They omitted this feature in SH3 :nope:
Hope it comes back for SH5.

[rosentorf]

I never thought of that! It would also make convoys harder to intercept if they were changing course to keep the wind ahead of them.

Oh now I want that even more than wolfpacks!! :yep:

[rosentorf]

What have I done!! :timeout:

OF COURSE I WANT WOLFPACKS!!!

I don't know what I'm saying... :nope:

[Hitman]

Silent Hunter 1 had slower top speeds in bad weather. They omitted this feature in SH3 :nope:What? I thought that big waves actually slow down your boat in SH3/4. Are your sure or did you mean something different? :hmmm:

On a side note, I have readed already several accounts explaining how Uboats were able to escape on surface from escorts -even destroyers- by racing ahead flank against the sea. Apparently the thin frontal section of the uboat (Which in fact is not a hull, but a hull-shaped fairing around the steel cylinder of the pressure hull) allows them to run faster against the sea than normal warships, hence they might actually be faster on those conditions than a ship which would normally be faster than them in fair weather. Also, I suspect that running paralell to the sea would be way more dangerous for a destroyer (higher center of gravity) than for an uboat, whose center of gravity is below the waterline. In those conditions, the DD would probably be chicken first and turn away, leaving the pursuit :O:

[Webster]

What? I thought that big waves actually slow down your boat in SH3/4. Are your sure or did you mean something different? :hmmm:


i think it just raised your fuel use but i dont recall any noticable reduced speed at all

[Uber Gruber]

An SH player will spend more time looking at the sea and weather than anything else, either from the bridge or through the optics. Consequently, it is essential that dynamic weather and decent sea state behaviour is modeled. Quite why this was not done in SH3 and SH4 is beyond me.

And I very much doubt it will be done in SH5 either. The SH series is a 'game' series, not a 'simulation' series....which is unfortunate and, well, amaturish. But I don't blame the devs. We live in the 'greed' world now-a-days and UBI is just another greed monkey.

I wish someone like Oleg Maddox would do a sub sim.....sure it'll take about 6 years but i'd be more than happy to wait for the end result. God I miss the days of writing streams of code in a garage.....the quality was a million times better than the mindless crap that props up the shelves in the local game store. Even my 8 year old has given up buying games, he likens them to scratch cards, they look promising but once you scratch the surface you end up with crap under your nails and nothing underneath.

Oh well....monopoly anyone ?

[Reece]

I wish someone like Oleg Maddox would do a sub sim.....sure it'll take about 6 yearsAnd some ... I will have to see SOW to believe it!!:o
You are right Uber Gruber, with the external view is very important to me, for example:
The sea:
Wave textures (effected by wind), rolling, white caps etc.
Coloring - greens & blues, muddy, debris, seaweed etc
density below the surface
Fish and plants
The sky:
Clouds differing with the weather & speed depending on wind
Coloring depending on clouds & time of day
Wind, hopefully this effects the ships smoke as well.
Sun, size effected by position and horizon as well as coloring, bloom etc.
Stars
Lightning
And why not toss in the Northern lights!!:o
Well many other variables but all critical in the immersion factor!!:yep:

[THE_MASK]

Quote "On September 18, 1943, U-537, commanded by Kapitänleutnant Peter Schrewe, departed from kiel, Germany on her first combat patrol. It carried WFL-26, codenamed "Kurt", a meteorologist, Dr Kurt Sommermeyer, and his assistant, Walter Hildebrant . En-route, the U-boat was caught in a storm and a large breaker produced significant damage, this included leaks in the hull and the submarine's quadruple anti aircraft canon being ripped off, leaving it defenseless on the surface against Allied aircraft. "

[Sailor Steve]

Interesting quote. Where's it from?

On the subject of weather slowing down the boat, many times while playing SH1 I noticed that my top speed was slower but couldn't figure out why. Then one day I noticed the weather, which wasn't very well represented graphically. After that I started checking the reports first.

I've never noticed this in SH3, and still haven't played SH4 enough.

[kptn_kaiserhof]

why worry about big waves its a u boat sim

not a surfboard sim

[Task Force]

Very large waves YES!

I would also like the ablility for large waves to cause damage to your boat over a period of time... And the ability to have crew go overboard...

AND I want that stupid weather bug squashed! lol

[rosentorf]

why worry about big waves its a u boat sim

not a surfboard sim

Not only big but also affecting your boats behavior in the water. Therefore affecting your immediate navigation and therefore making intercepts in storms a whole new experience. :up:
Sometimes you won't be able to go for the course you wanted to because the waves might tip your boat or flush some sailors from your boat.

[kptn_kaiserhof]

winge winge its not the local surf club:rotfl2::rotfl2:

[Sailor Steve]

Ah, but as you said, it's a u-boat sim. This means simulating all the parameters of submarine operations, including the look, feel and effect of weather extremes. Without those it cease to be a sim at all and becomes just another game.

[Turbografx]

I sincerely hope that all of these suggestions: wave height, effect on speed, location based wave patterns etc. can be modeled but I think the chances are extremely low. The more I review the released information, screenshots and the past games in the series, I am convinced there is always a trend towards more impressive eyecandy and improvements on the game aspect but hardly any improvement in simulation, mechanics and realism.

Basically, its always better to keep you expectations low and be surprised than have high hopes and be disappointed. I just hope they make it much more moddable.

[Philipp_Thomsen]

The reason I want extreme waves is to see how the ships would react against them, like those videos in youtube of big oilers going thru a storm, its awesome.

But not to see the uboat behaving in those conditions, cos honestly, it can't take it, it will have to submerge.

If the sailing behavior and physics are the same as SH3, SH4, then we won't see extreme waves, cos every ship will sink.

They just have to come up with new stuff, new physics.

[JScones]

Ah, but as you said, it's a u-boat sim. This means simulating all the parameters of submarine operations, including the look, feel and effect of weather extremes. Without those it cease to be a sim at all and becomes just another game.
And soup, don't forget the bl##dy soup. :roll:

Certainly IMHO modelling physics are more important than walking up and down a boat or telling Fritz to get his soup out of your face.

[THE_MASK]

I modded larger waves in SH3 , but the problem was the smaller craft would catch on fire and explode .

[TwistedFemur]

Ya mean somthing like this?
http://www.ifremer.fr/metocean/images/rogue-wave2.jpg

[makman94]

to create big waves (even bigger than the one is showing at TwistedFemur's pic) is pretty easy . the problem is exactly what Phillip says....ships and subs has limited physics ( till...NO physics at all )!you will see the sub flying in the air when surfaced (a lot of meters above the water) and the same goes for ships ...which will sunk immediatelly

to Ubi and to those who are keeping to insist calling this game a simulator : sh3 is NOT at all a simulator with any meaning.if you exept the manual targeting system ...nothing else is trully simulated in the game....no physics at ships,subs...no physics at waves....no thermal layers....no real GOOD WORKING sensors...no simulated hydro sounds ....no real weather ....no earth (meaning the real shape of earth) .this doesn't mean that sh3 is a bad game ...not at all ! BUT it is a game and certainly NOT a simulator

@Phillip : this NTPRO 5000 you pointed is simply amazing(not for
its water.it is very very good ,needs some additional work...still showing...'fake' .NTPRO is amazing for all the others features it has) !! but what exactly it is? i didn't figure out...is it a 'game' ?

[sav112]

Why cant they do the Waves right? No excuse in my view. Have the developers been locked away or have they not played something like forza-motorsport-3 with the cars having the right weight, power, grip weather conditions etc. that’s more or less expected these days that the physics is right on the money or have we jumped back to the early 90’s

I did not buy SH4 but did enjoy my SH3 that had some of the Mod’s on. I almost felt embarrassed for the developers as to what the modding community could do. Harbours had life, weather systems, torpedo wakes, better dials, better smoke and explosions, debris in the water after a sinking. All this added so much to the game you thought if these guys can do it why can’t the developers.


Its time for the developers to grow up, ships ramming each other or having not the slightest intelligence is a pure embarrassment. This is not the 90’s the Subs should feel right in the water and the sea state should be spot on and its effects in the new game and I hope they are. If not they should get developers in that can.


Not having a go at the Team working on SH5 but SH3 was so poor at times but still a good game, but they lost my sale on SH4 plain and simple with some of the bugs and lets face it rather poor programming.

[Webster]

I modded larger waves in SH3 , but the problem was the smaller craft would catch on fire and explode .

i remember you talking about that, wasnt it because ships wouldnt "ride" the waves and move up and down with them but instead the waves would go over the ships or something like that?

[Philipp_Thomsen]

to create big waves (even bigger than the one is showing at TwistedFemur's pic) is pretty easy . the problem is exactly what Phillip says....ships and subs has limited physics ( till...NO physics at all )!you will see the sub flying in the air when surfaced (a lot of meters above the water) and the same goes for ships ...which will sunk immediatelly

to Ubi and to those who are keeping to insist calling this game a simulator : sh3 is NOT at all a simulator with any meaning.if you exept the manual targeting system ...nothing else is trully simulated in the game....no physics at ships,subs...no physics at waves....no thermal layers....no real GOOD WORKING sensors...no simulated hydro sounds ....no real weather ....no earth (meaning the real shape of earth) .this doesn't mean that sh3 is a bad game ...not at all ! BUT it is a game and certainly NOT a simulator

@Phillip : this NTPRO 5000 you pointed is simply amazing(not for
its water.it is very very good ,needs some additional work...still showing...'fake' .NTPRO is amazing for all the others features it has) !! but what exactly it is? i didn't figure out...is it a 'game' ?

While I was reading your post, I had an epiphany. Maybe its possible to mod huge waves in SH3 by reducing the sea speed parameters in 15m/s waves down to a very very slow sea. That way, the slow gravity physics on the vessels could have the time enough to follow the waterline up and down accordinly. I may try that later, just for curiosity. I was watching some videos, the sea is actually VERY slow when the waves are big. Cos the actual problem with SH3 when you try to build a big storm's waves, is that the physics are slow, the sea is fast, the waves go up and down twice before the vessel can go up and down for the first time. So, when the vessel is going down, the sea is already going up again, resulting in a tanker diving at periscope depth. When the vessel starts to respond by going up, the sea is already going down, and so it will float in the air for some seconds, until the lunar gravity pulls it back down. The problem here is sea speed, and it can be done.

And related to NTPRO 5000, I think its basically a very decent simulator, maybe only used for training personal, not for the home user. But still, very awesome.

[Decoman]

For the purpose of keeping some sense of being in a realistic situation, perhaps the easiest way would be to program the crew to forcefully submerge the submarine, if the water is too rough. Thus avoiding any simulated and/or complicated gamemechanics.

[THE_MASK]

While I was reading your post, I had an epiphany. Maybe its possible to mod huge waves in SH3 by reducing the sea speed parameters in 15m/s waves down to a very very slow sea. That way, the slow gravity physics on the vessels could have the time enough to follow the waterline up and down accordinly. I may try that later, just for curiosity. I was watching some videos, the sea is actually VERY slow when the waves are big. Cos the actual problem with SH3 when you try to build a big storm's waves, is that the physics are slow, the sea is fast, the waves go up and down twice before the vessel can go up and down for the first time. So, when the vessel is going down, the sea is already going up again, resulting in a tanker diving at periscope depth. When the vessel starts to respond by going up, the sea is already going down, and so it will float in the air for some seconds, until the lunar gravity pulls it back down. The problem here is sea speed, and it can be done.

And related to NTPRO 5000, I think its basically a very decent simulator, maybe only used for training personal, not for the home user. But still, very awesome.
Maybe a state machine thing .

[makman94]

While I was reading your post, I had an epiphany. Maybe its possible to mod huge waves in SH3 by reducing the sea speed parameters in 15m/s waves down to a very very slow sea. That way, the slow gravity physics on the vessels could have the time enough to follow the waterline up and down accordinly. I may try that later, just for curiosity. I was watching some videos, the sea is actually VERY slow when the waves are big. Cos the actual problem with SH3 when you try to build a big storm's waves, is that the physics are slow, the sea is fast, the waves go up and down twice before the vessel can go up and down for the first time. So, when the vessel is going down, the sea is already going up again, resulting in a tanker diving at periscope depth. When the vessel starts to respond by going up, the sea is already going down, and so it will float in the air for some seconds, until the lunar gravity pulls it back down. The problem here is sea speed, and it can be done.

And related to NTPRO 5000, I think its basically a very decent simulator, maybe only used for training personal, not for the home user. But still, very awesome.

i have tried that in the past Phillip ! i had made a dozen (or ...two dozens :DL) of different waves and slow them down also . didn't work becuase while you move against the waves ,when the sub(or ship) is at the uper 'nose' of the wave, it was suddenly in the air. i havilly reduced also the choppywave to avoid that phenomeno but my results(according to my knowledge e) was that if you want to make it work you have to set the sea speed extremelly slow ! it was something like looking a film in a very very slow motion mode .....and the immersion of all that was not acceptable at all !
i hope to understand my...english
and i wish you good luck to your efforts on this . if you manage to make it work it will be really an evolutionary mod :up:

[Webster]

heres my crazy idea with no clue if it will work but i think it would need to be based on one single floatation sphere at bow and one at stern with none in the middle so the bow and stern stay attatched to the water as it were to follow the waves.

but this means sinking a ship by flooding is out and ships sink only from damage because the floatation pheres would have to be unfloodable or one being flooded would stand the ship on end

[makman94]

heres my crazy idea with no clue if it will work but i think it would need to be based on one single floatation sphere at bow and one at stern with none in the middle so the bow and stern stay attatched to the water as it were to follow the waves.

but this means sinking a ship by flooding is out and ships sink only from damage because the floatation pheres would have to be unfloodable or one being flooded would stand the ship on end

as i don't have any idea at all about floatation spheres i can't say anything on that Webster.BUT someone that is familiar with these moding areas can give it a try !if sh3's engine 'accepts' only two floatation spheres for each ship then your idea doesn't seem so 'crazy' to me at all !!

[Philipp_Thomsen]

heres my crazy idea with no clue if it will work but i think it would need to be based on one single floatation sphere at bow and one at stern with none in the middle so the bow and stern stay attatched to the water as it were to follow the waves.

but this means sinking a ship by flooding is out and ships sink only from damage because the floatation pheres would have to be unfloodable or one being flooded would stand the ship on end

Wouldn't work. The uboat would be underwater for most of the waves.

What I was thinking was... what about increasing the mass of the uboat? It should respond faster to gravity, no?

[Webster]

What I was thinking was... what about increasing the mass of the uboat? It should respond faster to gravity, no?

well as we found out in the manuvering tests increasing mass throws off all the other things like speed, stopping, starting, turning, and manuvering so i think you change for the worse much more than anything might get better for true floatation animation

not to mention more mass will make it less likely to react to any external force and act like a rock

[THE_MASK]

Lets hope it will be all fixed in SH5 .