Can't Dive Deep enough!

[slupanter]

ASDIC is only usable above 300m so uboats would dive to 300m and long as the hull was good nic plus other boats upset ASDIC and warm water, cold water, fish, whales, sediment and the sea floor. But the glass and lose valves would pop and have to be tightened. plus DC only needs to be with in 40 - 50m and good night to your pressure hull unless your in shallows.
In GWX 3.1 or SH5 the depths need to be deeper for later subs

sorry upset got caught by Flower

[GoldenRivet]

the depth capabilities of the U-boats in GWX are set to historical values.

SH3 Commander adjusts these values to a more randomized extent.

In reality, if a U-boat made 300 meters or deeper it was near the end for that crew anyhow.

[U-48Kriegsmarine]

Believe U Me, if the real u-boaters could go to 300m, more than 25% of them would have come back, but they didn't! U-boats can't just dive to 300m to get below ASDIC, its just not possible, and I believe the game reflects this accurately.

Again, the casualty statistics show, If they could they would have, but they didn't because they can't.

Nice info though about the Whales, water and all that, I would love for a whale to just swim into the ping of a destroyer and save my skin!

:yeah:

[Philipp_Thomsen]

The only true way to find out what can a non-damaged hull take, is actually doing it. But I don't think german skippers would just dive to 300m just to be sure it can take. It doesnt mean it can't. The only reports we have, are those from uboats that had flooding and went near 300m until they managed to start going up again.

I do believe that uboats with a inctact and perfect hull can reach 300m, yes. Just there's no how to prove it.

[GoldenRivet]

The only true way to find out what can a non-damaged hull take, is actually doing it. But I don't think german skippers would just dive to 300m just to be sure it can take. It doesnt mean it can't. The only reports we have, are those from uboats that had flooding and went near 300m until they managed to start going up again.

I do believe that uboats with a inctact and perfect hull can reach 300m, yes. Just there's no how to prove it.

Correct.

and the guage stops at 250M

beyond that you are testing the unknown.

besides... i dont even think subs could really measure any depth below 250m

i mean you got to hand it to those Germans... we are talking about a U-boat design from the mid 1930's capable of diving to near 900 ft

i mean compare that to the US Subs... their "test depth" was nearly twice as much as the US Sub's test depths across the board.

[Philipp_Thomsen]

Correct.

and the guage stops at 250M

beyond that you are testing the unknown.

besides... i dont even think subs could really measure any depth below 250m

i mean you got to hand it to those Germans... we are talking about a U-boat design from the mid 1930's capable of diving to near 900 ft

i mean compare that to the US Subs... their "test depth" was nearly twice as much as the US Sub's test depths across the board.

With today's technology, subs should be going 1000m deep at 50kts no problem. Somehow they don't... but I believe that there must be an explanation for it... maybe the lack of necessity to go that deep?

[tomfon]

The only true way to find out what can a non-damaged hull take, is actually doing it. But I don't think german skippers would just dive to 300m just to be sure it can take. It doesnt mean it can't. The only reports we have, are those from uboats that had flooding and went near 300m until they managed to start going up again.

I do believe that uboats with a inctact and perfect hull can reach 300m, yes. Just there's no how to prove it.

Heh, good point.:)

[slupanter]

Type XXI could drive deep but it still doesnt sort out the warm and cold water and whales lol. type VII would be crushed over about 179FT but type XXI could just take it i never said it wouldn't be damaged I.E glass and joints. but in the type IXC - C2 they changed the pressure hull from steel to armour plate increase the displacement to about 1000.

[slupanter]

http://www.uboataces.com/uboat-type-xxi.shtml


Crushing depht 919ft (280m) ASDIC could see you at this depht at 2knots, warm and cool bands would mask the boat even at 200m. if you were singing, clanging and ahead full then your asking for trouble even maybe 280m

[Pohl]

I once took a Type XXI to 270m but she started taking damage.....for a proof here's a picture

http://i626.photobucket.com/albums/tt348/arleccin/b7941d9c.jpg

[slupanter]

yeah sh3 is wrong about the type XXI at 15 knot is quieter than a us sub (cant remember which one Bal something). it not as good in the game as it was in the war

[Sailor Steve]

Type XXI technology looked good on paper, but they suffered many problems since they were the first of their kind.

But since no Type XXIs were involved in combat, it's not really relevant.

[psykopatsak]

if it was made more realistic, you would have to rush to get to an enemy ship before the war ended :P

[Ducimus]

Reality and popular belief often differ.

Uboats, did not dive at or below 300 meters, at least, not on purpose, and definatly not with any regularity. I doubt you'll find more then one or two accounts of a uboat having gone to 300 meters deep or more and lived to tell about it. Furthermore, the stress undergone by the pressurehull at that depth by any submarine of the day, would have caused fatigue on the hull to such a degree, that retirement of the boat might be a consideration. At the least, the strength of the hull in future dives would have been drastically compromised, making the crush depth of the boat progressively shallower as the pressure hull became more and more fatigued.

The type 21 Uboat, wasn't all that and a bag of chips. Firstly, many of the internal lines and piping (such as hydrolic systems) were external to the pressure hull, making repairs by the crew virtually impossible. Secondly, you have to look at the hulls themselves. Made in sections at various yards, under the hammer of allied bombing. There are accounts of the various sections not fitting together correctly at the time of assembly. In otherwords, the hulls lacked quality due to the frantic/desperate situation in nazi germany's late war construction.

[Platapus]

Type XXI technology looked good on paper, but they suffered many problems since they were the first of their kind.

But since no Type XXIs were involved in combat, it's not really relevant.

I guess it would depend on what you mean by "involved in combat"

The U2511 made one war patrol but did not sink any ships. But it did sneak up on a British Cruiser without being detected (Pretty interesting story)
The U3008 kinda sorta made a tiny patrol but went back into port before the cook had a chance to ask the Kaluen about the soup :)

Now if "involved in combat" means being attacked by the enemy, then you are most correct. By the time the Type XXI came about, the war was over (Literally in the case of the U-3008)

[Platapus]

I think that given enough time, the Type XXI mod 2 could have been a great submarine, but as built, the Type XXI had some serious flaws.

I reference Clay Blair’s 1996 book “Hitler’s U-Boats” in two volumes.

Specifically I would like to quote from the Forward of the book where Mr. Blair discusses the United States’ evaluation of the U-2513 Type XXI Uboat. While 118 of the Type XXI boats were constructed, I believe only two (U2511 and U3008) had combat patrols.

From the Blair book

In the classified report [the American evaluators] sent to the Chief of Naval Operations, dated July 1946, they wrote that while the Type XXI had many desirable features that should be exploited, it also had many grave design and manufacturing faults. The clear implication was that owning to these faults, the XXI could not have made a big difference in the Battle of the Atlantic. Among the major faults the Americans enumerated:

Poor Structural Integrity.

Hurriedly prefabricated in thirty-two different factories that had little or no experience in submarine building, the eight major hull sections of the type XXi were crudely made and did not fit together properly. Therefore the pressure hull was weak and not capable of withstanding sea pressure at great depths or the explosions of close depth charges. The Germans reported that in their structural tests, the hull failed at a simulated depth of 900 feet. The British reported failure at 800 feet, less than the failure depth of the conventional German U-Boats.

Underpowered Diesel Engines

The new model, six-cylinder diesels were fitted with superchargers to generate the required horsepower. The system was so poorly designed and manufactured that the superchargers could not be used. This failure reduced the generated horsepower by almost half: From 2,000 to 1,200, leaving the Type XII ruinously underpowered. Consequently, the maximum surface speed was only 15.6 knots, less than any ocean going U-boat built during the war and slightly slower than the corvette convoy-escort vessel. The reduction in horsepower also substantially increased the time required to carry out a full battery charge.

Impractical Hydraulic System

The main lines, accumulators, cylinders, and pistons of the hydraulic gear or operating the diving planes, rudders, torpedo tube outer doors, and antiaircraft gun turrets on the bridge were too complex and delicate and located outside the pressure hull. This gear was therefore subject to saltwater leakage, corrosion, and enemy weaponry. It could not be repaired from inside the pressure hull.

Imperfect and Hazardous Snorkel

Even in moderate seas, the mast dunked often, automatically closing the air intake and exhaust ports. Even so, salt water poured into the ship’s bilges and had to be discharged overboard continuously with noisy pumps. More over, during these shutdowns, the diesels dangerously sucked air from inside the boat and deadly exhaust gas backed up, causing not only headaches and eye discomfort, but also serious respiratory illnesses. Snorkeling in the Type XXI was therefore a nightmarish experience to be minimized to the greatest extent possible.

So on paper the Type XXI should have been the best submarine of the time. If the Germans had the proper manufacturing capability the problems with the pressure hull and the diesel engines could have been fixed. The design of the hydraulic system being outside of the pressure hull is, in my opinion, a bad idea, just for the reasons listed in the Blair book.

Did the Type XXI have a reputation that was greater than the reality?

In the 1995 book “Count not the dead: The popular image of the German Submarine” Michael L. Hadley wrote “During both wars and during the inter-war years as well, the U-boat was mythologized more than any other weapon of war.”

Perhaps the greatest capability of the Type XXI was the myth of the Type XXI.

Since only two of them were used in combat (if memory serves me correctly) we will never know how effective the Type XXI would have truly been.

I have never played a Type XXI in SH3 so I don't know if it is modeled after how it really was or how it could have been?

[slupanter]

fair point with only 2 going to war but never fired in anger the type XXI is all speculation, but if theres one thing we can agree on is that the type XXI is the forfather of the moden sub.