HOTAS in a subsim

[Donkey-Shot]

I'd like to be able to use a HOTAS (hands on throttle and stick) in SH5.
Sounds nuts? Probably, but not realy if you think about it.

Both saitek and logitech are coming up with a HOTAS system with dual throttle. Imagine what we can use those babies for? Independent engine control!!
I've seen an clip if the logitec throttles used in ship simulator 2008. It showed how easy it was to turn a ship with one engine forward and the other reversed.

I dont know about the saitek one, but with the logitech one: you can set the center of the throttle at 50%. What this means is: center the throttle means all stop, pull the throttle back and you're reversing, push it forward and,well, you go forward. Now, when would this sort of thing come in handy? :hmmm:

While we're at it: TrackIR support. I mean, it's going to be an FPS like enviroment right? Why not make the next logical step?

BTW, i'll try and look up the link to that clip and post it here.

[Platapus]

What good would a HOTAS system be for a game where most of the time you are spent patrolling a grid at TC waiting for stuff to kill? :)

[rik007]

Go play IL-2!

[Takeda Shingen]

Go play IL-2!

No reason to be nasty.

Truthfully, I don't really see joystick control as applicable here. The captain himself does not control the engines, dive planes, tank valves, et al. Rather, he gives the order, and it is followed.

[Hitman]

Well may be Rik007 has never sailed on a boat, or may be yes, but I spent quite a few hours in my youth sailing around the Mediterranean coast of Spain, and one thing I dearly miss in all naval simulators I have had so far is the feel of a true rudder i my hands, the forces of water against it, the turbulence when steering to fast, and such. I have been many times on the bridge in the submarine in SH1-5 and when looking at the bow low against the water walls I knew I felt so sad not to have direct rudder control. Yes, I accept the limitations of this simulation, other things come first, the commander did never man the rudder personally, and finally the ruder worked different to a normal ship -with push levers and not a real wheel- but still....I miss it :up:

[martes86]

TrackIR, why not?
Joystick, definitely not.
If you want realistic controls, go get 2 engine telegraphs, 2 dive planes control rudders, a steering rudder control, 2 depth meters, 2 dive planes meters... I'd definitely enjoy taking all that and showing it at Campus Party Valencia (where I went in 2006, 2007, and 2009, always the last week of july), where flightsimmers take even whole IL2 cocpicts. :o

THAT would be cool, to be able to have all sorts of tangible controls instead of getting it all in the screen. And combining that with multi-station multiplayer, that would make it possible that we could build our own real-scale control room and have all output/input shown there. But since there's no such thing for subsims (not that I wouldn't love to have it), having anything else would just make it tremendously irealistic. Only TrackIR seems to be a fairly logical choice.

Cheers

[Ilpalazzo]

I'm trying to picture myself using my x52 hotas in silent hunter. I'm drawing a blank. I see absoluetely no use for it.

If you want a more 'hands on' gameplay you should try playing with voice recognition. I tried that. It was awesome when it worked right. Sometimes though, it didn't work right. Maybe I'd say 'ahead standard' and then the game would say 'firing torpedo!'. Or 'stop' - 'crash dive'. Yea that was annoying after the umpteenth time. I've since gotten a better mic though, so maybe I should give it another try.

THAT would be cool, to be able to have all sorts of tangible controls instead of getting it all in the screen. And combining that with multi-station multiplayer, that would make it possible that we could build our own real-scale control room and have all output/input shown there. But since there's no such thing for subsims (not that I wouldn't love to have it), having anything else would just make it tremendously irealistic. Only TrackIR seems to be a fairly logical choice.


heh that would be fantastic. On a related note. I would love to see the hilarity ensue in a silent hunter multiplayer mode where each player plays their own major role on the same sub. There be one frustrated captain!

[goldorak]

Why is using a HOTAS more stupid than using a keyboard ? :shifty:
Unless you have a replica of a WWII submarine control room, any controller you'll use on a pc is good.
None will give you the immersion of a real life sub control room though.
So a HOTAS can be as good as a crummy old keyboard + mouse.

So to the OP that wants to use a HOTAS : go ahead, just program it so that all relevant controls are mapped to the different keys on the controller and you're good to go. :shucks:

[Hartmann]

why not ?? :hmmm: it´s not vital like in a flight sim but could be useful and interesting for some people. at least as a option.

you can have two important controls in the joystick, rudder and dive planes, and buttons for specific orders , crash dive, silent running , blow ballast...

[Ilpalazzo]

So to the OP that wants to use a HOTAS : go ahead, just program it so that all relevant controls are mapped to the different keys on the controller and you're good to go. :shucks:

True. Nothing stopping anybody from simply making a profile for whatever game.

[GoldenRivet]

Trak IR would be nice... HOTAS, i dont see much point- because as the commander you are not really directly manipulating controls.

[rik007]

Well may be Rik007 has never sailed on a boat, or may be yes, but I spent quite a few hours in my youth sailing around the Mediterranean coast of Spain, and one thing I dearly miss in all naval simulators I have had so far is the feel of a true rudder i my hands, the forces of water against it, the turbulence when steering to fast, and such. I have been many times on the bridge in the submarine in SH1-5 and when looking at the bow low against the water walls I knew I felt so sad not to have direct rudder control. Yes, I accept the limitations of this simulation, other things come first, the commander did never man the rudder personally, and finally the ruder worked different to a normal ship -with push levers and not a real wheel- but still....I miss it :up:

As a Dutch guy I did sail ships but I do not see the connection with sailing U-boats. There is no wooden steering wheel on the bridge there. Everything is controlled with rudders, water and air. For sailing an U-boat you should be an engineer rather than a sailor. There is no force feedback needed on these rudders as it is all indirect and 'commandable' instead of manual controllable. Voicecommand should be on top of your list not force feedback, hotas etc. The Bucharest studio should not waiste time on building hotas. Please implement Wolfpacks instead.

[Hitman]

THAT would be cool, to be able to have all sorts of tangible controls instead of getting it all in the screen

Imagine this being programable in SH5:

http://www.chproducts.com/retail/t_tq_quad.html

:o That would be amazing...separate engine control, dive planes inclination bow % stern, trim, you name it :|\\

Not going to happen, and yes wolfpacks should be first :yep:

[Donkey-Shot]

It's true: there is no wooden steering weel etc on a U-boot. But then again neither is there a keyboard and a mouse. I mean how realistic is that?

"Kaleun, please what are your orders?" Kaleun: "hang on, hang-on! I'm typing them in as we speak. Now where's the damm keycard?!"

A HOTAS, keyboard, mouse and what have you are just means of controlling the game (yes, however realistic, it's still a game). To me HOTAS is a very convenient means of controlling just about any game: because of the huge progammabilty of these things. I actualy have a profile for SH3 for my X52 Pro.

How's this for realism, on my x52 pro I have six toggle switches wich you can toggle up/down. I use one for the attack scope, one for the OBS. Push the switch up, the scope goes and vica versa.

I find it very convenient to have all controls under my finger tips and not have to go over the keyboard. Wich for me is extra important given that I have arthritis in both hands (and nearly every other joint in my body).

Besides that, what realy got me to thinking this might be a good idea is that there's a bunch of HOTAS sets comming out with dual throttles. Wich you can use for dual telegraphs. How many post are there on this site, saying how great it would be to have individual control over the engines? I haven't counted them, but willing to bet there's more than one.

All the dev's gotta do is make SH5 recognize axis. you the player got to do the programming on the HOTAS of your choice, if you choose to use it in the first place.

Track IR makes even more sense to me. Imagine looking around in the control room, leaning over the read gauges. Imagine you're on deck behing the gun, leaning to the side to spot the target, then lean back to look into the gun scope. Imagine sitting behind the attack scope and lean forward to look into it, lean back and to the side so you can see your gauges, the tdc dials in the tower, any crew member there to wich you can give orders.

Lets say you're on the conning tower, a plane attacks or you're attacking a merchent but it shoots back with machine gun/AA fire and you duck down behind the tower's railing.

I don't want to offend anybody, but: not being able to see any use for a HOTAS (or other controller devices) and/or Track IR, seems to me a lack of imagination. And aren't good subcommanders, or any leaders for that matter, supposed to be able to think creativly and (way) out of the box?

We all have our -personal- preferences. You don't like the idea of using any of these things? Fair enough, who says you have to? But I could defenitly see a, very practical, use for them.

[Sailor Steve]

I think part of the aversion to such a system is the point made that the captain of a ship really doesn't do anything except be the captain. Many people complained that they couldn't control the dive planes in SH2, and when they were given that control multiplay went all to pieces. The subs were swooping up to periscope depth with a precision only found in aircraft, firing their torpedoes and diving again before the escorts even knew what was happening.

No, captains didn't have keyboards either, but the keyboard doesn't let you control the sub - only give orders. My objection wouldn't be to the manner of control, but to having too much control in and of itself.

[GoldenRivet]

"Kaleun, please what are your orders?" Kaleun: "hang on, hang-on! I'm typing them in as we speak. Now where's the damm keycard?!"

For Starters... you dont type in your orders. It is generally as easy as clicking a single icon or pressing a single key.

With HOTAS you are little more than a helmsman steering the boat.

A HOTAS, keyboard, mouse and what have you are just means of controlling the game (yes, however realistic, it's still a game). To me HOTAS is a very convenient means of controlling just about any game: because of the huge progammabilty of these things. I actualy have a profile for SH3 for my X52 Pro.

You are entitled to that opinion... but be aware that probably 98% of Subsim players out there favor the chain of command system involved in giving orders, and seeing them carried out... for the vast majority it is not about driving the boat.

How's this for realism, on my x52 pro I have six toggle switches wich you can toggle up/down. I use one for the attack scope, one for the OBS. Push the switch up, the scope goes and vica versa.

Just as simple... ant takes less desk space to press the default Pageup page down or the insert and delete keys. what it boils down to is whether or not the player wants the tactile sensation of pressing a switch or a button.

Besides that, what realy got me to thinking this might be a good idea is that there's a bunch of HOTAS sets comming out with dual throttles. Wich you can use for dual telegraphs. How many post are there on this site, saying how great it would be to have individual control over the engines? I haven't counted them, but willing to bet there's more than one.

there are hundreds of such posts... however - because many subsim enthusiasts and franchise fans are hardcore realism types or historical accuracy types they favor the idea if "giving an order" instead of running back to the engine room to personally take control of the engine throttle levers located on the after part of the diesels.

All the dev's gotta do is make SH5 recognize axis. you the player got to do the programming on the HOTAS of your choice, if you choose to use it in the first place.

i dont think thats too much to ask... however i think it would turn out to be a feature that something like less than 1% of all players would ever use.

Track IR makes even more sense to me. Imagine looking around in the control room, leaning over the read gauges.

we agree for the most part on TrackIR - i have used it extensively in flight sims... but i must be honest... i viewed it as more or a novelty than a requirment for serious play... the trackIR system is within arms reach if i wish to use it, but after the first month of owning it... it was just not that fun any more. Would be interesting in a subsim i think. however, since SHV is geared toward the first person shooter type of player movements, i think more PC Gamers would be within their element to use the mouse to look around.

not being able to see any use for a HOTAS (or other controller devices) and/or Track IR, seems to me a lack of imagination. And aren't good subcommanders, or any leaders for that matter, supposed to be able to think creativly and (way) out of the box?

a bold statement... i see your point, but i wouldnt have said those words specifically... I think it is important to understand that every Kaleun has a unique approach to the way he likes to manage his boat and crew and tactical situation. "to each his own." are the words you need to try to live by here at subsim.com - if a keyboard and mouse works perfectly fine for 90% of the users here... and it is an arrangment that they are used to - it would be tactically, militarily, and personally foolish to change the arrangement to something unfamiliar to virtually the entire fan base.

If Ubisoft Devs wish to Include HOTAS, or TrackIR... thats great.

but knowing that many of the fans of the series are comfortable with the keyboard and mouse setup i think it would be a little used feature.

[Donkey-Shot]

I think part of the aversion to such a system is the point made that the captain of a ship really doesn't do anything except be the captain. Many people complained that they couldn't control the dive planes in SH2, and when they were given that control multiplay went all to pieces. The subs were swooping up to periscope depth with a precision only found in aircraft, firing their torpedoes and diving again before the escorts even knew what was happening.

No, captains didn't have keyboards either, but the keyboard doesn't let you control the sub - only give orders. My objection wouldn't be to the manner of control, but to having too much control in and of itself.

I understand your point Sailor Steve. But you're asuming that everybody who buys it is a hardcore subsimmer that would pull up his nose at anything that might be considered a cheat or unrealistic. I love high realism, but I'm also a higly pragmatic person. I don't want to waste time pressing long keypress combination or a half dozen mouse clicks to get something done.

My request would simply be this: make SH5 recognize axis.
Besides, you can't program it to something that isn't in the game.
If there is no keyboardcommand to control the dive planes, you can't program any HOTAS axis to control it.

But I see no objection of having the -option- to use it.

[GoldenRivet]

I understand your point Sailor Steve. But you're asuming that everybody who buys it is a hardcore subsimmer that would pull up his nose at anything that might be considered a cheat or unrealistic. I love high realism, but I'm also a higly pragmatic person. I don't want to waste time pressing long keypress combination or a half dozen mouse clicks to get something done.

My request would simply be this: make SH5 recognize axis.
Besides, you can't program it to something that isn't in the game.
If there is no keyboardcommand to control the dive planes, you can't program any HOTAS axis to control it.

But I see no objection of having the -option- to use it.

i think most here would agree with this post.

i also think many here would agree that you... and perhaps half a dozen other people would get any use of it.:yeah:

[Sailor Steve]

i think most here would agree with this post.
As do I. If it's a simple thing to program I'm all for every possible option. If it's difficult then I say things like I did in my previous post.

[Kavok]

It would be great to have [even optional] manual helm controls rigged for this. I have a Saitek X-52 HOTAS for Wing Commander games and would love an excuse to use it in SH:V.

However, it may not be neccessary. All HOTASs (I would imagine all advanced joysticks, like advanced mice) are thoroughly programmable even to the level of haiving the various axes spilttable into ranges to press certain buttons. So you'll always get a minimum applicability even with no support at all.

The X-52 HOTAS (not sure about others) has a thumb-mouse and full controls for that on the throttle too. So in effect proper support would simply be using that mouse and condensing your keyboard controls onto the HOTAS system. Either way, it would be ace to have it.

As Donkeyshot says, the power of X-52 pro and X-52 HOTAS are so good that only a minimum level of game-side support are needed.

Ah, I just noticed the date of the first post.... sorry for the thread necromancy.

[commandosolo2009]

No reason to be nasty.

Truthfully, I don't really see joystick control as applicable here. The captain himself does not control the engines, dive planes, tank valves, et al. Rather, he gives the order, and it is followed.


modern subs are controlled by stick.

Proof:

http://ussnewmexico.net/inside-look/



http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/upload/img_400/control.jpg




http://english.chosun.com/media/photo/news/200802/200802270008_01.jpg

[ETR3(SS)]

The captain still doesn't drive the boat. The new Virginia's are going to a joystick control if I remember right. The rest of the boats in the US have a yoke stick for control surfaces control.

But what you really want is the "Dive and Drive" trainer on every Subase in the US. Those are fun!

[Sailor Steve]

Also, what does a modern helmsman's job have to do with World War 2 subs?

[Los]

Not sure if this will give you the result you are looking for... but it's a program to convert joystick movements into keyboard commands.

Search for joy2key

I use it for my RockBand drums to work with a drum sequencer on my computer. Should work (somewhat limited) for SH5

[longam]

It might be interesting if they came up with a controller for running the sub like the train controllers that are out.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41A0A6VPB4L._SL500_AA280_.jpg

[SabreHawk]

I dont think a HOTAS flihgtsim type controller would be very useful, but a shipsim type like this certainly would.
http://www.shipsim.com/products/ship+control+unit.php

But the sim itself would also have to support it.

[Takeda Shingen]

modern subs are controlled by stick.

Proof:

http://ussnewmexico.net/inside-look/

I know that. Still, any submarine simulator is, ultimately, a command simulator. I know that ETR beat be to it, but to reiterate, the CO does not drive the boat.