Time to upgrade...

[onelifecrisis]

I really wasn't sure where to post this. :-? It's not got anything to do with SH3 Mods, but I figure the mods forum is where the techy types hang out.

Anyway it's time to replace my 5YO rig, but I'm a bit baffled by the new hardware options. Which is better - a standalone HD4850 graphics card, or a HD4550 in hybrid crossfire with a HD3200? Also, how much more powerful is a Phenom II X4 when compared with an Athlon II X4? Help plz. :oops:

[ReallyDedPoet]

Moved it here :)

Have fun with the upgrade. Plan to do the same sometime next year. I
will wait until after SH 5 comes out.

[onelifecrisis]

Oh, duh, I didn't even see this forum here. Thanks RDP!

[ReallyDedPoet]

Oh, duh, I didn't even see this forum here. Thanks RDP!

No problem, have a good one :up:

[AVGWarhawk]

Look at the speeds of the processors. Such as my Phenom X4 9850 are 2.5Ghz in speed. However, I believe that is x4 now as you have 4 processors working for you. I'm not an ATI fan and like Nvidia. Go no lower than a 9800GT in my opinion. Do not be afraid of a 64bit OS. I run it and love 64bit. I run 8 gig of RAM with the 64bit. Question for you, wait for windows 7 or use Vista? I have Vista and it is a good OS in my opinion. I do not have troubles with it at all. Windows 7 will be out shortly so maybe spend the time getting your hardware then purchase when 7 is out.

[onelifecrisis]

7 won't run older games, so I'll be sticking with Vista (which, hopefully, will). If I could have it my way I'd have XP with DX10, but M$ decided to make DX10 Vista only so I guess I'll have to wave goodbye to XP.

[Raptor1]

7 won't run older games, so I'll be sticking with Vista (which, hopefully, will).

Why won't 7 run games which Vista can? AFAIK 7 is nothing but Vista improved.

[AVGWarhawk]

7 won't run older games, so I'll be sticking with Vista (which, hopefully, will).


Not true, 7 will run in XP mode. Vista does not that I'm aware of. However, Vista does play a lot of older games.

[onelifecrisis]

Not true, 7 will run in XP mode. Vista does not that I'm aware of. However, Vista does play a lot of older games.

Are you 100% sure? Can anyone else confirm that? If so, Windows 7 sounds perfect.

[AVGWarhawk]

Microsoft said Thursday it has signed off on Windows 7's add-on capability to provide Windows XP application compatibility and the code will be ready for download when Windows 7 ships later this month.




http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/entdev/article.php/3842036/Windows-7-to-Include-XP-Mode.htm

:salute:

[onelifecrisis]

Thanks AVG.

Having read the article I must say I have my doubts about this XP Mode being able to run older games. Running old windows business apps is one thing, but running games is another. :hmmm:

A techy I spoke to today, who has been testing W7 for months, said that it currently won't run hardly any games that are more than 2 years old. :-?

[onelifecrisis]

A motherboard I'm looking at has these graphics ports:
1 x PCIe x16
1 x PCIe x1

It says the first slot is a "x16" slot and the other is a "x1" slot. My question is, can I run two nVidia cards in SLI mode on a board like that?

[AVGWarhawk]

Get a hold of Dowly. I think he has been running older games on it. I will dig further. Vista does play games over than 2 years. I was playing B-17 by I think Microprose. It played fine for a game like 8 years old.

[AVGWarhawk]

A motherboard I'm looking at has these graphics ports:
1 x PCIe x16
1 x PCIe x1

It says the first slot is a "x16" slot and the other is a "x1" slot. My question is, can I run two nVidia cards in SLI mode on a board like that?

Need a board that is set up for SLI. You will also use the X16 slots.



Think about a duel boot for your system. One for XP and the other hard drive for 7.

[onelifecrisis]

Need a board that is set up for SLI. You will also use the X16 slots.

Okay, how do I know if a board is setup for SLI or not?

[AVGWarhawk]

Okay, how do I know if a board is setup for SLI or not?


The advertisment will say SLI or crossfire. SLI is Nvida boards and Crossfire is ATI boards. :03:

[AVGWarhawk]

Newegg:

http://www.newegg.com/Store/Category.aspx?Category=20&name=Motherboards

[AVGWarhawk]

This is exactly what I have with exception of my video card that is the 9800gt and I did bump it up to 8 gig of RAM. I love the machine. Never worry about a thing concerning having enough power. Plus, it is SLI ready so I can add another vid card if needed.

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4116768&CatId=3512

Not a bad price for this rig at all. All told with shipping I paid $938.00. This was last Christmas.

[onelifecrisis]

Thanks :)

I'm in the UK though ;)

[FIREWALL]

Thanks :)

I'm in the UK though ;)


Check with other UK members and see where they get PC stuff cheap.

[onelifecrisis]

Oh. My. God. You can get solid state SATA drives now! I want one! Does anyone know how much hard disk space Vista Home Basic uses up?

[Fluffysheap]

I'm not expecting great compatibility from Windows 7 when it first comes out but it should not be any worse than Vista. Main problem is that 64-bit on Windows 7 will be much more common than it is on Vista, and 64-bit makes some things worse compatibility-wise.

The Phenom is quite a bit faster than the Athlon, here's a good article:
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/phenom-athlon-core-scaling-compared,1759.html

Number of cores doesn't matter much for games, more than 2 cores aren't used by most games and DirectX prior to 11 makes it hard to do it even if you want to. But other kinds of apps (like video, photoshop, modeling, etc) can use more cores. AMD CPUs are competitive only at the low end anyway. Best CPU for the money by a wide margin right now is the Intel Core i5 series.

You cannot put an X16 PCI-e card (such as a graphics card) in an X1 PCI-e slot. Look at the slots you will see why :) X1 PCI-e slots are for network and sound cards typically. There are also X4 slots out there. On some motherboards there are slots that are X16 if you use one video card, and X8 if you use two. This will work OK but it's a little slower than those that are just X16 all of the time. It's not a big factor though really.

You don't need an SLI motherboard for Crossfire, current Crossfire requires only modern video cards and a motherboard with the right number of slots. SLI compatibility is an nVidia licensing thing that adds a couple bucks to the cost of the motherboard but doesn't actually mean anything hardware wise. Sometimes you can flash a non-SLI motherboard BIOS with the SLI BIOS version and get it to work, i.e. Gigabyte LGA1366 motherboards are like this, of course that's something where you need to do your own research before trying. But if you want to use ATI cards it's all moot anyway.

ATI hybrid crossfire is better than nothing but the 4850 is faster than the 3200+4550 put together anyway so that should answer that question. Main use of the hybrid crossfire capability is for people who have a motherboard with integrated graphics already and decide to put an add-in card in it. You shouldn't build a system specifically to take advantage of hybrid crossfire, it's no performance setup - I think the main reason it exists is to encourage people who own motherboards with ATI integrated graphics to buy ATI video cards.

I'm not a huge fan of crossfire/SLI in general. Main benefit is if you want to run really high resolutions with AA turned on. I have only a single 4870 and I can run most games in full detail at 1600x1200 without trouble, on new games I have to choose between high resolution and AA though.

[onelifecrisis]

I'm not expecting great compatibility from Windows 7 when it first comes out but it should not be any worse than Vista. Main problem is that 64-bit on Windows 7 will be much more common than it is on Vista, and 64-bit makes some things worse compatibility-wise.

The Phenom is quite a bit faster than the Athlon, here's a good article:
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/phenom-athlon-core-scaling-compared,1759.html

Number of cores doesn't matter much for games, more than 2 cores aren't used by most games and DirectX prior to 11 makes it hard to do it even if you want to. But other kinds of apps (like video, photoshop, modeling, etc) can use more cores. AMD CPUs are competitive only at the low end anyway. Best CPU for the money by a wide margin right now is the Intel Core i5 series.

You cannot put an X16 PCI-e card (such as a graphics card) in an X1 PCI-e slot. Look at the slots you will see why :) X1 PCI-e slots are for network and sound cards typically. There are also X4 slots out there. On some motherboards there are slots that are X16 if you use one video card, and X8 if you use two. This will work OK but it's a little slower than those that are just X16 all of the time. It's not a big factor though really.

You don't need an SLI motherboard for Crossfire, current Crossfire requires only modern video cards and a motherboard with the right number of slots. SLI compatibility is an nVidia licensing thing that adds a couple bucks to the cost of the motherboard but doesn't actually mean anything hardware wise. Sometimes you can flash a non-SLI motherboard BIOS with the SLI BIOS version and get it to work, i.e. Gigabyte LGA1366 motherboards are like this, of course that's something where you need to do your own research before trying. But if you want to use ATI cards it's all moot anyway.

ATI hybrid crossfire is better than nothing but the 4850 is faster than the 3200+4550 put together anyway so that should answer that question. Main use of the hybrid crossfire capability is for people who have a motherboard with integrated graphics already and decide to put an add-in card in it. You shouldn't build a system specifically to take advantage of hybrid crossfire, it's no performance setup - I think the main reason it exists is to encourage people who own motherboards with ATI integrated graphics to buy ATI video cards.

I'm not a huge fan of crossfire/SLI in general. Main benefit is if you want to run really high resolutions with AA turned on. I have only a single 4870 and I can run most games in full detail at 1600x1200 without trouble, on new games I have to choose between high resolution and AA though.

Excellent info, thanks very much Fluffysheap! I think I'm getting a grip now on the latest hardware technobabble (I ought to be, having spent all day reading about it :doh:) and I've found a good deal on the following system:

Intel Core i5-750
nVidia GeForce GTX 260 896MB (in a 16X PCI-E 2.0 slot)
2GB DDR3 1600MHz
640GB 7200rpm SATA HDD (3GB/s, 16MB cache)

I figure that CPU and GPU combo should run everything out there. The 2GB of RAM can be increased later if needed, but the HDD... well it's certainly big enough for my purposes, but will it be fast enough for modern games?

[Arclight]

The HD is the last thing to worry about, if you have enough RAM (seriously, go with 4GB, 2x2GB). But considering it has a 16MB cache, it's a modern drive, it will keep up just fine.

[onelifecrisis]

Thanks Arclight.
Can you explain why I need an extra 2Gb? I mean I've yet to see any games recommend more than 2Gb of RAM. Even the YouGamers recommended rigs, for the more demanding games I've looked at, never seem to exceed 2Gb.

[onelifecrisis]

This thread starts getting interesting at post #15

http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93330

[onelifecrisis]

Should I get Vista 32bit or 64bit? I've done some googling on this and can't find a definitive answer.

All my apps are 32bit, and to run them Vista 64bit would have to operate in "32bit emulation mode". One point to Vista 32bit.

Vista 64bit can handle more than 4Gb of RAM. This would seem to be one point to 64bit, but when you consider that 4Gb is already twice as much as is needed by the most demanding games (see previous posts) I'm thinking it's more like half a point to 64bit.

Vista 64bit will be more future proof, but that future seems a long way off right now, since there are hardly any games at all which utilise 64bit technology and none on the horizon. Half a point to 64bit.

So it's even stevens at one point each. :hmmm:

[bybyx]

I really wasn't sure where to post this. :-? It's not got anything to do with SH3 Mods, but I figure the mods forum is where the techy types hang out.

Anyway it's time to replace my 5YO rig, but I'm a bit baffled by the new hardware options. Which is better - a standalone HD4850 graphics card, or a HD4550 in hybrid crossfire with a HD3200? Also, how much more powerful is a Phenom II X4 when compared with an Athlon II X4? Help plz. :oops:

Hello OLC. I like this topic of yours.:DL
I will start by asking the most important question. How big is the budget for your pc? The second most important is. For what purpose will you use it? And another: From where are you going to buy the rig? A link to some sites in UK will help.
Here's my two cents::hmmm:
When you buy a new rig it is always good to plan ahead. I personally take my time and buy when a completely new generation comes to the market. Why? Because after 2 years or so I can upgrade my rig without the need to start from scratch. Having a latest generation motherboard and a good PSU will allow you, 2 years from now, to upgrade 2 or 3 parts like CPU, Ram, Video Card and give a new life to your PC. For example I bought a PC in 2004 when I started my PHD studies in Geography because I was in need of a more potent PC for working with maps, and for playing DOOM3, Far Cry and HL2:D. In 2006 I replaced the, Cpu, Video Card and added 1gb of Ram. I could do all this because the motherboard and PSU could support the newer and more power hungry parts parts. In my opinion the priority of the parts in a PC is:
1. See what you can use from you current rig ( optical drives, FDD, a HDD for storage etc.) I still have in my PC the 2004 CD-RW and DVD-RW.
2. Motherboard. A good motherboard is more reliable and it allows you to place more powerful components and in generally it makes the computer run more smoothly. Also an advanced motherboard is ideal for overclocking
3. PSU. Provides power to the entire rig. A good quality PSU will ensure stability, protection and enough juice for the components in a PC, especially for the power hungry Video Cards.
4. CPU. You need a good CPU to run different applications faster. Also having a powerful CPU is not enough. You will need fast RAM,fast HDD and fast Video Card. There is a need for balance between these components. You can have the most powerful CPU, but a crappy Video Card will slow the PC down and vice versa. Sadly a lot of games are CPU bounded and not VGA bounded.
5. RAM. The more ram you have the better. Choose Ram that will go with the motherboard. Fast Ram is great.
6. Hdd. Is better to have more than one. If the budget allows buy a really fast one for OS, programs and games and a standard one slower but with large capacity for storage. The Hdd is the slowest part in a PC.
7. Video Card.(VGA) This one is a bitch. A powerful card is expensive, two are even more expensive.
8. Case. A PC needs ventilation in order to keep the temperature down. Heat for a PC is bad. A big case is necessary for a powerful rig.
9. Sound Card goes hand in hand with the loudspeakers. If you want excellent sound buy excellent sound card and speakers.
The rest like optical drives, Fdd( really buy one! is very cheap and you never know when you will need one) mouse, keyboard, mouse pad, display are more of a "Chacun a son gout"

Hope it helps!

[Fluffysheap]

I'd probably get XP and then upgrade to Windows 7 later. Everybody hates Vista although, in reality, Windows 7 is not going to be that different. Unless you have some DX10 thing you want to use right now though, there's no good reason to get Vista. You can still find XP and OEM versions of XP are pretty cheap.

640GB is a small drive by today's standards, but it depends on what you do. I have 3TB total but then, I also use my PC as a media server. A friend of mine has 500GB and only does games and the web and his drive is still half empty. If you mostly care about games 640GB will be OK.

It's hard to upgrade RAM nowadays... it's not like the old days where you could just stick in more RAM and have it work. Now all the RAM in a system has to "match" so you pretty much have to take the old RAM out when you put in new. I tried to upgrade from 2GB to 4GB and I even made sure to get the same part number of RAM, but it wouldn't work because the manufacturer had changed the voltage rating on the memory without changing the part number!

Whether to get 2GB or 4GB depends on what you are doing. If you just want to run games and you don't plan on doing any funny business, then 2GB is probably enough for now. But if you want to do something like leave your web browser open with a couple dozen tabs while you play, or use non-game apps that are big memory users (photoshop, modeling programs, whatever), you'll be happier with 4GB. Even though any one program in a 32-bit system is limited to 2GB of memory, the extra RAM will allow you to multitask better. Plus, the OS takes up half a gig nowadays. But most importantly, RAM is cheap - to go from 2GB to 4GB will cost you $30 and save you an upgrade a year from now when it starts to matter. The downside is that, without 64-bit OS, you can't use the whole 4GB. (Well 32-bit Linux can, and Server 2003, but you're not going to use either of those for games!)

One last thing, be sure to get a good power supply. This can have a significant impact on your system stability and upgradability. Overall, power supply quality is improving in the sense that a medium-priced PSU can now be as good as a really good one from a couple years ago; but a cheap power supply will suck as much as ever.

Edit: Awesome! I look like Popeye now!

[onelifecrisis]

Thanks bybyx. I am a few steps ahead of you I think. ;)

I can use the peripherals (keyboard, mouse, monitor) and optical drives from my old PC as well as (if needed) the sound card. With this in mind I've shopped around and the best sites I've found so far are www.pcspecialist.co.uk (excellent) and www.cyberpowersystems.co.uk (also very good). The former has a deal on 4850X2 cards, and I've put together this system for £587 including VAT and delivery:

Motherboard: GIGABYTE GA-P55M-UD2
CPU: Intel® Core™i5
GPU: 1GB ATI RADEON™ HD 4850X2 (considerably more powerful than a GTX 260 or even a GTX 280, but priced amazingly because of their special offer)
RAM: 2GB DDR3 1600MHz (another 2GB would push the price past my £600 limit)
HDD: 250GB SERIAL ATA 3-Gb/s HARD DRIVE WITH 8MB CACHE (7,200rpm)
O/S: Windows Vista Home Basic (32bit)
PSU: High Quality 450W PSU

It has no peripherals and no optical drives.

Their site has a neat feature where you choose your custom build and it works out how much power you'll need (it even adds a 20% contingency to be safe). Also their PSU's are good quality ones, judging by the prices they're charging for them (PSUs are the only thing on the site that aren't amazingly well priced) which I find reassuring given that my old PC has blown 3 PSUs in the last 3 weeks.

Also, with the build above I get a free copy of Operation Flashpoint 2 which is a nice bonus since that's one the games I wanted a new rig for.

[onelifecrisis]

I'd probably get XP and then upgrade to Windows 7 later. Everybody hates Vista although, in reality, Windows 7 is not going to be that different. Unless you have some DX10 thing you want to use right now though, there's no good reason to get Vista. You can still find XP and OEM versions of XP are pretty cheap.

I actually have an OEM version of XP but it came with my old Alienware. I assume that if I try to install it on my new PC then something will go tits up?

640GB is a small drive by today's standards, but it depends on what you do. I have 3TB total but then, I also use my PC as a media server. A friend of mine has 500GB and only does games and the web and his drive is still half empty. If you mostly care about games 640GB will be OK.

Trust me, I will never get anywhere near 640Gb. I don't store music or videos on my PC, I just use it for work and games, and I tend to play only a few games at any given time. My old HDD is a 70Gb drive and I rarely used more than two thirds of it.

It's hard to upgrade RAM nowadays... it's not like the old days where you could just stick in more RAM and have it work. Now all the RAM in a system has to "match"...

That's not actually new. ;) 9 years ago I upgraded the RAM in a system of mine and was told back then that I had to match the current RAM exactly (manufacturer and everything) so I did. It's not a big problem IMO as long as you know exactly what kind of RAM you have.

...but if you want to do something like leave your web browser open with a couple dozen tabs while you play...

:o
I find the very suggestion of such behaviour to be horrifying! :har: Seriously, I do not do that. I hate stutter in games and will close everything (even system services) to ensure a smooth game. That's a long-time habit and not likely to change. So, from what you say it sounds like I'll be good with 2Gb. :rock:

One last thing, be sure to get a good power supply...

LOL, we x-posted on that methinks ;)

[onelifecrisis]

Ahh, google is my friend.

http://forums.kustompcs.co.uk/showthread.php?t=42918

[CaptainHaplo]

Onelife - seriously reconsider the 450W ps...

The 4850x2 alone requires a 650W ps. You try hooking it to a 450, your going to have problems.

With the rig your looking at - a 750 or 850 Watt is probably a better long term option.

DO NOT SKIMP ON THE PS! I suggest something like Corsair or other high end, quality PS.

I just picked up a 750W Corsair for $120. Can't beat that when it has a 5 year warranty.

Processor questions have already been addressed. As for vid cards, I have used both Nvidia and ATI, have been on ATI for most of the recent years, but went ahead and got a GTX260 OC'd out of the box by BFG. Lifetime warranty - $200. So far, I haven't been able to force ANYTHING I playunder 60fps. (But dang that thing was HUGE!)

For Crossfire/SLI - you have to have 2 pci-e X16 slots - and usually you have to use the same family of cards... Like 2 GT9800's - but not a 9800 and an 8800. Going with an X2 style board is fine as long as you make sure your Mainboard has the room for it without losing additional slots because they are covered.

More memory is always good. If you choose 32 bit OS though, don't get over 4. It can't address it.

No reason not to go 64 bit UNLESS you run really old stuff. Then, you have dosbox. 7 is definitely the way to go regardless. Its what Vista should have been years ago.

[Arclight]

Thanks Arclight.
Can you explain why I need an extra 2Gb? I mean I've yet to see any games recommend more than 2Gb of RAM. Even the YouGamers recommended rigs, for the more demanding games I've looked at, never seem to exceed 2Gb.
It's about future expansion, mainly. Put in 2x1GB now, and you can expand with another 2x1GB, limiting you to 4GB. Put in 2x2GB now, and you have the option to put in another 2x2GB later. It's about not having to toss out those 4 1GB sticks if you ever want more than 4GB total.

Also, only having 2 sticks instead of 4 puts less strain on the system. I'd recommend only using half the memory slots of a motherboard for any gaming PC, if only for that little bit lower power-consumption and slightly (unnoticeable) increased stability+performance.

That post you linked to has another good point: more memory makes it less likely to run out, which avoides paging to the HD (though more than 4GB is never nescesary with current Windows versions; any single program is limited to 2GB max). I ran 2GB for a while, but went to 4GB eventually (from 2x1GB to 2x2GB). Can't say I really notice the difference, but at least I know that if a game needs the full 2GB it can ask for, it's available with plenty to spare for the OS and other progs running in the background.

(trust me, there's plenty of games that need the full 2GB they can get)

Imho, considering the prices, there's really no reason to not go for the 4GB. You'll never regret it, I can promiss you that. ;)


For the 64 vs 32 bit thing, I'd say go with 64. I only switched to 64 bit when the Win7 beta came around, and I haven't run into any issues yet. All I had to do was collect the correct drivers for my system, that's it. Don't know about this "emulation mode", but if it's there it's fully transparant; no actions are required from you to get something running.

Win7 (and I guess Vista) puts 32bit apps in a different "program files" folder as 64bit ones. I guess as long as you stick with the default directories there's nothing to worry about. Though I put all my games somewhere else (all 32bit, offcourse), and everything runs fine. :hmmm:

*ah yes, and you gain excess to the full 4GB of RAM, should you go with that.
** like CH points out, reconsider the PSU. I have 520W, and I'm a bit afraid to stick in, say, a radeon 5870. Performance degrades over time as well, which is another thing to keep in mind. If you ever decide to stick in another graph.card and go SLI/Crossfire, you'll be glad you got that 750W one instead.
(for your average system, 500+ should be fine for single card, 600+ for dual, but I'm inclined to recommend 600 for single and 750 for dual, considering the fact cards demand more and more power)

[onelifecrisis]

The 4850x2 alone requires a 650W ps.

With all due respect mate, that's bollocks.
http://www.pcper.com/article.php?aid=642&type=expert&pid=10

Besides, the general consensus and my own experience both suggest that the quality of the PSU is far more important than it's power rating.

Still, I take on board the general point you're making and I may use the money I save by leaving out the OS to change the 450W up to a 600W, just to be on the safe side. :cool:

[onelifecrisis]

It's about future expansion, mainly. Put in 2x1GB now, and you can expand with another 2x1GB, limiting you to 4GB. Put in 2x2GB now, and you have the option to put in another 2x2GB later. It's about not having to toss out those 4 1GB sticks if you ever want more than 4GB total.

Also, only having 2 sticks instead of 4 puts less strain on the system. I'd recommend only using half the memory slots of a motherboard for any gaming PC, if only for that little bit lower power-consumption and slightly (unnoticeable) increased stability+performance.

That post you linked to has another good point: more memory makes it less likely to run out, which avoides paging to the HD (though more than 4GB is never nescesary with current Windows versions; any single program is limited to 2GB max). I ran 2GB for a while, but went to 4GB eventually (from 2x1GB to 2x2GB). Can't say I really notice the difference, but at least I know that if a game needs the full 2GB it can ask for, it's available with plenty to spare for the OS and other progs running in the background.

Imho, considering the prices, there's really no reason to not go for the 4GB. You'll never regret it, I can promiss you that. ;)


For the 64 vs 32 bit thing, I'd say go with 64. I only switched to 64 bit when the Win7 beta came around, and I haven't run into any issues yet. All I had to do was collect the correct drivers for my system, that's it. Don't know about this "emulation mode", but if it's there it's fully transparant; no actions are required from you to get something running.

Win7 (and I guess Vista) puts 32bit apps in a different "program files" folder as 64bit ones. I guess as long as you stick with the default directories there's nothing to worry about. Though I put all my games somewhere else (all 32bit, offcourse), and everything runs fine. :hmmm:

*ah yes, and you gain excess to the full 4GB of RAM, should you go with that.

Hmm, thanks for the advice, but I'm not convinced. :hmmm: I reckon that by the time I'm needing 8Gb of RAM this system will be ready for the trashcan. In the meantime I have the space to upgrade to 4Gb when that starts being beneficial (which, as far as I can tell, it currently is not - at least not for people like me who use one app at a time ;)).

[Arclight]

Games, right? If a game needs 2GB, it can only get 1.5, because your OS is sapping the rest.

You really want 4GB, but you don't nescesarilly need it. ;)

[onelifecrisis]

Okay here's a question for you Arclight. If you could choose between these, which would you choose?

1) 2GB RAM with a 640GB HDD (7200rpm, 16MB cache)
2) 4GB RAM with a 250GB HDD (7200rpm, 8MB cache)

Bearing in mind that for me, the extra space on the HDD is not of benefit but the extra speed given by that space (and by the extra cache) is appealing.

In my experience many games do not make good use of RAM. They tend not to preload very well, and will happily thrash the HDD when data is needed, in spite of the fact that I have (typically) a spare 1 Gb of RAM sat around doing nothing (which could have been preloaded with the data beforehand). Because of this, I'm inclined to go with option 1. Option 1 is also a bit cheaper than option 2.

[Arclight]

The second.

I think you'll get a better experience from doubling the RAM than doubling the cache on the HD. Once everything is in memory, paging is minimal.

Are you looking at WD drives? You might consider a 160GB drive then, should be faster than the 250GB model. :hmmm:

[onelifecrisis]

Once everything is in memory, paging is minimal.

I agree. But have you ever actually watched the memory usage of your games? Generally they will be programmed to use a certain amount and if you've got more than that certain amount then they simply won't use it, and your extra RAM is quite literally sat there doing nothing.

Are you looking at WD drives? You might consider a 160GB drive then, should be faster than the 250GB model. :hmmm:

Really? I read somewhere that, all other things being equal, a larger drive will be faster than a smaller one. :hmmm: If what you say is true then I'll go for the smaller one. All I care about on the HDD is speed. I don't need space.

Edit1: The site doesn't specify the HDD manufacturer. I'll call them and ask.
Edit2: I found the part of their site listing manufacturers. Apparently all their hard disks are either Seagate or WD.

[Arclight]

It's just a theory though, I'll see if I can dig something up.

Basically, most manufacturers use 250, 500, 750 etc. WD switched to 160, 320, 640 etc.

It comes down to the way the platter for the drive is manufactured. Those 640GB drives are very fast, so I extend the logic to conclude those 160 (or 320) drives will have high performance as well.


On memory use; depends on the game. I don't know what you usually play, but I imagine OFP2 doesn't do a proper job because it was designed to run on consoles, which obviously are pretty limited memory wise.

For example, Supreme Commander can suffer a crash from exceding it's 2GB address limit, so there are definetly games that actually need all of it.

[onelifecrisis]

On memory use; depends on the game. I don't know what you usually play...

Well there are several upcoming titles I'm interested in and several recent (ish) ones that I missed out on because my PC couldn't handle them. Off the top of my head I plan to be playing Operation Flashpoint 2, Diablo 3 (should be very easy on any system, it's Blizzard after all), Silent Hunter 5 (obviously), Empire: Total War, and maybe the upcoming Napoleon: Total War as well. Oh and at some point I want to get a steering wheel and play some racers, but I don't know which ones yet, most of them seem quite "arcadey" these days, but the graphics in DiRT and GRID are really nice. :DL

[onelifecrisis]

And maybe Crysis.
Just to see how nice it looks. :lol:

[bybyx]

I will take:
a PSU from Corsair because they have a single powerful +12V rail.
4 gb of ram in an instant. I will go with Mushkin Ram. I used Ram from Mushkin in 3 PC-s in the last year and they work fine. Sh3 with GWX3 eats almost 700mb of ram. Add that to whatever Windows eats up and you find that 2gb is rather...low. and I have Win Xp pro 32bits.
Videocard wise take a ATI 5850. It is DX11 capable. If you have more money take the 5870. A 4850X2 is powerful but limited in some games because some of them are designed in a way that those 2 VPU-s won't be used. The same thing goes sometimes for crossfire and SLI sistems.
Regarding the Hdd get a SATA2 WD or Seagate or Hitachi Hdd. They are fine all of them. 500gb at least

PS.
£600 is not much for a gaming system.

[onelifecrisis]

@bybyx

DX11, eh? The list of current DX10 games is rather short... and even those games usually only have one little extra thing (e.g. God Rays, or Cloud Shadows) that DX10 can do and DX9 can't. I'm not sure that DX11 support is a priority for me right now.

SH3+mods uses only 700Mb on your system!? :o On my old rig it will quite happily eat up all of the 2GB RAM and then some. Seeing all my RAM being used like that gives me a warm fuzzy feeling. :smug: But SH3+mods is very much the exception to the rule, at least in the collection of games that I own. Generally, games that could be using 2GB (if they'd only been programmed to) will only use 1GB. As for Windows itself, if properly configured XP will use hardly anything at all.

A 4850X2 is powerful but limited in some games because some of them are designed in a way that those 2 VPU-s won't be used.

Now you just spoiled my day. :( Can you give me more details on this? I thought crossfire was supposed to always work, not just on games that are designed for it but on all games.

PS.
£600 is not much for a gaming system.

If you'd like to send me some cash to help me buy a better one, I won't object.

[Arclight]

I will take:
a PSU from Corsair because they have a single powerful +12V rail.
4 gb of ram in an instant. I will go with Mushkin Ram. I used Ram from Mushkin in 3 PC-s in the last year and they work fine. Sh3 with GWX3 eats almost 700mb of ram. Add that to whatever Windows eats up and you find that 2gb is rather...low. and I have Win Xp pro 32bits.
Videocard wise take a ATI 5850. It is DX11 capable. If you have more money take the 5870. A 4850X2 is powerful but limited in some games because some of them are designed in a way that those 2 VPU-s won't be used. The same thing goes sometimes for crossfire and SLI sistems.
Regarding the Hdd get a SATA2 WD or Seagate or Hitachi Hdd. They are fine all of them. 500gb at least

PS.
£600 is not much for a gaming system.

What he said. :D

Even if 2GB is (just) enough today, you might need a little more not long from now.

I'd stick with WD 320 or 640 though. :hmmm:


Add 100-150 to that budget, and imho the overall quality of the system goes up a lot.

[onelifecrisis]

What is wrong with you two? Do you think money grows on trees? My budget is £600 for a reason.

If you think that the 4GB is really all that essential then suggest a lower graphics card or processor or something. From what I'm seeing, the £40 it will cost me to get the extra 2GB of RAM is going to drop my CPU/GPU specs by a massive amount - a much larger drop than can possibly be compensated for with an extra 2GB of (probably unused) RAM. The CPU/GPU looks to me to be the right place to be putting that £40, but if you have ANY evidence to the contrary then I'm all ears. I've scoured the web for (unmodded) PC games that can use 4GB and come up with diddly squat.

[onelifecrisis]

Okay, following the advice here I'm now looking at this system:

Intel® Core™i5 Processor i5-750 (2.66GHz) 8MB Cache
2GB CORSAIR XMS3 DUAL-DDR3 1600MHz
GIGABYTE GA-P55M-UD2
NO OPERATING SYSTEM (I will install my old *cough* OEM *cough* copy of XP PRO)
640GB WD 3-Gb/s HARD DRIVE WITH 16MB CACHE (7,200rpm)
1GB ATI RADEON™ HD 4850X2
600W Quiet Quad Rail PSU + 120mm Case Fan
FREE Operation FlashPoint D.R. Game (RRP: €49.99)

Please read this, from the website I'm ordering from:

Q. I think I need a really powerful power supply, and I have seen a 600W or above model for around £20 - £30 in the shops. Why are your power supplies more expensive?

A. There are no rules that are set in stone governing how you can rate the wattage of a power supply, and naturally people think that more power is better. The rated wattage of power supplies we sell are the true, constant power output and not the peak output. (Peak output is that power that a power supply can output for a few seconds.) Not naming any brands, if you search the high street, you can purchase what apparently appear to be 600W or even 700W power supplies for around £20, but be warned - these are likely to be power supplies that have been rated on their peak output and not their constant output. Some power supplies do not even give their stated output at peak. For a 600W or above power supply with a true constant output using reliable components, you should be looking at paying anything from £50 upwards.

Our high end power supplies (even though they may only be 400W - 500W) are tried and tested to give your computer a constant supply of quality power. Component manufacturers, such as graphics card manufacturers often over label the power supply requirements of their cards to cover for PSU manufacturers who have labeled power supplies as peak output and not constant output.

£574 including VAT and delivery

Thoughts? £600 limit here.

[Arclight]

The difference between a 2GB or 4GB kit is about €30,-.

You're not gonna loose the house over €30,-, right? :-?

And it's cheaper in the long run to get 2x2 than 2x1 and another pair later. :hmmm:



To be honest, I'd be more concerned about that PSU, especially with a dual-GPU card. If money is tight, forget about the memory, just get a decent PSU.

I'm guessing this is some pre-built system? You'd save a lot of money getting the parts and putting it together yourself. 600,- can go a long way, but not if you are paying someone to stick a few components in a case and put in some screws.

[onelifecrisis]

The difference between a 2GB or 4GB kit is about €30,-.

You are talking about 1600HMz DDR3 RAM? If so, link please.

You're not gonna loose the house over €30,-, right? :-?

I already lost the house, literally. Like I said, there's a reason for my budget. Help me out here.

And it's cheaper in the long run to get 2x2 than 2x1 and another pair later. :hmmm:

You think? Memory prices are always dropping. I figure that by the time I upgrade to 4GB I'll be paying £20 instead of £40.

To be honest, I'd be more concerned about that PSU, especially with a dual-GPU card. If money is tight, forget about the memory, just get a decent PSU.

Did you read what I quoted from their site? It's not a 600W peak power output, it's a 600W steady power output. Also, the test I linked on the 4850X2 showed the entire system using less than 400W at it's peak.

I'm guessing this is some pre-built system? You'd save a lot of money getting the parts and putting it together yourself. 600,- can go a long way, but not if you are paying someone to stick a few components in a case and put in some screws.

It's not pre-built, it's custom built, but I take your point. I could probably just about manage to put a PC together myself. I have plenty of experience swapping components in and out but no experience in building a PC from scratch. My main concerns with buying seperate components and assembling them myself are 1) I may mismatch components (a good PC supplier won't do that) and 2) I get no warranty that way.

[Arclight]

Last I saw was that 400 something PSU, didn't see the update.

memory: http://www.salland.eu/category/products/533/ddr3-sdram.html?catid=533&formaction=filter&bf=55&pf_891=15178%2C15179&pf_893=0&pf_896=0&sp=0&pf_892=15597&pf_894=0&df=2&rf=0%2C00&rt=N.v.t.

Will take a while before 2x1GB kit costs less than 30,-.



Give me a minute (or 30 :D); building something to figure out a reasonable price. :-?

[onelifecrisis]

memory: http://www.salland.eu/category/products/533/ddr3-sdram.html?catid=533&formaction=filter&bf=55&pf_891=15178%2C15179&pf_893=0&pf_896=0&sp=0&pf_892=15597&pf_894=0&df=2&rf=0%2C00&rt=N.v.t.

Thanks :) but my German is limited to "Yavol hair kaloyn" and "shiff geshistet" :-? but I will have a shop around on UK sites and see what I can find.

Will take a while before 2x1GB kit costs less than 30,-.

Give me a minute (or 30 :D); building something to figure out a reasonable price. :-?

Sweet, thanks!

[Arclight]

Bah. :damn:

Nope, can't make it work for that price. Probably says a lot about the prices in Holland. :-?
(went over 600,- without the memory)

That last update looks pretty good, my only concern would be the manufacturer of the PSU (don't even get me started on the quad-rail marketing BS :lol:). Other than that it looks solid. :yep:

[bybyx]

@bybyx

DX11, eh? The list of current DX10 games is rather short... and even those games usually only have one little extra thing (e.g. God Rays, or Cloud Shadows) that DX10 can do and DX9 can't. I'm not sure that DX11 support is a priority for me right now.

SH3+mods uses only 700Mb on your system!? :o On my old rig it will quite happily eat up all of the 2GB RAM and then some. Seeing all my RAM being used like that gives me a warm fuzzy feeling. :smug: But SH3+mods is very much the exception to the rule, at least in the collection of games that I own. Generally, games that could be using 2GB (if they'd only been programmed to) will only use 1GB. As for Windows itself, if properly configured XP will use hardly anything at all.



Now you just spoiled my day. :( Can you give me more details on this? I thought crossfire was supposed to always work, not just on games that are designed for it but on all games.



If you'd like to send me some cash to help me buy a better one, I won't object.

Crossfire and Sli does not always work. No support in the games for SLI or Crossfire or for dual Gpu an a single card then no gaming at maximum. Go for a single powerful card. I am looking at the links you posted regarding the pc. I'll see what I can find.
Regarding the cash I believe there is a saying in UK, something like Would if i could but I can't? I am sorry but the prices in UK are way to big.
However the sistem at 600 pounds is ok. You could add 2gb more in the future.

[onelifecrisis]

Crossfire and Sli does not always work. No support in the games for SLI or Crossfire or for dual Gpu an a single card then no gaming at maximum. Go for a single powerful card. I am looking at the links you posted regarding the pc. I'll see what I can find.
Regarding the cash I believe there is a saying in UK, something like Would if i could but I can't? I am sorry but the prices in UK are way to big.
However the sistem at 600 pounds is ok. You could add 2gb more in the future.

Okay thanks for the advice. I did some digging and found plenty of support for what you're saying. I guess I could go for a GTX 260 instead, which they are offering at exactly the same price as the HD 4850X2. The GTX 260 is less powerful than two 4850's combined, but more powerful than a single 4850.

[onelifecrisis]

Seeing as the i5 has Turbo Boost, I'm thinking of adding this to the spec:

SUPER QUIET 22dBA TRIPLE COPPER HEATPIPE CPU COOLER

That pushes the price up from £574 to £589, which is still in budget. I figure that'll give the Turbo Boost "room to breath" (no pun intended). What do you think? Waste of money?

[Arclight]

Turbo boost shouldn't increase temps; it works by shutting down cores that aren't used and "boosting" the active ones. Basically, CPUs are designed for a certain power-envelope. Overclock a normal CPU and the consumption goes up, and temps along with it. But by shutting down unused cores, "turbo boost" keeps the CPU within it's envelope while boosting performance for apps that don't utilize all cores. (most games, for example)

That said, any improvement over the stock cooler is good. :up:

[onelifecrisis]

Turbo boost shouldn't increase temps; it works by shutting down cores that aren't used and "boosting" the active ones. Basically, CPUs are designed for a certain power-envelope. Overclock a normal CPU and the consumption goes up, and temps along with it. But by shutting down unused cores, "turbo boost" keeps the CPU within it's envelope while boosting performance for apps that don't utilize all cores. (most games, for example)

That said, any improvement over the stock cooler is good. :up:

Oh I must have got my terminology wrong again. By "turbo boost" I meant the built-in auto-overclocking feature on the i5 processor. It can dynamically change the clock speed of each core according to factors like load and temperature. Apparently each core can go as high as 3.2GHz (the default is 2.66) and that's without the user doing any overclocking at all (i.e. without changing multiplier or FSB speeds). Or so I read somewhere...

[onelifecrisis]

I was right, it's called Turbo Boost.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbo_Boost

Anyway sounds like the cooler is a good idea.

[Arclight]

:DL

That's what I was talking about: it shuts down unused cores and OCs (boosts) the others.

Cooler is good, but like I said it shouldn't increase temps because the CPU keeps using the same amount of power at all times.

[CaptainHaplo]

Onelife - I understand what your saying - but remember that is under test conditions from the link you gave.

Here is a bit of REAL WORLD info....

http://www.overclock.net/ati/471762-4850x2-power-supply.html

Guy has a 550W PSU - and he doesn't have the power to run the 4850x2. Everything points to a hefty PS of at LEAST 600W or more. When you start figuring on drives, CPU/Mainboard, additional periphirals - you are looking at cutting your tolerances WAY TO THIN with anything less than 600+. Also remember that you don't want to run the PS at max - your going to blow it out quicker. Better to add in a bit of a safety factor, or the next time you hook up something to a powered usb port, it might just go up in smoke.

Its your build, but you asked for advice.

I am in the US so I can't buy in pounds - but 600 works out to $955 in American Dollars. Now - with that budget - here is the HARDWARE I would purchase to get the best "bang for the buck". (This assumes you are going to use your current case and any Optical Data drive - CD/DVD reader or burner.)

Asus M4A78-EM - $89.99
Phenom II X4 965 Black - $239.00
2X Seagate 750Gb HD's (32MB Cache) 7200rpm - $59.94 Each
Transcend ddr3 1800 4BG kit $159
Corsair TX750W PSU - $120

This totals to $728 - but does NOT include your vid card.
I didn't put it in because you have some choices at this point. We have a hare under $220 left. The Asus is setup for crossfire - but I suggest you avoid it. Instead - your BEST option would be:

ATI 4870 X2 for $199.99

You COULD go with a Nvidia GTX275 for $214 and stay within the budget - but you would be cutting it alot closer and really wouldn't get as good performance.

You could also cut costs on things like the second HD. Drop the second drive, go with the 4870x2 - and the savings cover all the sales tax on top of it.

This is without any OS - but since you indicated you were building that way anyway, no point in buying one.

[onelifecrisis]

Onelife - I understand what your saying - but remember that is under test conditions from the link you gave.

Here is a bit of REAL WORLD info....

http://www.overclock.net/ati/471762-4850x2-power-supply.html

Guy has a 550W PSU - and he doesn't have the power to run the 4850x2. Everything points to a hefty PS of at LEAST 600W or more. When you start figuring on drives, CPU/Mainboard, additional periphirals - you are looking at cutting your tolerances WAY TO THIN with anything less than 600+. Also remember that you don't want to run the PS at max - your going to blow it out quicker. Better to add in a bit of a safety factor, or the next time you hook up something to a powered usb port, it might just go up in smoke.

Its your build, but you asked for advice.

I am in the US so I can't buy in pounds - but 600 works out to $955 in American Dollars. Now - with that budget - here is the HARDWARE I would purchase to get the best "bang for the buck". (This assumes you are going to use your current case and any Optical Data drive - CD/DVD reader or burner.)

Asus M4A78-EM - $89.99
Phenom II X4 965 Black - $239.00
2X Seagate 750Gb HD's (32MB Cache) 7200rpm - $59.94 Each
Transcend ddr3 1800 4BG kit $159
Corsair TX750W PSU - $120

This totals to $728 - but does NOT include your vid card.
I didn't put it in because you have some choices at this point. We have a hare under $220 left. The Asus is setup for crossfire - but I suggest you avoid it. Instead - your BEST option would be:

ATI 4870 X2 for $199.99

You COULD go with a Nvidia GTX275 for $214 and stay within the budget - but you would be cutting it alot closer and really wouldn't get as good performance.

You could also cut costs on things like the second HD. Drop the second drive, go with the 4870x2 - and the savings cover all the sales tax on top of it.

This is without any OS - but since you indicated you were building that way anyway, no point in buying one.

Thanks very much, I appreciate that. From what I can find (lab tests mind you ;)) it looks like you have a very good recommendation there. The Core i5 is nice and shiny, but the X4 945/955/965 seem to offer better bang for buck, especially when placed on DDR2 boards such as the one you suggested.

Still shopping around...

[bybyx]

Any other PC shops around you area?
There must be something like Newegg in UK:06:

[bybyx]

I tried to build a system myself and came up with this at
http://www.cyberpowersystem.co.uk




Case: COOLERMASTER ELITE 310 Mid Tower Case
Lights & Illumination: NONE
Extra Case Fan Upgrade: Default Case Fan
Internal Expansion: NONE
Power Supply Upgrade: 700 Watts Power Supplies (SLI / CrossFire Ready Quad Rail Power Supply *** Not Recommended for Overclocking***)
CPU: Intel Core i5 750 2.66 MHZ 8MB Cache LGA1156 ***Overclockable XXX***
Overclocking Service: No Overclocking
Cooling Fan: INTEL LGA1156 CERTIFIED CPU FAN & HEATSINK
Motherboard: GigaByte P55M-UD2 Intel P55 Chipset SLI/CrossFireX DDR3 ATX Mainboard w/ 7.1 HD Audio, GbLAN, USB2.0, SATA-II RAID, 2 Gen2 PCIe, 2 PCIe X1 & 3 PCI *** XXX overclocking ***
Memory: 4GB (2x2GB) PC12800 DDR3/1600mhz Dual Channel Memory (G.SKILL NQ Series w/Heat Spreader ***Overclockable XXX***)
Video Card: ATI Radeon HD 4890 PCI-E x16 1GB DDR5 Video Card
Video Card 2: NONE
Video Card 3: NONE
Monitor & LCD: NONE
2nd Monitor: NONE
Hard Drive: Single Hard Drive (500GB SATA-II 3.0Gb/s 16MB Cache 7200RPM HDD)
Data Hard Drive: NONE
Hard Drive Cooler: None
Optical Drive: NONE
Optical Drive 2: NONE
Sound: HIGH DEFINITION ON-BOARD 7.1 AUDIO
Speakers: NONE
Network: ONBOARD 10/100 NETWORK CARD
MODEM: NONE
Keyboard: NONE
Mouse: NONE
Extra Thermal Display : NONE (AS SHOWN)
Wireless 802.11B/G Network Card: NONE
Wireless 802.11B/G Access Point: NONE
Flash Media Reader/Writer: None
Cable Wiring: None
Cables: None
Video Camera: NONE
Power Surge Protection: Belkin 6-Socket Surge Protector
IEEE Card: NONE
USB Port: Built-in USB 2.0 Ports
USB Portable Drive: NONE
Floppy: 1.44 MB FLOPPY DRIVE (BLACK COLOR)
OS: NONE - FORMAT HARD DRIVE ONLY(NO OVERCLOCKING AVALIABLE)
Windows 7 Upgrade Coupon: None
Media Center Remote & TV Tuner: NONE
RUSH SERVICE: NONE
WARRANTY SERVICE: STANDARD WARRANTY: 3-YEAR LIMITED WARRANTY PLUS LIFE-TIME TECHNICAL SUPPORT
HOME INSTALLATION SERVICE: NONE

It goes at 647,45 including VAT before all applicable rebates

[bybyx]

Where are you OLC??

I was thinking... :hmmm: You know how the Romans used to say: "In vino veritas". Well after a couple of glasses of Romania's finest wine, ( We really have some of the finest wines in the world. In the past the Popes in Vatican drank the wine from Transylvania.),a cigar and a poker game with my friends I started to see things more clearly. :D What if you could wait until winter! I mean there must be some special promotions during winter holidays. C'mon it's Christmas and New Year's eve and the rebates after. ATI already has a DX11 video card and Nvidia will follow soon. The prices for Cpu's will go down. The same goes for Ram and other things. AMD will put out their six core CPU.
What do you say?

Ps. It is 23:37 Pm when I write these words. I hope I am not talking s%&t

[onelifecrisis]

Unfortunately I need the PC for work as well as gaming, and for the former I really need it yesterday. Thanks a lot for the suggested system, I'll take a look. :)

[onelifecrisis]

Finally after three days of shopping around I've ordered this system from RL Supplies:

AsRock P55-PRO
Intel Core i5-750
GeForce GTX 260 (896MB)
2MB 1333MHz DDR3 (I can add more RAM later)
Maxtor 750GB SATA2 HDD (7,200rpm, 32MB cache)
Antec EarthWatts 650W PSU (Antec are good, right?)
Arctic Cooling 120mm Low Noise Case Fan
Arctic Cooling 80x25mm Low Noise Case Fan

Comes to £600 with VAT. No delivery charge because I'm collecting from the store on Wednesday.
:D

[CaptainHaplo]

Good solid Mainboard, solid chip, and highly capable vid card.

Yes, the earthwatts line - and antec in general - are very good PSU's.

That config gives you plenty of room to grow in a year or 2, as well as it will run great now!

Excellent choices!

[onelifecrisis]

Good solid Mainboard, solid chip, and highly capable vid card.

Yes, the earthwatts line - and antec in general - are very good PSU's.

That config gives you plenty of room to grow in a year or 2, as well as it will run great now!

Excellent choices!

:()1:

[onelifecrisis]

That config gives you plenty of room to grow in a year or 2, as well as it will run great now!

Yeh, I checked and that mainboard can be tweaked/hacked/whatever to support full SLI (it has two PCIex16 slots) so I can add another GTX 260 in a year or two, and keep the machine going that way. I know you guys (and everyone else on the net) say that SLI is crap, but I'm thinking about cost-effectiveness here. I reckon that adding a second identical card in SLI mode will be better than replacing the original card, in a year or so, in terms of bang-for-buck. By that time I should think most games will be coded to use SLI.

[onelifecrisis]

Bah, in my excitement I forgot my manners!

Thank you very much AVG, Raptor, Fluffysheap, Arclight, bybyx and Haplo for your excellent advice. :salute:

[AVGWarhawk]

Hmm, thanks for the advice, but I'm not convinced. :hmmm: I reckon that by the time I'm needing 8Gb of RAM this system will be ready for the trashcan. In the meantime I have the space to upgrade to 4Gb when that starts being beneficial (which, as far as I can tell, it currently is not - at least not for people like me who use one app at a time ;)).

Get the 4 gig of RAM! I had 4 gig and everything ran flawlessly. I bumped to 8 gig because...well....I could using 64 bit. The set up I see you selected is great but I would get the RAM addition. What you have will run all the bells and whistles on any game. :03:

[bybyx]

Excellent choice OLC. Enjoy your PC. My advice for you is to buy as much Ram as you can: 4gb, 8gb, 12 and so on. More ram will be better. with 8gb or more you can disable the page file sistem in Windows and speed up things. Install both Xp an Windows7. That Motherboard takes up to 16 gb, and goes with Crossfire like breeze. AsRock is ASUS's little brother. The P55 chipset is great.
:rock::yeah::salute:

[Arclight]

Aye, I think that system will serve you well. And I doubt you'll regret changing to that GTX; should run a bit cooler and quieter, and less stress on PSU again means less heat and noise. :yep: