Thoughts on deck guns

[Freiwillige]

After watching a youtube video of a type VII deck gun in action I noticed that the effect of the hits was not what I expected. There was a concussion that blew out the side of the ship and made the whole wall of the ship reverberate!

The destructive potential is definitely right in GWX!:yeah:

But I whonder if the shell penitrates the hull and detonates just inside the enclosed area? That would explain the blown out instead of the blown in effect I watched.

At any rate my observations are thus. 88mm deck guns blew ships apart and drastically at that. And the reload times were amazing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vQ8uWHo4uw&feature=PlayList&p=9FED0DAE52FF6907&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=37

[popcorn2721]

dude, thanks for posting that... I dont know if you noticed there is a link on the users details about that vid, you can download a nice long vid of some WWII action with just a click. Took me about 25 min to download, Ill let you know how good it is tomorrow.

[Freiwillige]

Let me know!:up:

[Zilch]

Cool link...thanks for pointing us at it.

[Jimbuna]

Here is a quick reference to the U-b0at deck guns:

http://www.uboataces.com/weapon-deck-gun.shtml

[Freiwillige]

Actually Starting at 25 seconds It fires THREE TIMES before the 33 second mark!:o:salute:

Thats a staggering three shots in 8 seconds!

Maybe load times are faster than we thought?

[Jimbuna]

A lot depended on the sea state, platform stability and the training/efficiency of the gun crew.

[popcorn2721]

Let me know!:up:
Ok I gave it a watch today, the film is 30min long and in German... looks like a propaganda film covering all branches of service on the front. Ive seen most of the footage before but its still worth a DL.

[Freiwillige]

Its probably all "Die Deutsche Wochenschau" German WWII News for the homefront.

[JScones]

Actually Starting at 25 seconds It fires THREE TIMES before the 33 second mark!:o:salute:

Thats a staggering three shots in 8 seconds!

Maybe load times are faster than we thought?
And thus, it begins (or more accurately, returns)...

[Commander Gizmo]

Actually Starting at 25 seconds It fires THREE TIMES before the 33 second mark!:o:salute:

Thats a staggering three shots in 8 seconds!

Maybe load times are faster than we thought?

There are quite a few cuts to other camera views during that 8 seconds. You sure the timing is perfect there?

[Freiwillige]

There are no cuts. I watched and re-watched and there are zero cuts in that film. The shells weighed 30 pounds each and a small guy could man handle them in and out of a breach fairly effectively. With that said I do realize that several factors do exist.

A. Deck gun crews only kept a few rounds in the locker near the gun, the rest had to be manhandled through the boat so obviously the first few rounds are going to be quicker.

B. Like stated earlier in the post sea state played a vital part in how efficient the crew could load the gun.

C. Due to limitations in the game the GWX team have to figure out an average for all conditions for the loading time, they chose a middle ground which is not bad if you ask me.:up:

[Fluffysheap]

Other thing to wonder is if the frame rate of the video matches the frame rate it was shot at. With old film often unusual frame rates were used and sometimes in the conversion to modern video formats the route of expediency is taken over accuracy. Even converting from film format to PAL (50Hz TV used in Europe and some other places) often causes about a 5% speed up and this is when converting between two modern formats that are widely used!

[Sgtmonkeynads]

I learned that a long time ago. Thats why when watching converted films that were taken with the old hand crank type cameras, W.W. I. era and some latter, it seems like everyone is walking realy fast and kind of twitchy. I't looks cool though whenever the crank speed matches the speed of a propeller or something spinning, the strobe effect starts and it seems to switch directions in an instant.

The film you guys are talking about though, the guys are not as twitchy as the might be if the film had not been converted right. To me it appears to be an accurate speed to load. They did practice, alot.

[Freiwillige]

Yea after watching the people move I think the movie is in time and not running fast.

[Jimbuna]

And thus, it begins (or more accurately, returns)...

Rgr that http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/pirate.gif

[Sailor Steve]

There are no cuts. I watched and re-watched and there are zero cuts in that film.
SAY WHAT???

There are nothing BUT cuts in that film! 0.07: The gun fires. 0.08: CUT to a shell hitting the ship. 0.10: CUT to the gun firing (which looks like it could be a repeat of the same scene). 0.11: CUT to the gun being reloaded. 0.13: CUT to a different reloading scene. 0.14: CUT to the burning ship, and a shell being fired which falls way short. 0.18: CUT to a scene of shell splashes in the open ocean, apparently being fired AT the uboat, followed by a slow pan to the deck gun, and then the gun fires. 0.24: CUT to a close-up of the gun crew doing their thing. 0.25: CUT to the gun captain giving the "Fire!" order. 0.25 again: CUT to the target ship being straddled and hit by what looks like a whole lot of shrapnel. 0.29: CUT to a different scene of the gun firing from just out of the right side with the target framed in the middle. 0.30: CUT to the target apparently sinking, still being shot at, followed by the gun firing. 0.36: CUT to the gun firing again, and it looks like it could be another repeat of the first scene. 0.36 again: CUT to a close up of a ship being hit. 0.37: CUT to the kaleun signalling his approval of the shooting results. 0.40: CUT to a different shot of Herr Kaleun. 0.41: CUT to a shot of the stern going down.

No cuts? I count 17 separate film shots in 43 seconds, separated by 16 cuts.

Actually Starting at 25 seconds It fires THREE TIMES before the 33 second mark!:o:salute:

Thats a staggering three shots in 8 seconds!

Maybe load times are faster than we thought?
If that is the standard you are using, then you could also argue that they were able to sink a merchant in just 40 seconds, using only the deck gun.

[melnibonian]

Actually Starting at 25 seconds It fires THREE TIMES before the 33 second mark!:o:salute:

Thats a staggering three shots in 8 seconds!

Maybe load times are faster than we thought?

As per the article Jim posted "The rate of fire with a good crew was 15 to 18 rounds per minute". In here we need to remember the following:

1. The sea state is vital both in terms of loading the gun and in terms of aiming accurately.

2. Crew efficiency is paramount here.

In general reloading of the gun was not too difficult as they were using a humman chain to carry the shells. Therefore the rate of one round per 4 seconds is not too strange for me.

[Jimbuna]

SAY WHAT???

There are nothing BUT cuts in that film! 0.07: The gun fires. 0.08: CUT to a shell hitting the ship. 0.10: CUT to the gun firing (which looks like it could be a repeat of the same scene). 0.11: CUT to the gun being reloaded. 0.13: CUT to a different reloading scene. 0.14: CUT to the burning ship, and a shell being fired which falls way short. 0.18: CUT to a scene of shell splashes in the open ocean, apparently being fired AT the uboat, followed by a slow pan to the deck gun, and then the gun fires. 0.24: CUT to a close-up of the gun crew doing their thing. 0.25: CUT to the gun captain giving the "Fire!" order. 0.25 again: CUT to the target ship being straddled and hit by what looks like a whole lot of shrapnel. 0.29: CUT to a different scene of the gun firing from just out of the right side with the target framed in the middle. 0.30: CUT to the target apparently sinking, still being shot at, followed by the gun firing. 0.36: CUT to the gun firing again, and it looks like it could be another repeat of the first scene. 0.36 again: CUT to a close up of a ship being hit. 0.37: CUT to the kaleun signalling his approval of the shooting results. 0.40: CUT to a different shot of Herr Kaleun. 0.41: CUT to a shot of the stern going down.

No cuts? I count 17 separate film shots in 43 seconds, separated by 16 cuts.


If that is the standard you are using, then you could also argue that they were able to sink a merchant in just 40 seconds, using only the deck gun.

:03:

[Rasher]

Hi Jimbuna

Check your messages mate, Sorry if if I appear pushy:DL

Just cant find that file. Cheers

Rasher

[Hartmann]

It´s a propaganda video, a movie with cuts and not in real time,

For example another mounted gun fire scene from the movie " a bridge too far"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCBHtf4hYWQ

Or a real artillery fire

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBjGyt0Ga9Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imwWvjEubv8&feature=related

[Subnuts]

It's not like the Nazis had a massive propaganda apparatus which could distort reality and manipulate the masses with ease, right?

[Freiwillige]

Alright! Between 24 seconds and 33 seconds when the three shots are fired there are no cuts!!!

You can tell this by the back ground smoke flowing very smoothly across the scene, No jumps, nothing sporadic, Just clear footage .

If you read my post above I stated that due to variable situations GWX got it right within the limitations of the Game.

[Freiwillige]

It's not like the Nazis had a massive propaganda apparatus which could distort reality and manipulate the masses with ease, right?

Every and I mean every major country that fought in WWII was guilty of that.

[Jimbuna]

Hi Jimbuna

Check your messages mate, Sorry if if I appear pushy:DL

Just cant find that file. Cheers

Rasher

Sorry, but I had an earlyish night....I've now responded http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/thumbsup.gif

[Lt.Fillipidis]

It's not like the Nazis had a massive propaganda apparatus which could distort reality and manipulate the masses with ease, right?

Not that it was far from reality. :shucks:

[Sailor Steve]

Alright! Between 24 seconds and 33 seconds when the three shots are fired there are no cuts!!!

You can tell this by the back ground smoke flowing very smoothly across the scene, No jumps, nothing sporadic, Just clear footage.
Looking at it again, you may be right. However, there is nothing to indicate where the footage was shot. Film cameras at the time were very large and clunky, and would be difficult to set up in a combat situation. There is every chance that it was a training excersize, under near-perfect conditions. No one has ever argued that under those conditions the gun couldn't be fired every four seconds - it could. The game doesn't allow for deterioration of performance, so it is possible to set the gun to fire that fast in a hurricane.

We've been having this discussion for four years now, and it will never be resolved until the game can be made to account for all the variables.

[Platapus]

I fully believe that the deck gun could be fired that quickly..... as long as you are not aiming at anything. Many weapons can be used quickly if accuracy is not important.

So while there may not have been any cuts during the firing, there were cuts showing some gun fire at the target. Whether the target films were taken anywhere near where the shooting film was taken I can't tell.

I would think the largest amount of time spent firing the gun would have been spent aiming and waiting for the target to line up.

[Freiwillige]

@Sailor Steve, Actually the Germans had the advantage with cameras and in WWII they used a very nice and compact shoulder cam similar in size to what hollywood uses today. Ill dig more up on it if you want, its interesting.

@Platapus. Your right the loaders can load as fast as they want but the gunner decides when to fire! But I am sure with calm seas and short range and a well fed crew it could be average to fire quickly, unfortunately the game has limitations so the ocean is anything but average in its situations.