U-boat torpedo almost hits tanker 63 years after fired at the HMS Royal Oak!

[Freiwillige]

Taken from U-47.org


Prien's Ghost?

The story of the attack by U-47 at Scapa flow did not end on the fateful day in October 1939; as recently as September 2002, almost 63 years after the event, Prien and his boat were in the news again following the rather bizarre discovery of one its torpedoes by the Norwegian tanker MV Petrotrym. The following extract is taken from The Scottish Banner, a paper published in the United States for Scottish expatriates:
"TORPEDO" - Scapa Flow, Orkneys: An oil tanker recently had a narrow escape when it was nearly hit by a German torpedo - fired 63 years ago! The missile was one of four launched by submarine U-47 to scupper the battleship 'Royal Oak' in 1939 resulting in the loss of 833 lives.
Even though it failed to hit its target, the torpedo has lain on the seabed ever since, until it recently resurfaced in the dark waters of Scapa Flow and started to drift towards the 62,000 ton Norwegian tanker 'Petrotrym' , which was at anchor. Fortunately an attentive watchman noticed the barnacle-encrusted missile and raised the alarm in time.
The 15 foot torpedo was towed away by a tug to safe waters a mile away where it was detonated by a Royal Navy bomb disposal unit. Although its warhead was missing, the Navy said that it posed a genuine threat as it still contained its chamber of compressed gas.
(Thanks to Allan F. Cameron for submitting this article)
Following the removal of the torpedo to Scapa Pier on 9 September, Captain Nigel Mills, the Director of Orkney Island Council's Harbours Department, offered the following explanation for its sudden reappearance:
"It is difficult to state at this point exactly why this object decided to surface now. We did have an exceptionally low tide on Monday and it is possible that this disturbed the torpedo and allowed it to surface. Compressed air within a chamber inside the torpedo can force them to the surface in the way this one apparently did".
(Details from the Orkney Islands Council (http://www.orkney.gov.uk/) web site)
While the surfacing of the torpedo can be explained in purely scientific terms, its sudden reappearance in Scapa Flow over sixty years afterwards was remarkable. Might it indeed have been Prien's ghost, shouting defiantly from the depths?

[Rhodes]

:oTalk about german engineering!

[August]

Technically it's still a miss! :DL

[SteamWake]

This is the second time Ive heard this story and not sure I believe all the details. One 'hole' in the story that makes me scratch my head is this sentance.


The 15 foot torpedo was towed away by a tug to safe waters a mile away where it was detonated by a Royal Navy bomb disposal unit. Although its warhead was missing


So... uhhh... what happened to its warhead?

[Jimbuna]

This is the second time Ive heard this story and not sure I believe all the details. One 'hole' in the story that makes me scratch my head is this sentance.



So... uhhh... what happened to its warhead?

Fell off as a result of excessive corrosion maybe :hmmm:

[SteamWake]

Fell off as a result of excessive corrosion maybe :hmmm:

So the biggest threat was a hot run... pretty unlikely after 30 some years. Why blow the thing up? It would have made a nice musieum piece.

[nikimcbee]

:o Crazy! What did they do with the torpedo again? That's a great historical find!

[Freiwillige]

This is the second time Ive heard this story and not sure I believe all the details. One 'hole' in the story that makes me scratch my head is this sentance.



So... uhhh... what happened to its warhead?

Could have hit its target and failed to detonate damaging the torp.

Could have lodged in the mud and the current broke the torpedo off of the warhead.

Could have rusted the warhead retaining bolts right off.

I remember a few years back the Navy found a Japanese long lance torpedo
stuck in the mud outside of pearl harbor and its warhead was barely hanging on and still live!

[OneToughHerring]

Might it indeed have been Prien's ghost, shouting defiantly from the depths?

Yes. A little reminder for those treacherous Norwegians.

So the biggest threat was a hot run... pretty unlikely after 30 some years. Why blow the thing up? It would have made a nice musieum piece.

My thoughts exactly.

[stabiz]

Huh?

[Cohaagen]

Good thing we have amateur internet enthusiasts who know better than the world's most experienced EOD technicans...otherwise I just heck-darn wouldn't know what to think.

Might it indeed have been Prien's ghost, shouting defiantly from the depths?The only "ghosts" that may be around there are the hundreds who were killed on Royal Oak that night. I don't really care where Prien is. Shouting defiantly with all the Japanese submariners and kamikazes, perhaps.

EDIT: a better headline would have been "U-boat torpedo almost hits tanker...7 years ago!"

[SteamWake]

world's most experienced EOD technicans...


Now whom would that be?

[Cohaagen]

Probably the people who spent 30 years defusing countless types of conventional and improvised munitions in Northern Ireland, who invented the remote-control EOD robot (Wheelbarrow, etc.), remote EOD cameras, EOD technician body armour (Hunting Engineering), who propped up the USN when they couldn't provide a proper mine-hunter force for GW1 and GW2 (Commodore Chris Craig, RN MCMV), etc. Yeah, that'd be them. UK Plc, I mean.

[GoldenRivet]

So the biggest threat was a hot run...

Compressed gas can prove explosive under the proper circumstances.

when you find an old explosive - even if it is missing its warhead - the best practice is usually to destroy it.

im sure they considered the pros and cons of gutting it and putting it in a museum - and decided the cons outweighed the pros and blew it up.

[SteamWake]

When in doubt blow stuff up :yeah:

BTW what makes them think this is one of Prien's fish? Surely there were others fired in this area.

[OneToughHerring]

When in doubt blow stuff up :yeah:

BTW what makes them think this is one of Prien's fish? Surely there were others fired in this area.

Maybe it had "To Churchill, with love. - Prien" written on it.

[GoldenRivet]

So far as history is aware... there was only one successful U-boat attack on Scapa Flow.

it seems logical to assume that it was one of Prien's torpedoes.

in all probability - it was one of his torpedoes, however possible that it belonged to another boat or plane.

[Cohaagen]

When in doubt blow stuff up :yeah:

BTW what makes them think this is one of Prien's fish? Surely there were others fired in this area.

When in doubt...blow everything up :DL. Looks fun, anyway.

Scapa Flow was always the fleet's protected anchorage, so I'm pretty sure they never used torpedoes there. Loch Long was the RN main torpedo range from the 1910s until the end of the Cold War (there are still derelict shoreside facilities there). Besides, G7 torpedoes must be pretty distinguishable, no matter how encrusted, to those whose job it is to destroy them - there are still lots of legacy WWII German munitions in and around the UK that are disposed of in controlled detonations right to this day, and will be well into the future.

In any case, I don't think the museum at Lyness needs any more reminders of the Royal Oak. They've got lots there already.

[August]

Maybe a torp from one of the scuttled German imperial fleet?

[Cohaagen]

Maybe a torp from one of the scuttled German imperial fleet?

Good call, but as I remember the Imperial Fleet had to disarm their weapons before handing themselves over under the terms of the Armistice. Their batteries had essential components removed from their breeches, etc., and were inspected after arriving at Scapa. The scuttled fleet was almost totally salvaged in the 20s and 30s, I can't imagine them missing something like that.

It must be one of Prien's. It's either that, or an RN practice torpedo in an area they never practised in.

[SteamWake]

Good call, but as I remember the Imperial Fleet had to disarm their weapons before handing themselves over under the terms of the Armistice. Their batteries had essential components removed from their breeches, etc., and were inspected after arriving at Scapa. The scuttled fleet was almost totally salvaged in the 20s and 30s, I can't imagine them missing something like that.

It must be one of Prien's. It's either that, or an RN practice torpedo in an area they never practised in.

Catch it ! CATCH I ! .... kerplunk... :oops:

Ummm errr okay we have 9 torpedos instead of 10 got it ;)

[FIREWALL]

:roll:With it destroyed we'll never know. Thx Experts. :roll:

[SteamWake]

:roll:With it destroyed we'll never know. Thx Experts. :roll:

After 30 years immersed in the ocean you would have a tough time finding out anyhow. Any identifying marks are long gone and the whole thing was probably encrusted with barnicales and such.

Kind of supprissing it would float after all that.

Wonder if the warhead is still stuck in the mud. :06:

[Jimbuna]

After 30 years immersed in the ocean you would have a tough time finding out anyhow. Any identifying marks are long gone and the whole thing was probably encrusted with barnicales and such.

Kind of supprissing it would float after all that.

Wonder if the warhead is still stuck in the mud. :06:

I really can't imagine them going to the bother of searching for it.....in these days of budget cuts :nope:

[Freiwillige]

Actually it is quite easy to tell what kind of torpedo it is. Its propeller, tailfin, diameter and any paint. All countries used their own torpedo designs and all were different. Different lengths, different weight.

It was taken to Scapa pier 9 before being towed off for destruction so I am sure the "Experts" got a look at it before deciding that boom at sea is better than boom on shore.

Also if you look at www.u47.org you can see that a few German torpedo's Prien fired were misses and duds and I can assure you that those were the only German WWII torps fired in scapa Flow

[Letum]

Good shot Prien!
Don't let the near miss bother you.

[SteamWake]

Actually it is quite easy to tell what kind of torpedo it is. Its propeller, tailfin, diameter and any paint. All countries used their own torpedo designs and all were different. Different lengths, different weight.

It was taken to Scapa pier 9 before being towed off for destruction so I am sure the "Experts" got a look at it before deciding that boom at sea is better than boom on shore.

Also if you look at www.u47.org (http://www.u47.org) you can see that a few German torpedo's Prien fired were misses and duds and I can assure you that those were the only German WWII torps fired in scapa Flow

Thing is propellor and tailfns were probably a big chunk of barnicale, coral, kelp and the like. If the tailfins were still attached at all.

Hey heres a question. Did these torpedoes use bronze probellors?

The bronze would have held up quite well I would think.

[Jimbuna]

Thing is propellor and tailfns were probably a big chunk of barnicale, coral, kelp and the like. If the tailfins were still attached at all.

Hey heres a question. Did these torpedoes use bronze probellors?

The bronze would have held up quite well I would think.

I doubt it...but the propellors may have been bronze and may have held up quite well :O:

j/k...sorry, couldn't resist :up:

[FIREWALL]

On second thought, I can see why the brit RN would want to quickly blow it up and let the news die.

[Jimbuna]

On second thought, I can see why the brit RN would want to quickly blow it up and let the news die.

I honestly don't think that would be the case.....tis common knowledge who prevailed in the end.

I think this decision was taken in good faith after considering the safety of locals in the vicinity and the possibility of a mishap then the ensuing criticism for not dealing with a potentially hazardous situation effectively.

[FIREWALL]

Nuclear weapons have been recovered with less concern.

[SteamWake]

Nuclear weapons have been recovered with less concern.

Yea but they dont have a wet steam generator waiting to pop off.

Wait a minute... if this was a torpedo fired in action, what led them to believe it still had a propellent charge in it?

I mean wouldent it have spent its propellent already?

[Arclight]

Ehr, wasn't Prien carrying only electric torpedoes?

And am I the only one thinking the thing surfaced because the warhead separated? :doh:

[SteamWake]

Ehr, wasn't Prien carrying only electric torpedoes?

And am I the only one thinking the thing surfaced because the warhead separated? :doh:

The article stated that the device was destroyed as it still contained 'compressed gas' :shifty:

[Arclight]

So? :-?

I'm claiming they're wrong since Prien only carried electric torpedoes.

[UnderseaLcpl]

I'm concerned about where you got the information that Prien carried only electrics on that mission, Arclight. I could probably look it up myself, but it would be easier if you would be so gracious as to tell me. I don't doubt your idea, but I'd like to check your references and verify your claim for myself.

Honestly, I'm a little surprised that the torpedo (electric or gas) would surface at all. IIRC, the gas torpedoes suffered from a leak in the pressure chamber that caused them to run too deep, and one can only assume that such a leak would be exacerbated by so many years of exposure to salt water and pressure. Electric torpedoes are (I would assume), less buoyant, by virtue of the weight and size of their lead-acid batteries.

I really don't know what to make of it.

[Arclight]

Actually, the site about U-47 linked earlier in this thread mentiones as much:
Adorned with a makeshift conning tower emblem mocking the British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain and armed with a full complement of the new G7e electric wakeless torpedoes, U-47 gently moved out from its base at Kiel on 8 October. Prien took a carefully-considered route to the Orkneys - lying on the bottom during daytime and keeping radio silence. The mission had been planned with the highest level of security, to the point where Dönitz had transmitted the details to Raeder by word of mouth, and by 4 October all other U-boats operating around the Orkneys had been withdrawn from the area. As Prien and his crew slowly made their way towards their target, it is highly likely those in the higher German chain of command were oblivious to the monumental task that had been set in motion.

http://www.u47.org/english/u47_sca.asp

* U-boat.net seems to back it up:

12:58...Impact firing. The boat lurched as one, two, three ton-and-a-half G7e torpedoes went overboard on blasts of compressed air, electric motors winding up, accelerating toward 30 knots. U-47’s hydrophone operator called, "Torpedoes on their way."

http://www.uboat.net/ops/scapa_flow.htm

[UnderseaLcpl]

Thanks, Arclight. I assume that U-boat.net has pretty solid info regarding whether or not Prien carried only electrics on his boat, given the nature of most of the info I find there, so I trust your citations. Furthermore, I don't think that an electric torpedo battery or motor relay would survive for that long in those kinds of conditions.

I don't know either way, but something seems odd about one of Prien's torpedoes surfacing after all this time. I'll need to look into it some more and do some reading on annual natural sediment deposits/removal in Scapa Flow before I can really form an opinion, but this whole idea seems odd to me.

Thanks again for the info. :salute:

[Arclight]

Aye, no problem. And I agree that for what seemed a relatively straight forward (though remarkable) story at first, something seems off the more you think about it. :hmmm:

Some similar stories here (http://www.weymouthlunarsociety.org.uk/torpedoes.htm). I'm starting to think it was either a British or German wet-heater. Beats me how it got there though. At any rate, I really doubt it was one of the torpedoes that was fired by, and failed on, Günther Prien. :-?

* Another tidbit:

Kaplt. Prien was specially chosen as suitable to carry out the operation, personally briefed by Dönitz, and given carte blanche in the matter of tactical procedure. The attack was to be made if possible on the night of 13th/14th October, as on this date both low tides occurred during the hours of darkness, and it was new moon at this period. Dönitz states that U-47 was to carry torpedoes (“G.7 e”) only, it being decided to use torpedoes instead of mines, as by this means, in case of a hit, there was a greater likelihood of achieving a successful result.
http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-47RoyalOak.htm

[Wolfehunter]

:oTalk about german engineering!:o No kidding.. :salute:

[SteamWake]

Yup like I said the first time I heard this story, something is just not right.

They probably blew up a telephone pole for all we know :D