Japanese Subs

[DigitalAura]

I'm surprised that all the emphasis in the Silent Hunter series has been American and German only.... I actually expected SH5 to consider other countries (namely Japan) in gameplay. Any thoughts to why there was never any consideration for this? I've always loved the differences in German and American subs, and would be interested to see how the Japanese versions would play.... :06:

[Armistead]

No real drama with japanese subs to push that market, why you see many games with japanese surface ships.

Mod's will be your only hope for a sub.

[Torplexed]

To have an entertaining game with Japanese subs it would have to be somewhat ahistorical in nature. Overall, the large Japanese submarine fleet is credited with sinking 184 merchant ships of 907,000 GRT. That's pretty sad stacked up to the Germans (2,840 ships of 14.3 million GRT), the Americans (1,079 ships of 4.65 million tons), and the British (493 ships of 1.52 million tons) Japanese doctrine emphasized saving torpedoes for attacking warships, even if that meant letting a merchant pass and warships are a much rarer target. Then there was the whole dismal concept that evolved by early 1943 of using submarines as cargo ships to resupply by-passed Japanese garrisons...submarines without torpedoes to make room for supplies. That was the primary job of half the Japanese sub fleet by war's end.

Another problem is research. There are no surviving I-Boats and decent plans, photos and blueprints for the interiors are hard to find.

[Webster]

peabody and keltos01 are working on IJN subs and an entire japanese campaign mod for the game so check out their threads :up:

[WIP] Japanese Campaign (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=141869)

[REL] I-Boat Damage Mod (IBDM) v 1.0 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=151504)

New Jyunsen B, Type AM, Kaidai and Kaichu mod version 3.7 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=137761)

[DigitalAura]

@ Torplexed... I see your point, and it makes good sense, however I don't think anyone's getting anything close to historic in any campaign even on hard mode. (concerning tonnage that is)

I would simply enjoy the unique play of a Japanese sub. I wouldn't really care about the authenticity of historical sub usage by the Japanese... I'd tend to see it as a "what-if" campaign. I'd even love to play as Russian and British forces!

@ WEBSTER.... suh-weeeet! :D

[kstanb]

peabody and keltos01 are working on IJN subs and an entire japanese campaign mod for the game so check out their threads :up:

Which is probably the MOD I am most looking forward to hear about... even if it is ahistorical, it will definitively be fun

[Webster]

peabody said he could use some help guys so if you have skills or just time to do testing send him and keltos01 a PM and see what you can cintribute :up:

[GerritJ9]

Surprisingly, SH4 v1.5 seems to have the slots for adding three more nations, which would neatly cover the three other navies that operated subs in the Far East/Pacific: IJN, RN and RNethN. This was briefly discussed in another topic some time ago, will check which one and post a link. Unfortunately, activating this probably requires code work so it doesn't seem to be a simple matter of adding relevant files labelled "JP", "GB" or "NL". In other words, that's something only the developers can do- BUMMER! Pity, really- all they would have to do is activate the slots for the extra nations and the commumity's modders would do the rest: adding subs, campaigns, speech packs etc etc. Hopefully, SH5 will allow such expansion.

[GerritJ9]

The brief discussion about possibly adding playable nations can be found on this page:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=141869&page=11
Perhaps this discussion should be revived?

[DigitalAura]

okay, wow... I didn't realize that the IJN mod was well underway!
Superb!

What can you all tell me about the IJN sub characteristics and other cool info... I love that they were told only to shoot warships! WOW. Did they have inferior/superior submarines? Torpedoes? Crew management? How did their ROE differ?
I imagine they were also plagued with poor resources, but I'm curious to know how these things compared.

I read that Calvert encountered many of these subs in his patrols, so I know there were plenty of 'em out there! :o

[nikimcbee]

To have an entertaining game with Japanese subs it would have to be somewhat ahistorical in nature. Overall, the large Japanese submarine fleet is credited with sinking 184 merchant ships of 907,000 GRT. That's pretty sad stacked up to the Germans (2,840 ships of 14.3 million GRT), the Americans (1,079 ships of 4.65 million tons), and the British (493 ships of 1.52 million tons) Japanese doctrine emphasized saving torpedoes for attacking warships, even if that meant letting a merchant pass and warships are a much rarer target. Then there was the whole dismal concept that evolved by early 1943 of using submarines as cargo ships to resupply by-passed Japanese garrisons...submarines without torpedoes to make room for supplies. That was the primary job of half the Japanese sub fleet by war's end.

Another problem is research. There are no surviving I-Boats and decent plans, photos and blueprints for the interiors are hard to find.

I think a limited 1942~43 campaign would be cool; IE Guadalcanal, Indian Ocean, US West coast. Another down side of playing Japanese subs is that they weren't that good to begin with. They were fast and had awesome endurance, but that's pretty much all of it. You would definatly be the underdog.

[DigitalAura]

fast + endurance... tell me again why they weren't that good? :hmmm:

[Webster]

fast + endurance... tell me again why they weren't that good? :hmmm:

i would guess he was refering to their survivability

i dont know about the subs but japans planes werent able to sustain much damage

[Dread Knot]

The major flaw with Japanese subs was depth and manuverability underwater. The reason Japanese DDs set their depth charges for a maxiumum of 200 feet early in the war was that was about as deep as their own subs could go, and they didn't think any nations subs could go deeper. (The Japanese had a rather inflated and insular opinion of their equipment.)

[Torplexed]

What can you all tell me about the IJN sub characteristics and other cool info... I love that they were told only to shoot warships! WOW. Did they have inferior/superior submarines? Torpedoes? Crew management? How did their ROE differ?
I imagine they were also plagued with poor resources, but I'm curious to know how these things compared.

Japanese submarines employed the best torpedoes available during the Second World War. The Type 95 torpedo used pure oxygen to burn kerosene, instead of the compressed air and alcohol used in other nation's torpedoes. This gave them about three times the range of their Allied counterparts, and also reduced their wake, making them harder to notice and avoid.

However, compared to German submarines, Japan's larger boats were relatively easy to sight visually and with radar, were notoriously slow divers and sluggish to maneuver underwater. They were easy to track on sonar, and easy to hit. Japanese hulls weren't built as stoutly as those of German U-boats, and therefore could not dive as deeply nor survive such rough treatment. Also, they lacked radar until the first sets were installed in June 1944, and never had sets as good as the Allies possessed.

Given their good range, speed, and torpedoes, Japanese submarines achieved surprisingly little. This was because they were mainly employed against warships, which were fast, maneuverable, and well-defended when compared to merchant ships. Japanese naval doctrine was built around the concept of fighting a single decisive battle, as they had done at Tsushima 40 years earlier. They thought of their submarines as scouts, whose main role was to locate, shadow, and attrit Allied naval task forces. This approach gave a significant return in 1942 when they sank two fleet carriers, one cruiser, and a few destroyers and other warships, and also damaged two battleships, one fleet carrier (twice), and a cruiser. However, as Allied intelligence, technologies, methods, and numbers improved, the Japanese submarines were never again able to achieve this frequency of success.

Compounding these deficiencies, Japan was at war with the United States and the United Kingdom, two nations embroiled in a vast conflict with hundreds of more nimble U-Boats in the Atlantic, and hence two nations which poured lavish resources into anti-submarine warfare (ASW) research and development. The result was that the large, shallow diving Japanese subs took a beating when they faced these Atlantic-tested technological advantages in the Pacific.

I think a limited 1942~43 campaign would be cool; IE Guadalcanal, Indian Ocean, US West coast.

A strike on Hollywood would be in order as well. ;)

http://pyxis.homestead.com/1941.jpg

[G2B]

:har: They sank our Ferris Wheel :har:


I was surprised and a little bummed that you could not play for the IJN, What a challenge that would be. Well worth the effort of putting it together.


Mission 1

7 December 1941

Slip into Pearl Harbour and deliver your torpedoes to any Capital Ships found, if you return we may give you a bigger boat. :yeah:

[Torplexed]

One peculiar aspect of the Imperial Japanese Navy's submarine force was it's widespread use of aircraft launched from submarines. Other navies experimented with this, but only the Japanese pursued it with such energy. These float planes expanded the scouting range of the sub, and in theory allowed them to reconnoiter enemy ports. One was even used to carry out the only aerial bombing of the continental United States in World War Two near Brookings, Oregon in September 1942.

If the Japanese had ever turned their subs completely loose on shipping they would have been quite an advantage. Sure beats that tethered helicopter the Germans experimented with.

[nikimcbee]

i would guess he was refering to their survivability

i dont know about the subs but japans planes werent able to sustain much damage

Bingo. Many of their designs were still rivited instead of welded, which ment they could only dive to about 200 feet.:o Plus they had no clue about radar until the very end, Just ask the USS England:rock:. Plus the living conditions:o. Plus their huge size makes them an easy sonar target.

[nikimcbee]

But their main failure was their tactics. They never paid attention to what the Germans did in WWI, but were stubbornly adhearent to their Mahanian naval doctrine (subs are scouts). oh well, better luck next time.:D

[keltos01]

http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/5120/typea1.jpg (http://img96.imageshack.us/i/typea1.jpg/)


I never noticed there was an alternate IJN sub discussion thread !

Come see us at the Japanese Campaign Mod "Climb Mount Niitaka" :

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=141869


my IJN subs thread :

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=137761

the campaign mod is acoming !

we have quite a few subs ready and are working on the JB2, JB3 A1 and C3 class atm.

keltos

[arfail19]

nice work where is a download link

[arfail19]

if no one woud care thanks if you do

[TBear]

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=137761

there you go :) join the daaaaaaark siiiiide.......:arrgh!::salute: