Laws of War and other novice questions

[Kavok]

Good evening all, it's a pleasure to be here.

I recently picked up a copy of SHIII and started playing - though I did occasionally sit in with my former housemate during a few sorties of his earlier in the year. I'm in the middle of a campaign in vanilla SHIII, which I started in a Type II in 1939 and now up to a Type VIIC, moved from Wilhelmshaven to Brest. It's currently July 1941 and I'm a Senior Lieutenant. My last patrol was fairly typical: 1xT2, 2xC3 and 3xC2, which is roughly my average.

I did have a couple of starter questions for the group so I hope you won't mind my plunging right in.

- Relative silence at various engine speeds is the first one. Just how much louder am I at silent running going ahead slow than I am all stop? It seems a lot quieter to me - so I generally only get underway once the pinging starts.

- I've a bit of beef with the neutrality rules. Now please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm certain that neutral ships under escort by warships of one belligerent are fair game for other belligerents. I attacked a convoy in April and a loose torpedo slipped past the target and ploughed into an American T3; costing me a huge amount of renown. Firstly - am I right - and secondly is there anything I can do about it in game?

- I took down a Passenger Liner (ohhhhh yes!) and a troop 'sport in a big, heavily escorted convoy about one gird box due west of the centre of Ireland last time out; how common are troop convoys in this area?

- I'm on about 5500 renown and eyeing both my next promotion and a nice big Type IXC. If I transfer (maybe to 10th flotilla - they have the boats I'm looking for), does it cost me any renown? Secondly, I presume I'll have to give up my Type VIIC but is it possible I'll get "stuck" with insufficient renown to upgrade my boat but no boat for myself? Or do I 'take my VIIC with me' to the new flotilla?

More questions to follow as I discover them...!

(I should also say I've downloaded a copy of the latest GWX, although I'm "training" on vanilla until I get killed [or BdU find someone better] on my current career, then I'll push on up.)

Ta, KvK

[Sailor Steve]

WELCOME ABOARD!:sunny:

Relative silence at various engine speeds is the first one. Just how much louder am I at silent running going ahead slow than I am all stop? It seems a lot quieter to me - so I generally only get underway once the pinging starts.
Real life: It was almost impossible to stop while submerged. Balancing the boat while in a combat situation was even harder, so they had to deal with the keep moving problem.

In-game: Are you playing at a fairly easy level? The Stealth Meter will tell you how much noise you're making at any given speed. Silent Running helps a lot.

I've a bit of beef with the neutrality rules. Now please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm certain that neutral ships under escort by warships of one belligerent are fair game for other belligerents. I attacked a convoy in April and a loose torpedo slipped past the target and ploughed into an American T3; costing me a huge amount of renown. Firstly - am I right - and secondly is there anything I can do about it in game?
That's a problem with SH3. If you go into the Data/Cfg folder and open up Basic (or is it Main?), right near the top are the text lines to edit Renown. I changed Neutrals to 0 (the stock is -1) to represent not being penalized, but certainly not getting credit for sinking a neutral ship. I also changed Friendly (or Axis) from -10 to -1, as there were some friendly sinking incidents and they almost always involved the sunken ship being where he wasn't supposed to be, so the u-boat kaleun was exonerated of all charges.

Sorry if I'm a little vague on the location, but I have to post from the library so I can't just look at the file for the correct one.

I took down a Passenger Liner (ohhhhh yes!) and a troop 'sport in a big, heavily escorted convoy about one gird box due west of the centre of Ireland last time out; how common are troop convoys in this area?
The traffic in the stock game is way to heavy - you can find good targets almost anywhere. For a more realistic experience try one of the supermods.

I'm on about 5500 renown and eyeing both my next promotion and a nice big Type IXC. If I transfer (maybe to 10th flotilla - they have the boats I'm looking for), does it cost me any renown? Secondly, I presume I'll have to give up my Type VIIC but is it possible I'll get "stuck" with insufficient renown to upgrade my boat but no boat for myself? Or do I 'take my VIIC with me' to the new flotilla?
I can't help you there. I never use renown to buy a new boat, as I can't believe I would ever be that lucky.

GWX will serve you well. Also get SH3 Commander, which will revolutionize the way you think about the game. It's not a mod, and it works with any of the supermods.

[sergei]

Welcome Captain :salute:

Sailor Steve is correct. It is the Basic.cfg that needs to be edited.
I changed it from -1 to 0 too. So you won't get punished, but won't get rewarded either.
I figure that the wasted torpedoes, and wasted time and effort I put into the attack is punishment enough!
In the interior view are a couple of gauges that show your RPM. I like to stay between 50-100 rpm when being hunted. You may have to manually set your speed to 1 or 2 knots to achieve this, rather that using the Ahead Slow command.

[Kavok]

OK, thank you for the tips!

[Jimbuna]

Welcome aboard Kavok http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/welcome.gif

Achieving 1 knot (manually) is a must, as well as selecting the silent running mode if you want to remain as quiet as possible.

One small consideration though.........try whenever possible to be at your required depth before selecting the 1 knot speed because it will take an eternity even if at all possible to manage your depth in a timely fashion at such a slow speed.

[flakmonkey]

- I'm on about 5500 renown and eyeing both my next promotion and a nice big Type IXC. If I transfer (maybe to 10th flotilla - they have the boats I'm looking for), does it cost me any renown? Secondly, I presume I'll have to give up my Type VIIC but is it possible I'll get "stuck" with insufficient renown to upgrade my boat but no boat for myself? Or do I 'take my VIIC with me' to the new flotilla?


Im pretty sure it doesnt cost you renown to transfer, you can only transfer a limited number of times though (i havent played stock for a long time so im not 100% on this.)
+ yes you will take your current boat to your new flotilla.

[Laufen zum Ziel]

Welcome aboard.

[Pacific_Ace]

"Now please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm certain that neutral ships under escort by warships of one belligerent are fair game for other belligerents. "

Consider this your correction. :)
You are wrong and that kind of attitude in the war would have quickly cost a U-Boat captain his command and quite possibly his life. Hitler was not out to engage the whole world in a war...not at once any way. He went to great pains in the early days to try and keep Britain out of the war for instance.
One of the great mysteries of the war is why he choose to declare war on the US after Pearl Harbor after spending two years trying to keep us out of it by giving us no excuses to declare against him despite the fact that the US was helping both the UK and Russia with materiel. The terms of the Tripartite pact only required Germany to declare war on any aggressor of its members and Japan was the aggressor, not the US.

[Kavok]

Well yes, obviously there are a number of huge political imperitives why not to do it - and again, I'm perfectly aware German high command would not accept such attacks.

However, I'm making a legal point and a technical one. Sensible: No, but Legal: Yes?

[Sailor Steve]

I think you are right on the legality bit, but not entirely. The original idea was to stop neutral ships and inspect their papers. If they were carrying materials bound for an enemy country then they were indeed fair game. Of course with escorted convoys and armed merchants this quickly became impractical. If a neutral convoy happened to have an enemy escort it was probably considered off limits, but then why would they have an enemy escort?

The likelihood was of the ocassional neutral ship appearing in an enemy convoy, in which case they were indeed a valid target. Would the captain recieve a tonnage credit for the sinking? The tonnage would be noted, as well as the neutrality of the sunken ship.

I would say the zero-sum tonnage for neutrals is probably the best idea for the game.

[Snestorm]

Any ship sailing in convoy, with the exception of a few neutral convoys consisting primarily of ships from the scandiavian countries, were fair game. Any ship entering the declared zone, with the exception of well marked and lit irish ships, were fair game. Eventualy any ship coming from Scandinavia, to be ascertained on a course to England, was fair game. (See uboat.net Schepke. He was hailed as an Ace in Germany for sinking ships mostly hailing from Denmark, Norway, and Sweden. Not one of my favorite kaleuns).

The big problems kaleuns faced with neutrals, convoys, and Hitler came much later.
It wasn't the merchants that were the problem. They remained fair game.
The problem was "neutral" USN destroyers escorting enemy shipping. US warships were off limits.

To realy confound things, 50 four stack (Clemson Class) DDs were given to the RN by the USN. One beligerant navy, and one "neutral" navy, both using the same class ship.
Result: U-552 sinks USS Reuben James. (Hitler declared war a short time after, making life much easier for Kaleunt Topp).

These neutral convoys were inspired by England as much as they were by Germany.
RN policy was to stop all neutrals crossing the surface blockade, inspect their papers, then send them on to England to further "inspect" the cargo.

The "inspection" of the cargo consisted of determing exactly how much of that cargo was appsolutely essential to the destination neutral country . . . . Then auctioning off the rest before sending the vessel back on it's way.
US flagged ships were not exempt, and the US government never protested.

Always remember history and "history" are written by the winners.
Isn't it interesting how US policy changed so drasticly from 1812 to 1939?

[Kavok]

Thanks for the discussion everyone - I'm heading out on patrol again today so will modify my neutral figures.

If anyone does any legal research and finds answers, please let me know!

[Zilch]

Any ship sailing in convoy, with the exception of a few neutral convoys consisting primarily of ships from the scandiavian countries, were fair game. Any ship entering the declared zone, with the exception of well marked and lit irish ships, were fair game. Eventualy any ship coming from Scandinavia, to be ascertained on a course to England, was fair game. (See uboat.net Schepke. He was hailed as an Ace in Germany for sinking ships mostly hailing from Denmark, Norway, and Sweden. Not one of my favorite kaleuns).

The big problems kaleuns faced with neutrals, convoys, and Hitler came much later.
It wasn't the merchants that were the problem. They remained fair game.
The problem was "neutral" USN destroyers escorting enemy shipping. US warships were off limits.

To realy confound things, 50 four stack (Clemson Class) DDs were given to the RN by the USN. One beligerant navy, and one "neutral" navy, both using the same class ship.
Result: U-552 sinks USS Reuben James. (Hitler declared war a short time after, making life much easier for Kaleunt Topp).

These neutral convoys were inspired by England as much as they were by Germany.
RN policy was to stop all neutrals crossing the surface blockade, inspect their papers, then send them on to England to further "inspect" the cargo.

The "inspection" of the cargo consisted of determing exactly how much of that cargo was appsolutely essential to the destination neutral country . . . . Then auctioning off the rest before sending the vessel back on it's way.
US flagged ships were not exempt, and the US government never protested.

Always remember history and "history" are written by the winners.
Isn't it interesting how US policy changed so drasticly from 1812 to 1939?

I just finished a cool book called The Battle of the Atlantic. It did appear in some cases that a lot of what you are talking about, with the officially-neutral USN destroyers escorting UK convoys was done purposefully by FDR to kind of goad the Kriegsmarine into attacking to allow us to enter the war. This is very "conspiracy theory" way of looking at it, but it's well-known that FDR wanted very badly to enter the war to help the UK out, but the public at the time was in favor of remaining neutral. Reading between the lines, the public would have needed justification to enter the war, as was the case with WWI and the Lusitania. This may have been an effort to arrange this.

We've seen similar things before and since. Anyone remember the Cold War interceptions of bombers by NATO and the USSR? There are plenty of photos of an F-14 or F-106 flying formation with an intruding Tu-95. I'm sure there are a few of a Mig-23 trailing a B-52 on the other side. Opponents taunt one another all the time, to varying degrees. Occasionally, an impulsive shot gets fired and history changes. Lexington/Concord is a good example of this, I think.

[Snestorm]

I just finished a cool book called The Battle of the Atlantic. It did appear in some cases that a lot of what you are talking about, with the officially-neutral USN destroyers escorting UK convoys was done purposefully by FDR to kind of goad the Kriegsmarine into attacking to allow us to enter the war. This is very "conspiracy theory" way of looking at it, but it's well-known that FDR wanted very badly to enter the war to help the UK out, but the public at the time was in favor of remaining neutral. Reading between the lines, the public would have needed justification to enter the war, as was the case with WWI and the Lusitania. This may have been an effort to arrange this.

We've seen similar things before and since. Anyone remember the Cold War interceptions of bombers by NATO and the USSR? There are plenty of photos of an F-14 or F-106 flying formation with an intruding Tu-95. I'm sure there are a few of a Mig-23 trailing a B-52 on the other side. Opponents taunt one another all the time, to varying degrees. Occasionally, an impulsive shot gets fired and history changes. Lexington/Concord is a good example of this, I think.

It's not Conspiracy Theory. It's Conspiacy Fact. There is a differance.
Your on the right course. Fair winds and following seas to you, mate.

[Pacific_Ace]

"It's not Conspiracy Theory. It's Conspiacy Fact. There is a differance."

Are you insinuating that FDR 'allowed' Pearl Harbor to occur?

[Snestorm]

"It's not Conspiracy Theory. It's Conspiacy Fact. There is a differance."

Are you insinuating that FDR 'allowed' Pearl Harbor to occur?

No. We were discussing The Atlantic (SH3).
I don't recall seeing any mention of Pearl Harbor.
However, you are certainly Free to investigate the latter and draw your own conclusions.

[Zilch]

"It's not Conspiracy Theory. It's Conspiacy Fact. There is a differance."

Are you insinuating that FDR 'allowed' Pearl Harbor to occur?

I don't believe that, but I've heard it said before. That doesn't count for much, though. I've heard lots of things. ;)

[Pacific_Ace]

I'm simply curious as to what conspiracy youre referring to then, as Ive not heard one in regards to the ATO.

[Zilch]

I'm simply curious as to what conspiracy youre referring to then, as Ive not heard one in regards to the ATO.

Well, you may be able to find the book I read, it goes into the whole US neutrality thing in detail. I found a copy for $7 in a local used book shop. Once I get home I'll post the title and authors for you.

[Jimbuna]

Well, you may be able to find the book I read, it goes into the whole US neutrality thing in detail. I found a copy for $7 in a local used book shop. Once I get home I'll post the title and authors for you.

There has been a great deal of debate on the topic since the actual event, but nothing conclusive either way.

Personally speaking, I put it down to human error on the part of the circumstances as they appeared at the time.

Either way, it was a Godsend for the UK but a seriously heavy price for the loved ones of the casualties incurred.

[U2222]

Conspiracy Theories - we can argue about them for ever.
WW2, Iraq weapons of mass destruction, global terrorism etc, etc.
We will never know for sure because what our forefathers didn't want us to know was never put in, or was removed from the archives.
We do know though that a lot of innocent folk have given their lives over the years for many of these causes, and for what?
There ends my rant – it's off topic anyway

[Zilch]

We do know though that a lot of innocent folk have given their lives over the years for many of these causes, and for what?
There ends my rant – it's off topic anyway

For us to have the freedom to discuss this kind of thing openly. :salute: