Poison gas used against Berlin police

[Skybird]

During the street war on May 1st, thugs threw a british grenade at the police, which exuded a yelow gas. While thinking at first it was harmless, short while later police officers lost orientation, broke down, and vomitted, having been helpless. Almost half a hundred officers was affected.

Where they got that grenade, is unknown. It was from contemporary arsenals of the British, it is no "survivor"of WWII.

It is a worrying incident, imo, because since quite some time we see a dramatic decline in inhibitions of physically attacking the police, which more and more often becomes the hunted not only during riots, but also in ordinary street patrols. The level of violance and readiness to use it is rapidly growing. Considering that half a hundred officers were left helpless and depended on help and protection by collegues, this could easily lead to a situation where during the next "Straßenfest" several policemen will be left dead in the streets.

http://www.morgenpost.de/berlin/article1173227/Berliner_Polizisten_wurden_mit_Giftgas_angegriffen .html

The police union accuses politicians of having known the event that now became published since longer, and also to have known that the gas was doing harm to the officer's health - but they did not inform them nevertheless, and left the victims of the gas attack to themselves.

The number and size of no-go areas in Berlin have increased, I read and hear from other sources - the police refuses to go there even when being called in as long as they do not get massive support by special operations squads and huge operation groups of police.

Wokring conditions for German police are constantly detoriating since years, due to the desperate budget situation. the officers are underpayed, have volumes of additonal working hours, too few patrol cars, too few officers to man them, archaic radios and constantly crashing computer systems that are said to be on the level of police conditions in Albania or worse. Parts of their equipment they need to buy themselves, many officers never get a bullet-proof vest if not investing their own money for it.

I know one man personally who quit in frustration two years ago. He said he knows districts in Germany where they even have to pay their regular training ammo themselves.

[AVGWarhawk]

Seems to me like a growing phenomenon. :hmmm:

[Freiwillige]

Terrible! This is a crime of politicians to not give police what is needed in this modern day. Hope this situation is repaired before I visit Germany. I always thought of Deutschland as a safe and modern model of contemporary Europe.

[Cohaagen]

I generally have a rule against posting in GT, because of the American political crankery, but I think you should clarify this, Skybird. I know of no weapon in the UK arsenal that could produce effects like this. White Phosphorous produces a white cloud, and Red Phosphorous - surprise - makes a red one. CN has been out of the inventory for a long time, and CS was only ever used by the army in Northern Ireland. This also produced a thin white mist. Besides, what proof do you have that the grenade was British in the first place?

police officers lost orientation, broke down, and vomittedSounds suspiciously like the effects of CS gas, used by almost all police forces worldwide. Perhaps it's a case of them not enjoying the taste of their own medicine, what?

[Shearwater]

I always thought of Deutschland as a safe and modern model of contemporary Europe.

It is. I really wouldn't worry if I were you.

As a sidenote though: Two days ago I read an interesting SPIEGEL article about the police situation in Düsseldorf. Just imagine: A city of almost 600,000 inhabitants and a police force of only 60 officers (IIRC). It's relatively calm, but only because there are very few serious crimes. If the situation blew up one day, they would indeed be pretty short on personnel to deal with the situation.

Then again, it really is a safe country, and the First of May is really an exceptional day when it comes to violent protests (even more so in Berlin, I guess).

[Skybird]

I generally have a rule against posting in GT, because of the American political crankery, but I think you should clarify this, Skybird. I know of no weapon in the UK arsenal that could produce effects like this. White Phosphorous produces a white cloud, and Red Phosphorous - surprise - makes a red one. CN has been out of the inventory for a long time, and CS was only ever used by the army in Northern Ireland. This also produced a thin white mist. Besides, what proof do you have that the grenade was British in the first place?

Sounds suspiciously like the effects of CS gas, used by almost all police forces worldwide. Perhaps it's a case of them not enjoying the taste of their own medicine, what?
I know not more than what that article in the german newspaper said, and they base it on a press confernece by the berlin police. There it is described as gas grenade from British arsenals that exuded a yellow cloud of gas that at first was ignored by the police, but then made officers loosing the ability to orient themselves, helplessly moving around without orientation, braking down and starting to vomit.

CS is different, i know from first hand experience :-?, both in effect, and in colour. CS effects you from the first seconds on after you got exposed to it, not with minutes of delay, and it is not yellow.

The grenade is not something being used by the Berlin police.

The berlin senate in under fire since long for it's incompoetent handling of violent events like this that from year to year become more brutal. Incompetent tactics orderd by incompetent politicians have made police officers being sent into the "fire" in small groups, making sure that most of the thugs escape unharmed, but every arrest got payed with several injured officers, since these small groups often got mauled. The last time it was a total deasaster with several hundred injured police officers (almost 500 of close to 3000 officers called to the streets)- far more than were arrested (less than 300, and only around 50 were kept to be brought to court). Most of the arrested were released within 48 hours again even with video captures of them throwing stones, vandalising, throwing molotow cocktails, damaging public and private property.

We are a very social state, with much caring for the future fate of those poor lost innocent souls. we should not damage their chance to become integrated well behaving socially valuable memebers of society in the coming years - by arresting them.

Better hope for the best when they start going amok again next 1st May night - becasue they enjoy the violence. It's is not much different than holliganism in Britain - you cannot explain it by social frustration or such educated guesses. It is enjoying the chaos and violence, it is archaic, almost animalistic instibncts of territorialism and tribal rites: "us" against "them". That simple. Causal triggers are not needed. I also do not need a trigger to pick up a piece of chocolate. I simply enjoy the taste of it for the very taste of it, and even do it when I already have had more than is reasonable. Period.

"Not enjoying a taste of their own medicine", you said. I tend to take that haughty anti-police comment a bit queer. the police does not start these nights of street war, but thugs coming from all over Germany to the knonw hotspots in Hamburhg and Berlin, on the known dates, for the only purpose to start trouble, causing violence and if possible trying to hurt officers, "pigs" as they are generally called by these thugs. It is violence tourism, and violence is it's only goal and intention.

A policeman's health and life is not worth much these days anymore. And it'S getting worse and worse. The inhibition levels to use lethal force are decreasing more and more ven amongst the youngest, and more and more often lethal weapons, knifes and firearms are found and confiscated at such events.

Some years ago, the boss of the police in New York was guest in Berlin, that was after he had brought down the crime rate very significantly by several factors, by a policy that even small crimes got hunted down uncompromised thta before got ignored since they were called "too minor". Germans listend, and ignored it completely. "Too tough", some politicians said, but "too expensive" was what all were thinking.

The police union is up in arms over the incident with the gas grenade. They rarely become that, and that means the story is considered as a very dangerous incident.

[Skybird]

It is. I really wouldn't worry if I were you.

As a sidenote though: Two days ago I read an interesting SPIEGEL article about the police situation in Düsseldorf. Just imagine: A city of almost 600,000 inhabitants and a police force of only 60 officers (IIRC). It's relatively calm, but only because there are very few serious crimes. If the situation blew up one day, they would indeed be pretty short on personnel to deal with the situation.

Then again, it really is a safe country, and the First of May is really an exceptional day when it comes to violent protests (even more so in Berlin, I guess).

I think I have read the same. It was reported by that anonymous police officer, right? To be fair, as I understood it, those 60 officers were not for all the city, but one district of it, or did I got that wrong? However, most telephone calls that got listed for the reported night got turned down again by HQ: not enough vehicles, not enough crews.

But Shearwater is right, in general germany is a safe country, still. Only in some places I would be careful to go alone, or at night. the no go areas in Berlin fopr example include places now that 20 years ago I did not hestate to walk by night, all alone.

In Bavaria, three or four days ago two juvenile thugs tried to steal money from three or four little children. A 50 year old man intervened in a display of civil courage - and got beaten and kicked to death by these thugs in the following two minutes.

Unfortunately, events like this seem to happen more often with years going by. we have had several cases now of people being beaten and kicked close to death in public transportation systems in German cities. These crimes displayed an almost complete lack of any scruples and natural inhibitions, and as the police summarises, a new quality in the readiness to use brutality, and a new quality in the level of violence and brutality being shown.

[Cohaagen]

CS is different, i know from first hand experience :-?

Yeah, I know too. I was sprayed during the 2005 G8 protests in Edinburgh, despite the fact that I was working for the local police force at the time as support staff. A lot of the Met cops - bussed in from London to beef up the numbers - seemed to be enjoyed themselves a bit too much.

A policeman's health and life is not worth much these days anymore. And it'S getting worse and worse.No, it isn't. Policemen are paid more than firefighters, infantry soldiers, deep-sea fishermen (of which I am one), oil rig roughnecks, journalists, etc., all of whom suffer a far higher occupational mortality rate. They also have excellent employee benefits and good union represenation EU-wide, not to mention veneration by much of the press.

I'm not a German resident, but I've been to Germany many times (Fallingbostel mainly) and spent many, many months there, and the only time I've seen any street trouble it was caused by British squaddies or their relatives/visitors. Generally people were far more civic-minded than in the UK, and more socially responsible. It is far from doom-and-gloom.


Some years ago, the boss of the police in New York was guest in Berlin, that was after he had brought down the crime rate very significantly by several factors, by a policy that even small crimes got hunted down uncompromised thta before got ignored since they were called "too minor". Germans listend, and ignored it completely. "Too tough", some politicians said, but "too expensive" was what all were thinking.Ah yes, the famous "zero-tolerance" scheme.

A braided chimp in a Sam Browne and army-surplus helmet could have brought down the crime level in New York at that point. It was totally out of control. However, putting people in jail for five years for pissing in a mailbox is not an effective use of resources - it's tough guy posturing.

[Skybird]

As I understood it, the NY zero tolerance scheme was not about excessive penalties, but about not closing cases of minor importance (shoplifting, graffiti spraying) but chasing even small fishes down and bring them to court at all. And comparing crime rates before and after the change convinces me that they have had a valid point there. As an ex-psychologist I also know that they just implemented known findings from behavioral reasearch and behavior shaping, althoiugh maybe thy did it wiothout knowing it. If a penlty should serce it'S pourpose to alter an individual'S behavior, it must

- be implied soon after the deed, for the more time passes between deed and penalty, the smaller the lesson beign learned,

- the penalty must be real and not just imagined (I strictly oppose the idea of suspended penalties),

- the penalty must be of such an aversive quality that the positive gain by the deed is not perceived as a compensation for it,

- and in the early phase of behavior shaping you need to consistently give the penalty stimulas EVERY time the unwanted behavior is being shown. Later the educational effect gets maximised using rewards instead, and after that: there is so-called intermittend shaping, you give the reward only in some cases of wanted behavior, but not in all (every pet-holder does like that by instinct).

But today, courts violate these principles time and again, for claimed good intentions and heavily flawed pedagogic conceptions. This social ambition is as wrong as are boot-camps. I hate to say it, because I do not like it so much in general, but Skinner's behaviorism understands these mechanisms of rewrd and penalty better than any other socio-psychological model.

[ The other thing where I have to admit behaviorism is the method of choice, is the treatement of phobias (systematic desensitizing, stimulus confrontation). ]

[FIREWALL]

It's the Metric systems fault I says. :har:

[OneToughHerring]

While I don't know what grenade it was and what gas, I do believe that the British have all kinds of stuff they don't talk about openly. If things go hairy, the Brits will go for the evil stuff. Oh yea. :)

[August]

While I don't know what grenade it was and what gas, I do believe that the British have all kinds of stuff they don't talk about openly. If things go hairy, the Brits will go for the evil stuff. Oh yea. :)


Sounds like CS gas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CS_gas

[Fincuan]

The effects sure sound like military grade CS was used, but the delay does not. I too have been subjected to the substance on a few occassions, and the effects started within seconds, not minutes. Then again magazines rarely get this kind of stuff correctly, so it might just be an error in their reporting. In strong enough concentrations even "normal" yellow smoke could cause the described effects, even kill, but that'd mean you'd have to stand practically on top of the canister or be indoors. Neither of those seem to be the case here.

[August]

The effects sure sound like military grade CS was used, but the delay does not. I too have been subjected to the substance on a few occassions, and the effects started within seconds, not minutes. Then again magazines rarely get this kind of stuff correctly, so it might just be an error in their reporting. In strong enough concentrations even "normal" yellow smoke could cause the described effects, even kill, but that'd mean you'd have to stand practically on top of the canister or be indoors. Neither of those seem to be the case here.

"Shortly" could mean seconds I suppose.

[ETR3(SS)]

I gotta agree with the CS gas sentiment. Having been gassed in the Navy, all the symptoms match. If this was something more sinister you would know! Nerve, Blister, etc agents leave tell tale signs of their use and are usually fatal.

[Skybird]

The article has been changed slightly. It now mentions that it was CS indeed, and that the canister was developed by thew British to be used against riots in Northern Ireland. A former passage that the wounded officers had to stay in hospital for some time, has been taken away, replaced with that the wounded officers suffered from the described effects only a short time.

Berliner Morgenpost. :x Of the two or three major papers in Berlin, Der Tagesspiegel is the better, Morgenpost is the worse. Really good is none of the two.

[ETR3(SS)]

Meh, same **** happens on this side of the pond too.