My mate walks into a pub.....

[flag4]

My mate met this Bloke in a pub, he was 84 years old....

it happened this afternoon. he had finished work and gone for a drink. standing at the bar was a well dressed elderly gentlemen who had just ordered his 3rd drink which comprised a glass of red wine with a tea maria, some kind of brandy and a shot of vodka !!!! the drink itself cost about £10 a go. the landlord is a friend of ours.

they got talking, my friend and this old chap - who told him he didnt smoke anymore and had finished with sex "..its a bit like playing snooker with a rope.."

then he went on to tell him he had been working on a passenger liner around the outbreak of war in 39, travelling between New York and the Bahamas. at some point in the coming years the liner was commisioned by the US Military for a troop ship carrier. On its way to 'somewhere' it was torpedoed and went down with all hands. (..maybe the history buffs at subsim could 'clarify' this ?..)

the old boy joined the merchant navy, at some point, and on his way over to Liverpool he was torpedoed too - and all hands took to lifeboats. apparently....and i say this with caution because it is a contentious point, they all witnessed the sub rising to surface and the crew began to machine gun the survivers. alot of them were shot dead but the old boy and his lifeboat got away with a few others....(..possible late part of war - but Donitz did not issue this order from Hitler, said it would be bad for morale and the image of the Navy etc - i beleive...)

i was not there, in the pub, whish i had been though. even with my meagre knowledge i could have at least flushed him out with a few dates and names of boats - joined a few dots and weighed it all up.

my friend knows about my love all things U Boat - i drive him nuts with all the history and SH3, when we work together. he said he was cursing because i was not there to try and substantiate it all in some way.

any thoughts on these stories from this afternoon would be greatly appreciated.

now i'm off for a pint down The Albion...:salute:

[sharkbit]

Sorry, but I'm a Yank and this makes no sense:
"..its a bit like playing snooker with a rope.."

Sounds amusing though. :D

Interesting story though. Too bad there is no better dates, or the like.

Found this though-take with grain of salt-probably a lot is unsubstantiated:
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Camp/3166/

There is only one war crimes trial though that resulted in a conviction:
http://www.uboataces.com/articles-war-criminal.shtml

:)

[flag4]

Sorry, but I'm a Yank and this makes no sense:

Quote:
"..its a bit like playing snooker with a rope.."
Sounds amusing though. :D


sharkbit, i think the quickest translation for snooker is pool.........can u see how it plays out now...... :-)

as to the story, my friend can not remember the name of the merchant that sank or the commandiered passenger liner for the troops. as the old boy was drinking his volcanic mix my friend was drinking strong cider.......short term memory - gone - he's 45.

i hope i meet him next time so i can dig a little deeper...

thanks for the links, the cruelty was unbeleievable. and Erich Topp, one of my favorites too.....:-(

[Ford Prefect]

Machine gunning survivors of sunken military vessels was hardly uncommon. There's reports of british and norwegian forces machine gunning crews of sunken german destroyers in Narvik. But then they strafed the beaches an dunkirk, it's swings and roundabouts, part and parcel of the horrors of war. Interestingly enough one of those destroyers in Narvik can still be seen, the captain knew she was sinking so rammed her into the side of the fjord, unlike other destroyers that did the same this one caught on a ledge with the bow protruding from the water and is still there to this day. I saw it some years ago when I was visiting my father who lives up in Harstad these days.

[flag4]

"...Interestingly enough one of those destroyers in Narvik can still be seen, the captain knew she was sinking so rammed her into the side of the fjord, unlike other destroyers that did the same this one caught on a ledge with the bow protruding from the water and is still there to this day..."

Ford Prefect, do you have a photo - not of your Dad!, but the sunken boat...interesting stuff. :)

[JU_88]

From what Ive heard, it was somewhat down to indervidual U-boat captains,
Some were decent and tried to help surviors,
Most just ignored them,
but some were monsters and ordered them to be executed. :nope:

The same story in every war unfortunately

[Hitman]

he was 84 years old

So he was 14 in 1939?

And therefore, 20 in 1945

OK, he could have sailed late in the war, but I doubt much it was in 1939 :06:

[Hitman]

BTW now I remember something I wanted to narrate already for some time :DL

I have an uncle who is now 88, and in 1943 he was lieutenant in the spanish army, serving in La Linea (That's the town in Spain near Gibraltar). By pure luck he got to see the huge armada sent by the allies to disembark in Sicilia cross the Gibraltar strait in front of his eyes :o, and the funny part is that in a given moment they suddeny turned towards him (probably a simple zig-zag, typichal in any naval formation) and he got so scared as he thought they were coming for Spain -Our country's government was back then close to nazi germany- he went down on his stomach!

[Ford Prefect]

"...Interestingly enough one of those destroyers in Narvik can still be seen, the captain knew she was sinking so rammed her into the side of the fjord, unlike other destroyers that did the same this one caught on a ledge with the bow protruding from the water and is still there to this day..."

Ford Prefect, do you have a photo - not of your Dad!, but the sunken boat...interesting stuff. :)


Unfortunately my hobby with photography didn't catch on until a few years later and I never managed to get back to see the wreck again dispite passing through narvik several more times on my trips through norway. I'm sure there are pictures about though, if you can find info about the battle for narvik during the norwegian campaign of 1940 you'll likely find the sunken destroyers names and be able to trace from there. I'm kinda busy at the moment, putting warmed olive oil in my left ear to try and shift the wax that's sent me deaf in said ear, else I'd search myself.


So he was 14 in 1939?

And therefore, 20 in 1945

OK, he could have sailed late in the war, but I doubt much it was in 1939 :06:

There were boys aged 14 in the trenches in the first war, most lads would have been starting work at that age at that time, it's perfectly plausible to think he could have been on a ship, probably no more than a tea boy but he could have been there certainly.

[Brag]

There is only one documented incident in which a U boat machined gunned survivors. The commander of the U boat was convicted of a war crime.

The incident happened in the South Atlantic.

The gentleman in the pub seems like an old bee esser

[Ford Prefect]

There is only one documented incident in which a U boat machined gunned survivors. The commander of the U boat was convicted of a war crime.

The incident happened in the South Atlantic.

The gentleman in the pub seems like an old bee esser

I saw Jack Dee on youtube the other day talking about the SAS, he did a gig in a town near their main training barracks, the whole town is therefore full of ****ehawks who go around telling folks they are in or were in the SAS, it's a little hard to swallow when they're 23 stone and stupider than a brick.... Jack of course just proceeded to rip the p**s out of them liberally.

If this guy is a "bee esser" he's a fairly low key one at least, not quite in the realms of Andy McNab or possibly Guy Sajer.

[Jimbuna]

So he was 14 in 1939?

And therefore, 20 in 1945

OK, he could have sailed late in the war, but I doubt much it was in 1939 :06:

Not totally impossible.....my father is 86 (still with us) and lied about his age. He was aboard a British merchantmen (Euphorbia) that was bombed in Barcelona harbour on May 14th 39.

I'd be more than happy to post images of his wartime papers if anyone is interested (Sailor Steve has long possessed copies).

If the aforementioned gent is a bit of a tom pepper I really don't see any potential for causing serious harm with his yarns.....we all know what effects alcohol can have on people. :DL

[flag4]

.....we all know what effects alcohol can have on people. :DL


I'll drink to that.


maybe someone knows of this troop ship cum passenger liner that went down with 7000 (seven thousand) american troops. if we can trace that we can trace a little more of the authenticity of this gentlemans story....:hmmm:

[Ford Prefect]

.....we all know what effects alcohol can have on people. :DL


I'll drink to that.


maybe someone knows of this troop ship cum passenger liner that went down with 7000 (seven thousand) american troops. if we can trace that we can trace a little more of the authenticity of this gentlemans story....:hmmm:

as I recall there was a big US troop ship sunk somewhere off scotland in '42, I only recall this because it was alleged that one of the bodies was used in Operation Mincemeat (you'd know it better as "The Man Who Never Was") as the corpse they'd originally intended to use was rapidly decaying. As for the details of the loss of that ship, I've no idea.

[Captain Nemo]

.....we all know what effects alcohol can have on people. :DL


I'll drink to that.


maybe someone knows of this troop ship cum passenger liner that went down with 7000 (seven thousand) american troops. if we can trace that we can trace a little more of the authenticity of this gentlemans story....:hmmm:

A quick bit of research has thrown up a couple of possibilities. The first is the USAT Dorchester sunk by U-223 on 3 February 1943. Out of the 904 on board 674 perished more info here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USAT_Dorchester .

The second and more likely the one referred to by the old geezer is the SS Leopoldville sunk on 24 December 1944 in the English Channel. A quote from Wikipedia states "Of the 2,235 American servicemen on board, approximately 515 are presumed to have gone down with the ship. Another 248 died from injuries, drowning, or hypothermia."

In neither case was all hands lost.

As has been mentioned before, Heinz-Wilhelm Eck of U-852 was the only u-boat commander convicted and executed for war crimes for machine gunning survivors of the SS Peleus.

Nemo

[Ford Prefect]

A quick bit of research has thrown up a couple of possibilities. The first is the USAT Dorchester sunk by U-223 on 3 February 1943. Out of the 904 on board 674 perished more info here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USAT_Dorchester .

The second and more likely the one referred to by the old geezer is the SS Leopoldville sunk on 24 December 1944 in the English Channel. A quote from Wikipedia states "Of the 2,235 American servicemen on board, approximately 515 are presumed to have gone down with the ship. Another 248 died from injuries, drowning, or hypothermia."

In neither case was all hands lost.

As has been mentioned before, Heinz-Wilhelm Eck of U-852 was the only u-boat commander convicted and executed for war crimes for machine gunning survivors of the SS Peleus.

Nemo

The fact he was the only one convicted doesn't 100% rule out that other machine gunning events took place. However, while that is the case I would prefer to think that most U-boat captains had more humanity than that, just because they fought for their country doesn't mean they fought for the twisted ideology practised by her leaders. At least in the west we've sought more to apologise and atone for what happened during the war, which is more than could ever be said about the Japanese who to this day lie to their children about what really happened.

[Ancient Mariner]

Can't work out to quote but @ Ford Prefect,in a perfect world we can all think that Uboat commanders were humanitarian in their conduct,unfortunately the harsh reality of WW2 was that many of them did share the ideologies of the Nazi Regime:nope: To the last point correct me if I am wrong if the Japanese lie to their kids about WW2 & the west sought to atone for their "sins" as such,why is there a blank space in German history?

Yes war is atrocious in all forms but to leave out the historical significance of what happened in that specific timeframe?!?:hmmm:

[Ford Prefect]

Can't work out to quote but @ Ford Prefect,in a perfect world we can all think that Uboat commanders were humanitarian in their conduct,unfortunately the harsh reality of WW2 was that many of them did share the ideologies of the Nazi Regime:nope: To the last point correct me if I am wrong if the Japanese lie to their kids about WW2 & the west sought to atone for their "sins" as such,why is there a blank space in German history?

Yes war is atrocious in all forms but to leave out the historical significance of what happened in that specific timeframe?!?:hmmm:

The germans admit to what they did, the death camps etc. The japanese choose to ignore their forced labour camps, torture (including putting rice in prisoners ears and inducing it to grow) and all the other stuff they did.

I'm in the position of having family from both side of the conflict, one of my great aunties grew up in hitler's german, through the girls version of the hitler youth and lived through the war, her brother(s) fought on the eastern front and still, long after the war, uptil she died, her mother would still call anything marked "product of israel" "juden Scheiße" (or something along those lines) as if it were the most normal thing in the world. No covering up there of what feelings there had been in germany pre and during the war. My auntie though turned out a very normal person despite it all and to the best of my knowledge she's still going. A wonderful old lady who bought the best presents in typical german fashion that would have made the ahnenerbe proud. The boys always got tool kits or microscopes, practical toys. The girls got dolls and cookery sets. It's amazing how echoes of this time live on, the Olympic torch for example....

[DaveU186]

With regard to the ship in Narvik:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2113/2506215777_8e13316646.jpg

That it?

The George Thiele, if so.

[Ford Prefect]

With regard to the ship in Narvik:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2113/2506215777_8e13316646.jpg

That it?

The George Thiele, if so.

Thats the bugger aye, I couldn't get that close to it at the time as the area is owned by the electricity board as they have a sub station nearby so it's all fenced off. Apprently for a long time at low tide you could still see the swastika on the bow deck. I'm not sure how true this is, did they even sail into battle with them painted on?

[Schroeder]

To the last point correct me if I am wrong if the Japanese lie to their kids about WW2 & the west sought to atone for their "sins" as such,why is there a blank space in German history?

May I ask what blank space we are talking about?:06:

[Ford Prefect]

May I ask what blank space we are talking about?:06:

ah, but you're german so if there is one how are you going to know? :dead:








just incase the sarcasm didn't hit you, I am just kidding.

[flag4]

"To the last point correct me if I am wrong if the Japanese lie to their kids about WW2 & the west sought to atone for their "sins" as such,why is there a blank space in German history?"


"May I ask what blank space we are talking about?:06: "


"ah, but you're german so if there is one how are you going to know? :dead:








just incase the sarcasm didn't hit you, I am just kidding. "



.....Enlighten him....:yep:

[Ford Prefect]

"To the last point correct me if I am wrong if the Japanese lie to their kids about WW2 & the west sought to atone for their "sins" as such,why is there a blank space in German history?"


"May I ask what blank space we are talking about?:06: "


"ah, but you're german so if there is one how are you going to know? :dead:








just incase the sarcasm didn't hit you, I am just kidding. "



.....Enlighten him....:yep:

well it all started in eighteen hundred and nineteen thirty nine, on septimbre the 43rd germany declared war in all directions *BANG*
Mass writing of war memoir began europe wide, leading to many a film of the book of the tram being made. England was mobilised and recruits were rushing to the recruiting depot at the rate of one a year. In 1942, a critical year for Britain, with British Generals slaving away at their autobiographies, the germans came up with "Operation Burnbaum", smuggling a secret agent with a spraygun of secret liquid into the Great British Military Shirt Factory near Leicester where he sprayed all the shirt tails. When the wearer of the shirts sat down the heat from the body caused the shirt tail to explode!
After a series of explosions the British intelligence caught on and called up Major Bloodnok who knew more about exploding shirt tails than any other. Bloodnok was instructed to test the shirts to see what was causing the explosions, he was offered the reward of Several plastic OBEs and a drip-dry statue of Jane Mansfield and a ticket to Hampstead Fairground. After some testing Neddie Seagoon was sent into germany in an attempt to discover the origin of the shirt exploding fluid. Unfortunately Neddie was captured by Trader Horn on his way to germany and taken to the POW camp at Rhinegold Castle, Fnutt. The prison was full of British Officers who had sworn to die rather than be captured. Finally though he and his fellow agent were able to escape. Ned and his party made their way to the great German Chemical Works at Schatz. By using the short-wave cardboard secret horse-hair and mattress telephone, they were able to contact London by speech. It was then they learnt the name of the chemical that exploded the shirt-tails. It was called Gerschattzer. A supply of cupboards was dropped by air as neddie and his party were surrounded by the germans. After an exchange of fire pronounced gerbang neddie was saved by the american 5th cavalry which had also saved the television.



There, I hope that has filled in the missing knowledge of world war two as brought to us by men who served in it, namely spike milligan, peter sellars and harry seacombe, aka the goons. :D

[Brag]

Adolf Hitler and my Role in His Downfall, by Spike Milligan. A great read! :DL

and Rommel, Gunner Who? :haha::haha:

[Schroeder]

Damn it I really didn't know that.:damn:
History documentaries and history lessons in school never get it right it seems.:down:


:D

[Ford Prefect]

Adolf Hitler and my Role in His Downfall, by Spike Milligan. A great read! :DL

and Rommel, Gunner Who? :haha::haha:


There's about 8 or so books in total, I've read most of them. Very good stuff, Mussolini, his part in my downfall chart's Spike's shellshock and slip into manic depression. Which ironically enough was when he hooked up with harry seacombe and started doing more performing.


Damn it I really didn't know that.:damn:
History documentaries and history lessons in school never get it right it seems.:down:


:D

http://www.thegoonshow.net/scripts_show.asp?title=s06e01_the_man_who_won_the_ war

http://www.thegoonshow.net/scripts_show.asp?title=s06e25_the_fear_of_wages

^a couple of other tales from the war which are more than likely missing from your history books.

[Cohaagen]

You could certainly join the Merchant and Royal Navy as a minor in the 1930s (the actual rating was "Boy"). My grandfather joined the MN as a 15yr old cadet in 1934, and was in Singapore on tankers when war broke out. The fact that this old chap claimed to be serving in 1939, despite his age, is no evidence of bull****ting.

Look up the Commonwealth Honour Rolls online. Many casualty lists bring up killed and missing with the rank of "Boy" - that means someone aged 16 or under.