Is it impossible to save the Bismarck?

[Zilch]

Since getting GWX, I've been interested to see how it handled the operations against the Bismarck and wanted to see how I could influence the outcome.

After hours of waiting, I finally managed to get U-54 in position to sink HMS Rodney and HMS King George V. Two under King George V's keel were enough to cause flooding to bring her down. Rodney took quite a few more, though, I think I missed the vital spots and had to use four torps to seal the deal.

King George V and Rodney go gown:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v117/Zilch79/SH3Img12-9-2009_162213_406.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v117/Zilch79/SH3Img12-9-2009_163156_0.jpg


Feeling pretty confident after watching two huge battlewagons slither to the bottom, I set to All Stop and listened with the hydrophone. After a few minutes I picked up a new warship. Thinking it could have been another pursuing British battleship, I surfaced and ordered ahead flank on an intercept course.

Finally, I caught sight of the warship. It was the Bismarck!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v117/Zilch79/SH3Img12-9-2009_17028_234.jpg
(Just in case there was any doubt left. :cool: )


The port side was shot to hell, and it was streaming black smoke from a fire on the decks. I tried following a parallel course at equal speed in hopes of chasing down any pursuers with my sole remaining torpedo.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v117/Zilch79/SH3Img12-9-2009_165023_531.jpg

Then, swarms of Swordfish came down from the skies. Normally, I would have pulled the plug and headed down, but I wanted to save Bismarck at all costs. I manned the flak gun and started trying to gun them down, knowing full well how effective they were against Bismarck, historically.

I put a few holes in one, but their strafing runs cost me my flak gunner. One for many, I thought. Up to this point I've never suffered a casualty, but in defense of such a battleship, a cold cost-benefit analysis lead me to stay by the decision. I called up another crewman to man it and kept firing at the biplanes.

Finally they either expended their stores or ran out of fuel, leaving U-54 alone with the Bismarck. The battleship altered course from ESE to WNW, which I mirrored. Finally, it ended up where it was sunk, historically (and I checked a map in one of my books to confirm this location. GWX rocks.) It ended up doing and endless circle to port, with me in the middle of the circle at periscope depth listening for attackers, surfacing to look for aircraft periodically.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v117/Zilch79/SH3Img12-9-2009_171015_968.jpg

Finally, I got a radio message, saying that Bismarck had been lost and that it was a sad day for the German people.

Now, I just lost a man trying to keep this ship afloat. What I'm wondering is, did I not play it right? Did a Swordfish sneak in and torpedo the ship while I was under? Or, is the death of Bismarck scripted to be unpreventable? Since I was at PD I didn't actually see the ship go down. All I got was a radio message, with no more map contact.

[KeptinCranky]

"Or, is the death of Bismarck scripted to be unpreventable?"

Yes :-? the endless circle is what happened historically, with the rudder damage, this gave the British battleships the chance they needed to p0und her into scrap.

you having removed the Battleships does not alter the outcome, the Campaign is not that interactive, unfortunately.

It would be awesome if it could've been though, makes sinking the Hood in late 39 even better, stealing Bismarck's credit :arrgh!:

[Zilch]

Thanks...I feel better, knowing that it's unstoppable. And, hey, two battleships for the killboard. :cool:

[goggles]

ive had that mission play out quite different a few times....

once i played it and bismarck managed to sink the kgv and rodney before finally succumbing to her wounds without any assistance from pesky u boats

and on several occasions the bismarck manages to take at least one of the attacking bbs with her


doesnt always play out as per history

[Zilch]

Still, and I can't say this enough, it is very cool to be able to play a hand in it, even if it is a virtual hand. GWX is the best thing since birth control. :DL

[U2222]

Sure, so the death of Bismark is scripted.
But I wonder what would happen if you could find and sink the carriers (if they exist in game) before they launched the swordfish?

[papa_smurf]

Sure, so the death of Bismark is scripted.
But I wonder what would happen if you could find and sink the carriers (if they exist in game) before they launched the swordfish?

It would probably still sink

[U2222]

Undoubtedly.
Or just maybe trigger a CTD:haha:

[flakmonkey]

Well funnily i had almost the exact oposite experience, i got a radio message to go and assist the bismarck, i was only 80Km away so i thought id at least go and watch the fireworks as she was sunk. Shortly after i got the message about her sinking with all hands.

Well a little while later i come across the bismarck perfectly undamaged and going round in wide circles. I figure the scripted messages must have been a little ahead of the scripted event in game, so i waited to see if the brits would show up, and waited...and waited, almost 4 days after she was supposed to have sunk she was still going round and round in circles!

I looked in the campaign.scr and yes the brits should have been there, i guess they had something better to do....

Of course just for the sake of historical accuracy i put a couple of torpedos into the Bismarck.

(GWX 3gold btw)

[Dread Knot]

Yes....the Bismarck was a sad case indeed. Think of all the potential U-Boats that could have been built, wrapped up in that hull of hers. :03:

[Zilch]

Well funnily i had almost the exact oposite experience, i got a radio message to go and assist the bismarck, i was only 80Km away so i thought id at least go and watch the fireworks as she was sunk. Shortly after i got the message about her sinking with all hands.

Well a little while later i come across the bismarck perfectly undamaged and going round in wide circles. I figure the scripted messages must have been a little ahead of the scripted event in game, so i waited to see if the brits would show up, and waited...and waited, almost 4 days after she was supposed to have sunk she was still going round and round in circles!

I looked in the campaign.scr and yes the brits should have been there, i guess they had something better to do....

Of course just for the sake of historical accuracy i put a couple of torpedos into the Bismarck.

(GWX 3gold btw)

You actually sunk it? Wow. Did a group of nice men in evil-looking uniforms await you, dockside, with a Luger pointed at your head when you got home? ;)

[Pacific_Ace]

I think Ubi has this sort of thing in mind for SH5, a dynamic campaign, and thus the ability to affect history.

[Zilch]

That reminds me...did anyone ever play Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe back in the day? It was an old DOS-era flight sim that was mostly about the flight. However, it had a fully-controllable campaign mode that let you set up what flights took place, what they attacked or defended, etc. The outcome of the war depended on your plans and execution. You plan the B-17 raid, P-51 escorts, etc. Then, you can fly the mission and reap the rewards. It was quite advanced for the time and haven't seen anything comparable since.

Does anyone remember this?

[U2222]

Be careful Zilch, your dating yourself!!!:DL
What is DOS?

[KeptinCranky]

I think Ubi has this sort of thing in mind for SH5, a dynamic campaign, and thus the ability to affect history.

from the Subsim meet, having seen the presentation... YES :yeah:

:salute:

[Zilch]

Be careful Zilch, your dating yourself!!!

What is DOS?

DOS? Uh...no idea! I heard some older gamer speak of it once. I think it means, "DYsfunctional Ornithological Survey.." Yeah...that must be it...

[JHuschke]

Knowing till this day still saddens me! Think of it if the Bismarck did survive, and more bigger and heavier ships were built than any other ship besides a U-boot...a total change in the outcome of the years of 1938-45!

[Dread Knot]

Knowing till this day still saddens me! Think of it if the Bismarck did survive, and more bigger and heavier ships were built than any other ship besides a U-boot...a total change in the outcome of the years of 1938-45!

Change of outcome with what? There were no more heavy German ships in the building after Tirpitz nor would there likely ever be. The German Z-Plan for 6 battleships, 8 heavy cruisers and four carriers by 1944 was pretty much thrown out the window the day the war started as the materials were more badly needed for the Wehrmacht and the Luftwaffe. The one aircraft carrier (Graf Zeppelin) started under the Z-Plan spent the war sitting idle in port with no planes while being slowly stripped of all useful guns and gear. Airpower had rendered battleships obsolete by war's end anyway. Bismarck's being knocked into running circles by a flimsy biplane proved that.

[JHuschke]

I know...but what if the plan wasn't a total fail.. just saying if everything worked out fine what would be the outcome of WWII? :88)

[U2222]

With the WW2 naval war.
Once the USA got involved, the outcome was pretty much inevitable given the might of their military / industrial power.
Just a question of how long and how many had to die in the process

[Iranon]

Germany did not really have a use for bigger ships. It had no hope of matching the true naval powers of the time and the design of the ships reflects that.
They were meant to a) sink merchants b) keep enemy navies busy.

German battleships reflect these needs: They were lightly armed compared to those of other nations but fairly fast. They also did not feature an all-or-nothing armour scheme that would allow for better survivability when fighting equal foes; they were built to destroy weaker ships without taking too much damage and run away from danger.

A British battleship sunk vs. a German battleship damaged severely enough to need lengthy repairs would have been in favour of Britain, because each German capital ship was tying up many times its worth on the other side.

*

As an aside: Possibly as important as the sheer industrial power of the USA, Germany had no way to win a decisive victory against a foe that far away.
It was obvious ommerce raiding couldn't cripple it alone (realistic for the UK - Churchill was worried about that). Germany's plans for taking the fight to America were technically sweet but very ambitious for their time... not something that could be relied on and outright daydreams when fighting a costly war elsewhere.

[Dread Knot]

The German surface navy probably never really had a good faith sponser with Adolf Hitler. In 1943, after the humiliating defeat in the Battle of the Barents Sea, Hitler flew into a rage and told his admirals that their Navy was "utterly useless". He railed against all big ships as a waste of resources, even going back in history to criticize the dreadnoughts of the Imperial German High Seas Fleet in WWI. He wanted all the remaining heavy ships scrapped, and their guns removed for use as coastal defences. Doenitz talked him out of it but you can't help but wonder if he was venting a belief he had held all along.

[JHuschke]

Yes, but it is also true that Hitler had little or no interest in the U-boats and had huge interest in giant battleships like the Bismarck, it is sad to see he did not put in much "effort" into the Kriegsmarine as he "did" into other branches of the German army.

[Dread Knot]

Yes, but it is also true that Hitler had little or no interest in the U-boats

Unfortunately, he was interested enough to meddle. The 20 U-Boats sent to guard the coast of Norway from an imaginary invasion and the constant stream of boats directed on a one-way trip to the Mediterranean to 'support' Mussolini and Rommel were good examples of Hitler overriding Doenitz's wishes and interfering in matters he didn't understand. It certainly sapped the effort needed to fight the Battle of the Atlantic.

[Pacific_Ace]

Yes, but it is also true that Hitler had little or no interest in the U-boats and had huge interest in giant battleships like the Bismarck, it is sad to see he did not put in much "effort" into the Kriegsmarine as he "did" into other branches of the German army.

Your desire to see a bigger German navy in WW2 is laudable, but misguided. Germany had an excellent industrial base compared to other European nations. Compared to the USA it was a joke.
On entry to the war America alone had 7 carriers and 17 BB's with 4 more coming online before August of 1942.

By wars end America turned out the following:
Large Fleet Carriers (CVB)- 2 (late 45, no action)
Fleet Carriers (CV)
Lexington Class- 2
Ranger Class- 1
Yorktown Class- 2
Wasp Class- 1
Hornet Class- 1
Essex Class- 17
------------------------------
Total CV's 26

Light Carriers (CVL)
Independance Class- 9
Saipan Class- 2
----------------------------
Total CVL 11

Escort Carriers (CVE)
Long Island Class- 2
Bogue Class- 11
Sangamon Class- 4
Casablanca Class- 50
Commencement Bay Class- 16 with 3 more in 1946
----------------------------------------------
Total CVE's - 83

Total carriers @ end of 1945 - 120

Thats JUST carriers. Think about the hundreds of cruisers, destroyers, subs and merchants the US also turned out.
Germany could have had 20 Bismarks and 20 Graf Zepplins and the only thing that might have happened was the war gets prolonged to the point that Berlin gets nuked as well. As for winning the war, there was zero chance of that happening after Hitler declared war on the US. I'm not even mentioning Russia here. All those capital ships would have served Germany better if the steel had been used for U-Boats.

[Zilch]

All those capital ships would have served Germany better if the steel had been used for U-Boats.

That, and Me-262's, used in their intended interceptor role as opposed to the vengeance bomber that Hitler wanted. Again, it would have drawn out the war even longer, but the end result, I think, would have been the same.

$0.02