Beware, the Krauts are coming (once again)!

[Skybird]

These days its not only ceremonies for 9/11, but celebrating German reunification as well. In these days of the year, but 20 years back, some things had started to slide into a moving that changed the face of Europe once again, and the face of all the world. what began with some individual'S and families desperate stories of dramatic escape and hide-and-seek in hungarian meadows, led to a revolution in which not a single shot was fired and that ended with the end of the cold war and the end of the most threatening military standoff history knows.

And some people were horrified. :D

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,648364,00.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8251211.stm

Two more years, and I can say that I spend one half of my life in a split country, and one half of my life in a united country. and in three years and later, I will have lived in a united country for longer time than I ever had lived in a split country.

[Onkel Neal]

Congrats, Germany. :salute:

[Freiwillige]

Yes Congrats Germany! Now if we can only fix Korea! By the way Skybird what side of the wall were you on?

[MothBalls]

I sincerely hope that the reunification of Germany has helped the people there. To me there is nothing more tragic than seeing entire populations suffer because of the decisions of a few that came to power.

I look forward to the day, and I probably won't see it in my lifetime, but I would hope that the day will come when we can tear down all the walls and not have a need for borders.

[Carotio]

celebrating German reunification as well. In these days of the year, but 20 years back,

Two more years, and I can say that I spend one half of my life in a split country, and one half of my life in a united country. and in three years and later, I will have lived in a united country for longer time than I ever had lived in a split country.

Second part means 2011-1991 = 20 years * 2 = 40 years - 2 = so you're 38 years old today, right?

So how is it in Germany today - do people still use the words: Wessis & Ossis?
That was used quite a lot in the 90'ies IIRC, often in a negative sence...

[Shearwater]

So how is it in Germany today - do people still use the words: Wessis & Ossis?
That was used quite a lot in the 90'ies IIRC, often in a negative sence...

They still do, although the frequency has diminished somewhat I guess. And my sister doesn't use it for sure because her bf (being a West German herself) is from East Germany :D

The more curious thing is though that almost all politically relevant statistics (employment, economy, education and the like) are still divided between East and West Germany. There's still a slight sense of separation which I think is outdated in many ways.

And it's always nice to read the opinions of Mrs Thatcher. I owe a lot of respect to that lady - after all, she was one of the persons who made soft ice cream possible :DL

[Skybird]

Yes Congrats Germany! Now if we can only fix Korea! By the way Skybird what side of the wall were you on?
Inside of it. :)

West-Berlin.

[Skybird]

Second part means 2011-1991 = 20 years * 2 = 40 years - 2 = so you're 38 years old today, right?

So how is it in Germany today - do people still use the words: Wessis & Ossis?
That was used quite a lot in the 90'ies IIRC, often in a negative sence...

Count with 1989 instead of 1991.

42 ;)

[Carotio]

Count with 1989 instead of 1991.

42 ;)

Oh, yeah, my mistake, I remember wrong. I was in Berlin in 1991, one year after the official reunification of Oct. 3rd 1990, whereas the opening took place November 9th 1989.

[Skybird]

"Wessies/Ossies" occasionally gets used, but not with so much polarising sentiments anymore, more often as a good-willed joke. I mean young people leaving school now have zero memory of the old days back then, while us witnesses of the old times become older and quiter.

The East is economically prospering only in some hotspots and bigger cities, but in general it is a desert, with extremely bad perspectives. On every comparing statistics chart and map of all germany you still see the former GDR marked in such different colours, that it is as if the state border still would be there.

The demographic change spells desaster because it is far more dramatic and desastrous here than in the rest of Germany and Europe, leaving only the old behind. the young women leave and go West to have families and jobs, the young men do that, too - if they can: if they don't match the hard market demands in their qualification, they cannot do that, stay unemployed, and must stay in the east, as singles. In no other region in Europe there is such a giant lack of young women of the age to marry.

Socially weak young men (often with somewhat inferiority awareness because they know they did not make it on the Western market), and old people, and no women - means a very unhealthy social climate, means low tax incomes for the states. Means more and more infrastructure cannot be run. Doctors are becoming rare. Stalling public transportation systems (while old people do not have doctors in their towns anymore). Underfunded, dying schools. no kids. No economic new-founding (unemploymeent in some places 40% and more). Shrinking population. Growing Nazism (in some hotspot areas up to 45%, and an unknopwn plus of silent supporters). Even steeper economic decline. People who can fford it leaving faster, more "losers" left behind... even lesser tax incomes... a vicious circle.

Or in short: no future. I think much of it will become somewhat a desert. In some places it already is.

Of course no politician can afford to say that loud, but I admit I think most of the East we can write off. The trends says a very clear and unmistakable language, and almost every major statistic analysis of future perpsectives published in the past 10 years paints a complete doomsday scenario for let's say two thirds of the East. If I would be there I would move heaven and hell to get out of there. the East in general will never be on comparable economic grounds like the West of Germany, and Western European nations. That can only be seen in some hotspots.

Germany has terribly underestimated the costs - financially and else - of the reunification. And the GDR was in comparably good shape - if and when Korea should reunite, the South will see even greater problems then Westgermany did, for comparing with North Korea, the GDR was a giant paradise of unmatched economic health.

The task could possibly sink Korea in the longer run of reunification. It will be volumes bigger, than ours.

[Sledgehammer427]

Sometimes Germany sounds like it is still a scary place to be

[Skybird]

Travelling as a tourist there, you hardly notice these things. You move just through, and you move too fast. So don'T be afraid to visit it!

I have seen quite some countries, but no country ever that was only scarying all together, or only a paradise alltogether. east Germany has some nice landscape to see, especially the closer to Poland you come (and then areas in Poland itself). It's just a place that is much more difficult to form an existence and a future in, compared to west Germany. anything I dsaid about the situation in Eastgermany only makes sense and should be seen with standards on mind that compare it to the rest of northern, Western, Southern and Central Europe.

If I compare it with Algeria, or Syria or Anatolia, all places that I learned to know a bit, or places in aFrica or north Korea, Eastgermany suddenly appears to be as paradise on Earth.

So, our standards to which we compare our lives, play into it. And one certainly must amdit that wetsern living standards are excessively exaggerated and make us all living on tick that we cannot pay back, never.

If all mankind would live by the same standards like we in the West, despair and revolts would cause thermonuclear global war within a couple of years, I'm sure. Imagine 7 billion people consuming and wasting like we do in the West - our planet would not support that kind of a desaster, and many societies in history have collapsed in surprinsingly short time due to the civilisation in a place consumed all it's life-supporting natural resources, destroyed the environment, and then - after having messed up everything that was available for messing it up - was left with the only choice to turn to cannibalism, and then died.

[OneToughHerring]

There was already one thread about this subject, "homesick for a dictator", about how some of the former East-Germans are missing the old times of the DDR. A lot of DDR memorabilia in Finland also, for some reason. We've also had Stasi-trials that I think are still pretty common in Germany as well.

I don't know, is it really so that there is not much to celebrate now with the 20th anniversary etc.? Or less then people thought there would be back in 1989? It was a rough start to the whole unified Germany with the tough recession in the early 90's and it hasn't really eased much since. A lot of glass and steel constructing in Berlin but the rest of old East-Germany has stagnated.

I wonder if East-Germany today is what the Americans had in mind when they wanted so much to "tear down the walls" etc.

[Oberon]

I remember watching the celebrations on the news, hard to think that it was twenty years ago now. :hmmm: Time just goes so bloody fast. :yep:

[Freiwillige]

I fail to understand this East\West German situation. I mean Germany united is the size of Texas so you would think that the prosperous west would simply expand production into the east and vice verse. Is there some sort of economic blockade of east German industry by the west?

I just cannot understand how Germany has failed unify its two parts.
Its not as if Germany was split for centuries, People on both sides of the wall remember when there was no wall.

[FIREWALL]

There was already one thread about this subject, "homesick for a dictator", about how some of the former East-Germans are missing the old times of the DDR. A lot of DDR memorabilia in Finland also, for some reason. We've also had Stasi-trials that I think are still pretty common in Germany as well.

I don't know, is it really so that there is not much to celebrate now with the 20th anniversary etc.? Or less then people thought there would be back in 1989? It was a rough start to the whole unified Germany with the tough recession in the early 90's and it hasn't really eased much since. A lot of glass and steel constructing in Berlin but the rest of old East-Germany has stagnated.

I wonder if East-Germany today is what the Americans had in mind when they wanted so much to "tear down the walls" etc.


Just to shakeup my memory.... What has Finland past or present done to make the World a better place ?

[Skybird]

I fail to understand this East\West German situation. I mean Germany united is the size of Texas so you would think that the prosperous west would simply expand production into the east and vice verse. Is there some sort of economic blockade of east German industry by the west?

I just cannot understand how Germany has failed unify its two parts.
Its not as if Germany was split for centuries, People on both sides of the wall remember when there was no wall.

Both states developed very differently after WWII. I don't think you have two states in the Union that are as different as West and East Germany has been. Also, the US have been a very different state, migration-wise, than European states, european national self-understanding and defining of "identity" is very different than inamerican history. That is a difference you must take into account, although America is extremely vulnerable to constantly missing it - and then wondering why it's recipes that work in America do not work in other parts of the world as well.

Or in short: Germany or Europe are not Texas. :)

[Freiwillige]

Texans are Texans and Germans are Germans. And some Texans were Germans!

Germans are engineers and I would have thought that they would have just engineered a unified Germany by now. If East Germany lacks development then by god, Develop it! Its a win, win situation. The east gets jobs the west get new industrial ground.

Maybe I am just too dern American to wrap my head around this.

[CastleBravo]

Krauts? Please.

[OneToughHerring]

Just to shakeup my memory.... What has Finland past or present done to make the World a better place ?

All I'm saying is that now 20 years after the unification things are still pretty bleak in the former East-Germany.

Finns weren't as over-joyed about the 'victory' that US claimed to have achieved. Much of former East-Europe and former Soviet area is in shambles because the various governments are either corrupt or inept to deal with things.

Or, and this is the worst scenario, the west never really wanted any successful livin' for them to begin with and is therefore actively pushing the former socialist nations further down. I mean, after all they lost, they should be robbed of the wealth and live in poverty like the slaves of the Roman era. That's what it looks like to me.

[Schroeder]

Texans are Texans and Germans are Germans. And some Texans were Germans!

Germans are engineers and I would have thought that they would have just engineered a unified Germany by now. If East Germany lacks development then by god, Develop it! Its a win, win situation. The east gets jobs the west get new industrial ground.

Maybe I am just too dern American to wrap my head around this.
That isn't that simple. The economy in the east was totally run down. The companies were not designed to compete against each other. They either failed completely on the free market or had to be shut down because of environment and safety regulations (you did not have to see that you crossed the border to the DDR, you could smell it). Another thing is that a lot of western companies didn't see any reason for going to the east. The infrastructure was terrible and they were afraid that that the East-Germans were not used to work hard enough to compare to western workers (in socialism there was a right to have a job IIRC).

So far plenty of money has flown to the east but money alone doesn't solve the problem. The infrastructure has been vastly improved and several big factories were build in the East but even that is not enough.
Another problem is the rising of Nazism in some parts of the East. It definitely doesn't help to settle large international companies in those areas.

@OTH
I've never seen slaves that were given billions after billions of €.

[Skybird]

Texans are Texans and Germans are Germans. And some Texans were Germans!

Germans are engineers and I would have thought that they would have just engineered a unified Germany by now. If East Germany lacks development then by god, Develop it! Its a win, win situation. The east gets jobs the west get new industrial ground.

Maybe I am just too dern American to wrap my head around this.

Germans are engineers. That is like saying Americans are cowboys.

Some Germans are good engineers, but their knowledge since long is copied in other nations as well. and while some americans are cowboys indeed, other countries have farmers and cattle as well.

Economic realities were a bit harsher, we found out, than people 20 years ago imagined. not everything is possible to be realised in a desired way, just because it is wanted. The state cannot construct an economic system , he can only define and offer the framework in whioch economy unfolds. If the reality that is to be met is such that the framework of rules and defintions and invitations it offers does not attract investors and businessmen, then you cannot just wish it different. And this so far has been compensated, with varying success, by tremendous, incredible cashflow from West to East. Which is the reason why these stellar ammounts of money are not available for other purposes.

Reunification has proven to be hilariously expensive. they economic payoff from the effort do not compensate the investements, and it cannot be seen when it will do in the future. The better question is if it ever will do.

What is the richest state of the union? Texas? Maybe, I don't know for sure. Now compare it to let's say Montana, which I just learned is one of the poorest and economically most difficult terrains in the US (just have read a long piece of analysis and descriptionn about it that formed a whole long chapter in a book). Maybe the difference between the two states is not like the one between East and West Germans, neither in quality nor quantity, it is probably worse in Germany, but nevertheless - structural deficits and differences inside your system you have in the US, too. and lie us, you cannot just wish them away.

[Skybird]

Krauts? Please.
Hey, I am German, I can say that without being offended! :D
It is not different than us calling the British "Tommys" (if we had called them Charly, now that would have become one of history'S biggest jokes...)

Originally, this thread was about the reactions from Britain and France 20 years ago, and I mind you that not only did Mitterand line up with Thatcher who had some much more unpßolite things to say about Germany in 1989 and met Kohl with uptmost hostility, but - not mentioned in the articles since they completley ignored the American view of things - that Washington called in Moscow and asked them if they could intervene in Eastgermany to make things stop there so that control would not be lost over the situation.

Pretty much everybody - including ourselves - got simply overrolled by the speed by which events took place. In autumn 1989, I lft berlin and went to university in Osnabrück. I left a divided city, and five hours later I arrived in 450 km away Münster at my grandparents, as a first stop, which is 50 km SE of Osnbrück. there I was, having just left a sealed and dividec city - and my grandfather was greeting me five hours later with telling me in the door that the wall in Berlin had been opened in some places! Until then, we just had seen mass-escapes of Eastgermans making holiday in Hungary and pressing for being allowed to cross the border there. that it would end with the total collapse of the GDR, was not certain - and nobody saw it coming that quickly.

Seen that way, that there was panic in London, Paris and Washington, could be understood. as history has shown, it soon faded in just 2 or 3 months.

[OneToughHerring]

@OTH
I've never seen slaves that were given billions after billions of €.

Oh yea, they robbed that money. You're right. Those bastards!

That doesn't make the situation any better though, for anyone. Now we know they take our money too. What do we do now?

[Schroeder]

Oh yea, they robbed that money. You're right. Those bastards!

That doesn't make the situation any better though, for anyone. Now we know they take our money too. What do we do now?
Is there any point in your post?

[OneToughHerring]

Is there any point in your post?

How much money did Ukraine as a nation receive for the weapons that were taken/sold from it's armories to the western weapon merchants? How about the natural resources that Russia is forced to sell every year?

Like I said earlier, the west is actively keeping former East-Germany and other areas down.

[Thomen]

How much money did Ukraine as a nation receive for the weapons that were taken/sold from it's armories to the western weapon merchants? How about the natural resources that Russia is forced to sell every year?

Like I said earlier, the west is actively keeping former East-Germany and other areas down.

Wow.. once again you have no idea what you are talking about and try to spin some stuff so that it fits your little world view.

Since you brought it up: What has the Ukraine to do with what is going on in the eastern part of Germany?

[Schroeder]

Like I said earlier, the west is actively keeping former East-Germany and other areas down.
Do you really expect me to answer that BS?

[OneToughHerring]

Wow.. once again you have no idea what you are talking about and try to spin some stuff so that it fits your little world view.

Since you brought it up: What has the Ukraine to do with what is going on in the eastern part of Germany?

Both were 'liberated' by the West. Mostly of everything of value and natural resources but hey, no promises were made.

Schroeder,

why not, I answered to your "BS".

[VipertheSniper]

Both were 'liberated' by the West. Mostly of everything of value and natural resources but hey, no promises were made.

Schroeder,

why not, I answered to your "BS".

I wish we had a "Do not feed the trolls" smilie

[OneToughHerring]

I wish we had a "Do not feed the trolls" smilie

Please whatever you do, don't ask the citizens of the former eastern block nations how they feel about the 'new world order', their opinion about the subject is completely void. :roll:

I'm not trying to pick a fight here, I'd just like some recognition as to what exactly the whole post-unification of Germany era is about. I'm sure it's not a one-sided thing, like I said there was plenty of corrupt governments in the former eastern block nations. There were successes also, Czech was quick to capitalise on tourism and has risen into a pretty vibrant place. But there were horrible failures also like the former Yugoslavia.

But hey, troll away ya'll if you'd rather do that then discuss rationally.

[Thomen]

.... I'm not trying to pick a fight here, ...

Unfortunately, you constatly disqualify yourself and display other goals then a honest discussion.. :nope:

[antikristuseke]

Please whatever you do, don't ask the citizens of the former eastern block nations how they feel about the 'new world order', their opinion about the subject is completely void. :roll:


Oh I don't know, ever since we icked the soviets out of here things are better. I kind of like to actually be able to go to the beaches without being shot at and not being randomly strip searched when traveling from town to town. I'd say things have deffinatly improved.
That being said, quite a few former east block nations are still in the ****ter, but thats not really a change for them. As for the balkans, they might be doing better if they stop trying to kill eachother all the time.

[OneToughHerring]

Yes I would say Estonia is another success story. The west didn't do much about the Balkans although it had the chance, nobody either cared or didn't see it coming. And then all of a sudden there were concentration camps in Europe again. I guess today we are wiser, I hope.

[Skybird]

I knew that Thatcher and Bush senior tried to prevent unification and asked the Russians to send troops, and that Mitterand motivated Thatcher to expose herself over it, supporting the French desire to prevent reunification of Germany as well but without putting himself on display. What I did not know is that although Gorbatchev rejected the calls to send Soviet troops to East Germany, he nevertheless also was against German reunification - but like all others just learned that he got overrolled by the events. His acceptance of the new realities came later. But to say in defence of his honour, the use of force he ruled out from the very beginning on. By doing so, he played a much more honourable role than Bush, Thatcher or Mitterand, who called for the use of Soviet troops.

I start to understand that we have been extremely lucky that reunification took place. If events back then would have been accepted to be slowed down, maybe the Western and Soviet resistence would have become strong enough while there still was time, that today Germany would not be where it is now.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8265117.stm


The most spectacular change was the fall of the Berlin Wall, after which Germany drove full-speed towards reunification.

Mr Gorbachev was against it - and so, he learnt, were Mrs Thatcher and France's President Mitterrand.

But he discovered that the Western leaders were relying on him to block the process.

"They insisted unification should not go on, that the process should be stopped," he says.

"I asked them if they had any suggestions. They had only one - that somebody else should pull their chestnuts out of the fire."

He says they wanted him to say no and send troops, then adds: "That would be irresponsible. They were mistaken."

He repeats it for emphasis: "They were mistaken".

He feels let down by Western leaders who he thinks took advantage of Russian weakness in the 1990s, and are to quick to criticise now when Russia asserts itself.

There have been faint comments in German press some days ago, about the very intense attacks against that German Colonel ordering that airstrike in Afghanistan that took out two hijacked fuel tankers, killed scores of Taliban and apparantly also civilians. These comments said that the fury over that airstrike is not only a payback of old bills (since Germany so often has lectured others about how to wage civilised war while not participating in the dirty part of the job itself), but maybe also has something to do with the fact that this has been the first time that the german army showed the willingness to use massive force again, where as before the world was used to see the German army as kind of a social caretaking group that drills for water and raises hospitals - but is not capable or willing to show a display of violence in combat again that the Wehrmacht of the Third Reich was feared for.

I would not overestimate that argument, but I think there is a grain of truth in it.

[Dan D]

What is this?
You are probably not aware of it, but you sound like an arse.

Back on topic which is quite interesting actually.

Washington did not try to prevent unification.

The US position regarding German unification was this:
The Germans right of self-determination has to be respected: “No one except the Germans could decide the fate of Germany” (Baker in a letter to the German Chancellor, Febr. 10. 1990
http://books.google.de/books?id=cn8Ge46BhGoC&pg=PA793&lpg=PA793&dq=Baker%2BGerman+reunification&source=bl&ots=WcVKwPzYl-&sig=M0kbZkv8d_Scak4vhpb7OiCDdiM&hl=de&ei=zBe5So3KAYzr-Aac0bDHBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10#v=onepage&q=&f=false )

It was actually James Baker who persuaded the British representatives during negotiations in the night of Sept. 11/12 1990 to give up attempts to delay the unification process.

The negotiations in the end led to the “Treaty on the Final Settlement With Respect to Germany”, also called “2 plus 4 Agreement”: the two Germany’s plus the four former Allies (and winners) of WW II: Soviet Union, USA, UK, France.

This agreement formally put an end to WW2 and this form of agreement was chosen instead of a "peace treaty".

It is no coincidence that it was called “2 plus 4” agreement and not “4 plus 2” agreement.

The German unification changed the power balance in Europe and there were concerns not only by Britain and France but by many other European countries, in particular Poland, the Netherlands and Italy, who feared an overpowered Germany.

As a result of the treaty Germany regained full sovereignty. The Soviet troops were to leave Eastern Germany by 1994 and the “four powers” gave up their special status towards Germany.

In return, Germany is not allowed to have more than 370.000 armed forces personnel (which meant that Germany had to reduce its combined armed forces strength which was at about 500.000), no foreign armed forces are allowed in Eastern Germany, Germany has to be an ABC-Weapon-Free-Zone and finally Germany once and for all accepts the German-Polish borderline and is prevented from making future claims to former German territory east of the German-Polish border.

Sounds like a fair deal to me.

It is hard to believe that this has happened just 20 years ago.

[Skybird]

What is this?
You are probably not aware of it, but you sound like an arse.



Well, at least I am aware of that you just made yourself one. And off to the ignore list you go. This kind of tone and language is not to be accepted.

BTW, the American (and British) initial rejection of German reunification is historic fact, having been reported and referred to since the early or mid-90s in books, discussions and public media, both print and TV. Maybe not in American media. Which is understandable since it violates official self-description.

Hello and farewell. Can't say it was a pleasure to meet you.

[Lurchi]

BTW, the American (and British) initial rejection of German reunification is historic fact[...]
Sources?
That the UK (or should i better say Thatcher) and France were against reunification is pretty well-known. From what i know the US supported a unification right from the start and the Soviets were more or less bought with money.

I have problems to believe that a unification would have been possible against the will of all four allied nations. It were the US who finally persuaded both the french and Thatcher to give way ...:salute:

[Morts]

And off to the ignore list you go. This kind of tone and language is not to be accepted.
thats just weak skybird

[Skybird]

I read and heared and saw it so often since the mid-90s (I was still at university) and at times when I even did not had internet. Confirmations have been given by the Fnech and the russians before, both officials and pirvate professionals like historians, editors, etc. Former czhancellor Helmut Schnidt also confirmed it, as have adivisors and people in the surrounding of the Kohl government.

Note that it is said that only Thather behaved stubbornly against it for longer time, 2-3 konths or so, but was pretty much isolated in her own government. Washington on the other hand was, like EVERYBODY, against reunificationb, and I know since the 90s that5 they also asked the Russians, like Thather, to prevent reunfication be sending in troops. However - and this part you may not ignore - events overrolled everybody, and Russia from the very beginning (Gorbatchev), France and America short time later, and last Britain understood the signs of changing times and gave official acceptance of what already was fact in reality - the wall was broken down, and the iron curtain was no longer a curtain at all.

All major nations did not want a united germany, bot after WWI, the story of Nazi-Ger,any coming back in the second half, and then WWII. Evberybody had settled down in the cold war, and made himself a comfortable nest in his corner of the mutual arrangement between West and East. It was stable. The Germans were tamed. Why messing things up again when it worked so wonderful? The talking about how uch one suzpported reunification in the future was just the kind of talking polticoians do: pathetic, bombastic, emotional, and not meant real. It was to please the crowd in the street, so that they kept smiling, calm and under control. Reunification was meant to come, sure. At some unspecific, far far away in the future. The longer the better for the status quo. The status quo was what was wanted. Even Gorbatchev has just admitted in that loinked interview he did not want Germany to reunite. He just rejected the means to achieve that from the very beginning while the three Wetsern powers wehre openly asking Moscow to send troops to keep the status quo.

As I said somewhere above, maybe it was jst the sheer pace by which events unfolded that made sure reunification was already unstoppable when wetsenr powers still had doubts on whether or not to accept a united Germany in the heart of europe again. And thank God, different to Thatcher who met Kohl with icecold and unhidden hostility in public comments, France and America came back to their senses within a short time, less than a month, if I recall it correctly.

That were the days before the internet. ;)

[Skybird]

thats just weak skybird

Feel free to accept personal insults in your face, if you like. But I do not tolerate it if it is repeatedly, as in other cases, or is beyond a certain treshold limit from the beginning on, like here. It is below my standards, and in real life I throw such guests out.

Whether you find that weak or not, I do not ask you. As I see it, I solve a problem now and in the future that else would be a subject for the moderators. that is no censorship of mine, nor is it about differing opinion. It is about behaviour. And if minimum standards of behaviour are not kept, the given indiviudal I do not wish to have to deal with again.

End of issue. End of message.

End of story.

[heartc]

thats just weak skybird

When he puts someone on his "ignore list", he likes to hide behind his supposedly sensitive soul that cannot accept "insults" or "unreasonable" comments, while he's very good at dishing out that very same medicine himself all the time.
Almost everyone who doesn't fall for his rhetorical smokescreen and is contradicting him in earnest more than once - and is not a mod at the same time - will end up in this exquisite club.

All you need to know about this character is that he loves to preach, but never likes to listen.

[August]

When he puts someone on his "ignore list", he likes to hide behind his supposedly sensitive soul that cannot accept "insults" or "unreasonable" comments, while he's very good at dishing out that very same medicine himself all the time.
Almost everyone who doesn't fall for his rhetorical smokescreen and is contradicting him in earnest more than once - and is not a mod at the same time - will end up in this exquisite club.

All you need to know about this character is that he loves to preach, but never likes to listen.

Ok I just have to :D

[August]

There might have been a bit of trepidation by some aging WW2 vets but American public opinion at the time was pretty much reflected in the phrase "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down that wall". After all, by the late '80's there was a heckuva lot more of us who had spent time defending Germany than there were who had spent time fighting it.

[Schroeder]

I remember a joke from shortly after the reunification.
"Germany needs to stay separated! An arse has always two parts."

BTW Mitterrand and Thatcher didn't want to stop the reunification. It was just that they loved Germany so much that they were glad there were two of them.
:D

[Dowly]

I remember a joke from shortly after the reunification.
"Germany needs to stay separated! An arse has always two parts."

BTW Mitterrand and Thatcher didn't want to stop the reunification. It was just that they loved Germany so much that they were glad there were two of them.
:D

LMAO! :rotfl2:

[HunterICX]

:haha: Nice one Schroeder

HunterICX

[Jimbuna]

I remember a joke from shortly after the reunification.
"Germany needs to stay separated! An arse has always two parts."

BTW Mitterrand and Thatcher didn't want to stop the reunification. It was just that they loved Germany so much that they were glad there were two of them.
:D

Similar is said of two parts of the UK :DL

[August]

Similar is said of two parts of the UK :DL

Which two? Isn't there at least three? England, Scotland and Wales?

[Shearwater]

It's double ass time - don't forget Northern Ireland (the cleft is quite substantial).




EDIT: So THIS is what TF was referring to when he said 'Wild night in Bangkok'. I thought I was in for a pleasant surprise ... :( ... ;)

[Jimbuna]

Which two? Isn't there at least three? England, Scotland and Wales?

There's actually four, counting Northern Ireland.....much depends on which area you hail from :03:

[August]

There's actually four, counting Northern Ireland.....much depends on which area you hail from :03:


A four cheeked arse? Now i'm really confused! :hmmm: