CUTIE mine/torpedo?

[DigitalAura]

So how the heck do I use these? They run 12kts and home in on the props...which is slightly useless...because it generally causes these torpedo/mines to miss altogether.

you can have a 700 yard shot all lined up and centred down the pipe... and it will always veer into the props and miss.

Only way I can think they will work is if what you're shooting is running away from you...and even then, if it's faster than 12kts, it'll escape. :stare:

[Torplexed]

I've used them to disable escorts, preferably before they know of your presence. Once the escort(s) is crippled the merchants are easy pickings. :ping:

[Armistead]

I seldom use them, but they can come in handy. Most dd's will outrun them. Sometimes If I have a wounded ship I'll send one. The main thing is to be close and best shot as the target is moving away.

[DigitalAura]

As I said though, regardless of how close... if a DD knows it's coming it will invariably out run it with no problem.

[Rockin Robbins]

Yup, the cutie is both quite effective and frustrating to use. In the real war, the cutie had several confirmed hits on escorts. Interestingly the German homing torpedoes had no recorded hits at all, in spite of what look on paper to be superior characteristics. Whether that was due to technical superiority or just better tactics doesn't appear to be known.

I like to use a cutie in an environment where I have multiple escorts looking for me. I'll set Mr. Cutie for a zero gyro shot out of a rear tube and loose him from as deep as the game will allow. This should be done while the escorts are deliberately searching at slower speeds. It is particularly effective if they are circling around.

Now Mr Cutie usually just wants to get out of there, never to be seen again, but you can use my "Cutie on a Leash" technique for some really interesting fishing. When the Cutie is perhaps 1000 or 1500 yards away, secure from silent running and hit ahead emergency. This will turn the Cutie. You can time this to aim the Cutie where you wish him to go. Just go back to silent running and the Cutie will continue in a straight line.

Most of the time there is one place that is prime real estate: directly over your submarine! Your burst of power is the dinner bell for escorts as well as the Cutie, and when both try to occupy the same address very interesting things tend to happen.

You can play Cutie on a Leash with a single torpedo for at least fifteen minutes, calling him back each time he gets out of his playpen. Even with that, the chances of a hit might be 50% or less. But it sure is a lot of fun!

[DigitalAura]

LOL...that's bloody hilarious, RR... "Cutie On A Leash". I can imagine the communication at the bridge in one of those DD's. "MY GAWD, It's coming back! Hard to port! Kill the throttle! ... whew... now, where's that sub...what? It's coming back again? gah!"


:up: I'll definitely try it again then! It sounds to me like the cutie doesn't NEED to actually hit to do damage... I mean, the confusion and frustration that it causes is worth the price of a regular torpedo. I really wish we could hear their radio chatter..LOL

[Zilch]

Using your own engine sounds to pull an acoustic torpedo around? That takes some brains and some berries...

Kind of reminds me of what SEAD is like, in some respects:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEAD

[mookiemookie]

Interestingly the German homing torpedoes had no recorded hits at all, in spite of what look on paper to be superior characteristics.

Not true. 640 GNATs were fired for a total of 58 hits. Disappointing results to be sure, but they were also foiled by the FOXER countermeasure.

http://books.google.com/books?id=TpJTNm6eKEMC&pg=PA264&lpg=PA264&dq=zaunkonig+torpedo&source=bl&ots=k4vNZZVokt&sig=GudmvLn22h9S3lYa4y51M9ssuK4&hl=en&ei=VI2mSvLQMMmz8Qb7juDnCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3#v=onepage&q=zaunkonig%20torpedo&f=false
(http://books.google.com/books?id=TpJTNm6eKEMC&pg=PA264&lpg=PA264&dq=zaunkonig+torpedo+640+58&source=bl&ots=k4vNZZVokt&sig=GudmvLn22h9S3lYa4y51M9ssuK4&hl=en&ei=VI2mSvLQMMmz8Qb7juDnCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3#v=onepage&q=zaunkonig%20torpedo%20640%2058&f=false)

[Inner Sound]

RR that was brilliant.

IIrc the German acoustic homing torpedo was foiled by the simple expedient of towing a length of chain behind your ship. It would rattle in the wash and divert the torpedos' curiosity. But this may just be a bit of patriotic jingo, don't know.

[Rockin Robbins]

Not true. 640 GNATs were fired for a total of 58 hits. Disappointing results to be sure, but they were also foiled by the FOXER countermeasure.

http://books.google.com/books?id=TpJTNm6eKEMC&pg=PA264&lpg=PA264&dq=zaunkonig+torpedo&source=bl&ots=k4vNZZVokt&sig=GudmvLn22h9S3lYa4y51M9ssuK4&hl=en&ei=VI2mSvLQMMmz8Qb7juDnCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3#v=onepage&q=zaunkonig%20torpedo&f=false
(http://books.google.com/books?id=TpJTNm6eKEMC&pg=PA264&lpg=PA264&dq=zaunkonig+torpedo+640+58&source=bl&ots=k4vNZZVokt&sig=GudmvLn22h9S3lYa4y51M9ssuK4&hl=en&ei=VI2mSvLQMMmz8Qb7juDnCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3#v=onepage&q=zaunkonig%20torpedo%20640%2058&f=false)
How right you are! I'll bet the source I remember was only talking about the Falke.

However many of those "hits" were just premature explosions that only hurt the fish. According to U-Boat Aces.com (http://www.uboataces.com/torpedo-tv.shtml), "However the Zaunkonig was prone to premature detonation, and since the launching U-boat had to dive deep; and unable to positively confirm the success, many times premature explosions were misconstrued as a hit – leading to somewhat exaggerated claims of its effectiveness. It was not until spring of 1944 that Donitz began to suspect the Zaunkonig was not as effective as he had hoped for."

Either way the German homing torpedoes must be counted a success. The Foxer devices made so much noise that they interfered with Allied ASW sonar and were audible for many more miles than the noise of the convoy itself, calling in the U-Boats who normally might have missed the convoy altogether! If the Zaunkonigs didn't get 'em, the normal G7a and G7e torpedoes came out to play and they scored big time. In this one, Allies lose by being successful against the homing torpedoes.

I'd guess the 58 hits are pretty wildly exxagerated, but the hits by other torpedoes made possible by Allied overreaction causing sunk ships by calling in U-Boats who otherwise wouldn't be there, to the best of my knowledge, has never and probably cannot be counted.

I'd say it probably dwarfs the 58 claimed hits above and measures in the hundreds.

[Armistead]

Cutie on a leash..I've done that many times, but never had a name for it.

It really works great and I've never been hit by one.

Any idea how deep you can go and still get it to chase you.

What I was wondering, once you set the depth on them, could they actually home in at a deeper depth. Usually when I get them going in the right direction I cut the engines and go deep.

But it's dang hard with contacts and cams off. Getting them to chase you and listening to sonar takes some work and you really have no clue how close. When I know I have it on a constant bearing on my stern, I then will drive it where I want. Still, unless you have cams and contacts on, it's about impossible to do and you can bet no Skipper tried that tactic during the war.

[Frederf]

Is it realistic to be able to turn a cutie with your own engines? I wouldn't think the sound detection in the torpedo was a full 360°. I'd guess more like +/-50°.

[Rockin Robbins]

I doubt seriously whether it would be possible to do Cutie on a Leash with a real submarine. Our model is a bit deficient here.

In the game I've led Cuties around from 200', which is a real hoot. Unlike many of you, I VERY seldom descend below 250' in any event, valuing the advantage of ability to get to periscope depth rather quickly and do harm to the enemy over that of hiding deep. I'm getting these authentic RSRD shallow water missions into 150' of water too often anyway.:haha:

[DigitalAura]

I've never ever been deeper than 250'.
When I hit "D" to dive, it almost always stops at 250' and levels out. I've never figured out how to go deeper...but never really needed to either. Always chalked it up to the porpoise class sub.

:hmmm:

[Stealhead]

That depends on what version of the game you have if stock then your max depth is as high as the deep gauge will go 450ft or whatever it says.If you have TMO then you can dive via set dives planes deep as far as you dare to go stopping it by ordering to level off or if you go too far and you get turned into a can of peaches.I think the same goes for RFB.In stock format you must click a deep depth on the deep gauge it should go there but maybe it does level off I have not played stock in some time.

TMO also was tuned to allow you to open tubes at 150 ft I think (not sure just started playing TMO 1.8 again after a few months off) so that you can use the cuties to better effect as they where designed to be fired at depths greater than your run of the mill torpedo shots.

I have also seen a leash like effect once where a DD dropped some cans at what he thought was me:arrgh!: and the noise of the cans exploding made the cutie head is his direction and pick o up his engine and it had been way off course based on my hydrophone.That DD was trying to kill me and ended up killing himself.

[DigitalAura]

ROFL! Seriously? DC's called the cutie back? LOL :yeah:

[Stealhead]

It was most likely the DCs going off likely as they are very loud and I have seen the cuties they can be headed in one direction and a pretty noisy vessel might be 4 or 500 yds to it 180 and the cutie will never "hear".

Like RR has said SH4 cant really simulate fully how the cuties really worked.I read some place that they had a 33% success rate not to shabby when you consider how advanced the technology of them was. Barb I know for sure sank a ship with a cutie it actually was below the ship and hit smack on the bottom they had to move the Barb fast as they where at risk of the ship hitting them as it went down. I read in some other submarine book I of a second hand account of a sub that was in trouble in shallow water using one against a DD and getting their skins saved last but not least the Torsk sank the last Japanese ship of the war with a cuite again it was used against a merchant ship.

Game wise the cuties can be pretty fun once you get the hang of how they operate.I most times carry one in the aft tubes just in case.I find that a well timed cutie can confuse the living crap out of pursuing vessels as they are going to think that of course that was a regular fish and based on that notion get completely off your trail.Even if the cutie only damages an escort the confusion still works and I like to confuse my foes fighting fair in war is for suckers.

I really wish that you could load a tube with some oil filled cans and some trash and shoot it so the IJN thinks that they got you.

If it is going to be a fist fight bring a knife a knife fight bring a gun a gun fight bring a cannon.

[Bubblehead1980]

took a long time to get success with the Cuties but ive had 3 or 4 kills with them in TMO.....First time, one was on a aux subchaser in 1945 in sea of japan....he was 1200 yards away...closing at 12 knots, i was 1200 yards off his track, fired it strait out at bearing 180, 0 AOB, 0 speed....just as the subchaser passed 180, the cutie arrived at same time, and was active by then so locked onto the props but couldnt hit since the target was making 12 knots(had external cam enabled back then), so i went to flank speed, the subchaser turned to come after me, thus slowing down, cutie closed in and BOOM...takes it prop and rudder off...it sank by the stern 10 minutes later.

Other time I took out a Horai Maru troopship with it(just fired 4 cuties in stern tubes into a convoy, let them seek out...four hits, three ships damaged, one sank.Took the Horai Maru's rudder and prop off and left a nice hole in its stern since i set it for the 28 foot draft..she went down by the stern.

Others i hit were DD's that were disabled but did not go down.

As far as RR's cutie on a leash, nice robins.I played around once to see if could get it to chase me, it did.Doubt i'd pull that if playing a serious campaign in TMO, esp since usually play with external camera off.Wonder if real any subs were lost to their own Cuties?


One key is set it to run deep enough so it hits the props...if ship has a draft of 20 feet, set it to run at 20 feet.Takes time but youll get it eventually.

[DigitalAura]

Thanks bubble..that's what I tried last night and it worked. It's no good to simply fire the cutie at perpendicular when the target is already at your zero. I was treating it like I could just shoot it and it would home in... but you still have to lead the sucker like a regular torpedo and AoB is everything it seems.
90 degrees seems to be not the best approach, but shooting as the ship passes with the closest part of the ship being its engines and AoB of 20 or 30 seems to get the cutie's attention.

I like your idea of tricking the enemy to slow him down! SWEEEEET! :yeah:

[Armistead]

I'll never forget the time I took 10 of them all loaded first. First convoy I let loose all 10 at different angles. So funny, bout every minute another boom.

[DigitalAura]

HAHAHAH... now that's worth a try just for the external cam amusement!

[Stealhead]

I highly doubt that any subs where lost to cuties mainly due to the fact they where fired under very strict guidelines and no skipper or crew in real life would dare use that leash trick.I would guess that a sub might have carried one maybe two cuties in late 44/45.They where pretty much a special use weapon not something that would be used very often.Though it seems many skippers did like them which would imply that they had good faith that the cuties where not going to commit fratricide aginst its own sub so long as they where fired under the correct conditions.

Also the cutie was truly an air dropped "mine" called FIDO(Mk.24) that was designed to destroy U-boats something that would have never been going over 12knts submerged and had a thin hull that the 95lbs of torpex would have ripped apart with ease it was called a mine to fool German intel as to the true nature of the weapon the FIDOS where pretty effective and I dont think the Germans ever knew that some of thier subs where getting destroyed by a "seeking" weapon ignorance is not always bliss .The Mk.27 was basically an air dropped FIDO that had some wooden "fins" added so that it could be fired from a torpedo tube and was supposed to be a last ditch defensive weapon.