Turn off the lights

[Skybird]

Since September 1st, the first step in the EU's prohibition program for conventional light bulbs is in effect. Light bulbs of 100W and more and all lightbulbs with frosted glass are prohibited to be produced in the EU, or to be imported. Until 2012, almost all other types of lightbulbs will follow, with the exception of bulbs for special uses. In 2016, even halogen lamps not qualifying for an energy efficiency class of C or even B - currently even energy-saving halogen lights are far from that - will follow and get banned as well.

Halleluja oh my brothers and sisters! the future has been saved. What we get is the pale, colourless moonlight of compact flouroscent tubes (that's what energy saving bulb technically are). Cold, colourless, emotionally unsatisfying, with many frequencies of the lightspectrum missing that characterise sunlight or the light of fire that we got so fond of since millenias. The spectrum featuring the colours of red are totally underrepresented, almost nonexistent in these lamp's light. Seen that way it perfectly matches a boring life in a bureaucratic, cold world. And it gives moral activist the good feeling of saving planet Earth. Halleluja, brothers and sister, enlightenment is near!

Who cares that calculations showed that in germany, 80% of families of 3 and 4 persons usually use only 1,5 - 2% of their overall energy costs for light, when counting together heating, warm water, gas, cooking, electric devices in the household etc. Changes in that tiny part of the budget really make the difference. On the other hand, plasma and huge LCD displays, especially if brightness and contrast settings pushed up, consume much more power than CRTs. These diabolic displays also become warm, sometimes VERY warm!

Well, I surely defend that claim that there is man-made global warming taking place. But I also insist on saying that hysteric and symbolic actions like banning light bulbs are not featuring the effectiveness that is needed in order to influence things in any subnstantial way. If we desire to make a climatic difference without massacring 90% of the planets human population, then the ordinary household will need to give up much, incredibly much more than just a relative bagatell-detail like light bulbs.

Who cares that Germany's biggest ecologic consumer test institute as well as several other examinations found that the advertisement promises made for compact flourescent tubes are lies. Cheap imports from Asia could last only half as long as classic light bulbs (!), and even high quality energy-saving bulbs from western production usually last only half of the hours the producer claims for his product. Energy-consummation of the energy-saving bulbs almost never matches the values given for them, they consume significantly more energy. their light power is lower than said (they are darker than is printed on the box), and briughtness declines further over it's lifetime. the light quality is inferior, and also additionally declines over time. and especially bulbs being switched on and off a lot can see their longevity being reduced to just a fraction of what the producer claims, even when he labels them as robust to often switching them on and off. It is claimed that this has been improved - but the test did not find results that back that claim.

These lamps contain mercury. Imported lamps sometimes can have 50-100 times more mercury than lamps produced in the EU. You really want to bet your money on people giving all such light bulbs back in the shops? I bet my money that the intoxication of household trash with mercury will skyrocket. And everytime you break such a light bulb at home, you risk serious health damage due to the mercury vapors, which will form immediately especially if the lamp was shining (=warm) when it broke. By EU legislations on environmental protection, an expert said on the radio, by law you are obliged to call the environmetal police every time you break such a lamp. Hahaha, I could laugh myself to death.

Who cares about electromagnetic radiation, 30-500 times higher than in halogen lamps, it is still advised not to run these lamps near your head and body for longer time, and keep a distance that for exmaple prohibit to use them as a working light on your desk. Using them as reading lamps or at your bed are a no-no, too.

Most obvious still is the bad light quality. You can print on the package "warm-white" as often as you want, these bulbs's light-spectrum is anything than that. You can see them as warm-white only if you close your eyes and have an ideology to defend. I have a 20W energy saver in my cellar, by Osram, one of the globes premium suppliers, and it was expensive. We have yellow garbage sacks in Germany, for recycling waste. In the light of this lamp, it is not yellow, but poisenous green. I tried another energy-saver my parents brought for testing. The sacks still shine green. In my kitchen, I had energy bulbs for a short time, by Phillips, the world's largest lamp manufacturer. The colour red turned into brown. Pink became light-brown-grey. faces looked like those of zombies. Meat looked rotten. Vegetables looked - strange.

Thanks, but no thanks at all.

revealing it is how the way was paved for energy saving bulbs. they had been developed during times when nobody cared for energy balances and environmental protection. Already several years ago most western manufacturers had stopped to produce ordinary light bulbs and left that to Asian contractors or rivals - long before the prohibition in australia was even discussed. Producers were hoping for the big profitable business with selling energy-saving light bulbs costing ten times as much as regular light bulbs. to their dissapointment, people did not buy them. What to do? Yes, you guessed right - start lobbying in Brussel that citizens in Europe must be forced to give the producers the profits they demanded. Let's prohibit classic light bulbs, leabving them no choice anymore - and sell it to the crowds as an environmental protection story in order to sielnce any criticism for this lobbying! Et voila - there we are, and everything speaking against flourescent tubes gets ignored and denied - although the criticism is quite plenty, and substantial. The EU in the main is an ELU: an European Lobby Union.

Germans are born sceptics. In the past months, sales of regular light bulbs have increased by 35-70%. They bought to hoard them, it was PANIC!!! What it means is that the EU will need to wait much longer than expected until the classic light bulb dies out. I myself plan to hoard the new energy-saving halogen- bulbs I almost exclusively use, for not too bright halogen light is perfect for me and right of the colour that I am looking for in order to feel comfortable at home. Oover the coming 5 years, I will make sure to stockpile enough to feed all my current lamp types for the coming 20-30 years, even when 2016 the lights go out for halogen as well. I have tested energy saving bulbs, and found their light terrible. I see them in many places and shops, and immediately and reliably can differ the fluorescent light tubes from classic light bulbs, it is an obvious difference, always, like between a red and a green traffic light, as long as you do not defend a politic agenda over it and thus rate ideology over realistic visual perception.

you are forbidden to import prohibited classic light bulbs for business purposes, but you can still bring them in from outside the EU for personal use, in according lower quantities. Be careful when thinking of bringing US light bulbs with you, they use 110 V over there, while we have 230V in Europe. US light bulbs do not work in our lamps, they say.

the future is LED anyway, but currently LED only work very well in torchlights and for special pruproses, but not in regular-shaped light bulbs, they are still too dark and too expensive, and the light quality for these purposes is still very bad (too white). the ideal would be LED bulbs copying the colpour of corrent light bulbs, but so far I have not seen a single LED type that comes even close to that. However, LEDs save even more energy-saving bulbs, they are not poisenous, they have a really longer longevity, so if they get the colours right these will be a good thing indeed. I love my LED bike lights and my LED pocket light, pumping out 225 lumens from a lamp the size of a writing pencil. But as a replacement for light bulbs inside the house they still are not good enough in colour and brightness. I hope they get there, but on the colour I am sceptic. Pefectcly totally white light is exactly not what you want in your living room, but the typical orange glow of fire, and sunlight.

Until then, what comes next? Banning open fireplaces, and candles over concerns for dust, smoke particles, CO2 and and christmas trees going ablaze? Well, when it comes to the EU's reasonable acting, I rule out nothing anymore and consider everything possible that could rather be imagined.

[SteamWake]

So... there going to play soccer in the dark then?

Stadium lights typically 1,000 watt metal halide each light on a standard of typcially 8 to 12 lights.

Oh and you know what those energy efficent lamps use? Vaporized mercury. What happens when it comes time to dispose of all those? Isnt that a bit of a hazard?

Great advances have been made recently in LED lighting however they just dont have the output compriable to other sources. In fact the Illumination Engineering Society or IES are scrambling to re-write the rules on how to measure lighting levels. A thing called "percieved brightness".


What a crock.

[XabbaRus]

Please Skybird is it necessary to post such a long comment? I have to disagree with you. We have them all over my house and see no difference and have had not one problem with headaches etc...

I still think it is daft with how they have gone about it, basically undermining free choice.

[Schroeder]

Yeah, this sucks hard.
I bet those guys in Brussels have their pockets full of money from the lobbyists.:nope:

@Xabba

Then you are lucky we have some of those energy saving things too and their light does either suck or it takes 3-4 minutes until they reach their normal brightness.

[FIREWALL]

Please Skybird is it necessary to post such a long comment? I have to disagree with you. We have them all over my house and see no difference and have had not one problem with headaches etc...

I still think it is daft with how they have gone about it, basically undermining free choice.

That's why I never read half the crap he posts. :haha:

I start getting a headache at about the third paragraph. :damn: :haha:

[Skybird]

Please Skybird is it necessary to post such a long comment?


Nobody forces oyu to read it. comments by people, short and long, brief debates and long one, so fgar have not been a problem in this forum. Only if there are ten threads on one and the same issue.

I have to disagree with you. We have them all over my house and see no difference and have had not one problem with headaches etc...


Well, I can show you the differences, always, no matter whether or not the bulbs are covered or not, no matter other lights being close or the testing object standing isolated, no matter the bulb being covered by coloured glass shields or not. And no, I do not have Superman eyes. If you do not see the differences in light quality, then you claim to see things that simply are not there: you claim to see plenty of missing frequencies in the emitted light that would be necessary to make the light comparable in colour to a classic light bulb. You could as well say you see no differenc ebetween moonlight and sunlight. But both have different spectrums when hitting the surface of planet earth. And you see it.

In other words: you claim to see a phantom then. the colours you claim to see are not there, and every technician can prove you that with a simple spectrum analysis. the miss is so huge that it is not just a minor diference of academic interest only, but cannot be avoided to be taken note of, inevitably. I can reliably see it very easily in EVERY comparison you could set up. and the difference is so huge that it seriously irritates me.

I note it every time I am in a department store and pass the light corner where they have dozens if not hundreds of bulbs of different brightness and type burning simultaneously. even the scattering light radiation does not make me failing in identifying what lamp has what bulb.

The difference is less, of course, if you compare energy saving lights to regular (huge) fluorescent tubes that we already have since decades. In principle, energy saving bulbs are like these, just smaller in size. But what sane mind uses these, big or small, in his living rooms...? I can only imagine a person not caring a bit for his living place at all, and being imune to perception of a place's looks and atmosphere and comfort.

It's light that is is okay for the stairs, the cellar, the garage - places that have a function only, but need no living quality.

[SteamWake]

Just as a side note LED's have the 'purest' light output as far as color, strobing, and lumen depreciation. The problem is they just dont spit out the lumens that other sources. Most LED fixtures are a cluster of LED's a dozen or so per lamp. Yep there more energy efficent yes they have longer life (except for early failure which is quite common). But the up front costs are far far greater than other sources.

Fluorescent lamps have been around for centurys. When they were fist introduced there were lots of these types of claims hedaches, poor color, cause cancer yadda yadda none of them (except color) have any basis in fact.

Even with what is known as CRI or color rendering index great advances have been made through the use of exotic metals :o in the suspended gas to get closer to 'white light'.

Incandescent light also has very poor CRI tending towards the red 'warm' end of the spectrum. They give your skin that 'glow' this is why they are preferred for bathrooms and make up studios.

Go ahead and argue with me on this topic but it is my area of expertiese.

If you want to use compact fluroescent to light your home go ahead. You will save money on your utility bills. They wont kill your pets or give you headaches. They do contain very hazordous chemicals. But you will save money.

No this type of legislation is really nothing more than an effort to gain control over you a tiney piece at a time.

[Skybird]

Even with what is known as CRI or color rendering index great advances have been made through the use of exotic metals :o in the suspended gas to get closer to 'white light'.

Perfectly white light is exactly what most people DO NOT want in their living places! The...


red 'warm' end of the spectrum.

...that...

give your skin that 'glow'

... is what most people prefer to have in the light for their living areas! That it reminds of the setting sun corresponds with the changing physiological conditions of your body at the end of the day when the organism is coming to rest and prepares to sleep, it also gives us psychological satisfaction to have a light that compares a bit to the light of fire. that'S why candle light for most people has a very intimate, emotional meaning that perfectly white light simply does not acchieve.

I want to just hint at mecial research showing that the human physiology and the hormone homeostasis even reacts to/is effected by light even with the eyes being shielded and not percieving the light. Correspondingly, lack of light and lack of certain light waves/frequencies have physiologixal consequences too. It can make us serious ill, it can affect both our physis or our psyche - or both.

Some people claim to get headaches from energy saving bulbs, and it is believable that people are sensible in varying degrees here. I for example get burning eyes if needing to stay in rooms with classic flourescent tubes' light for longer time. I know that medical examinations have shown light quality to influence the physiological arousement level of people, and as an (ex-)psychologist I am not surprised that light plays a role in how easily or difficult people can come to sleep. In the medical field, we are talking about individual threshholds here, and that means some people may be sensitive to a variable, while others are not. Treshholds even change for every individual eventuelly, over the course of the day.

[Task Force]

So what are they gonna do... have the light bulb patrol. lol

[Respenus]

I have nothing more to add than what has already been said, yes just to support XabbaRus, I have them in my study and I must say, I am more satisfied with energy saving bulbs than with ordinary ones. Since they are on during the dark months at least 8 hours a day if not more, they do the job perfectly. The last time I checked, I wasn't a fathom either, so I guess it does come down to each individual if he likes the new bulbs or not.

I agree about the ELU though and I'm getting more pissed off by the day.

[Jimbuna]

I've never used an energy saving bulb yet and the only reason is because of the initial outlay.

Time to start saving for a few I suppose.

[Tchocky]

Meh.

Save money, last longer.

I will content myself with not caring about how the light makes me feel.

[Kapitan]

Sigh looks like its time to crack out the candles its going to be like living in a permanant power cut :(

[Hakahura]

Another pointless EU ruling forced on us.
Small incandescent lightbulbs can no longer be produced. Once the stocks in the shops have gone, they are gone.

Great I have a total of 14 fitting in my house that can accept nothing but the small incandescent bulbs due to there physical size!

So I'm forced to buy up as many of the planet killers as I can.
What happens when they've gone?

*********g Euro ****s!

[Kapitan]

I think the EU wants to ruin the UK we need to get out of it fast its already done alot of damage, in my industry nearly 18,000 have left due to the new CPC ruling most being younger drivers handing back licences and older drivers just retiring early so theres a massive void there of new recruites and seasoned vetrans all because some bureacrat needs to prove he has something to do.

Burocratic bo***ks

[nikimcbee]

I've never used an energy saving bulb yet and the only reason is because of the initial outlay.

Time to start saving for a few I suppose.
What? the whale oil ones aren't working out?

[Task Force]

Wait... dont these bulbs have mercury in them...:o I believe they do...

[Tchocky]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_fluorescent_lamp#Mercury_emissions

Some info on the mercury issue.

[nikimcbee]

econannystate-ism:har:
wait we have it here to...
nevermind:dead:

[Task Force]

hmm... a lightbulb falling and breaking will never be the same over there. lol

[nikimcbee]

That's why I never read half the crap he posts. :haha:

I start getting a headache at about the third paragraph. :damn: :haha:
Just wait for it to come out on cliff notes.:yeah:

[nikimcbee]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_fluorescent_lamp#Mercury_emissions

Some info on the mercury issue.

Well, just wait. the EU can create special blue-helmet clean up teams to clean it up, but they will need to take over your house for a week while they decontaminate your house/flat.

http://img4.allvoices.com/thumbs/event/480/385/34453037-chinese-un.jpg

[SteamWake]

Wait... dont these bulbs have mercury in them...:o I believe they do...

Sigh.. why do I even bother :oops:

[XabbaRus]

Well SKybird we will have to agree to disagree because I would say that the light coming off my energy saving bulbs that I have in my living room or the dinig room is giving off a "warm" light, not harsh at all. In fact I can see a flourescent which is in my kitchen and it is quite harsh and light whilst the energy savers I can see in my living room are warm.....

And yes no one forces me to read the posts however I all too often get the feeling you write things and that you are right and everyone else is wrong...

[FIREWALL]

Just wait for it to come out on cliff notes.:yeah:


It's just that he writes an essay about a lightbulb. :-?

Hasn't he ever heard of " 25 words or less " :haha:

[Aramike]

To be honest, I agree with Xabba regarding the energy-saving bulbs. Its funny because the wife and I just went through the process. We were trying to find "cooler" bulbs for our bathroom because that's what we've grown accostomed to recently, and two out of the three bulbs burnt out. We ended up having to settle for "warmer" ones when we couldn't handily find adequate replacements.

But, on the other hand, I do agree that the banning of bulbs borders on ludicrous... :yep:

[OneToughHerring]

It's just that he writes an essay about a lightbulb. :-?

Hasn't he ever heard of " 25 words or less " :haha:

How about concentrating the subject of the thread instead of attacking others? People could say things about your use of larger fonts (?).

[Thomen]

How about concentrating the subject of the thread instead of attacking others?

How about you heed your own words.. ;)

[FIREWALL]

How about concentrating the subject of the thread instead of attacking others? People could say things about your use of larger fonts (?).

They do. :yep: :yawn:


edit: Speaking of attacks. You've attacked about half the regular posters here.

Dudes like you come and go from these sites.:yep:

I'm sure the last site you were on was glad to see you go. :haha:

[XabbaRus]

OT open post to Firewall and Herring. Cut it out. I'm watching the pair of you.

[Aramike]

Soooo ... how's 'bout them bulbs ... :D

[baggygreen]

They banned imports of old-style globes in australia a couple of years ago.

all that is left is stock that was already in the country, and there's precious little of that left.

I'll be happy to use energy efficient globes, when the truth is told about them.

I compared the 2 only last week.

ordinary, 60W globe, compared to a 15W, "equivalent to 60W" globe.

huge difference between the 2. the 15W fell on the bad side of a 40W globe as well.

This is ignoring the fact that any breakage requires a trip to stay in a hotel after visiting a decontamination unit, whilst your house is cleaned from top to bottom.

in australia at least, introducing nuclear power will save more energy than banning globes ever will

[SteamWake]

Just had a sales rep come through my office displaying various LED based lights and systems.

All I can say is the advances made in the last three years is absolutley stunning. The leds are available in a wide variety of kelvin tempratures many emulating the warm white color of incandescent lamps and even colored lamps red, blue, green or combinations thereof.

50,000 hour lamp life with little lumen depreciation.

Quite impressive stuff.

http://www.mplighting.com/Lfamily.aspx

[FIREWALL]

Flor light bulbs aren't so pricey here if you go to a discount place like Costco.

I have them thru out the house and don't notice any difference except in the power bill.:woot:

[Jimbuna]

What? the whale oil ones aren't working out?

hehe :DL


http://www.milesstair.com/Pictures/Sterling_Risdon.jpg

[KG_Jag]

If you need instant strong light--the energy savers don't do the job. I am also concerned about the enhanced problems of a broken bulb with them. In my experience, they don't provide as much useful light as equivalently rated old style bulbs--which is increasingly important with my aging eyes.

We use the old types (e.g. best for garage door openers) and the energy savers, selecting the one most appropriate for the job.

I sure don't need any government making these choices for me. If ever comes the day where said government pays my electric bills without taking the money from one of my neighbors, there might be something to talk about on the subject.

[Blacklight]

There ARE some types of florescent bulbs that annoy me and other types that I have no problem with. I assume that it depends on the manufacturer. Most of the bulbs in my apartment are flourescent. It cut my electric bill in half when I changed those bulbs. I wonder if everyone converts to the florescents if it will cause revenue losses for the electric companies considering the savings I got from them.

[Skybird]

Having calculated my electricity bill at the beginning of this year and measured power consummation of all my household devices, I did some math and since know that of my monthly electricity bill of close to 40 Euros, 20-25% goes for each

- PC system
- TV, Video, HiFi
- kitchen devices, bread baker, stove, refrigerators.

The rest is light, roughly around 30%, making for 12 Euros, roughly.

I use energy.-reduced halogen light for the most. Plus several special lamps of low Watts for indirect, comfortable lights around the living room. In a perfect energy-saving bulb world, they claim, I would save 80% over normal bulbs, which I do not have anymore. I save less over halogen lights. Plus: tests show that energy-savers do not save you 80%, not even close to it. The biggest failure in the test was a premium brand energy saver, and the most expensive it was, too - and it consumed even MORE power than its classical bulb pendant! that is not the norm, but what I am after is that these things are far from perfect.

Let'S estimate energy savers would help me to reduce my electricity bill by 50 or 60%, which is a fair guess.

that means I would save around 6-7 euros per months, 72-84 euros per year.

Energy savers cost between 4 and 40 Euros. Let's take a price of 10 euros, to keep the math simple. It is a reasonable, optimistic price assumption, really, if you sort out cheap and bad imports fromChina, and the like.

I would need replacements in 8 or 9 light spots. That would cost 80-90 euros. All electricity bill savings from the first year: gone.

The test showed that the longevity of energy savers is massively overstimated, a complaint that has often been filed by other reports, too. many experts say you could be happy if they last 4 times as long as a regular light bulb (lesser assumptions are probably more realistic, m,any independent experts say). Ignore that the light quality and brightness both detoriate over the energy saver's lifespan (fact). That means the energy-savers last three years. Halogen bulbs (talkign by exoerience already last much longer than classical light bulbs), so compared to them energy savers again score less than the advertisement claims.

Let's assume, therefore, that two years after the first one, I save electricty bill costs. No, let's be optimistic, make it three years. Plus the first year when I buy them and save nothing. 240-270 euros saved over four years, that is a mean of 60 - 67,5 per year. That is roughly 5-6 euros per month .

I can live with paying 5 additional euros per month to have better, more comfortable light. really. I do not even feel in a month if there are 5 euros more or less. But I feel spending 90 Euros in one rush for new light.

that is jus my personal enerhgy and cost bilance. but ther eis more to it. the production of energy savers costs much more resources and energy than the production of classic bulb. and you need to add the energy costs for treating them in the contimnation process and electronic waste process when the have given up their life. You have to add the energy costs of those people using cars to bring them to recycle centres.

Finally, the EU tries to enforce eurppe-wide and even global legislation that absnthe use of mercury in all sorts of produzcts, due to its enormous toxic effect asnd difficult handling in environmental protection protocols. Just for this precious little energy saving light bulb, an exception to the rule - a massive excepotion to the rule! - has been agreed on even before the ban of mercury has been turned in valid laws. The ambition to implment this ban is still being brought forward. - Am I the only one seeing contradictions here?

My point is: energy savers probaly save you energy, but in no way the masisvely exaggerated promises of the advertisment can be fulfilled, if looking at the compelte picture. so far, perpsectives got tailored to small angles so that both the green and the Eurocrats and political opprtunists and the profit-interests of companies could be served. These light bulbs are not the big saviors they are beign sold as, and I assume their effect on climate issues will be unimportant, becasue electriicty hunger of western and golobal societies still goes up, and very drastically so.

there is only one explanation that makes sense, why energy savers have been enforced: since years Wetsern bulb manufacturers have given up to make profits with clasic bulbs, they left that to Asian manufacturers, who had made competition so ruinous that it was no longer worth it for Wetsern producers: classic bulbs are simpe, and thus cheap. Instead they invented this new, more expensive product, which promised more proft both by the individual deal, and the big replacmeent phase in the beginning. It's just that - people did not buy them. And so buying them and enforcing these profits has been lobbied for, to make it mandatory. Environmentalists can sell it as an ideologic success story as well, so they are as happy as business is.

[SteamWake]

- PC system
- TV, Video, HiFi
- kitchen devices, bread baker, stove, refrigerators..

You may have missed a few things here, Water heater, Air Conditioning, Clothes dryer Those three alone make up 80% of the average household energy consumption.

Then theres all the niggling little things that draw little power but are on all the time, clocks, your router, things like that.

Lighting actually makes up a small proportion of your energy budget. Of course if you go with energy saving lamps it can become an even smaller portion.

But when it comes to energy saving on lighting the biggest energy saver of all is that switch on the wall over there. Turn em off ;)

[Thomen]

You may have missed a few things here, Water heater, Air Conditioning, Clothes dryer Those three alone make up 80% of the average household energy consumption.



There are usualy are no AC's in privat homes in Germany. Heating, of course, but no AC except Window units or Mobile units, but even those are pretty rare.

[Skybird]

You may have missed a few things here, Water heater, Air Conditioning, Clothes dryer Those three alone make up 80% of the average household energy consumption.



No clothes dryer and no air conditioning here. Clothes dryers really are a waste. Why spending money on what the air does for you in three hours all for free? Water heaters are not as bad as one might think although they use a high Watt number, they run only for very short time, usually for less than a minute. To use electric stoves to heat water, fore example, would multiply the power consummation by several factors, for the same ammount of water being heated.

[Blacklight]

You may also want to try those high powered LED light bulbs. They're expensive, but use hardly any electricity and they last for a LONG LONG time.

[Skybird]

You may also want to try those high powered LED light bulbs. They're expensive, but use hardly any electricity and they last for a LONG LONG time.

Yes, LED, but currently LED bulbs on offer here (matching form and soize of classic bulbs so that you can use them in your old lamps) are equivalent to the brightness of around 25 Watt classic bulbs, and far less. So far they are not seriously sold as bulb replacements, but as colourful decoration lights. Also, white LED light years ago was blue-ish, now is extremely pure white, whle the blue-white ones also are being sold. They need to make their colour more matching to normal sunlight. They will become brighter (as bulbs), and cheaper, no doubt.

In torchlights, they are already great and superior to classic bulbs, I have such a torch myself, a Fenix P5. One third the size of a cigarette package - but turns the night into day at 80m. :) In torchlights, they are great, also in bicycle lights.

Phillips has a nice colour-changing "wellness" light, which makes nice colours indeed. But it is way to overpriced, and I do not buy stuff with "wellness" stamped on it for principal reasons. :lol: Also, who wants his living room turned into a colourful fairground stand?

However, LED is the future. In 15-20 years, nobody will talk of energy savers anymore. and the youngster will not even know that this political product of hysteria and lobbyism ever existed.

[SteamWake]

Water heaters are not as bad as one might think although they use a high Watt number, they run only for very short time, usually for less than a minute.

There you are mistaken.

Electric water heaters is probably the most in-efficent device in your home. Yes normally they only run for a few minutes but the problem is they run for a few minutes severl times an hour every hour of every day. Wether or not you are using it. After a nice long hot shower the water heater may run for up to an hour to recover. As they get older they become more in-efficent. No the design of holding a large quantity of hot water to be drawn on demand while effective is not efficent.

Some solutions are to go with gas and / or a 'tankless' on demand water heater.

Solar water heating boosters are also quite effective. They dramatically reduce the 'delta T' or the amount of temprature that the water has to rise from to acheive hot water.

I would have put a tankless system on my home but two things stop me.

First I dont have gas available to me.

An electric unit draws nearly 100amps (at 240V 1 phase). The service entry for my entire home is 100amps. In order to accomodate the tankless Id have to upgrade my service entry. A bit cost prohibitave.

But far and away the gas tankless water heater is the way to go if you can. Of course keep an eye on fuel prices.

On the LED's they are offered now in a wide spectrum of Kelvin tempratures from crystal clear white/blue (popular for jewlery display cases etc.) To warm white more or less precisley matching the color of an incandescent lamp.

What you say is true these are not available as retrofit replacement lamps. The vast majority are offered in specifically designed fixtures.

Hell they even do parking lot lights with them now.

[Skybird]

My wrong, I think I did not understand labels correctly. By water heater I thought you were referring to those electric kettles, you understand what I mean? what are they being called in English? They may have 800, 1200 or even 2000 Watt, but the latter heats half a litre in less than a minute. You meant the fixed wall or cellar-mounted water heaters, right? and there you are right, these things can be terribly expensive in energy consummation, even more so when attached to the house heating.

Eletric heating systems that store warmth during night to radiate it during daytime, are forbidden to be build anymore, at least in germany. Very long time ago, in the seventies we lived in a flat having such a system. My parents say it was madness already back then.

On retrofit LED lamps, I do not give up hope that these get improved, too. In fact retrofits are just at the very beginning of the design and quality developement, regarding colour and brigthnes. Individual, naked LEDs are already available in much better quality than being used in these bulb-replacements.

[SteamWake]

Yes Im talking about the typical 12-20 gallon storage water heater. Usually in the 2.5 kw range. The Number one power eater aside from your heating.

Heres an interisting site I acutally use for design from time to time.

http://www.oksolar.com/technical/consumption.html

[Gorduz]

For norway, sweden and finland the main problem is that the savings from changing bulbs will be significantly less that the ones used in the normal calculations. Most of the year (at least in Norway) the main use of power is heating. This means that the energy "wasted" by the old bulbs is just energy saved by the radiatiors and ovens. So the only result will be increased mercury emmisions (norway uses 90% hydro power so no savings there). Let countries decide what to do not some bourocrat in Brussels making policies adaped from some compromise which don't fit anyone.

[saltysplash]

Thankfully this latest piece of Euro trash wont affect me. Living on a boat the few electric lamps I have are all 12volt run from the ships batteries and additional lighting if needed is provided by parafin lamp.

[Tchocky]

That's one of the problems I have with CFL bulbs, there ain't no heat.
It's also an argument for replacing bulbs that give out more heat than light, though.